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Incognito
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Posted: Saturday May 19th, 2007 19:52 |
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Well, after reading how Happiness was related to a recent victim, this one is just as close if not closer to home for me. Anyone who has read my comments in threads like being between a rock and a hard place, faking it for the children, do your children have the right to know, and others, may be able to piece a puzzle together and see this was a tragedy waiting to happen.
Got the phone call today and the victim was my bona fide bredrins first son. Oh my days, it doesn't get crueller than this and speaking to the dad, the really scary thing is when he got the call it was a call that psychologically he'd been preparing for....for a while now. And believe me, nobody tried harder to prevent this happening than the dad. I remember him saying some months back what more can he really do but he didn't give in and was trying to the very end.
And it also reinforces that for all the talk and opinions we can share on a chat forum, the realities of dealing with living a situation like this in real life on a day to day basis are a lot more complicated than a news headline might suggest. I would even go as far to say for the powers that be, correcting the ills of society takes too much time, effort and resources and it's a lot less work to bury one and incarcerate the other.
All I can say is when a man talks about raising his kids, know the difference between raising boys and supporting (financing) boys. Our youths are worth more than money and bread!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6673143.stm
Teenager dies after being stabbed A teenager died after being stabbed during a street fight in south London, police have said. The 18-year-old was stabbed in the Parchmore Road area of Thornton Heath at around 2230 BST on Friday.
He was taken to Mayday Hospital but doctors pronounced him dead shortly after 2300 BST.
A 16-year-old was arrested in connection with the stabbing, and two other men were being held by the Metropolitan Police.
Last edited on Saturday May 19th, 2007 19:57 by Incognito
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Vezz.
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Posted: Saturday May 19th, 2007 20:21 |
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I knew about this literally "from morning", as it's practically on my doorstep, plus I attended a Fun Day at a local school with Hubby plus the kids, where it was the only topic of conversation.
The police have closed Tesco's car park, up to the Clock Tower.
TBH, I didn't even think to bother to post this....just another doom & gloom story. But, as the mother of two boys my heart goes out to the parents (I think I saw the mother at about 5.30 pm....she was with a younger female and their arms were full of flowers. They stood at the edge of the cordon).
Coggy, please pass on my condolences, and I hope you accept them too.
RIP, Little Man xx
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Maat
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Posted: Saturday May 19th, 2007 21:44 |
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My sympathy goes out to you and the family who've lost another too soon
So sad. May his soul rest in peace.
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lilthuggy
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Posted: Saturday May 19th, 2007 21:58 |
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 R.I.P
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blessingfromgod
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Posted: Saturday May 19th, 2007 23:57 |
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Rest in Peace. Yet another future Doctor, Lawyer, President... has an untimely demise. This is not good.
R.I.P
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stick-upKid
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Posted: Sunday May 20th, 2007 00:29 |
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South London
again....
RiP to the young brother
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Posted: Sunday May 20th, 2007 00:52 |
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| RIP. Thoughts to the family, its not easy losing a child.
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Happiness
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Posted: Sunday May 20th, 2007 13:10 |
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Incognito wrote: Well, after reading how Happiness was related to a recent victim, this one is just as close if not closer to home for me. Anyone who has read my comments in threads like being between a rock and a hard place, faking it for the children, do your children have the right to know, and others, may be able to piece a puzzle together and see this was a tragedy waiting to happen.
Got the phone call today and the victim was my bona fide bredrins first son. Oh my days, it doesn't get crueller than this and speaking to the dad, the really scary thing is when he got the call it was a call that psychologically he'd been preparing for....for a while now. And believe me, nobody tried harder to prevent this happening than the dad. I remember him saying some months back what more can he really do but he didn't give in and was trying to the very end.
And it also reinforces that for all the talk and opinions we can share on a chat forum, the realities of dealing with living a situation like this in real life on a day to day basis are a lot more complicated than a news headline might suggest. I would even go as far to say for the powers that be, correcting the ills of society takes too much time, effort and resources and it's a lot less work to bury one and incarcerate the other.
All I can say is when a man talks about raising his kids, know the difference between raising boys and supporting (financing) boys. Our youths are worth more than money and bread!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6673143.stm
Teenager dies after being stabbed A teenager died after being stabbed during a street fight in south London, police have said. The 18-year-old was stabbed in the Parchmore Road area of Thornton Heath at around 2230 BST on Friday.
He was taken to Mayday Hospital but doctors pronounced him dead shortly after 2300 BST.
A 16-year-old was arrested in connection with the stabbing, and two other men were being held by the Metropolitan Police.
@ Incognito - I am so sorry to hear of this. I am just, personally, at a loss to understand this madness. I cannot imagine what I would do in your friend's shoes and I am sure he was prepared...yet not prepared.
sorry...
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Incognito
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Posted: Sunday May 20th, 2007 14:00 |
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Happiness - well I was just speaking to him and he said he was expecting something but in all honesty not something as final as this..maybe a visit to the hospital with his son critical but pulling through. If you ever know the dynamics involved that culminated in this death it's just pure madness and it hasn't finished here.
I told the dad if this feels close to me I can't imagine how it feels for him...I can only guess it must feel like it was him himself who died - but ironically, in a numbing way the last four years or so has almost strengthened his resolve. And for me this is the real tragedy, it's almost like the death is a consequence of so many other things going worng with our families and our communities that the death itself is no longer the main issue..it's like an expected consequence where the madness behind it is where all the attention is now focussed. It reminds me of when Toyin of Ligali was in debate with some asians after the fiasco in Birmingham a while back, there was all this going on about asian and black communities when Toyin had to say stop, what are yo talking about, someone has died here.
Up until 14 years old Dwaine (who died) was a model son. I and many can tell you the children of that family were impeccably mannered. Visitors would be shocked at how polite and courteous all the children were. Dwaine was a year ahead in subjects like French but it's like things literally changed over night...and four years later he's dead.
But going back to certain realities of how things actually are on a day to day basis in these scenarios. A big reality is that so many of these children live a lifetime in as short a time as four years. You here some stories and it's like you're hearing tales from 30-40 year old men. Many of these children think they are more mature than their parents...there are boys thinking they are bigger than their dads because not even their dads have been to jail yet. It's like while growing up, the things the parents would warn them about like prison are meaningless because now they have been there done that and are wearing the t-shirt...and as a consequence it's like there is nothing the parents can tell these children anymore.
I grew up with one brotha who could switch into murder mode at the drop of a hat but even he's seen the error of his ways and changed things round. He has sons on the wrong side of the law and when he tried to pull one up about it, for all the dads past tales of what he used to get up to in his time and where it leads, the son said to him, that's old time bad man stories, you lot can't really test us bad man of today. When you are dealing with youths who see this as a way of life, accept the reduced life expectancy and even more can philosophize with you toe to toe in defence of it, only then will you appreciate how much we as adults and how much the system with their materialistic money monkey madness has failed them.
To think, one minute a man is trying to find somewhere to live thinking the whole world is against him then the next minute he is preparing to bury his son. I told him I believe in equilibrium, that life balances itself out, that 7 years of famine is replaced by seven years of harvest but at this proximity the reality is many lives will never be the same again...there is no harvest that can feed that crippling malnourishment of your soul. After something like this you look to the good times in the past and resign yourself to the fact that those days were as good as it's ever going to get.
Last edited on Sunday May 20th, 2007 14:04 by Incognito
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Happiness
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Posted: Sunday May 20th, 2007 14:39 |
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@ Incognito - your post was very moving....and yet at the heart of your post is the question: what changed?
What made a model son of 14 change in such a way that he is dead 4 year later.
I am not asking you to speak specifically about your friend's son -in fact, I would even say that you should be careful what you post here about the case. But in a general sense, what is happening with our young people that is leading to these types of deadly confrontations?
I truly believe that if you are a black male teenager, it is safer to be in America than in the London right now.
Just my perception.
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If you think that the only way you can survive is in the misuse of people,
then you haven't even begun to think about what it means to be human" ~ Dr C.T.Vivian
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lilsoulful1
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Posted: Sunday May 20th, 2007 18:26 |
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So sad
RIP
My heart truely goes out
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Sunday May 20th, 2007 19:19 |
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Incognito, sorry to hear of your loss........I can't even begin to comprehend how the father must feel..its just soo heartbreaking...
I also share Happiness's curiousity what happened, I think it would be valuable to discuss what CHANGED, especially as we are bound to hear from the renta quote mob, shouting for role models. and for parents to do more.....
It seems however that in this case that charge can't be levelled....
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Incognito
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Posted: Sunday May 20th, 2007 20:27 |
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Happiness/Kunjufu - just came from the hospital/mortuary to see the body. Indeed I can't say too much here especially it being a murder enqiry but as far as what changed I can only say eventually he became a product of 'the' environment and once a product, things the everday person might see as trivial can actually compound the situation creating a snowball effect. And furthermore, what is an 'environment' to some is home to others which is a completely separate dimension with different rules to the home you share with your parents and siblings.
I asked that very question some years back and going by what was said I kind of drew on my own experience and thought the reality is, being in an advanced class learning French, at that age he probably felt lonely...looking around the classroom asking where are all his 'homeboys' to the degree he probably felt more at home with his peers on the street - there he feels less of an odd one out.
I remember some time ago suggesting we take a trip to Kenya and climb mount Kilamanjaro or something - my thinking was the experience might change the perspective of some of our lost youths - this was based on how humbling I found my visit to the Grand Canyon and how miracles of nature can make you feel so insignificant. Again the feedback really reinforces the reality of the minds you are dealing with...you'd be better of spending the money on some play station games simply because minds at that stage are not ready for humbling...in extreme cases you almost have to appease the mentality and hope it comes out good in the end.
This conversation lead to the realisation of further realities of how sad our lives are where as hard working parents we have to think two or three times as to whether it's 'safe' to buy our children a friggin games cartridge for fear of the potential negative influence....and the more we get absorbed in these ridiculous realities the more they soon become normal.
I like to think that it's times like this that families are tight but then I always look back to the Stephen Lawrence murder and how it made the parents end up divorced. But if nothing else the dad is a soldier, he has to be. It's quite ironic that me and him were both going through domestic dramas at the same time and one thing we both appreciated is that we can't let it get the better of us because we still need to be around to help others going through worse.
Last edited on Sunday May 20th, 2007 20:30 by Incognito
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Posted: Sunday May 20th, 2007 22:40 |
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Youth Stabbed To Death In Incident Updated: 20:52, Sunday May 20, 2007
A teenager who died an hour after admitting himself to hospital with knife wounds has been named by police.Dwaine Douglas, 18, of Tulse Hill, south London, died on
Friday night after arriving at the Mayday Hospital.
Stabbed: Dwaine Douglas
Police are treating Mr Douglas' death as murder and three teenagers investigated in connection with the incident have been released on police bail to June 4.
Mr Douglas was admitted to hospital with a 16-year-old youth who was suffering from superficial knife injuries.
Medical staff called the police about the two teenagers and officers arrested the 16-year-old in connection with the incident after he was discharged.
Two others, aged 16 and 19, have also been arrested in connection with the investigation.A post-mortem examination gave the cause of death as a stab wound.
Police believe the stabbing could be linked to an incident involving a number of men in Parchmore Road, Thornton Heath, at 10pm near the Tesco car park.
Norman Brennan, of the Victims of Crime Trust, said: "We have to make the carrying of knives as anti-social as carrying guns.
"When you take into account knife homicides outnumber gun homicides three to one, this is well overdue."
Last edited on Sunday May 20th, 2007 22:41 by Incognito
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Incognito
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Posted: Sunday May 20th, 2007 22:48 |
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Product of environment and family:
We need to appreciate the notion of family within these street circles. As a member/brotha, you may not be doing things yourself but others in your family are. As a brotha, you may simply be giving another brotha within this family a helping hand and end up getting struck down yourself....almost on his behalf. Within this fraternity, it's stances like this which actually defines the concept of family...and this is why as long as a 'family' member is still standing, the cycle of killing will never stop!
Man the last time I saw this boy alive, he just got his new mountain bike and he was outside his house sitting on it wearing his helmet. I met up with an old acquaintence also visiting the dad who kind of went on separate ways but showed up on hearing the news - he said the last memory he had of Dwaine was holding him in his arms not long after he was born.
The dad has so much answers to find he can't even mourn!
Found some comments which I guess most are typical on hearing news through the media.
http://www.wimbledonguardian.co.uk/news/topstories/display.var.1411758.0.update_teenager_stabbed_to_death.php
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Voluptuousbabe
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Posted: Sunday May 20th, 2007 23:33 |
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I dont know what to say
R.I.P Little Man
My brother was shot dead in November, my brother was only 20 years old.
I have a sense of what the family must be feeling like now, even six months later not a day has gone pass, that i have not cried about it.
I would not say our life as a family has be great, we grew up in a council house, single parent, etc etc
However I have always wanted a better life, and worked hard to go to uni etc
But my brothers, they were good up to a certain time, and then about 14/15, they just got mixed up in all the hype, I dont know what changed them?
What could my mum have done different for her sons?
These kids need to realise, that this life is not the way.
Last edited on Monday May 21st, 2007 11:21 by Voluptuousbabe
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Posted: Monday May 21st, 2007 01:23 |
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It hurts to hear stories like this. Incognito, I dont have any special words to say or anything but you have my sympathy.
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Incognito
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Posted: Monday May 21st, 2007 06:31 |
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voluptuousbabe - your words bring home some other truths. When I say up to the age of 14, this is kind of influenced by the time I actually last saw Dwaine on a regular basis, and as far as where did it change goes, to his parents and in the family home, for the most part he was the same boy they raised. I remember the dad telling me it's kind of hard to know what to do, his children are all the same children he brought up, none of them bring anything negative home to the house.
Another thing we need to appreciate is the suddeness of change and how it can pull the rug from under your feet. You raise your children a certain way day in day out for 14 years, the results are perfect, as a parent you're comfortable, your strategy is a proven success, you feel comfortable knowing that at least you don't have to worry about the decorum of your children, they are that disciplined all they have to focus on is their schooling - then you wake up one morning to discover the last 14 years did not 'work', how do you change this way of upbringing overnight?
When you say what more can the parents do this is where I say as adults and a society we have all failed these children because we have not taken the responsibility to ensure the infrastructure is in place to provide alternatives for them - we have left that allternative in the hands of the system and that alternative is the streets. The parents in many cases can't do anymore more and you know they have tried their best because in many cases they have raised other children under the same umbrella who haven't got caught up in all the bull.
As adults we have failed as a community because if one of our sons is going through certain dilemmas, collectively we should be abl to send him up to the hills for a chill pill and some meditation but the reality is those close enough will be hurting, the outside minority of the minority will be touched enough to pass on their condolences but the majority will be standing by praising heaven just glad it wasn't their child.
It's pure madness and it's bigger than parenting. I heard of scenarios where children were at war and the dads who as parents are getting caught up in the mix as legal representatives, are friends who grew up in the same year and class at school and going to court they don't even believe what they are hearing being said about their children and can't believe it is the same children they grew and raised.
Last edited on Monday May 21st, 2007 06:39 by Incognito
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Melissa
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Posted: Monday May 21st, 2007 10:30 |
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Incognito you have my condolences for your loss. My heart goes out to your friend and his family.
Your words here so far have been very moving and enlightening, at the moment my son, almost 13 is the model child as Dwaine was. Could this happen to my son in a couple of years time?
I feel for your friend, espcially his helplessness at foreseeing this outcome and being powerless to stop it.
Obviously you can not say too much, but i am eager to find out what could have possibly influenced him into badness when he was so good for so long.
RIP Dwaine Douglas
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Posted: Monday May 21st, 2007 12:32 |
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@Incognito
Am at work and read this and had to log in remotely to pass my condolences on to that boy's family and yourself.
This is a deeply deeply distressing, frustrating situation.
I feel even worse to learn the father was existing with the expectation that something bad would eventually befall his son...
I can only hope that our teenage readers see this thread and get some insight into what their parents go through...
What a nightmare...
Rest in Peace Young Brothaman.
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I can give away everything I possess;
But if I'm without love
Then I have no happiness...
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Posted: Monday May 21st, 2007 12:47 |
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Man, we live very confrontational lives these days, and yes young black males are probably the most confrontational of them all.
We need to teach more of our young boys how to diffuse confrontation, and that there's no shame in living to fight another day.
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Vezz.
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Posted: Monday May 21st, 2007 16:35 |
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I think what's scary is the fact that Dwaine was a model son until the age of 14, then seemed to switch.
My corner shop was robbed twice, at gunpoint, within 3 days a few weeks ago, plus there has been a spate of burglaries, with the common theme being they're all Black. So, they're robbing us and killing each other - what do we do?
It seems the problem is bigger than us parents, bigger than their education, bigger than their life itself. How can we help these children if they don't even value their OWN lives, much less anyone else's?
I was going to move out of the area, only to find the problem is endemic and will reach the leafy suburbs soon enough..indeed, I heard a story a boy whose mother moved out to Shirley from Thornton Heath, only for her son to murder another boy in Addiscombe. He just "commuted".
I feel so helpless and at such a loss as to what to do.
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Posted: Monday May 21st, 2007 18:09 |
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Bless you all for the words and to continue where some have left off, the dads expectation, rather than a foreboding premonition, it was more an enhanced worry that any parent has for their children..a bit like worrying about them crossing the road for the first time on their own....or a worry that you may have done a good job raising your children but you still have to share the world with those who have not. In all honesty it's more of a sanity check to keep you sane if worse becomes worse and it leaves you seriously wondering whether these losses are truly a luck of the draw thing or some kind of natural selection process.
Growing up, friends of mine were going to jail but none of them were really bad, it was more the case of too much people together with nothing much to do can lead to mischief which might be games to you but in the eyes of the law it's a crime. But after you have been incarcerated it's like a scar for life which can become a waay of life. Job and criminal record don't mix, even more so if you are black.
Most boys like Dwaine would not be classed as bad, and even the 'change' for the most part is just a phase which for one reason or another some are more susceptible to than others - and in some cases it simply spirals out of control. This is where the system is so against those caught up in it because they only know these children as entries in their 'criminal' database...not as someones child..and you can see it already the system didn't expect dwaine to have a dad.
As adults most of my friends can relate to that phase, even me I remember getting into a fight with some friends at a party where knives were flashing and bottles being broken over heads. By rights me and my friends never should have left that place alive. It was like us against an entire block of flats....all for pinching some girls bottom. Well I say us, I was more trying to break up the fighting but others were well in.
In another party me and the door man caught up. He punched me in the face I was so high on drink it was kind of surreal and I found myself asking did he just hit me. I looked around and like magic I saw all these people I was at college with there in the same rave, there must have been at least twenty of them and they all had my back. When I gave them the run down of what happened they all wanted to rush this doorman. He tried to leave but we caught up with him on the streets. I had some friends telling me to rush him and while I do that they will come in and stab him up - and they were well serious. When I confronted the doorman, all I saw was another African brotha. I looked at the posse behind me and I felt sorry for the dude. I looked him in the eye and told him if I was a different person he'd be dead....think I stopped drinking not too long after.
Another friend threw a brick in a party after he was denied entry and got rushed by about a dozen men. All I could hear were the grunts from him receiving blows..it reminded me of the grunts I heard when I witnessed a stabbing. This time I was the only acquaintence to see it and ended up rushing into the middle to shield and protect him...though on this particular occassion I was a lot older than 18.
Now these tales are as common as muck. I'm sure many here can share their stories and in any one of these situations me or someone else could have lost their lives...but all the same, isolated incidences not a way of life. What makes this case even worse for the dad is as much as people can say his son being there on Friday is proof he was in the wrong crowd, as far as any so called badness is concerned, you could say his son had gone through the worse, the phase was done and the person he really was pulled through - but it's like past associations remain current...and it's that what can get you in the end. I grew up with younger brothers and saw both of them go through this phase but rather than lose the plot I always said let them have their time...it's almost a rite of passage.
Like Vezz, I've always said if my children become a product of their environment I must be in a position where I can move them out. When it comes to this natural selection theory, me and the dad speak about how he was a phone call away from
taking all his children to JA......but what if he done that for his son to lose his life out there..everyone would be saying he was better off staying here. Another friend moved his children out of London only for his son to be up in court for attempted murder in his new location....after racking your brains in trying to find answers many are left believing some things were just meant to be.
The lure comes in many guises for some it's |
