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Kunjufu
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Posted: Tuesday June 12th, 2007 20:32 |
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I'm in a contentious mood today, so I'm going to put forward a proposition influenced by RESS and the Thread by Soulstarr and ask for views on this.....btw this is NOT a criticism of these people but rather a broader questioning of a trait that i know exist within our community, and asking is it past its sell by date... I'm going to give three quick scenarios to illustrate my point and then put my question out there.....
Case 1: An African male trough a lot of circumstances most of which were self inflicted, finds himself up for disciplimary in his job, at the first hearing he is represented by a white union rep, who to be truthful.. Did defend him hard as he recognised that it was a lost case. At the 1st appeal, the African man bring in an African litiation friend to defend him.. Far from picking holes in the case in order to exploit some Obvious weaknesses in the employers case.. The African litigation friend, acts like Petrocelli, throws his weight around, roughs up the witnesses so bad that the chair of the hearing has to step in to stop his cross examination. He then gives it to the Chair to and anyone else in his sights...
Conclusion: case lost employers arguements for sacking upheld....
Ps..same thing on a different scale happened at the Tribunial with the same results in favour of the employer..
Case 2. African woman, has child taken from her by Local authority, again by and large through self inflicted behaviour, although the local authorities case is strong, it could be challenged with a competent solicitor.. However This African woman rejects two good solicitors because they weren't 'black' enough..ie they did not aggressively challenge the local authority.. In the end said person decides to represent herself, by and large she makes the reprsentatives of the authority sweat, but again oversteps the mark in aroused emotions, threats and the such like...
Conclusion..Child made ward of court.susequent appeals against the judgement upheld in favour of the local authority.. Child gone fullstop..
Case 3 African female Student on work placement; admittedly suffers racism and is setup by her supervisor who is to be honest a numbskull. However it is also true that said student is clearly not competent for the work is supposed to be gaining experience in. however
rather than deal with the issue effectively, or get her pass grade, she begins to openly insult the very supervisor charged with grading her... she refuses to comply with direction given on the job, and treats the supervisor with obvious disrespect, distain.. The proverbial as they say sunptin sumptin hit fan, and the work placement knowing that the supervisor was largely at fault in the first place, overlook this. and focus instead on her obvious unproffesional behaviour. They call her to a meeting to discuss the issue, my girl decides to have her say cusses everyone clean.. and is subsequently terminated from the work experience..
Conclusion..said student would be lucky to pass qualifying course she has embarked on...and has effectively wasted 3 years..
All of the above are true stories, although i have obviously left out, and altered certain facts to avoid breaking confidences or identifying people..
My point is this..I have noticed a tendancy by some African/Black people to reach too quickly for the race card, and then too quickly for the cuss ignorance strategy to cover their mistakes time and time again...and I have to be honest i have never EVER, heard or seen an occassion where this strategy/behaviour works in favour of the person behaving like that...NEVER!!.
Now there was a period back in the late 70's in the UK when in certain public bodies one could use the 'Race card' and people would run literally for cover... However those days have long since gone.. Times have moved on, and whilst the Black community has gotten more adept at fighting our corner generally, there is still an ardent few I believe who forget that White folks also look and learn too...and they have also moved on and become more refined..
So the days of rah rahing people, or using the race card as a deterent or to rough people up, just won't work, i argue in 21st century, especially in a post 9/11 climate...
So is it time to stop using 'Ignorant' behaviour as the FIRST and sometimes ONLY line of defence when we get into problems, whether its our fault or not?...I suggest that doing this almost always makes our position WORSE and rarely if ever better....
Discuss...
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blessingfromgod
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Posted: Tuesday June 12th, 2007 21:00 |
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Too true and agreed on most points. However I dont think it's a case of overlooking the need to pull the race card; if this is the case! The point is to challenge it professionally, and in a manor which will not have white folks rolling their eyes and thinking 'here we go'. As you stated it hardly ever proves fruitful when people cannot articulate self without resorting to stereotypical views (i.e) the cussing and the shouting, throwing weight around  Alas some folk just cant help it or are not accustomed to more effective ways of expressing/challenging the powers that be.
Also reminds me of an incident in court when a y/p's gran would not STFU. Turns up 1 hr late and proceeds to interupt and argue with the judge in true old Black woman style and all sorts. Some people just wont be told 
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Tuesday June 12th, 2007 21:09 |
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BFG: I agree with you, some people just won't have it... you know i have could easily fill this forum with clear examples of when our own people have literally shot themselves in both feet, by looking to cuss first and THINK later...
I can think of another example of another colleague who got an Email that she took to be disrespectful on the grounds of race, she asked me for advice on what she wrote, she gets bex with me when i'm trying point out that cussing people clean as a 1st response is a disproportionate response..
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Jim999
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Posted: Tuesday June 12th, 2007 22:12 |
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Kunjufu;
I wonder if you understand that what you are really asking for, is the solution to just about all of Black peoples problems. For surely if all of your questions can be answered, the solution is in hand. I will offer my own thoughts, but it would be far better it those who have been in the situation and reacted in a way similar to what you described would honestly share what they were thinking and feeling.
My thoughts:
Many Black people stereotypically are uncomfortable fighting with their brains as opposed to physically or orally (cussing out someone).
Possible reasons for this could be:
Cussing someone out provides instant gratification. Black people are not accustomed to working long term toward a goal. A great many Black people live hand-to-hand, day-to-day.
Black people are used to not having, therefore blowing an opportunity to finally have something is akin to blowing a fantasy – it was a hope, it wasn’t really real in the first place. This is especially true if the person didn’t feel that they had done enough to really earn it.
Black people are very gullible - when it relates to White people, they really believed the B.S. about working hard and earning what you get, plus a great many other B.S. stories, religious and otherwise. The fact is; you use whatever means and methods are available to you – legal and slightly otherwise to get yours. Anyone doubting this please read the histories of all the richest families. That other stuff is what the haves tell the have-nots to insure that they never have. It’s a rough world out there; the winner gets to tell the story.
However, many unintelligent Blacks think this bit of truth means armed robbery, Drug dealing and the like – they lack the intelligence to understand that is counter-productive. We must all aid the Police in getting rid of them – it’s us that they prey on.
Far too many Black people consider Whites to be the essence of intelligence and learning. They feel that they can’t compete successfully.
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Tuesday June 12th, 2007 22:20 |
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Jim: are being serious or are you taking the piss?
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Jim999
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Posted: Tuesday June 12th, 2007 22:25 |
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The subject is far too serious to be frivolous.
If you disagree, please do so point-by-point.
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Tuesday June 12th, 2007 22:29 |
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Jim: I disagree with some of your points, however my question was to clarify that your very FIRM views were honest and not frivolous stereotyping of our culture.. I won't comment at this time and will await the responses of others first!
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Prince Hakeem
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Posted: Wednesday June 13th, 2007 10:18 |
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This is true, sometimes we can be a very emotional people. However, being in the workplace for a number of years has really taught me quite a bit about the psychology of the average european.
I do know one thing for sure, is that when they try to antagonise you even in a covert way, one thing they CANNOT bear is being ignored. There's just something about an African not even giving them a glance that really gets under their skin. I know this from personal recent experience. One woman whom I suspect is a racist was being deliberately rude on a few occasions and rather than give the reaction she wanted, I just replied with a few nonchalant sarcastic remarks and totally ignored her after that. Now I notice she tries to go out her way to be nice but I'm simply not bothered. It's not as if I'm in the building every day anyway.
Unfortunately I have known of Africans flying off the handle without thinking and it's totally gone against them. One of my sister's friends did this and now she's paying the price.
There is a way to handle these things if and when they arise, but some of our people need to learn that you can't rah rah as if you're in your yard!!
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Apedemak
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Posted: Wednesday June 13th, 2007 10:59 |
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sometimes we can be a very emotional people
... and some of us come from a certain background where we feel as though we're under attack when we aren't or at least aren't not in the way we think and so defend ourselves in the best way we know how.
Considering what we are going through its easy to see why, social pressures and what not.
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Prince Hakeem
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Posted: Wednesday June 13th, 2007 11:01 |
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| True @ Apedemak
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RESS
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Posted: Wednesday June 13th, 2007 11:38 |
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Kunjufu wrote:
Case 1: An African male trough a lot of circumstances most of which were self inflicted, finds himself up for disciplimary in his job, at the first hearing he is represented by a white union rep, who to be truthful.. Did defend him hard as he recognised that it was a lost case. . . . . .
Conclusion: case lost employers arguements for sacking upheld....
Ps..same thing on a different scale happened at the Tribunial with the same results in favour of the employer..
In the real world people who are suffering Racist Abuse at work find it difficult to accept it as Racist abuse for fear of being accused of using the 'Race Card'.
White Racist management were responsible for all that happened to that man classified as Black.
The 'Race Card' is the only true card in an Institutionally Racism which is the same as a White Supremacist controlled environment.
Case 2. African woman, has child taken from her by Local authority, again by and large through self inflicted behaviour, although the local authorities case is strong, it could be challenged with a competent solicitor.. However This African woman rejects two good solicitors because they weren't 'black' enough..ie they did not aggressively challenge the local authority.. In the end said person decides to represent herself, by and large she makes the reprsentatives of the authority sweat, but again oversteps the mark in aroused emotions, threats and the such like...
Conclusion..Child made ward of court.susequent appeals against the judgement upheld in favour of the local authority.. Child gone fullstop..
Case 3 African female Student on work placement; admittedly suffers racism and is setup by her supervisor who is to be honest a numbskull. However it is also true that said student is clearly not competent for the work is supposed to be gaining experience in. . . . . .
Conclusion..said student would be lucky to pass qualifying course she has embarked on...and has effectively wasted 3 years..
My point is this..I have noticed a tendancy by some African/Black people to reach too quickly for the race card, and then too quickly for the cuss ignorance strategy to cover their mistakes time and time again...and I have to be honest i have never EVER, heard or seen an occassion where this strategy/behaviour works in favour of the person behaving like that...NEVER!!.
Now there was a period back in the late 70's in the UK when in certain public bodies one could use the 'Race card' and people would run literally for cover... However those days have long since gone.. Times have moved on, and whilst the Black community has gotten more adept at fighting our corner generally, there is still an ardent few I believe who forget that White folks also look and learn too...and they have also moved on and become more refined..
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RESS
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Posted: Wednesday June 13th, 2007 12:05 |
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Kunjufu wrote:
You keep using the term "self-inflicted".
All the problems suffered by people classified as Black and non-white are inflicted directly but mostly indirectly by White Supremacist Racist Terrorists in Trustee, Directorship, Executive and Senior Management positions in Institutionally Racist Organisations, Businesses and Services.
Of course people classified as Black make mistakes at work like any human being might be expected to make. BUT those mistakes as viewed differently and have different consquences depending on the colour of ones skin in a Racist environment.
Also the fact that a Black person is working in a blatantly Racist environment and is still manageing to survive is an amazing feat in itself acted out daily.
It appears that Kunjufu and some others think that it was the slaves fault that they got abused, whipped and murdered. if they had only made more effort to get on with their slave masters things might have been ok.
This kind of thought pattern is common in Black people that have not woken up to the realisation of their environment, education and conditoning.
It is also common among Black people who's parents managed to put some money aside for them after worshipping the White man all their working lives and having one or two nice White neighbours who invited them over for tea and said that they love Black people because they went to their country and had a nice holiday.
It is also common among Black people that are trying to pursue a career or maintain a business in a White Supremacist environment but who are still deluded. These people are in stark contrast to those who understand their Racist environment but still work hard towards their goals fully conscious of the Racist agenda.
The deluded type will always blame Black people for the Racist Abuse they suffer at the hand of Racists and will be the first to help White people destroy Black people consciously or unconsciously.
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Wednesday June 13th, 2007 12:06 |
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RESS wrote:
In the real world people who are suffering Racist Abuse at work find it difficult to accept it as Racist abuse for fear of being accused of using the 'Race Card'.
White Racist management were responsible for all that happened to that man classified as Black.
The 'Race Card' is the only true card in an Institutionally Racism which is the same as a White Supremacist controlled environment.
RESS: Naturally you are correct, racism is hard to identify and define especially in the work place.... However you missed the point completely...
It might interest you to know that in the case of scenrio 1, that African man played the race card, after an allegation of sexual harrassment was level at him by an African sister.. The allegation was complete true..he was as guilty as sin...I wonder now if that changes YOUR perception of this case and him...?
As you appear to have missed the objective of this thread, i'll remark the point.. The point is that in all three cases the people involved had made fundemental mistakes, however they compounded these mistakes by overreacting and reaching for the race card when clearly they not race was at fault... had they NOT done as a FIRST resort, they could overted what happened next, they didn't ad they had catastrophic consequences..
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RESS
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Posted: Wednesday June 13th, 2007 12:12 |
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Sometimes, I think Black people are their own worse enemies am i right?
The answer to this question is:
No. Never.
And will remain 'no' until such time as the problem of White Supremacist ideology is not supported by the state and the system of Institutionalised/Organised Racism is demolished.
And stop blameing the Black children for their exclusions and under achievement in the Racist education, justice and social system.
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Wednesday June 13th, 2007 12:19 |
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RESS wrote: Kunjufu wrote:
You keep using the term "self-inflicted".
All the problems suffered by people classified as Black and non-white are inflicted directly but mostly indirectly by White Supremacist Racist Terrorists in Trustee, Directorship, Executive and Senior Management positions in Institutionally Racist Organisations, Businesses and Services.
Of course people classified as Black make mistakes at work like any human being might be expected to make. BUT those mistakes as viewed differently and have different consquences depending on the colour of ones skin in a Racist environment.
Also the fact that a Black person is working in a blatantly Racist environment and is still manageing to survive is an amazing feat in itself acted out daily.
It appears that Kunjufu and some others think that it was the slaves fault that they got abused, whipped and murdered. if they had only made more effort to get on with their slave masters things might have been ok.
RESS: i'm curious and maybe you can help me..... I happen to agree with you that racism is rife at work...and that the consequences for Africans who take a mistep at work are heavier than their white peers... So where does our responsibility as Africans start and end in keeping ourselves safe and NOT playing into the hands of the system?
In scenario 1..As i said before that man commited a very serious sexual assault, I suspect smoking weed didn't help his clarity either, nor the fact that he lied about the assault and tried to intimidate the witness afterwards... Tell me was that racism or his behaviour that was at fault i'm curious?
Scenario 2 Mother who lose child, I know as fact that lots of people tried to help, direct and prevent what took place... They were ignored and the advice not taken.. and the predicted outcomes happened... Now help me out, if we all know the system is racist, is it responsible to completely ignore good support/advice and then blame racism after your actions virtually makes the local authority case for them?
In the Last scenario..the student, whilst racism was definately a factor, the facts were that other black staff tried to help and support..again that help was ignored and yes the predictable happened.. whos fault is that..racism or the person who failed to recognise the conditions they were in?
Like i said you like to sermonise and throw emotive accusations freely but, in realiy that behaviour is old and past its sell by date...
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RESS
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Posted: Wednesday June 13th, 2007 12:31 |
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Kunjufu wrote: RESS wrote:
In the real world people who are suffering Racist Abuse at work find it difficult to accept it as Racist abuse for fear of being accused of using the 'Race Card'.
White Racist management were responsible for all that happened to that man classified as Black.
The 'Race Card' is the only true card in an Institutionally Racism which is the same as a White Supremacist controlled environment.
RESS: Naturally you are correct, racism is hard to identify and define especially in the work place.... However you missed the point completely...
No. That is not correct. It is easy to identify Racism in the work place and define it.
Use can easily recognise a White Supremacist Racist Terrorist controlled organisation by the fact that they refuse to employ the correct number of Black people in positions of power where decisions are being made that will have serious impact of people classified as Black.
It might interest you to know that in the case of scenrio 1, that African man played the race card, after an allegation of sexual harrassment was level at him by an African sister.. The allegation was complete true..he was as guilty as sin...I wonder now if that changes YOUR perception of this case and him...?
Most of us have fully accepted the Sexual values of the White Supremacist Racists in positions of power.
Sexual activity is managed directly or indirectly by White Supremacist Racists.
The fact that this was between a Black man and Black woman is irrelevant. They were both in a White Supremacist controlled environment. Just like animals on a farm or slaves in a ship or dogs in a yard.
White Supremacists encourage trouble among Black people for work entertainment. It gives them something to talk about up the pub.
As you appear to have missed the objective of this thread, i'll remark the point.. The point is that in all three cases the people involved had made fundemental mistakes, however they compounded these mistakes by overreacting and reaching for the race card when clearly they not race was at fault... had they NOT done as a FIRST resort, they could overted what happened next, they didn't ad they had catastrophic consequences..
It is correct that Black people react unwisely sometimes under pressure from their Racist abusers but we cannot accept over-react.
Only the person feeling the pain can make a that.
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Wednesday June 13th, 2007 12:50 |
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RESS wrote:
No. That is not correct. It is easy to identify Racism in the work place and define it.
Really!!! Well if what you say is true, can you then explain the logic of you conducting enquiries into various companies, can you also explain why if it is so easy, that you have embarked on a letter writing campaign asking firms about racism?
Surely if it was 'easy' as you firmly believe, you could and should be telling these firm exactly what behaviours were racism and prosecuting them under the race relations Act 1976 and the Amended act..
Use can easily recognise a White Supremacist Racist Terrorist controlled organisation by the fact that they refuse to employ the correct number of Black people in positions of power where decisions are being made that will have serious impact of people classified as Black.
Again i must say i was equally confused by you consistent statements of 'racist terrorist controlled organisations', please correct me if i'm wrong, but this is the UK, AKA the belly of the beast... what pray tell did you expect?
It might interest you to know that in the case of scenrio 1, that African man played the race card, after an allegation of sexual harrassment was level at him by an African sister.. The allegation was complete true..he was as guilty as sin...I wonder now if that changes YOUR perception of this case and him...?
Most of us have fully accepted the Sexual values of the White Supremacist Racists in positions of power. Sexual activity is managed directly or indirectly by White Supremacist Racists.
The fact that this was between a Black man and Black woman is irrelevant. They were both in a White Supremacist controlled environment. Just like animals on a farm or slaves in a ship or dogs in a yard.
although fairly predictable i still find you're view on this issue astounding..given you're logic I could argue that regardless of what criminal act i commit, i will remain blameless because, I was raised in a racist system wow!! What about free will and independant thought?
It is correct that Black people react unwisely sometimes under pressure from their Racist abusers but we cannot accept over-react.
Only the person feeling the pain can make a that.
I actually agree with the above 'pressure' make people overreact very true, not it is not true to say only the person in pain can have an opinion on what takes place thereafter...
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RESS
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Posted: Wednesday June 13th, 2007 13:06 |
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Kunjufu wrote: RESS wrote: Kunjufu wrote:
You keep using the term "self-inflicted".
All the problems suffered by people classified as Black and non-white are inflicted directly but mostly indirectly by White Supremacist Racist Terrorists in Trustee, Directorship, Executive and Senior Management positions in Institutionally Racist Organisations, Businesses and Services.
Of course people classified as Black make mistakes at work like any human being might be expected to make. BUT those mistakes as viewed differently and have different consquences depending on the colour of ones skin in a Racist environment.
Also the fact that a Black person is working in a blatantly Racist environment and is still manageing to survive is an amazing feat in itself acted out daily.
It appears that Kunjufu and some others think that it was the slaves fault that they got abused, whipped and murdered. if they had only made more effort to get on with their slave masters things might have been ok.
RESS: i'm curious and maybe you can help me..... I happen to agree with you that racism is rife at work...and that the consequences for Africans who take a mistep at work are heavier than their white peers... So where does our responsibility as Africans start and end in keeping ourselves safe and NOT playing into the hands of the system?
Africans in a White Supremacist Racist controlled environment are not responsible for anything that takes place in that environment. The White people in positions of power with control over what tales place in that environment are to blame for everything that goes bad for Black people.
The realising and acceptance of the above fact will change the behaviour and values of any African trying to survive in this hostile and poisoned postition.
Blaming each other is like animals fighting over scraps or food or attacking each other trying to find a comfortable place to sleep when it is obvious the zoo keeper is to blame.
In scenario 1..As i said before that man commited a very serious sexual assault, I suspect smoking weed didn't help his clarity either, nor the fact that he lied about the assault and tried to intimidate the witness afterwards... Tell me was that racism or his behaviour that was at fault i'm curious?
Black people cannot be Racist but they can be unjust to each other.
Smoking weed is a way some people use to help them survive in White Supremacist environment.
If it was not for Racist Abuse since childhood he would not be in that position.
Scenario 2 Mother who lose child, I know as fact that lots of people tried to help, direct and prevent what took place... They were ignored and the advice not taken.. and the predicted outcomes happened... Now help me out, if we all know the system is racist, is it responsible to completely ignore good support/advice and then blame racism after your actions virtually makes the local authority case for them?
The advice given could not be accepted because of the stress induced by those White Supremacist Racist Terrorists who make money by taking Black children into care. Prisons and Care Homes are money making ventures for White Supremacists.
In the Last scenario..the student, whilst racism was definately a factor, the facts were that other black staff tried to help and support..again that help was ignored and yes the predictable happened.. whos fault is that..racism or the person who failed to recognise the conditions they were in?
People often try to advise Black people how to cooperate with Racists in the Social Services but forget to question whether those Social Services are in a postiton to make any decision about any case that effects Black people.
Like i said you like to sermonise and throw emotive accusations freely but, in realiy that behaviour is old and past its sell by date...
You are correct that emotive behaviour is useless against the system of White Supremacy.
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RESS
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Posted: Wednesday June 13th, 2007 13:22 |
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No. That is not correct. It is easy to identify Racism in the work place and define it.
Really!!! Well if what you say is true, can you then explain the logic of you conducting enquiries into various companies, can you also explain why if it is so easy, that you have embarked on a letter writing campaign asking firms about racism?
Unless a person is familiar with reverse psychology and psychological warfare this forum is not a suitable place to explain RESS actions.
RESS has chosen the less glamorous but most effective path.
Surely if it was 'easy' as you firmly believe, you could and should be telling these firm exactly what behaviours were racism and prosecuting them under the race relations Act 1976 and the Amended act..
Remember the first stage is enquiry.
Use can easily recognise a White Supremacist Racist Terrorist controlled organisation by the fact that they refuse to employ the correct number of Black people in positions of power where decisions are being made that will have serious impact of people classified as Black.
Again i must say i was equally confused by you consistent statements of 'racist terrorist controlled organisations', please correct me if i'm wrong, but this is the UK, AKA the belly of the beast... what pray tell did you expect?
You are correct.
But the expectations are not what it would appear.
Most of us have fully accepted the Sexual values of the White Supremacist Racists in positions of power. Sexual activity is managed directly or indirectly by White Supremacist Racists.
The fact that this was between a Black man and Black woman is irrelevant. They were both in a White Supremacist controlled environment. Just like animals on a farm or slaves in a ship or dogs in a yard.
although fairly predictable i still find you're view on this issue astounding..given you're logic I could argue that regardless of what criminal act i commit, i will remain blameless because, I was raised in a racist system wow!! What about free will and independant thought?
We must accept the concept of 'freewill' for a prisoner in a prison.
We think in English a language taught, sustained and promoted by White Supremacist Racists. Independent thought must consider the impact and limitation of language.
It is correct that Black people react unwisely sometimes under pressure from their Racist abusers but we cannot accept over-react.
Only the person feeling the pain can make a that.
I actually agree with the above 'pressure' make people overreact very true, not it is not true to say only the person in pain can have an opinion on what takes place thereafter...
People have no choice but to have an opinion of things that have an impact on their lives and their perceived values.
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