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Benti
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Posted: Sunday March 6th, 2005 03:32 |
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Europe colonized the whole world. But, the whole world gained its Independence almpst 50 years a go. Out of all the nations and races that liberated from colonialism, Africa remained back. I do not believe Europe or America did special thing to Africa. The colonization process was the same and the terms of liberation were the same.
India and China host almost half of the world population with all problems any nation can think of. Ethnic and cult politics are also there. Religion differences are seen clearly in India. Ideological massacre and wars were there in China. But, they overcame all odds. Is that true we blacks are inferior in genetical makeups? Why Africa failed abysmally? What went wrong? No hope is insight for our race. Is there any one who see some thing promising with our race? Do you think we can improve one day? What made you to think that way?
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Happiness
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Posted: Sunday March 6th, 2005 11:54 |
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Benti - I will indulge you (for now) in your questioning although my initial reaction was to shake my head in disbelief. Here's how I think we should start this discussion:
First of all, as you know, Africa is a continent and you are comparing "Africa" to countries: China and India. So why don't we start by being specific as to the African countries that you think "remained back".
Secondly, once you have chosen the African and Asian countries that had similar experience of colonisation etc...please post the GNP of each nation, the literacy rate, poverty rate, death and any other pertinent data that you think will justify your position that the African country "remained back"
Since I have no idea what you mean by "remaining back", I think this data will be helpful in understanding the conclusion you made that Africa " has failed abysmally"
Look forward to having a meaningul discussion with you.
Happines
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Ahmaad
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Posted: Sunday March 6th, 2005 13:34 |
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Benti:
Here's the biggest difference.......
Most of Asia experienced Communism which forced them to question their own culture and re-examine the values they and their ancestors practiced for generations.
This forced them to either modify them or disregard them altogether for the sake of progress.
Infact, this is what Europe did centuries ago with the Renaissance.
But besides Islam, niether Communism nor any other ideology that causes a people to question their culture, practices, and force them to change ever had any real impact on the continent of Africa.
Until Africa re-evaluates itself and finds a new culture then it will never progress.
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Sit al-Banal
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Posted: Sunday March 6th, 2005 14:36 |
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AFRICA IS A GOOD AS DEAD
She is like a gang-rape victim, that is still traped in the house with her abusers. She screams but WHO will come to her rescue. They take it in turns to have their fun with her.
Her children are too busy fighting with each other for the scraps on the floor of the rich, to help or care about her plight. The rapist wont kill her because she is more useful alive than dead. She isn't strong enough to kill her self, so Africa weeps in vain.
Say goodbye to you're mother Africa, someone else will enter the scene to have their turn anytime now.
HAPPY MOTHERS DAY 
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Shock_And_Awe
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Posted: Sunday March 6th, 2005 15:32 |
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Why Africa failed abysmally?
Africans...
Do you think we can improve one day?
No,Africa is just well...... dead.The best thing you all can do is find a "nicer" master like the Chinese which you all seem to think is cause for celebrations (or so you think now).
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JamBaruk
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Posted: Sunday March 6th, 2005 15:34 |
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Shock_And_Awe are you anti Africa or Anti Africans?
or both?
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iam_smartypants
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Posted: Sunday March 6th, 2005 15:41 |
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That is a very GOOD question!
Everytime I hear someone speak on the problems of Africa, its aways "we have currupt leaders"(this has been said with ALL the countries).
From what I've noticed Asians live in an enutrapenship (sp, sorry) society! Business ownership is ENCOURAGED! Asians tend to be less 'government depended!
From what I've seen (and I could be stretching it here), but they take business ownership as their key to survival. They do not WAIT until they get to the US to somehow "prove" how "smart" or how "family orientated" they are! They do all this IN Asia as well.
Now mind you there are A LOT of poor countries in Asia! However when you think of Asia you think of Japan, China and Korea!
Last edited on Sunday March 6th, 2005 15:45 by iam_smartypants
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Happiness
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Posted: Sunday March 6th, 2005 15:48 |
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EVERY nation is "government depended" (personally, I would have said "government dependent'...but to each his owm ) .
Leadership does not equal government. That shows you how much you know Miss smarty pant.
from what you've noticed...lol!
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safetyblitz
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Posted: Sunday March 6th, 2005 16:46 |
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Africa can make a serious come back. The thing is that they have to learn to manage their resources to make their economic position better in the world.
The growth of African countries is retarded now by foreign corporations. Although the "colonizers" left, they left their legacy in a lot of cases which still have a lot of the governments under control from the shadows. It just amazes me how corporations work in the shadows like that though.
The sad part is that you can apply this to America too if you think about it with all of the problems that we have with hunger and education....
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Sunday March 6th, 2005 17:05 |
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Benti wrote: Europe colonized the whole world. But, the whole world gained its Independence almpst 50 years a go. Out of all the nations and races that liberated from colonialism, Africa remained back. I do not believe Europe or America did special thing to Africa. The colonization process was the same and the terms of liberation were the same.
India and China host almost half of the world population with all problems any nation can think of. Ethnic and cult politics are also there. Religion differences are seen clearly in India. Ideological massacre and wars were there in China. But, they overcame all odds. Is that true we blacks are inferior in genetical makeups? Why Africa failed abysmally? What went wrong? No hope is insight for our race. Is there any one who see some thing promising with our race? Do you think we can improve one day? What made you to think that way?
Benti: can i join Happiness in requesting that you provide further examples/evidence of the above comments.. It would help if you could as Happiness suggests limit your efforts to the specific questions set by Happiness..
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Shock_And_Awe
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Posted: Sunday March 6th, 2005 17:32 |
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Shock_And_Awe are you anti Africa or Anti Africans?
or both?
@jambaruk
I'm Anti-Stupidity.
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Aryek
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Posted: Sunday March 6th, 2005 17:36 |
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Shock_And_Awe wrote:
Why Africa failed abysmally?
Africans...
Do you think we can improve one day?
No,Africa is just well...... dead.The best thing you all can do is find a "nicer" master like the Chinese which you all seem to think is cause for celebrations (or so you think now).
Exactly why are you on an African site when you hold such views Why not join the KKK, since that is where you belong. Don't come here spewing such rubbish and expect people to sit around and take your crap. If China is offering Africa an opportunity for advancement then why shouldn't they take it, what exactly do they have to lose? What can China do to Africa that Europeans haven't already done? You need to stop with this bitterness you have towards Africans, not all of us were involved in the enslavement of your ancestors, so get over it already.
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Shock_And_Awe
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Posted: Sunday March 6th, 2005 17:37 |
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@safetyblitz
The sad part is that you can apply this to America too if you think about it with all of the problems that we have with hunger and education.... SB
You are full of crap.America has a "problem" with education because some parents are dumb asses just like their kids.Hunger isn't a problem anywhere in America unless someone is purposefully starving themselves to death then who gives a f**k.Even our poor here are mostly big sloppy fat asses dressed in designer clothes like Baby Phat and Gucci driving around in a Navigator living on Section 8.
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Shock_And_Awe
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Posted: Sunday March 6th, 2005 17:55 |
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Why Africa failed abysmally?
Africans...
Do you think we can improve one day?
No,Africa is just well...... dead.The best thing you all can do is find a "nicer" master like the Chinese which you all seem to think is cause for celebrations (or so you think now).
Exactly why are you on an African site when you hold such views Why not join the KKK, since that is where you belong. Don't come here spewing such rubbish and expect people to sit around and take your crap. If China is offering Africa an opportunity for advancement then why shouldn't they take it, what exactly do they have to lose? What can China do to Africa that Europeans haven't already done? You need to stop with this bitterness you have towards Africans, not all of us were involved in the enslavement of your ancestors, so get over it already.
LOL!You people just don't GET IT.What kind of "men" need another man to come in and offer a man an "oppurtunity for advancement" in HIS own country?They aint goin do nothing but make money off your stupidity just like the white man. Africans are still going to be in the same position because your leaders are SOOO retarded that they have to call in everybody from the English Man to the Chinese Man to do sh*t a real man could do by his damned self. BTW I am pround of all my African,English,and Native American ancestors.I'm glad they came together all of them to get their freak on to create a beautiful vibrant intelligent man like myself and my kinfolk.I'm glad my ancestors were sold into slavery because I am Black AMERICAN.Where else could a not even 20 year old Black man be able to be a practical nurse making some $20 a hour,afford my own little place in one of the HOTTEST diverse spots in Chi,be able to go to college full time in Pol. Sci.,and hold down my 3.7 GPA in my bid to go to the top law school in Chicago.I've lived in the country and city now.I went fishing and hunting hung out with rednecks in my day didn't have a problem.I love this great land.I want to thank your people for selling my people. 
It's been a God send (literally lol).See you in America with the rest of the Africans (more coming over since slavery times.just happen to live in community that has one of highest percentage of you all in America)!Tell your brothers and sisters to COME ON OVER!We Black Americans for the most part might not talk to you but you all can drive your cabs and set your people up big time in the likes of Malawi.Immigration is lax and not enforceable.Just stay out of trouble with the Po-Po and you shouldn't have a problem.
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Aryek
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Posted: Sunday March 6th, 2005 18:06 |
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Benti wrote: Europe colonized the whole world. But, the whole world gained its Independence almpst 50 years a go. Out of all the nations and races that liberated from colonialism, Africa remained back. I do not believe Europe or America did special thing to Africa. The colonization process was the same and the terms of liberation were the same.
India and China host almost half of the world population with all problems any nation can think of. Ethnic and cult politics are also there. Religion differences are seen clearly in India. Ideological massacre and wars were there in China. But, they overcame all odds. Is that true we blacks are inferior in genetical makeups? Why Africa failed abysmally? What went wrong? No hope is insight for our race. Is there any one who see some thing promising with our race? Do you think we can improve one day? What made you to think that way?
Before you start harping on about Africa and their problems, why don't you take a look at other countries that were also colonized. Are any of the South American countries ,who experienced colonial rule, part of the World's super powers? And what about Southern Asian countries like Sri Lanka, are they doing much better than African countries like South Africa, Ghana, Nigeria and the like?
It is good that you are concerned about your people, but please don't lose site of the fact that Africa is not the only colonized place on Earth that is struggling. We have mostly ourselves to blame for the state of the continent today, but it doesn't help the situation when we hold such a narrow view of ourselves. We can't just look at the few countries that are now making some strides after colonization, forget about the many others who are in the same boat as us, and think that there is something inherently wrong with us because we are not doing as well as them. Every place on earth has it's unique problems and advantages that either help or impede it's growth. You cannot compare India to any African country and say that they were exactly alike during and after colonization, that is impossible. There are similarities but there are also many differences and Africa will have to find it's own way to solve its unique problems and find it's own path to advancement.
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dimoke
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Posted: Sunday March 6th, 2005 18:48 |
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Sit al-Banal wrote: AFRICA IS A GOOD AS DEAD
She is like a gang-rape victim, that is still traped in the house with her abusers. She screams but WHO will come to her rescue. They take it in turns to have their fun with her.
Her children are too busy fighting with each other for the scraps on the floor of the rich, to help or care about her plight. The rapist wont kill her because she is more useful alive than dead. She isn't strong enough to kill her self, so Africa weeps in vain.
Say goodbye to you're mother Africa, someone else will enter the scene to have their turn anytime now.
HAPPY MOTHERS DAY
You know what? The truth hurts but it needs to be told! So well said.......i despair at the slowness of progress in Africa.....its so frustrating, particularly with the older generation who have become too confortable in their conspiracy theories convos.....
I truly do not see any hope if we contunue in this destructive abuse of our Mother Land......We must do something.....NOW! Because like any victim, she will reach her limit one day.....
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Taysense
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Posted: Sunday March 6th, 2005 19:10 |
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Shock_And_Awe wrote: Shock_And_Awe are you anti Africa or Anti Africans?
or both?
@jambaruk
I'm Anti-Stupidity.
So how do you live with yourself?
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Shock_And_Awe
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Posted: Sunday March 6th, 2005 20:03 |
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I know you HATE my TRUTH that I tell on these boards.You are too WEAK to CHALLENGE me on the facts of the matter.I wll SHRED you with the truth.I live with my practical nursing job,my studio in one of the most cosmopolitan diverse areas in America,3.7 GPA at my university,and my future at the TOP law school in Chicago very well.
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Sunday March 6th, 2005 20:13 |
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| Shock & Awe: ok I want a piece of this...so why don't you start by telling us in intelligent terms the TRUTH as you see it? Last edited on Sunday March 6th, 2005 20:23 by Kunjufu
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Taysense
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Posted: Sunday March 6th, 2005 20:18 |
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Last edited on Sunday March 6th, 2005 20:33 by Taysense
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Shock_And_Awe
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Posted: Sunday March 6th, 2005 20:30 |
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@kunjufu
The Black man is responsible for his own destiny.No one else GIVES A f**k about our collective Black ASSES.Goddamnit!We always looking for the next "savior".This sh*t pisses ME off.I see this CRAP with all Black people like they NON BLACKS just "CARE" so much about us.I see this even with MY PEOPLE.They don't care and they just want to make MONEY.WHY SHOULD THEY CARE?If there is an HIV STD negative chick with a big booty bent over in front of me i'm going to bone her.What heterosexual unattached non holy roller man WOULDN'T?That's how I see this FOOLISHNESS about these China Men as the new "saviour" of the African.It's just like the poster said they are going to be bringing "oppurtunity" (YEAH RIGHT).That's what slavery and all that sh*t was about.MONEY and "oppurtunity" for NON AFRICANS!As long as Africans think that the goddamned NON AFRICANS are going to "save" the Africans then get the lube to get f**ked.
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Shock_And_Awe
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Posted: Sunday March 6th, 2005 20:36 |
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@taynese
(You deleted your post ) I'm proud of you about your medical school plans but you need to come to America.Canada sucks big hairy balls.If you're African especially,come to North Chicago in my community in the insular Rogers Park.We are one of the places with the highest percentage of Africans in America.There's all type of folk here from Iraq to Somalia.If there's a "paradise" anywhere in THIS world, this is it. Last edited on Sunday March 6th, 2005 20:40 by Shock_And_Awe
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Sunday March 6th, 2005 21:32 |
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Shock_And_Awe wrote: @kunjufu
The Black man is responsible for his own destiny.No one else GIVES A f**k about our collective Black ASSES.Goddamnit!We always looking for the next "savior".This sh*t pisses ME off.I see this CRAP with all Black people like they NON BLACKS just "CARE" so much about us.I see this even with MY PEOPLE.They don't care and they just want to make MONEY.WHY SHOULD THEY CARE?If there is an HIV STD negative chick with a big booty bent over in front of me i'm going to bone her.What heterosexual unattached non holy roller man WOULDN'T?That's how I see this FOOLISHNESS about these China Men as the new "saviour" of the African.It's just like the poster said they are going to be bringing "oppurtunity" (YEAH RIGHT).That's what slavery and all that sh*t was about.MONEY and "oppurtunity" for NON AFRICANS!As long as Africans think that the goddamned NON AFRICANS are going to "save" the Africans then get the lube to get f**ked.
Ok shock and Awe: this might actually amaze you I agree with much of what you say, when you say it properly..
I agree that Africans are not the priority for others right now..
I agree that only Africans can move Africa forward..
I agree that we cannot and should not be dependant on a 'saviour' to rescue us.
I also agree that a significant minority of Africans in America, in the UK and IN Africa are CONsumed by the greed of capitalism..
I also agree that China is not and should not be the saviour of Africa or its people.
I totally agree that Slavery was about the pursuit of money and dare i say it power too..
Shock I've actually said the above and more many many times before.. I also think that if you actually engage in respectful dialogue with many Africans living in the UK, Canada and Africa they would also agree with you on most if not all the above points..
So here's my direct point to you, why was it necassary for me to use my powers as a moderator just to get you to communicate normally with me.. Why is it that you find it difficult to talk to me respectfully like a brother.. I have no problems if you like G,W. Bush.. I have no problems if you are a republican.. I don't like these people, I don't respect them.. But while YOu are here I would deal with you as an African FIRST, why is it you come here and deal with DISRESPECT first?.. Just because I have different principles to you doesn't mean i cannot agree with you, or that I don't see your points.. Therefore you don't need to use the Idealogy of 'Shock and Awe' to make points just talk to us you might be surprised about how much we agree upon..
Like i said I think your view is interesting, I don't obviously agree with it, but I think their are opportunities to DEBATE these issue as Africans..the HARD truth is can you, will you?
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Aminata
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Posted: Sunday March 6th, 2005 21:50 |
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I respond in complete amazement..
Africa is a continent. One that was completely decimated by the brutal removal of its strongest people from their homeland. The brutality of enslavement continued for 400 years plus. Incidentally in the case of menfolk stolen from their homeland..does it not occur to you to wonder, who exactly was left behind to work the land, make it fertile again? Has it not occurred to you that because of this brutality, millions upon millions of black people do not know which African country they are from, much less their name or lineage? Or even that, gold, precious metals, materials etc were also stolen from Africa at the same time as, its people were being torn from their homeland? Bear all this in mind, and then ask your question again.
I make no excuse for corrupt government in Africa, because it does exist. But do not bypass the legacy of the slavemasters who decimated an entire continent to the extent that people do not know their history, or their names (unlike other 'colonized' nations). Thats one helluva situation to bounce back from.
Incidentally, of the other nations who have 'moved forward'..are you comparing their experience to the Africa experience?
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Aminata
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Posted: Sunday March 6th, 2005 21:58 |
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lmao..criticism of Africa, hmm...
No, Africa is not perfect. But as overcrowded, poverty stricken (in some areas) as it is, I love it when I am there. My kids move around safely, you see other kids going about their daily business..dont hear of paedophilia when I am there. Never been a victim of crime there..but, I have been a victim of crime in London.
I live in the western world, worry about gun crime and am scared when my kids are out late evening. Hell...my youngest now, wouldnt dream of letting her even visit the shops for me in this mad land.
So no, Africa is not perfect. But when talking of achievement then yes, more material gain for some of us in the western world, but it isnt without its problems..no country/continent is. And every government is corrupt. If you an African in the diaspora right now there a whole heap of issues affecting you. We all want the Motherland to be perfect but in the real world that is not to be, in just the same way that no nation is perfect.
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Posted: Sunday March 6th, 2005 23:38 |
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One that was completely decimated by the brutal removal of its strongest people from their homeland.
That is a lie.The Africans had been selling each other for millenia.It was only when the white man took over that Africa "went to the dogs".That's when the missionaries came in with the bible,taught you how to pray with your eyes closed and when you opened your eyes your land was gone.What you all fail to realize is that the incredible karma of these acts perpetuated by racial brothers and sisters million fold over all over had a DESTABILIZING affect on the collective uncouncious of the African.The African learned not to trust the African.That is why you all see my idea of a "race first" policy as ABSURD when I talk about the CURE to tribalist millions dead slaughters.It is only the truth.If you don't know it now then you NEVER will.You hope to "gain ground" by LAMBASTING the Black American but it's not going to help you as long as these festering sores remain on the hearts and minds of Africa.
The brutality of enslavement continued for 400 years plus. Incidentally in the case of menfolk stolen from their homeland..does it not occur to you to wonder, who exactly was left behind to work the land, make it fertile again?
That is a LIE.They were selling MILLIONS and MILLIONS of their racial kinsmen for MILLENIA.What do those "wise" and "noble" Chiefs have for it?They sold flesh for gin,mirrors,used crackaman lice ridden hats,and textiles.Now THAT is PATHETIC.Where was the great "African uprising" of the Black Africans against Black Africans selling Black Africans???That's right....There WAS NONE.IN FACT,the African chiefs and their subjects held on to slavery until the 1880's and they were the biggest protestors against the abolition of trans-atlantic slavery.Can you imagine in 2005,a bushel of Africans being sold for a fleet of Mercedes Benzes?That would've BEEN SO if it wasn't for the West/America.Any decent man saw that PATHETIC display and that's "ironically" when you all got TOOK OVER.This is a DOG EAT DOG,world.Grow some BALLS and GET A GRIP,freakazoids.
Has it not occurred to you that because of this brutality, millions upon millions of black people do not know which African country they are from, much less their name or lineage?
I am glad my ancestors ended up here.I can trace most of my people back to Africa,England,and America.I don't know where my ancestors from Africa came from specifically and I don't think it's relevant.I am Black American.
Or even that, gold, precious metals, materials etc were also stolen from Africa at the same time as, its people were being torn from their homeland? Bear all this in mind, and then ask your question again.
You want the truth.Can you HANDLE IT?The TRUTH is that it still goes on today.Africans still sell each other for crumbs off the multinationalists' plate.That why it's so easy for MILLIONS and MILLIONS to SELF DESTRUCT to "de man's" TUNE.They tell us not even to buy diamonds because it "hurts" Africans..Is it really the fault of the CONSUMER that the PRODUCER has to hack limbs for the PRODUCT?You guys are taking this thread into sanctioned lunacy a la The Congo/etc.
I make no excuse for corrupt government in Africa, because it does exist. But do not bypass the legacy of the slavemasters who decimated an entire continent to the extent that people do not know their history, or their names (unlike other 'colonized' nations). Thats one helluva situation to bounce back from.
The African are no different in that aspect from the Indian or Chinese.They might not have started writing it down until fairly recently but still have their own sh*t.You need to stop lying.I live in the one of the places that has the highest percentage of Africans in the US.I don't see them walking around called Bob Smith.The problem is that what you got it is STAGNANT and OUT OF THE TIMES i'm just being real with you.The ways that worked for your people 10,000 years ago is not going to work NOW.You all need to reinvent yourselves.Stop looking for the chink and cracka to "bail you out" (in other words:GET UP OFF THAT sh*t) of the responsiblity of being a REAL MAN that takes control of his destiny.Do yo own sh*t.Stop thinking that just because a White man aint involved it aint nothing.Get up off that muti magic crap and vodoo mess that has no basis in REALITY.In fact become a Deist and free yourself of MAN MADE religion ALTOGETHER.Africans need RATIONALITY and REFLECTION.Form some "secret societes" with big money for benefit of the COMMON people like every other people do/did for their own.Do SOMETHIN....Moaning about it isn't going to make the offender stop raping you.
Incidentally, of the other nations who have 'moved forward'..are you comparing their experience to the Africa experience?
If you "compare" then you see where you all "went wrong" over there in Africa.
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Posted: Monday March 7th, 2005 00:29 |
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Shock_And_Awe wrote:
That is a lie.The Africans had been selling each other for millenia.It was only when the white man took over that Africa "went to the dogs".That's when the missionaries came in with the bible,taught you how to pray with your eyes closed and when you opened your eyes your land was gone.What you all fail to realize is that the incredible karma of these acts perpetuated by racial brothers and sisters million fold over all over had a DESTABILIZING affect on the collective uncouncious of the African.The African learned not to trust the African.That is why you all see my idea of a "race first" policy as ABSURD when I talk about the CURE to tribalist millions dead slaughters.It is only the truth.If you don't know it now then you NEVER will.You hope to "gain ground" by LAMBASTING the Black American but it's not going to help you as long as these festering sores remain on the hearts and minds of Africa.
That is a LIE.They were selling MILLIONS and MILLIONS of their racial kinsmen for MILLENIA.What do those "wise" and "noble" Chiefs have for it?They sold flesh for gin,mirrors,used crackaman lice ridden hats,and textiles.Now THAT is PATHETIC.Where was the great "African uprising" of the Black Africans against Black Africans selling Black Africans???That's right....There WAS NONE.IN FACT,the African chiefs and their subjects held on to slavery until the 1880's and they were the biggest protestors against the abolition of trans-atlantic slavery.Can you imagine in 2005,a bushel of Africans being sold for a fleet of Mercedes Benzes?That would've BEEN SO if it wasn't for the West/America.Any decent man saw that PATHETIC display and that's "ironically" when you all got TOOK OVER.This is a DOG EAT DOG,world.Grow some BALLS and GET A GRIP,freakazoids.
Shock and Awe: Forgive me but your analysis of slavery is to say the least simplistic and completely wrong...
first of all..yes it is true that before Europeans arrived Africans did take slaves, and it is also true that some Africans during slavery sold slaves to Europeans.. However for you to now make a like for like comparison with the model of slavery adopted by Africans to that of the European model is a dirty analysis..
Here's a simple test to prove what i'm saying, I challenge you to bring forth any information in any guise that points to an African country or nation that did the following:
- Depopulating another African country or any other country on a comparitive scale to what the Europeans did..
- Treated its slaves as Cattle or property.
- That removed the names, culture, identity of its Slaves.
WEB du Bios..covered this issue in his well reaseached and historically factual account of Africa pre slavery.. He talks about how Slaves taken by rival tribes were ACTUALLY treated.. He talks about the type of lives they led under captivity.. He also talks about how the Slaves were taken by other tribes and he liken it to condition akin to POW..not as you ASSume Cattle.. Now if you have credible evidence that suggest he was wrong or I'm wrong I'd be glad if you could share it with us?
You then went on to talk about African Kings giving away our people for worthless trinkets, and alluding to how stupid they must have been to fall for such tricks.. I think the word you used was 'pathetic'.. You know 20/20 hindsight is a great thing, especially when you look back whilst standing in the 21st century..
However your simplistic reimagining of what took place lends more to Hollywood than it does to reality.. Perhaps you ought to read THomas Pakenham (white author btw) who wrote the 'Scramble for Africa' in his 700 pgs..he outline with pictures BTW how the Europeans behaved in the Congo, Zimbabwe, Azania and other parts of Africa.. As i remember it, his historical and factual telling of the events..based by the way on records taken from the British Museam, personal recording of Missionaries and Uk goverment records.. Talked about how these chiefs have the option take the trinkets or take a bullet..and most cases they didn't even get that option..
If you get hold of this book please turn to Chapter 21..where he tell just how Rhodesia came into existence, how Cecil Rhodes and his cohorts slaugtered just about everything that moved.. you could also read Charpter 32 'the severed hands' this tell how that benevolent Belgian King Leopold.Treated the Inhabitants of the Congo..To call it Slavery would be unkind to the ideals of Slavery..
Sorry Shock & Awe.. but you need to come with something harder than a wet dream and a mouth full of rhetoric..on this issue. This is not a place where ill concieved thoughts and half arsed analysis based on conjecture and nothing else will survive.. Now i've given varifiable facts.. you can check them yourself and return if you like.. But please do go shouting the odds based on mis-information taught in kindergarten, please do better than that!!!
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Posted: Monday March 7th, 2005 01:08 |
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Shock and Awe: Forgive me but your analysis of slavery is to say the least simplistic and completely wrong...
That is your opinion.
Depopulating another African country or any other country on a comparitive scale to what the Europeans did..
Africans "depopulated" themselves when they sold each other.It's easy to say "it was just dem chiefs and 'em" but you all are just as guilty as the Germans that killed the Jews.
Treated its slaves as Cattle or property.
Ask DRISSA and MILLIONS OF OTHERS THAT LABOR AS CHATTEL SLAVES IN LIKES OF IVORY COAST IN 2005!Research "maid markets nigeria". Matter of fact google "Drissa and Ivory Coast" to see mark of the whip upon a Black African held by Black Africans in 2005.
That removed the names, culture, identity of its Slaves.
There wasn't NOTHING worth losing.The Black Americans created something supeior and more poweful than the African,European,and Native American could ever come up with independently.
WEB du Bios..covered this issue in his well reaseached and historically factual account of Africa pre slavery.. He talks about how Slaves taken by rival tribes were ACTUALLY treated.. He talks about the type of lives they led under captivity.. He also talks about how the Slaves were taken by other tribes and he liken it to condition akin to POW..not as you ASSume Cattle.. Now if you have credible evidence that suggest he was wrong or I'm wrong I'd be glad if you could share it with us?
Dubois' was a liar and his subjects in this study were not CREDIBLE.I look no farther than the modern dan Africa to know that Africans did indeed brutalize Africans in the same manner as Europeans.What Euro has ever hacked out the private parts of an African while they were still alive to make "muti magic" like they do in Africa TODAY?
You then went on to talk about African Kings giving away our people for worthless trinkets, and alluding to how stupid they must have been to fall for such tricks.. I think the word you used was 'pathetic'.. You know 20/20 hindsight is a great thing, especially when you look back whilst standing in the 21st century..
Yeah,what a great EXCUSE.I'm glad my ancestors ended up here.I applaud your people for selling your best and brightest.I couldn't imagine living somewhere not up to an American standard.
However your simplistic reimagining of what took place lends more to Hollywood than it does to reality.. Perhaps you ought to read THomas Pakenham (white author btw) who wrote the 'Scramble for Africa' in his 700 pgs..he outline with pictures BTW how the Europeans behaved in the Congo, Zimbabwe, Azania and other parts of Africa.. As i remember it, his historical and factual telling of the events..based by the way on records taken from the British Museam, personal recording of Missionaries and Uk goverment records.. Talked about how these chiefs have the option take the trinkets or take a bullet..and most cases they didn't even get that option..
That's only because you were sold each other for MILLENIA and was the loudest oens crying when the West/America ended the slave trade.That's "ironically" when you all were TAKEN OVER.
If you get hold of this book please turn to Chapter 21..where he tell just how Rhodesia came into existence, how Cecil Rhodes and his cohorts slaugtered just about everything that moved.. you could also read Charpter 32 'the severed hands' this tell how that benevolent Belgian King Leopold.Treated the Inhabitants of the Congo..To call it Slavery would be unkind to the ideals of Slavery..
It was all good when you were selling your brothers and sisters though of different tribes for millenia but when the white man come in then it's a "problem".I call it reaping what you sowed.
Sorry Shock & Awe.. but you need to come with something harder than a wet dream and a mouth full of rhetoric..on this issue. This is not a place where ill concieved thoughts and half arsed analysis based on conjecture and nothing else will survive.. Now i've given varifiable facts.. you can check them yourself and return if you like.. But please do go shouting the odds based on mis-information taught in kindergarten, please do better than that!!!
You are mighty premature because your argument has failed to stand up to critical analysis.I hope this isn't the best you can do.
Last edited on Monday March 7th, 2005 01:25 by Shock_And_Awe
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Posted: Monday March 7th, 2005 01:30 |
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Dark_midget wrote: Africans "depopulated" themselves when they sold each other.It's easy to say "it was just dem chiefs and 'em" but you all are just as guilty as the Germans that killed the Jews
Yes you are right. Africans are guilty of gang killings, drug warfare, prostitution, high unemployment among african-americans, rampant hiv infections, premature killings of the notorious B.I.G, tupac, malcolm x and countless others, lee malvo and muhammed allen's serial killings, 44% of deathrow inmates in America being african-american etc. Africa take responsibility for its own problems and so should black america.
The Black Americans created something supeior and more poweful than the African,European,and Native American could ever come up with independently.
Justify your claim of Black american superiority over Black africans and blacks elsewhere. I believe there is more to life than hip hop/rap, basketball, american football and white/caucasian obsessed Micheal Jackson.
That's only because you were sold each other for MILLENIA
Someone needs to educated this ignorant african american at this junture. For your information, millennium means a period of one thousand years. Africans sold each other into slavery for one thousand years? Did your whitey american master taught you that in school? Listen, if you want to make comment, i suggest that you breathe in/out prior to making one and stop making gangbanger like comment for once in your lifetime.
Last edited on Monday March 7th, 2005 01:49 by obal85
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Posted: Monday March 7th, 2005 01:48 |
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@UbbaDubba
Africans are guilty Everything that has happened in America to Black Americans stems from the GREAT BETRAYL of Africans SELL-ing out Africans of gang killings Million People raping and Limb hacking Massacares in Africa, drug warfare Millions and Millions dead raped and killed in the limb hackng baby raping pygmy eating massacares in Africa prostitution Like the Nigerian women in Edo City that got THREW OUT of italy and caused "national embarrasssment" to the Italians for selling their ASSES., high unemployment among african-americans Those sorry negros that don't take advantage of oppurtunities are responsible.I wouldn't worry too much about them though they are making it.They aren't STARVING to death like your people.In fact the poor person is more likely to be a fat sloppy ass driving a Navigator rather than the rich person., rampant hiv infections Get real...Africa is soon to be depopulated by Aids.Why do you think your men are raping the infants until their intestines bulge to "cure" themselves of AIDS., premature killings of the notorious B.I.G, tupac, They were both THUGS malcolm x He knew Elijah Muhammad was a fascist that saw murder as the way to solve disputes.It's unfortunate that Malcolm was killed but when you lay down with dogs you get fleas. lee malvo and muhammed allen's serial killings How about FANWELL KHUMALO?The moster that raped over 40 little girls and infants.The child and/or woman that is raped every 10 seconds in darkest Africa., 44% of deathrow inmates in America being african-american The 100% of people that hack themselves to death and get PIMPED OUT by foreigners in their OWN country for his CRUMBS.The 100% of people that think they are "hurting" The West by finding in a new master in the China Men when we all know DAMNED WELL the The West/America is still going to be big pimping your asses.We are ALL LAUGHING at you.
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Posted: Monday March 7th, 2005 01:54 |
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I asked you to justify your claim of african american superiority complex over africans and blacks elsewhere and you came up with bollocks as usual. Are africans responsible for gang killings, drug warfare, black american deathrow inmates and other vices in black american ghettoes?
YES OR NO
Midget wrote: The 100% of people that think they are "hurting" The West by finding in a new master in the China Men when we all know DAMNED WELL the The West/America is still going to be big pimping your asses.We are ALL LAUGHING at you.
Leave china out of it as its not the fault of the chinese that you personally feel inferior to the whiteys. Dont get the chinese involved in this subject and answer the above question. Last edited on Monday March 7th, 2005 02:02 by obal85
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Posted: Monday March 7th, 2005 02:12 |
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I could care less about those criminal animals.They aren't my "kind of people".They could all kill each other for I care.Whatever they do, Africa will still be a giant p***y just waiting to be f**ked that has to call in everybody from the English man to the Chinese man to build up your own stinking hellhole countries where the children frequently have their genitals removed while alive to make "muti magic" and babies raped by wild fiends to cure themselves of AIDS until their intesties bulge. Last edited on Monday March 7th, 2005 02:20 by Shock_And_Awe
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Posted: Monday March 7th, 2005 02:38 |
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Shock_And_Awe wrote:
@safetyblitz
The sad part is that you can apply this to America too if you think about it with all of the problems that we have with hunger and education.... SB
You are full of crap.America has a "problem" with education because some parents are dumb asses just like their kids.Hunger isn't a problem anywhere in America unless someone is purposefully starving themselves to death then who gives a f**k.Even our poor here are mostly big sloppy fat asses dressed in designer clothes like Baby Phat and Gucci driving around in a Navigator living on Section 8.
Full of crap? Where do you live in a rich community? LOL That sounds like something a white person would say. Get out and take a real look at a black community and look at the poor, not the ghetto fabulous and you will see the truth.
Well since you say that, let me give you situations using examples from my city posted in the newspaper here in a city that is half black and half white....
Our city/county has two different school systems. Memphis and Shelby County. Shelby COunty is predominatly white, Memphis is predominantly black. All of the high schools in Memphis are Title One high schools in Memphis except 4. There are over 40 high schools in the city. Title One means that the school itself is having problems with students passing the National Acheivement Test. None of the County schools are on Title One. People actually sneak their kids into the county school system. Why? Because it is a proven fact that the educational standards are better. Nothing to do with the Black and white areas, it has to do with how it is run, where the county focuses on education and the city focuses on making money.
True some parents do not help their kids study and remain on them to pursue their studies, but when I have personally witnessed the difference between what is taught in the county and the city after my area was annexed by the city and my kids were being taught by city teachers the same thing they were being taught in the county the year before, what does that tell you? America has a problem. Many parents across the country I have talked to white, black and other, say the same thing. Why do you think that you have seen a large increase in black parents getting their kids into private schools?
Education should be better, but until our cities stop opting to make the professional sports teams more comfortable by building them new arenas and subsidizing new office buildings for corporations, the money for education will not be there like it should. No child left behind is good but without strong federal enforcement, it will fall to the wayside in a few years.
As far as hunger, man I take it you have not seen some of the ghettos were people stay and are hungry. I mean how far do you think $300 worth of groceries/foodstamps go in a month? Have you ever been grocery shopping? Heck my family spends close to $800/mo. How do I know? Because sometimes I do the shopping. So I can imagine the many nights that some families go hungry on the "luxury" of food stamps. Let us not include welfare which has to be used for clothing kids that grow like weeds, a cheap car that you are trying to keep running, rent, utilities, and other things that are needed when running a household.
I am not talking about the underclass that work for around $16-$22 thousand a year that cheat the government and get welfare and foodstamps along with their paychecks aka the ghetto fabs, I am talking about the dirt poor.
Or even better how the newspaper here reported that one of the zipcodes in my city has a higher infant death rate than Iran, Vietnam, and El Salvador ( http://www.commercialappeal.com/mca/local_news/article/0,1426,MCA_437_3586409,00.html
). Should tha happen in a country that is supposed to be the richest nation in the world? Like I said we have problems too. Whether you chose to acknowledge them or not.
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Posted: Monday March 7th, 2005 03:08 |
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@safetyblitz
The sad part is that you can apply this to America too if you think about it with all of the problems that we have with hunger and education.... SB
You are full of crap.America has a "problem" with education because some parents are dumb asses just like their kids.Hunger isn't a problem anywhere in America unless someone is purposefully starving themselves to death then who gives a f**k.Even our poor here are mostly big sloppy fat asses dressed in designer clothes like Baby Phat and Gucci driving around in a Navigator living on Section 8. S_A_A
Full of crap? Where do you live in a rich community? LOL That sounds like something a white person would say.
I'm not "rich".I just happen to live in North Chicago in a place called Rogers Park that is one the most diverse beautiful places in the WORLD.I have had the American experience in my day.I have lived in the city hunted went fishing with my kinfolk and rednecks down when I grew up in the country.
Get out and take a real look at a black community and look at the poor, not the ghetto fabulous and you will see the truth.
The American poor are "poor" because they are BUMS and LOSERS.There is no one blocking these morons from an education or trade.
Our city/county has two different school systems. Memphis and Shelby County. Shelby COunty is predominatly white, Memphis is predominantly black. All of the high schools in Memphis are Title One high schools in Memphis except 4. There are over 40 high schools in the city. Title One means that the school itself is having problems with students passing the National Acheivement Test. None of the County schools are on Title One. People actually sneak their kids into the county school system. Why? Because it is a proven fact that the educational standards are better. Nothing to do with the Black and white areas, it has to do with how it is run, where the county focuses on education and the city focuses on making money.
That's because the Memphis school administrators are IDIOTS.They too SPINELESS to throw those thugs and whores disrupting the class the f**k OUT so the students about somethin can learn.If they didn't have to spend all that money keeping the unparented animals under control then they would be able to focus on education.
s do not help their kids study and remain on them to pursue their studies, but when I have personally witnessed the difference between what is taught in the county and the city after my area was annexed by the city and my kids were being taught by city teachers the same thing they were being taught in the county the year before, what does that tell you? America has a problem. Many parents across the country I have talked to white, black and other, say the same thing. Why do you think that you have seen a large increase in black parents getting their kids into private schools?
So WHAT?My people have been going to private schools for generations.You people act like just sending your bad ass kids to school is enough.If you aint doing NOTHING with them at home then don't get mad when they turn out to be a WALKING TURD selling dope on the corner.
ducation should be better, but until our cities stop opting to make the professional sports teams more comfortable by building them new arenas and subsidizing new office buildings for corporations, the money for education will not be there like it should. No child left behind is good but without strong federal enforcement, it will fall to the wayside in a few years.
The GOVERNMENt is not going to "solve" the SELF INFLICTED problems of Black AMerica.you people need to get off your lazy HAMS and SUPPLEMENT that in school stuff with something educational instead of allowing your OUT OF ORDER children to watch those RETARDED crap videos everyday after school.
er, man I take it you have not seen some of the ghettos were people stay and are hungry. I mean how far do you think $300 worth of groceries/foodstamps go in a month? Have you ever been grocery shopping? Heck my family spends close to $800/mo. How do I know? Because sometimes I do the shopping. So I can imagine the many nights that some families go hungry on the "luxury" of food stamps. Let us not include welfare which has to be used for clothing kids that grow like weeds, a cheap car that you are trying to keep running, rent, utilities, and other things that are needed when running a household.
My family is not on WELFARE.For any person to be on "welfare" is a DISGRACE.The ONLY people that should be on "welfare" is the ELDERLY and HANDICAPPED.The rest of you SORRY ABLE BODIED HAMS should be somewhere working instead of sucking the "gubment tit" like the BIG BABIES you are.
ing about the underclass that work for around $16-$22 thousand a year that cheat the government and get welfare and foodstamps along with their paychecks aka the ghetto fabs, I am talking about the dirt poor.
Poor people are poor in America because they are SORRY LAZY HAMS.
even better how the newspaper here reported that one of the zipcodes in my city has a higher infant death rate than Iran, Vietnam, and El Salvador ( http://www.commercialappeal.com/mca/local_news/article/0,1426,MCA_437_3586409,00.html
That's because those ghetto hooligans smoke crack while they're pregnant and shoot dope.Let's not forget fighting with other "baby momma's" is very stressful on a fetus.
). Should tha happen in a country that is supposed to be the richest nation in the world? Like I said we have problems too. Whether you chose to acknowledge them or not.
It's BOUND to happen as long as people behave like ANIMALS.
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DSP
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Posted: Monday March 7th, 2005 03:40 |
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Another interesting topic. Might have to get the popcorn for this one.
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Captain_Fact
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Posted: Monday March 7th, 2005 05:26 |
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During the 50s, India, decolonised African nations and China went 3 seperate ways.
China was broken up by colonialism, but was never completely colonised, during the 50s and ww2 it consisted of warlords with no real ideals whom extorted their populace. Influence from the soviet union triggerred a power shift after ww2 causing pro-communist warlords to gain power and unite china under Mao's regime. The subsequent totalitarian regime was even more inefficient than the patchwork of military dictatorships for a decade or so. Ever since, China's government has become increasingly more united and more representative. During the cultural revolution China was as poor as Africa, as it's government became less corrupt it began to progress and stabilise and overtake Africa.
India was united by colonialism and was completely colonised. It's state was practically run by British merchants, however it had a native governing body which was strongly aligned with India's host population as they were their representatives and held little power over affairs and thus were not corrupted by them. After ww2 Britain didn't have the military strength or state of mind to want to maintain it's grip on India using their brutal methods and in these new conditions Mahatma Gandhi who had been campaigning for decades for an end to colonialism managed to finally persuade the British to leave.
India used to consist of many small city states, like the middle east and europe with the occasional war, but no serious breach of the peace. For a period the British and other colonial powers turned them against each other as they did in Africa, except in this case only 1 colonial power wrestled control over them. In Africa several colonial powers took control over different swathes of land and gave them independance under a military dictatorship which supported european merchants. They created borders which split ancient African nations and occasionally turned the different nations within their borders against each other, so maintaining control wouldn't cost them. They would just sell weapons to a bunch of thugs and send them out to deal with insubordinate groups. These thugs would form the backbone of many of the tyrants in Africa today. Decolonisation was simply the swapping of one group of dictators for another. In the past decade the majority of African nations have regained their freedom, but many are still under the grip of gunmen who sell out Africa's resources so they can buy weapons and stay in power. Uganda, Ethiopia, Somalia and Zimbabwe.
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azania
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Posted: Monday March 7th, 2005 07:56 |
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Benti wrote: Europe colonized the whole world. But, the whole world gained its Independence almpst 50 years a go. Out of all the nations and races that liberated from colonialism, Africa remained back. I do not believe Europe or America did special thing to Africa. The colonization process was the same and the terms of liberation were the same.
India and China host almost half of the world population with all problems any nation can think of. Ethnic and cult politics are also there. Religion differences are seen clearly in India. Ideological massacre and wars were there in China. But, they overcame all odds. Is that true we blacks are inferior in genetical makeups? Why Africa failed abysmally? What went wrong? No hope is insight for our race. Is there any one who see some thing promising with our race? Do you think we can improve one day? What made you to think that way?
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Its got more to do with the cold war than anything else. Look at the tiger economies in Asia and look at their location. Most if not all the tiger economies are located next to powerful communist countries. S.Korea, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan etc.
Furthermore after WW2, Japan was rebuilt as a model to counter newly communist China. Ditto Taiwan and Hong Kong. It was in the interest of the capitalist world to prove that their economic and ideology was better than communism. These things dont happen in isolation. If the powerful western countries want to allow any country to get out of poverty, they will. They just dont have any interest in allowing african countries to escape debt and poverty.
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Benti
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Posted: Monday March 7th, 2005 14:47 |
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Yes! it is true some type of assistance were given to the Asians due to ideological disputes. But, that alone can not develop a country. I have some reservation on this as China had little support from any one. Soviets were not in good terms with China as China and Yugoslavia were not under international proletarian that was led by Russia. There is another ingredient we luck as a race to achieve what the rest achieved. It seems Africans are totally corrupt and deeply divided. Ethnic conspiracy and dictatorial leadership contributed to African down fall. We have 52 thick heads that are currently leading 52 nation states who failed to figure the way out. They are only good in surviving on power by any means. As to survive they are yielding to foreign demands and looting the little Africa got. Swize Bank prospered as a result of what Band, Haile Silase, Mabutu, Abacha and other dictators looted African money and those who followed them did exactly what their former leaders did and deposited great amount of money for bad days. Millions of africans lost their lives in Congo, Mozambique, Angola, Somalia, Ethiopia, Sudan, Seraleon, Liberia, Rewanda, Burundi, as to satisfy war lords demand for power. We have no idea how many will follow the above in near future. Such killings has nothing to do with out side forces as trigers were pulled by fellow Africans on their own people.
Today Africa is infected by short sighted leaders from east to west, north to South. Even the promising land of South Africa is joining them. ANC members are joining economically the minority whites. The majority of South Africans are left in the sun to dry. No hope in horizon. Africa luck some thing important to achieve what it lucked. That is not the problem of our racial enemies. It is our problem to look to what we luck.
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The Watcher
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Posted: Monday March 7th, 2005 15:30 |
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Benti
More rhetoric and poking of that beehive.
Happiness has asked you some pertinent and pointed questions and your avoiding them has made me HIGHLY suspicious.
Especially when you say things like
There is another ingredient we lack as a race to achieve what the rest achieved. It seems Africans are totally corrupt and deeply divided.
Dont bother responding to me, that is further avoidance. Instead please answer Happiness' questions. QUANTITIVELY.
First of all, as you know, Africa is a continent and you are comparing "Africa" to countries: China and India. So why don't we start by being specific as to the African countries that you think "remained back".
Secondly, once you have chosen the African and Asian countries that had similar experience of colonisation etc...please post the GNP of each nation, the literacy rate, poverty rate, death and any other pertinent data that you think will justify your position that the African country "remained back"
Since I have no idea what you mean by "remaining back", I think this data will be helpful in understanding the conclusion you made that Africa " has failed abysmally"
Look forward to having a meaningul discussion with you.
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safetyblitz
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Posted: Monday March 7th, 2005 15:56 |
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Shock and Awe
Shock
THere were a few times that I thought that you spoke with honest and intelligent answers, but now I don't think you have any and when you don't or someone disagrees with you, you take the easy way out. Your racial remarks at first were directed at Africans, and I honestly thought that they would correct you and you would see some light from other black people. I have to admit I was dead wrong on that assumption.
I mean what has you living in a nice section of Chicago has thrown your mind off of the other people in this country. The ignorance you show towards knowing about them tells me that you only know of them by what you see in passing. Not sure what you meant from describing the rednecks that you hunted and fished with because that only guarantees to a lot of us that you are a white guy. No self respecting black man would ever call another black person an animal. No matter how mad he got. True he might call them n*gga or muthf*cker but never would he describe a black child as an animal. Plus when you wrote,
"So WHAT? My people have been going to private schools for generations.You people act like just sending your bad ass kids to school is enough.If you aint doing NOTHING with them at home then don't get mad when they turn out to be a WALKING TURD selling dope on the corner"
Just proved to me that you are white beyond a shadow of a doubt.
The thing is you came on here claiming black, so what the hell are you gonna do about the situation in BLack AMerica? Bashing the working poor of America and downing Africa is not doing sh*t. Other than that you are on here wasting your time.
As far as the education system, if it is sooo correct, why would "your" people need to send their kids to private school? I mean if public school teaches so great, seems as if "your" people would be there too because it is free and they are getting the same thing, if your "logic" holds true right?
Still on the subject of education, I never mentioned anything about thugs or hoodlums in classrooms that you refer to as "animals". I mentioned curriculum. Private school curriculums keep up with the times where public school's curriculums are usually stagnant. The County is just able to do a better job because it is smaller and has an easier time managing its schools. Plus they are able to send their administrative staff to be educated more as well since they do not have a larger system. Again instead of looking at the facts, you chose to respond in complete with insults about black americans, after you claimed to be one, but now describe black americans as you people.
Describing the poor as bums and losers? LOL All it takes is for you to get sued, file bankruptcy because you did not have the money for the lawsuit, lose your job, and have an illness eat up your life savings and guess what? You would be piss poor too. Only an over priviledged child would not see the poor, because I am sure that his parents would know the situations that could lead to catastrophe.
The thing is that there are actually things blocking the "BUMS" as you call them from grabbing part in the trade of America. If your parent made a few mistakes when they were young and they had to work menial jobs, which means most likely they had to stay in a neighborhood where the school system is not up to par with the rest of the world, that child is not going to be armed with the same education as other people around the world. SO that child is not going to be able to compete for jobs on the same level as a kid with a better education. That is just a fact of life.
The thing is you say it like it is a black thing, but if you have ever been to the poorer white towns of West Virginia or Iowa, you would see a lot of white people too that are poor and are going through the same thing as you claim all of "us" people are going through. Poverty in the US expands farther than the big city and education is not the same anywhere in the country, IF you ever sat foot outside of Rogers Park and looked and I mean really looked at the people you would understand.
Damn you steadily want to put Obal down as ignorant, but damn with this coming from the mouth of a black AMerican, I really cannot tell the difference between the two of you now. I used to respect you as an American Black man, but now I am not even sure I can respect you as an AMerican for not being able to see the ills of our country.
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