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Miss Nellia
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Posted: Tuesday April 25th, 2006 17:48 |
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Dear oh dear, how did this interesting thread get soooooooooo off topic??????
@Burningspear
Why the need to insult us here in the UK? totally unnecessary. How did the talks of a bomb attached to the plane turn into a AA vs BB discussion.
p.s
I am in total disagreement with the conspircy theory bit, and I am in the UK!! 
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Prince Hakeem
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Posted: Tuesday April 25th, 2006 23:22 |
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@Miss Nellia
Don't worry about that idiot. It's clear from some of his previous posts he doesn't know his piss from his orange juice....
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Miss Nellia
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Posted: Tuesday April 25th, 2006 23:48 |
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Prince Hakeem wrote: @Miss Nellia
Don't worry about that idiot. It's clear from some of his previous posts he doesn't know his piss from his orange juice....
@ Prince................Naughty!!!
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Le Moor
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Posted: Wednesday April 26th, 2006 07:18 |
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Miss Nellia wrote: Vubundada_Kandaba wrote:
@Le Moor, I watched the second video but could not open the first one. But here is what I got from the lecture. There explanations would, key word would make sense to lay man/woman but not to most scientists and engineers. But I am not convinced nor impressed one bit. The available data they got was an example of a steel oven cooking bread and then you got them asking questions like why wouldn't the oven melt? This is not sound engineering examples and fails miserably. To begin with first, we have never had an example of any building/s in the World apart from the World Trade Centers that were hit by fast moving jumbo jets travelling at 750 mile/hour more or less filled up with jet fuel so there is no comparison here. Second, the steel columns in the buildings are laid vertical and are in series. So the impact of the collision of the plane and the relative explosion of the planes onto the building weakens the column from the top down because they are interconnected. So any forces will travel up and down the length of the columns.
Concerning the World Trade Center building seven (7) that collapsed seven (7) hours later, that is a different case. Notice how they concentrated most if not all of their arguments on this building and they just briefly mentioned the two (2) actual towers that were actually hit. This building 7 was on fire and suffered structural damage as a result of the two towers that collapsed earlier. Now if that building was destroyed using controlled demolition as they suggest, then first how comes no one heard TNT dynamites going off prior to the building falling? Second, how comes there are no wires on the ground several hundred meters long leading to the controls for the dynamites as we see in controll demolition? Third, nobody and the key word here is nobody carried tests on the steel and rubble of the World Trade centers. All these so called experts were looking at video pictures as evidence and then trying to come with rational explanations which do not carry weight at all. Real scientist and engineers present hard data to support their claims which I did not see in the video. All they had to support their case was speculation based on pictures. Not one of them was on the ground to collect evidence and carry out test.
Source: http://www.9eleven.info/911JonesPaperhtm7.htm
Large quantities of molten metal were observed in basement areas under rubble piles of all three buildings: the Twin Towers and WTC7. The following video clip provides eye-witness with firefighters evidence regarding this metal at ground zero: http://plaguepuppy.net/public_html/video%20archive/red_hot_ground_zero_low_quality.wmv . The photograph below shows a chunk of the hot metal being removed from the North Tower rubble about eight weeks after 9-11. The colour of the lower portion of the extracted metal -- this tells us much about the temperature of the metal and provides important clues regarding its composition, as we shall see.
The reasons for advancing the explosive-demolition hypothesis while challenging the “official� fire-caused collapse hypothesis are these:
1. There are several published observations of molten metal in the basements of all three buildings, WTC 1, 2 (“Twin Towers�) and 7.
The observation of molten metal at Ground Zero was emphasized publicly by Leslie Robertson, the structural engineer responsible for the design of the World Trade Center Towers, who reported that “As of 21 days after the attack, the fires were still burning and molten steel was still running.� (Williams, 2001, p. 3; emphasis added.)
The observed surface of this metal is still reddish-orange some six weeks after 9-11. This implies a large quantity of a metal with fairly low heat conductivity and a relatively large heat capacity even in an underground location. Like magma in a volcanic cone, such metal can remain hot and molten for a long time -- once the metal is sufficiently hot to melt in large quantities and then kept in an underground location.
The observer notes that the observed surface of this metal is still reddish-orange some six weeks after 9-11. This implies a large quantity of a metal with fairly low heat conductivity and a relatively large heat capacity even in an underground location. Like magma in a volcanic cone, such metal can remain hot and molten for a long time -- once the metal is sufficiently hot to melt in large quantities and then kept in an underground location.
Thus, molten metal was repeatedly observed and formally reported in the rubble piles of the WTC Towers and WTC 7, metal that looked like molten steel. Scientific analysis, using for example X-ray fluorescence, would be needed to ascertain the actual composition of the molten metal.
I maintain that these observations are consistent with the use of the high-temperature thermite reaction or some variation thereof, used to cut or demolish steel. Thermite is a mixture of iron oxide and aluminum powder. The end products of the thermite reaction are aluminum oxide and molten iron. So the thermite reaction generates molten iron directly, and is hot enough to melt and even evaporate steel which it contacts while reacting. Use of sulfur in conjunction with the thermite should accelerate the destructive effect on steel, and sulfidation of structural steel was indeed observed in some of the few recovered members from the WTC rubble.
On the other hand, falling buildings (absent explosives) have insufficient directed energy to result in melting of large quantities of metal. The government reports admit that the building fires were insufficient to melt steel beams -- then where did the molten metal come from? Metals expert Dr. Frank Gayle (working with NIST) stated:
Your gut reaction would be the jet fuel is what made the fire so very intense, a lot of people figured that's what melted the steel. Indeed it did not, the steel did not melt. (Field, 2005; emphasis added.)
None of the official reports tackles this mystery. Yet this is evidently a significant clue to what caused the Towers and WTC 7 to collapse. So I would very much like to see an analysis of the elemental composition of the metal, and could do this myself if a small sample were made available according to scientific courtesy.
Even without a direct elemental analysis, we can rule out some metals based on available data. The photograph in the introduction shows a chunk of the hot slag being extracted at ground zero. The hottest portion of the chunk is the lower portion, which was deepest down in the slag, and the metal is seen to be yellow-hot, certainly above cherry-red hot. The following table (see http://www.processassociates.com/process/heat/metcolor.htm) provides data regarding the melting temperatures of lead, aluminum, structural steel and iron, along with approximate metal temperatures by color.
We see from the photograph above that solid metal slag existed at salmon-to-yellow-hot temperature (approx. 1550 - 1900 oF, 845 - 1040 oC.) The temperature is well above the melting temperatures of lead and aluminum, and these metals can evidently be ruled out since they would be runny liquids at much lower (cherry-red or below) temperatures. However, the observed hot specimen could be structural steel (from the building) or iron (from a thermite reaction) or a combination of the two. Additional photographs of the hot metal could provide further information and advance the research.
Are there any examples of buildings toppled by fires or any reason other than deliberate demolition that show large pools of molten metal in the rubble? I have posed this question to numerous engineers and scientists, but so far no examples have emerged. Strange then that three buildings in Manhattan, supposedly brought down finally by fires, all show these large pools of molten metal in their basements post-collapse on 9-11-2001. It would be interesting if underground fires could somehow produce molten steel, for example, but then there should be historical examples of this effect since there have been many large fires in numerous buildings. It is not enough to argue hypothetically that fires could possibly cause all three pools of molten metal.
Furthermore, we have published reports that "molten steel [or other metal] flowed in the pile of ruins still settling beneath her feet" -- how could building fires have caused that effect? Has it ever been seen before?
The very high temperatures of the molten or previously-molten metal implied by the data are difficult to explain in the context of the official theory that fires finally caused the collapse of the WTC Towers and WTC 7. Highly exothermic chemical reactions other than hydrocarbon fires, such as the thermite reaction which produces molten iron as an end product, are implied by the data. The official reports by NIST, FEMA and the 9-11 Commission strikingly omit mention of large quantities of molten metal observed in the basement areas of WTC 7 and the Towers. Further investigation is strongly motivated.
2. As you observed (above), WTC 7 collapsed rapidly and symmetrically -- even though fires were randomly scattered in the building. WTC 7 fell about seven hours after the Towers collapsed, even though no major persistent fires were visible. There were twenty-four huge steel support columns inside WTC 7 as well as huge trusses, arranged asymmetrically, along with approximately 57 perimeter columns. (FEMA, 2002, chapter 5.) A symmetrical collapse, as observed, evidently requires the simultaneous “pulling� of many of the support columns. The Second Law of Thermodynamics implies that the likelihood of complete and symmetrical collapse due to random fires as in the “official� theory is small, since asymmetrical failure is so much more likely. On the other hand, a major goal of controlled demolition using explosives is the complete and symmetrical collapse of buildings.
Last edited on Wednesday April 26th, 2006 07:21 by Le Moor
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Miss Nellia
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Posted: Wednesday April 26th, 2006 19:34 |
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Hmmmmm Le Moor, now that's food for thought.... but still has a ring of smoke screen around it to me.
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Le Moor
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Posted: Wednesday April 26th, 2006 20:07 |
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Miss Nellia wrote: Hmmmmm Le Moor, now that's food for thought.... but still has a ring of smoke screen around it to me.
With the American Government and the CIA anything is possible. MN did you watch the videos, what did you make of the helicpoters?.
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Miss Nellia
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Posted: Wednesday April 26th, 2006 20:50 |
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Le Moor wrote: Miss Nellia wrote: Hmmmmm Le Moor, now that's food for thought.... but still has a ring of smoke screen around it to me.
With the American Government and the CIA anything is possible. MN did you watch the videos, what did you make of the helicpoters?.
@ Le M
Just watched the videos, first thing that struck me the speed at which the helicopters moved, seemed unnatural. There were only two helicopters that appeared to move that the correct speed given the height & distance. Secondly the flashes appeard to come from the towers which would indicate to me that heat caused something to explode, a gas line, or something in the plane's engine.
It also occured to me that with all of the media attention, is it not possible that the media sent copters up to get a first hand glimpse, up close? Remember how long it took for the Air Force to arrive on the scene?
There are at least 3-4 helicopters that may have been fake, the helicopters where imported onto the film.
but hey what do I know, I am no expert???? Would be interesting to get VK's take on the evidence you provided though.
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Vubundada_Kandaba
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Posted: Thursday April 27th, 2006 03:45 |
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@Le Moor,
I believe it is healthy to question what we are told and we must not take things at face value. However when we do ask questions of what we were told by governments, I believe our questions should be put across in an intelligent manner; similar to the way you have consistently put your questions across with some data that might make sense; as oppose to the missile in underbelly of plane and firing missile theory by others. Interesting article you brought here. But as usual there are holes that I can see from a mile away. It is true the US government and the CIA are capable of un-imaginable evil but I don't thing they will go to such extent to commit murder of more than 3500 people and almost causing the economy to free fall.
(1) I am no structural or demolition expert, but my knowledge lies in Petroleum engineering with Mechanical engineering combined, but nevertheless we all use steel for our structures and trade. To my understanding it takes weeks even months, worth of preparation to bring down a normal size building like a large shopping center by controlled demolition. Now compound that amount of time to a building the size of the WTC tower. Compound that time to two (2) towers (one of the tallest in the World) and a third tower, WTC-7 which is 47 stories tall. To prepare all the WTC towers for controlled demolition would have taken at least 6 months of work in plain daylight with workers working from 6 am - 6 pm. Somehow we are to believe that the government was able to pull that right in front of us with no one noticing what was going on. You see why I am not buying this theory. Further more it would have been very risky for the government to wire the buildings for demolition because what would have been there explanation if charges went off un-intentionally? I still can't imagine there was some-one sitting somewhere in a controlled room pressing buttons and setting off charges.
I still believe that after the plane impact and subsequent explosion and fire, the steel beam were weakened and lost some of its strenght. Even at a temperature of 1000 oF, steel looses half of its strength. The beam were anable to support the floors due to the loss of strengh and the floors of the buildings began to cramble one after that other just as we saw on TV. Since the upper floors that were hit fell onto the lower parts below, the impact of the falling of the floors from above onto the ones at the bottom provided no resistance to keep from a chain floor crambling reaction. Steel does not have to melt inorder for it to fail as is in the case of WTC buildings. Even at temperatures of about 1000 oF they can become weak enough to be twisted. In the old days, blacksmith use to heat steel and iron with wood and then twist the iron or steel to any shape they want just like plastic or rubber.
(2) Molten metal observation. Building any large structure the size of the World Trade Center requires tons and tons of steel. I read somewhere that the San Francisco Bridge (Golden Gate Bridge) has enough steel strands to circle the globe (I stand to be corrected). When the buildings collapsed, a large rubble was left with fire still burning underneath. Further-more the rubble acts like an insulation thus keeping what is beneath it hot for as long as there is enough heat to sustain it. The authors of the paper you posted suggested key word suggested that possibly a thermite reaction was used to melt the WTC steel beams. A thermite reaction is a chemical reaction in which a metal is oxidized by the oxide of another metal most commonly iron oxide. One possible use of this reaction is in welding of machines and structures, building of ships and railraod tracks and steel structures. Thermite reactions can occur in the absence of oxygen and they produce enormous heat capable of melting steel, nobody can deny that. But here are what makes me still a skeptic.
***If a themite reaction was used then it would have to be used at the base of the buildings to melt and vaporize the steel thus the building would have crumbled from the base. That was not what we saw. The bulding fell from the TOP DOWN.
***To my understanding a thermite reaction happens quickly and it would not have taken long to melt the steel structures. However the WTC buldings burned for hours ( not sure here) to my knowledge before crumbling. Furthermore a thermite reaction releases an enormous amount of sparks when it reacts particularly with steel which we did not see.
***How were the thermite which is iron oxide and aluminum introduced to the steel beams? In most buildings the steel columns are insulated by concrete cement walls except at the base of the building in some cases. You would have to cut through the walls to reach the beams on all the floors of the buildings. Let us not forget that the molten stuff we saw could have been molten plastics or other materials that are used in the buildings, who knows.
Here is a quote of some skeptics to the thermite theory.
"The longstanding industry standard for steel skyscrapers was to use spray-on asbestos in order to fire-proof the steel. Otherwise, unprotected steel will warp, melt, sag and ultimately collapse when heated to normal fire temperatures around 1100 to 1200 degrees Fahrenheit.
The North Tower was built first, and asbestos was applied in this manner up to its 64th floor. Then hysteria about asbestos broke loose.
The inventor of the asbestos spray being used in the North Tower, Herbert Levine, was despondent. Harvard physics professor emeritus Richard Wilson heard Levine make the following prediction more than once: "If a fire breaks out above the 64th floor [of the North Tower], that building will fall down." The insulation was designed to protect the building from collapse for four hours, which would have save many hundreds or thousands of trapped occupants. Professor Wilson noted that "Levine's product has never been shown to cause trouble to anybody."
Brooklyn College environmental scientist Arthur Langer, who once supported Dr. Selikoff's claims, was quoted in the New York Times September 18 as saying, "In retrospect, considering the recent events...I wonder if the performance characteristics of the replacement material were as good." Dr. Selikoff's successor at Mount Sinai, Dr. Philip Landrigan, conceded that the quality of non-asbestos insulation is "a legitimate question." Last edited on Thursday April 27th, 2006 07:04 by Vubundada_Kandaba
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Miss Nellia
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Posted: Thursday April 27th, 2006 18:44 |
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@VK
Interesting read.
If you look at Le Moor's footage, you will see in total 7 helicopters (I think), at least one helicopter disappeared and then there was a flash and the first tower collapsed, then you could see the copter flying away. Now I'm no expert but looking at the footage it just doesn't make sense.
I see what your saying about controlled demolitions, if they do take that long to plan one, then how could a helicopter bring down two towers with just a couple of flashes at the top of the building, would there not have to be explosions at the base of buildings too? And as you say, why would the U.S government risk killing 3500 in broad daylight, in the view of the world's media and sending its economy into a spiral??? I know it's not impossible but unlikely.
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Vubundada_Kandaba
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Posted: Thursday April 27th, 2006 23:42 |
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@Miss Nellia,
I have not looked at the video footage provided by Le Moor, but I will download it and see for myself. I think the helicopters possibly belongs to the News Media as you mentioned earlier. In Los Angelos for example, if there is a car chase going on by the police, there are usually dozens of helicopters in the air with each TV station trying to out-do each other. Not to mention helicopters that belong to the police. But I will watch the footage.
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Burning Spear
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Posted: Friday April 28th, 2006 05:14 |
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Nothing surprises me on what any government will do but the level of ignorance on this post from the majority of brain dead Black Brits is staggering.The brother laid how theWTC fell.But you people still bleeive the missile theory which has been shot to hell many times .
Let's just accept what it was.A well thought out and planned attacked by bin Laden.Nothing more,nothing less.
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Le Moor
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Posted: Friday April 28th, 2006 07:21 |
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Burning Spear wrote: Nothing surprises me on what any government will do but the level of ignorance on this post from the majority of brain dead Black Brits is staggering.The brother laid how theWTC fell.But you people still bleeive the missile theory which has been shot to hell many times .
Let's just accept what it was.A well thought out and planned attacked by bin Laden.Nothing more,nothing less.
Theres nothing more brain dead than your attempts in trying to railroad us with your school of thought on a discussion forum.
You dont believe there is a conspiracy, fair enough, but just leave it there. Everyones entitled to their opinion especially as no-one can guarentee us the truth around your corrupt nation.
Last edited on Friday April 28th, 2006 07:25 by Le Moor
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King Tubbs
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Posted: Friday April 28th, 2006 16:24 |
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Burning Spear wrote: Nothing surprises me on what any government will do but the level of ignorance on this post from the majority of brain dead Black Brits is staggering.The brother laid how theWTC fell.But you people still bleeive the missile theory which has been shot to hell many times .
Let's just accept what it was.A well thought out and planned attacked by bin Laden.Nothing more,nothing less.
I dont buy this missile theory, but I always give credit to someone prepared to ask questions.
I feel theres still more to this 9/11 story than meets the eye, I dont pretend to know all the answers but I think 9/11 is our generations JFK assassination.
Most people at the time accepted a lone crazy nut named Lee Harvey Oswald shot Kennedy whereas today most peopel doubt his guilt, and even many who think he did it dont accept he was working all alone.
You say accept it was a well thought out plan by Bin Laden.....wheres the proof?? He has NEVER claimed or accepted responsibilty and there is ZERO proof those 19 arabs they say did it where actually on the planes, and some arab newspapers claim to have found some the 19 allegedly responsible alive and well!!!
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Le Moor
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Posted: Monday May 1st, 2006 12:02 |
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Vubundada_Kandaba wrote: @Le Moor,
It is true the US government and the CIA are capable of un-imaginable evil but I don't thing they will go to such extent to commit murder of more than 3500 people and almost causing the economy to free fall.
The motive is all important.
Since 9-11 we have had an invasion of Afghanistan resulting in the removal of the Taliban and the invasion of Iraq resulting in the removal of Sadam Hussain.
Both of these conclusive factors have improved the bargaining power and potential control of Oil supply from the Middle-Eastern regions. They certainly havent lessened the threat of terror attacks which is what we are told is the reasoning behind both invasions. Without 9-11 Sadam and the Taliban would still be in place.
Of course it hit the Ecomony hard but maybe at small price when compared to losing out to OIL supplies at too high a price when Sadam decides he wants to play hard ball.
It did hit the Economy hard but not entirely. The Dow Jones which you could say represents the US Economy fell to around 7500 points. A year later it was touching almost 10,000 and now its approx 11400 points. This effectively represents each company making billions of Dollars in profits after their initial losses. It means American comapnies were able to ride the gravy train all the way back up to the top again and get fat within the process. Who cares about yesterdays losses when you have todays gains.
You say why would they kill 3500 people. Evil men dont percieve it as so. They see it as 3500 people sacrificed for a good cause......the survival of their country and race. The root to theses motives are no different than those which have gone before us including slavery. Which is why i simply cant dismiss them without exploration.
So there you have a quite a plausable motive imo, however it doesnt guarentee actuality.
Last edited on Monday May 1st, 2006 12:14 by Le Moor
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Fine1952
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Posted: Monday May 1st, 2006 17:19 |
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The entire 911 fiasco was staged from start to finish. The victims were considered a sustainable loss...to start a war that will never end...!
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/april2006/210406runattack.htm
http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/
http://www.flight93crash.com/
Last edited on Monday May 1st, 2006 17:24 by Fine1952
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