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The Watcher
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Posted: Sunday June 27th, 2004 11:21 |
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I heard about a good show on TV today.......
Tonights Panorama investigates the churches claims that condoms do not protect against HIV. Cardinal Trujilio has a report on the matter which will be discussed.
They then go to Uganda where the Catholic church is promoting the abolishing of the use and distribution of condoms to return the people to a state of abstinence outside marriage.
Is that even possible in todays society??
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BlackBeauty
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Posted: Sunday June 27th, 2004 11:32 |
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DrunkMonkey wrote:
Is that even possible in todays society??
dont know about Uganda, but definitely not possible over here...
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The Watcher
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Posted: Sunday June 27th, 2004 11:45 |
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I saw another thing BB about these 'silver rings'. Apparently they are handed out to youngsters in the US who were them to show their virgin status as a source of pride. It is a visible display and supposed to be a mental deterrent to pre marital sex. The idea is gaining popularity here too (according to Richard & Judy).
It would be perhaps hypocritial of me to champion chastity and so on but I do think it is a positive move and something has to be done to stop the rise of HIV and other stds...
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BlackBeauty
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Posted: Sunday June 27th, 2004 11:55 |
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DrunkMonkey wrote: I saw another thing BB about these 'silver rings'. Apparently they are handed out to youngsters in the US who were them to show their virgin status as a source of pride. It is a visible display and supposed to be a mental deterrent to pre marital sex. The idea is gaining popularity here too (according to Richard & Judy).
It would be perhaps hypocritial of me to champion chastity and so on but I do think it is a positive move and something has to be done to stop the rise of HIV and other stds...
I understand what u r saying...but by making young ppl wear those rings display their ''sexual status'' isnt that still making them/forcing them to focus on sex??
And what does it truly mean?? Do they have to be checked (by they i mean girls) b4 they r assigned their rings, to make sure they r virgins-cause otherwise how would u really know??-Remember Britney Spears went on and on for ages about remaining a virgin until she was married and all the while she had/was bedding Justin.
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The Watcher
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Posted: Sunday June 27th, 2004 12:01 |
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| I think its more to do with abstinence, I don't think they have to certified virgins b4 getting a ring but while wearing ring the encouraged to abstain and b like those california girls who are 'born again virigins'
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LadyDay
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Posted: Sunday June 27th, 2004 13:01 |
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if you are allergic to condoms like peanuts they may can kill you. my friend is allergic to laytex so has to get non laytex condoms which is not easy to find for some reason.
as for the silver ring thing. i saw a documentary on it. very interesting. it is one of the campaigns that us president Bush is pushing in the states especially in texas his own backyard. it has worked for some and not for otehrs. there are still teen pregnancies as sex education is forbidden is some parts of texas and funding is only given for abstinence. aswell as the silver ring thing there is true love waits. they seem to be based on bible principles of no sex before marriage and the youth take a vow on this. also it is said to be spreading and memeber numbers are constantly growing. some youth who were sexually active have taken vows to stop and wait until marriage so no one is alienated
it can work but depends on how it is done.
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BlackBeauty
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Posted: Sunday June 27th, 2004 14:04 |
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LadyDay wrote: if you are allergic to condoms like peanuts they may can kill you. my friend is allergic to laytex so has to get non laytex condoms which is not easy to find for some reason.
as for the silver ring thing. i saw a documentary on it. very interesting. it is one of the campaigns that us president Bush is pushing in the states especially in texas his own backyard. it has worked for some and not for otehrs. there are still teen pregnancies as sex education is forbidden is some parts of texas and funding is only given for abstinence. aswell as the silver ring thing there is true love waits. they seem to be based on bible principles of no sex before marriage and the youth take a vow on this. also it is said to be spreading and memeber numbers are constantly growing. some youth who were sexually active have taken vows to stop and wait until marriage so no one is alienated
it can work but depends on how it is done.
I prefer that method than the ring thing.
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Swiftsinger
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Posted: Sunday June 27th, 2004 14:49 |
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OFF TOPIC:
Why BlackBeauty do you type your comments in that hard to read pink color?
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fazuan
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Posted: Sunday June 27th, 2004 16:48 |
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Swiftsinger wrote: OFF TOPIC:
Why BlackBeauty do you type your comments in that hard to read pink color?
I have wondered as well, I just never read it, hurts my eyes!
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The Watcher
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Posted: Sunday June 27th, 2004 16:52 |
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ROTF LMAO You see BB its not just me that says so
  
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name
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Posted: Sunday June 27th, 2004 17:03 |
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BlackBeauty......I've always wanted to know also. Why do you write in that hard to read pink?
It's hard to read dontcha y'know......
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fazuan
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Posted: Sunday June 27th, 2004 17:11 |
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DrunkMonkey wrote: I saw another thing BB about these 'silver rings'. Apparently they are handed out to youngsters in the US who were them to show their virgin status as a source of pride. It is a visible display and supposed to be a mental deterrent to pre marital sex. The idea is gaining popularity here too (according to Richard & Judy).
It would be perhaps hypocritial of me to champion chastity and so on but I do think it is a positive move and something has to be done to stop the rise of HIV and other stds...
I agree with this 100%, apart from stoping the rise of HIV, it also might help in restoring the former glory of sex, instead of the degradation, power struggle, and spiteful activity it's become today. and hopefully a new society where double standards are forever removed, where both male and female appreciate the need to abstain from sex until they find that special person and not do it as a need for conquests. Hmm in my ideal world!! LOL
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name
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Posted: Sunday June 27th, 2004 19:28 |
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fazuan, sounds idealistic, but it also sounds kinda nice.
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The Watcher
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Posted: Sunday June 27th, 2004 19:36 |
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I reckon that as a society we aren't scared enough. All the info we recieve is too sanitised. I read about the diseases from posters in the gum clinic, and I think they aren't graphic enough. We need to be shown picture of people dying of AIDS we need pictures not descriptions of the symtoms of diseases. People need to fear sex!!. We need to show that it does not pay to have unprotected and casual sex. Its a destructive lifestyle.
To many people in the west can not identify with the pictures they see of people suffering overseas. The sight of starving children in Africa has lost its shock value... people are not moved to do something, they just turn the TV channel. When people see AIDS sufferers in Johanesburg they can't relate to them, we need to show them AIDS sufferers here to show them that the danger is just as real for them. Like those recent anti smoking ads... If they showed genital warts intead of describing them or showed rashes and scabs and lesions... they could even lie and scare us, the ends justify the means. We need to fear sex.
Some of you will be thinking but sex is a wonderful thing and its not all nasty... True but human instinct will make sure we still desire sex, we will just be scared into being carefull.
Im really looking forward to this program now.
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The Watcher
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Posted: Sunday June 27th, 2004 21:24 |
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The cardinal says
Using a condom to solves the AIDS crisis is like throwing a petrol on a fire to put it out because the petrol encourages the fire
very interesting
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Sunday June 27th, 2004 22:17 |
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I watched this programme and I have to say I was almost speechless, a woman considers it a Sin to use a condom with her husband who she knows to be AIDs infected..
'I might not go to heaven' she says....Sorry but her husband and the church cardinal who maintain this nonsense ought to be strung up by their balls..
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The Watcher
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Posted: Sunday June 27th, 2004 23:00 |
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It was a good show, well put together.
It was even more shocking Kunjufu when the cardinal of Uganda said that yes the church may be making a mistake but so what? sometimes we make mistakes...
The Ugandan goverments approach is now being seen as the model for the rest of Africa, the abc program works quite well over there, it has dramatically slowed the spread of AIDS what do you think of its chances here?
a abstain No sex before marriage
b be faithful to your spouse
c If A and B are too hard then wear a condom
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Sunday June 27th, 2004 23:03 |
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| Drunkmoney: I think the A.B.C. approach has no chance in the UK, Similarly the Silver Ring thing.. Project no chance.. with all the preoccupation there is with relationships and sex they don't have a hope in hell..
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The Watcher
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Posted: Sunday June 27th, 2004 23:09 |
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HMMMMM sad but true I suppose,
The media (stop rolling your eyes!) has a lot to answer for here. Advertisers know that 'sex sells' and so consequently we are bombarded with it from a early age. What is the purpose of page 3?
Our own stars croon and sing about sex and fatasys and our films are full of it but then we buy it and watch it so its market forces.......but who is driving the market? Are we demanding sex or are they pushing it on us?
In Uganda those people are exactly the same as us but they don't quite have the monstrosity of a media that we have here. Are they more or les preoccupied with sex than us? hmmmm
Im not sure about this but something MUST be different here for you to say it wouldn't work.
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Sunday June 27th, 2004 23:16 |
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Drunkmonkey: what is different is the level of education (this btw is not meant to be rude), but in parts of Africa, South east Asia and the America's. The Catholic Church can in effect get away with preachin abstinance as the preacher in Uganda did without public scrutinty. I mean can you imagine a preacher telling people in the west not to 'hold hands' or to avoid all physical contact as he did.. and still be considered sane..?
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The Watcher
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Posted: Sunday June 27th, 2004 23:23 |
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It wasn't rude I accept truth when I see it (and Ive seen it LOL)
I think what that preacher intended was to scare people out of sex, something I advocated earlier. By saying that they should not even hold hands it drives ex further into the realms of what is forbidden. They may be prepared to defy the preacher and sneak off for a kiss perhaps but to have sex itself? I think they were suitably scared out of it.....
In that respect I must agree, that sort of tactic would NEVER work in the UK.
It was a bit extreme when he made everyone renounce their boyf/girlf before God!!
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Sunday June 27th, 2004 23:26 |
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DrunkMonkey wrote:
It was a bit extreme when he made everyone renounce their boyf/girlf before God!!
This was not just extreme it was blatantly out of order, I was totally shocked.
Last edited on Sunday June 27th, 2004 23:26 by Kunjufu
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Talkalot
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Posted: Monday June 28th, 2004 01:51 |
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I did not see any of those programs of which you speak. However, from what I have read the A.B.C / Silver Ring approach seems to me as a way forward. All around us there is evidence of decay of values within our society. We need stabilizing guidelines. We need ideas to work toward. We need a return to the source of true values.
This approach takes us back to that original source of true values, is the only way to stop the spread of AIDS and unwanted pregnancies. If you think such solutions are too difficult, don't expect the problems to be solved by easy substitutes. I agree that such approach would indeed be challenging here in the UK. It is within society's power to apply these remedies, though apparently it is not within our will to do so. This generation brooks no restrains on its freedoms, including its freedom to do wrong and suffer the consequences.
Whatever happen to self-restraint ? Most people are horrified by the results of our sexually permissive era. Yet many continue to hold sacred the importance of indulging sexual appetites to the fullest....We are expected to diet, to exercise, to stop smoking, to be self-disciplined about the way we live for the sake of our health. Only sexual gratification seems to have been granted a sacrosanct status for continued limitless indulgence. It is not that we cannot apply the A.B.C values, it is that we will not. So society sows and reaps.
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Posted: Monday June 28th, 2004 10:24 |
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I watched some, but not all of this programme.
I thought it was interesting. The church have got it the wrong, in denouncing condoms, i like that ABC approach, because at least it acknowledges, many people iwll not abstain, so although absitnence is the best protection, if you can't abstain, then protect your self.
I agree with DM, people need to be shocked a bit more, especially teenagers of today, we grew up with a strong safe sex message. But today its like a cliche which young people are ignoring.
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fazuan
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Posted: Monday June 28th, 2004 13:01 |
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Kunjufu wrote: I watched this programme and I have to say I was almost speechless, a woman considers it a Sin to use a condom with her husband who she knows to be AIDs infected..
'I might not go to heaven' she says....Sorry but her husband and the church cardinal who maintain this nonsense ought to be strung up by their balls..
that is a total nonsense!! I would run 30,000 miles away from a man that was infected, in this situation love is not enough
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COLTRANE
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Posted: Monday June 28th, 2004 14:58 |
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I wonder if the catholic chrch preaches the same message in the west or its only in Developing world..I dont believe in conspiracy theories but now I do..I think the catholic church is repeating the same mistakes it did during the Rwanda Genocide where it assisted the the militias and over 1 MILLION PEOPLE LOST LIVES THERE ...now they have moved on to condoms and HIV
sad.. very sad
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maya
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Posted: Monday June 28th, 2004 15:17 |
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| That is also sad that there are so many people who are easily influenced through religion.
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The Watcher
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Posted: Monday June 28th, 2004 15:30 |
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@fazuan
that is a total nonsense!! I would run 30,000 miles away from a man that was infected, in this situation love is not enough
I don't know if you saw it but that women believed with every fibre of her being that using a condom with her AIDS infected husbandwould send her straight to hell!! She had a moral duty to have unprotected sex with him.... It was very disturbing.
@Coltrane
What role did the church play in Rwanda? Im unaware of that one. I never knew they assisted the militias!!
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Posted: Monday June 28th, 2004 15:32 |
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I didn't see this program but am not convinced that the church should be mainly responsible for making sure people abstain from sex before marriage, especially if the man can say "so what we make mistakes". How cold is that!! Am I right in assuming that this topic is related to young people and sex? If so, then what ever happened to education at home? Back to basics. Sex among young people seems to be a peer pressure thing but what the youngsters should do is not follow the crowd and the parents need to make sure their children know the importance of keeping their heads in their books and worry about sex and partners when they are done studying. Although keeping on a level with their children, they could highlight the different aspects of sex like the emotional side and about how precious that gift is not to be abused.
Friends of teenage parents know how restricting it is when their friends get pregnant and have to grow up before they've finished their childhood.
As for STD's well numbers are rising amongst the youth and I can't think of a better way to shock than to show EXACTLY what happens when you don't hear. Does anyone have the email that shows pictures of sore infested arms, legs and genitals of people who have AIDS? It's a couple years old but still shocking to see what can happen as a result. It will make your stomach turn and should make you think more than twice about before you commit the act.
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fazuan
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Posted: Monday June 28th, 2004 15:59 |
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I don't know if you saw it but that women believed with every fibre of her being that using a condom with her AIDS infected husbandwould send her straight to hell!! She had a moral duty to have unprotected sex with him.... It was very disturbing.
and somewhere on this board, some joker said female oppression didn't exist in africa!!!! isn't this all part of it, I understand where she is coming from, christianity is being used now to further oppress women, it's a new form of oppression but I have experienced it personally, 10 years ago in church, my pastor decided that God had revealed to him who I should marry, apparently many "sisters" were forced to marry some guy they were not even attracted to and felt they didn't want to go against the pastor because going against him was going against God, of course I laughed in his face and told him where to shove his visions, after that I became the "backsliden sister", there was also the one about covering your hair, not wearing make up or trousers as it was man's clothing, quoting from the book of deuteronomy I think, I can emphathize with what that woman is saying, it might be disturbing to you but it's absolutely normal to the millions of women living under such mental oppression in africa.
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maya
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Posted: Monday June 28th, 2004 16:12 |
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| @ fazuan No only women are influenced by religion but men as well. Some parties use priests to preach people whom to vote for. I think its horrible and sad .....very sad
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The Watcher
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Posted: Monday June 28th, 2004 16:15 |
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| You missed the point fazuan and I think you missed the show.... The whole community was being indoctrinated, including the men. This wasn't a man / woman thing but a serious and pottentially dangerous way of approaching a massive crisis.
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fazuan
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Posted: Monday June 28th, 2004 16:21 |
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DrunkMonkey wrote: You missed the point fazuan and I think you missed the show.... The whole community was being indoctrinated, including the men. This wasn't a man / woman thing but a serious and pottentially dangerous way of approaching a massive crisis.
yeah I didn't see it and I havent watched tv in ages, I dont even know why we're paying so much for cable tv!!!! But educate me, what was really going on??
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The Watcher
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Posted: Monday June 28th, 2004 16:41 |
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When I first started this thread it was because I read the preview of the show and it sounded like a good idea what this Cardinal (of Brazil) was saying.
He said condoms don't stop HIV and the use of them promotes casual sex which is increasing the spread of AIDS in Africa and is tantamount to genocide.
The film makers interviewed various AIDS workers and a whole heap of experts (black ones too) and none of them agreed with him. They so far as to go to a legalised brothel in America and interview them on their records. Some hundreds of thousands of 'transactions' a year and not a single sex worker had caught HIV because they have to wear condoms by law. The program makers then went to the Cardinal with this but he refused a further interview. They went to Uganda, a country in Africa which is seen as a success because they have dramatically reduced the onset of the AIDS epedemic.
They interviewed the Cardinal of Uganda and watched the sermons of some of his priests. These were disturbing scenes as related by Kunjufu above. Im all for encouraging fidelity and scaring people but this guy went waaaay to far. Talking to 100% believing people about how they were going to hell etc etc. Thats were the woman we disscussed came in. The Cardinal justified this by saying that the church was the reason Uganda was doing well.
The intervewed the government official and the health workers in the country to find out why Uganda was doing so well. Uganda has implemented the abc program I described b4. The goverment guy was saying its not oly the church promoting abstinence but also the education in the use of and the distribution of condoms. All the health workers were convinced that the churches approach of banning condoms was a dangerous one risking many lives. The film makers interviewed the cardinal again and he seemed nonchalant and quite casual about that, "Its not like we [the church] haven't made mistakes before" he said.
There was one young health worker who summed it up. She sadi she had come from a staunch catholic family and she was taught that condoms were evil and only prostiitutes and hell bound sinners used them. She altered her view as she grew and people died around her and she said abstinence is best but in reality it doesn't work that way. Hence the abc program....she now teaches people about condoms and how to use them.
After watching I think I like the abc approach, It works well, but was perhaps naive in being ready to believe the Brazillian Cardinal.
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fazuan
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Posted: Monday June 28th, 2004 16:59 |
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@drunkmonkey
aaah I see now, that is way over the top!!!!!! ignorance isn't bliss I tell you..how sad
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Sista Africa
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Posted: Monday June 28th, 2004 18:11 |
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Coltrane
Good question which I also noted as the message about abstinance is certainly not being pushed in the same way in the West
Other thing that I noted was availability of condoms in Uganda something like 9 per adult male per year compare this to the (free) and easy access here
Fazun
In Uganda (and elsewhere in Africa) the women and men ( the whole society) are being indoctrinated by so called Christians the programme on Channel 4 a week or two ago feature churches in Nigeria where people were being convinved that some religious charlatan could cure them of AIDS and many other things through his 'healing powers'
Last edited on Monday June 28th, 2004 18:13 by Sista Africa
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fazuan
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Posted: Monday June 28th, 2004 18:20 |
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Sista africa, it doesn't surprise me at all!!
I'm glad that we can recognize this as a problem and take definite steps in working towards it's eradication, I truly believe the problem to be ignorance and poverty, nothing else really. I am regularly involved in campaigns in africa although they are mainly geared towards women but now I see that even the men ARE blind.
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Sista Africa
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Posted: Monday June 28th, 2004 18:31 |
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| One question that is always on my mind is 'Whether AIDs is really the biggest killer in Africa?' I know that its certainly become one of the biggest industries and I'm not saying that we should tackle it but I also find it frustrating when other fundementals like access to clean drinking water (which leads to all kinds of health problems without) are given less of a profile
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fazuan
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Posted: Monday June 28th, 2004 18:42 |
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Sista Africa wrote: One question that is always on my mind is 'Whether AIDs is really the biggest killer in Africa?' I know that its certainly become one of the biggest industries and I'm not saying that we should tackle it but I also find it frustrating when other fundementals like access to clean drinking water (which leads to all kinds of health problems without) are given less of a profile
I am really feeling you on this one, especially when people think of africa and think aids, I am yet to meet one person that has died from aids in africa, except maybe fela and it was an aids related illness. I don't want to start now about what I think about their so called aids scourge in africa but I truly believe that it's misrepresented, it exists , yes but the numbers have been blown out of proportion. There are so many other problems crying out for help, the hospitals are in disarray, infact bad roads are the highest killers in africa, the number of people that die from road accidents are innumerable, so please spare me and don't come up to me crying aids in africa, it is NOT the number one killer in africa.
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BlackBeauty
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Posted: Tuesday June 29th, 2004 22:39 |
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@Sister Africa. I have always wondered that as well...kind of sounds like it all stems back to that LIE about aids originating in africa&it's ppl...
...apparently black ppl r being deliberately invected with the aids virus to kill us off...that's just what i heard though-could just b hear'say
How cheeky.
Just read the comments about my choice of colour. WELL I USE IT BECAUSE I CAN OK.
So 2 u all! And it's not hard to read-u just have sore eyes (and NOT from reading my text-b4 n e one tried to comment).
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