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Rusengo Villager
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Posted: Monday January 16th, 2006 13:04 |
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The Trauma of Growing Up Gay (part one)
Homosexuality is in and of itself not pathological; and like heterosexuality, it is a complex expression of multiple personal and historical meanings.
The gay-affirmative psychological literature has been helpful in understanding and exploring what it is like growing up gay. It means being scapegoated, shamed, ridiculed, and hidden. It also means internalizing negative self-esteem, managing it, and growing to an acceptance of oneself.
We wish to take a look at the childhood of gay men. "Not being queer" is a central organizing principle in our culture. Every young boy's experience is shaped and formed within this framework. The young boy, who later identifies himself as gay, begins his life within this "reality". This has potent implications for the development of his own sexual identity.
Gay men often report some awareness of "being different" that started fairly early in life (e.g., well before puberty, often as early as 4, 5, or 6). In looking back, they can appreciate and tie this feeling into their current differentiated and formed gay identity. How do we begin to grasp the nature of this child's experience? This poignant feeling of "differentness" appears particularly tied to one's gender-atypical behavior.
Many more complex processes are also going on in more subtle, less conscious ways. One such process is the lack of mirroring responsiveness to one's early, emerging sexual and affectionate expressions. It is the same-sex erotic fantasies centering on the father (often later repressed) that initially make these children feel so different and reprehensible.
The proto-gay boy often, from an early age, has some beginning awareness of feeling different. He also, to varying degrees, begins to connect this differnentness with something forbidden, terrible, unthinkable. This may perhaps come in a momentary flash or it may be a continual fear; it may be conscious or it may be primarily unconscious. The hatred, hostility, and vehemence with which people around him manifest when using words like faggot, sissy, queer, whether directed at him or others, coupled with his own undeveloped, distorted understanding of these terms, presents a unique situation.
Unlike being Black or Jewish, the gay man as a child is both typically alone with his "differentness," as well as often unclear, confused, conflicted, and horrified by "it". Unlike the Black child whose parents are typically also Black or the Jewish child with Jewish parents and relatives, the proto-gay child typically not only does not have gay parents, but also doesn't even know what "gay" is except as very nebulous and very negative thing. It (his "gayness") either remains unobvious to the outside world and is then "managed" internally alone with varying degrees of consciousness and unconsciousness. Alternatively, it becomes obvious to the external world and is met with intense disapproval and ridicule; further increasing the shame and fear, all of which is almost always also "managed" alone. Unable to react emotionally and/or thoughtfully to the traumatic event, the individual is then forced to keep its presence undigested and powerfully influential, albeit out of consciousness. There is not a sympathetic person to share his feelings with or his own ability to appreciate the injustice of his situation. His numerous injuries, overt or covert, that often occur daily are "suffered in silence". Whether he is overtly ridiculed for being different or covertly hears ridicule and rejection for being different in a way he suspects and fears he might be, or tries to prove to himself that he's not different, these are all injuries that are typically suffered alone, silently, sometimes consciously, often unconsciously. Can this boy voice his tormenting secret? It is unlikely for many reasons. Certainly as a child the "secret" is typically a secret to oneself: poorly understood, dimly realized, fearfully avoided, rationalized, reacted against. Hence, even the private emotional reactions often get aborted, e.g., tears, lamentations, rage, blowing off steam, thoughts of revenge. Can this boy repair his injury or must he accept it? Again, can he correct his memory of humiliation by appreciating his own worth?
The above-mentioned tasks require very complex and highly developed capabilities, clearly beyond the capacities of most 5-year-olds. The ability to empathize with oneself and appreciate that the world's rejection and ridicule is wrong, unfair, unjust, and hence have sympathetic tears or rage, while maintaining a consistent and reliable sense of self-esteem: Who could expect a 5-year-old to accomplish this without enormous external support?
As a result of this inability to react, the traumatic events then become subject to a splitting of consciousness or dissociation. These traumatic experiences are laid down as unconscious memory traces, powerfully influential, reactivated later in life.
A sense of "feeling different" is difficult enough, but when one intuitively senses that it might be related to some of the most taboo, frightening, despised images in our culture, as well as in one's own family, then this is surely too emotionally overstimulating as well as confusing for the young proto-gay child. The boy who feels generally valued and approved of in his family, who hears his parents viciously talk about "faggots," receives unarticulated trauma that gets structured internally, remains and affects the gay adolescent and adult later on in life.
The "coming-out" the very gradual process of beginning to identify oneself as gay, to slowly accepting oneself as gay, and simultaneously disclosing this identity to others: this is an enormously complex process that touches one to the core. It is not merely a series of discrete events leading to increasing self-disclosure (as gay) and reduced isolation and emergent support. The sophisticated gay adult within a large urban gay community, who is "out" to himself and others, still has a very rich developmental history. He has laid down internal structures that do not easily vanish or change even with the more current overt support from his community. Even overt support from his family of origin, now finally available in the best of cases, does not "make up" for the early deprivation. In other words, there is still much internal work to be done: the emotional sequelae to lifelong deprivation, isolation, and humiliation do not resolve themselves through social interventions alone.
Abridged from original with permission (Alan Blum, Ph.D. and Van Pfetzing, Ph.D.)
To be continued
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Rusengo Villager
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Posted: Monday January 16th, 2006 13:08 |
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The Trauma of Growing Up Gay (part two)
The following is a case discussion to illustrate some of the major themes of the "Trauma of Growing Up Gay". A 38-year-old gay male attorney, Bud, comes to treatment with an agitated depression of two years duration following the breakup of his first homosexual relationship. The patient encountered his former lover at a meeting where he found himself tongue-tied, unable to converse, ashamed and embarrassed. Bud spent several weeks preoccupied with whether he was "really loved" during this six-month relationship or deceived, manipulated, and exploited. Specifically, he wonders if he was taken advantage of financially. The evidence in support of this position is sparse. As we explored this more deeply, painful insecurities emerged about his own self-worth. This attractive professionally successful gay man was intensely critical and judgmental of himself. Bud compared his own appearance, intelligence, success, and status with that of other individuals. This accounting would always leave him feeling deficient and lacking. His attractions were toward those whom he idealized. He could not register even the more blatant cues when someone he idealized expressed an interest in him. He concluded that no one desirable was attracted to him.
It became clear that Bud felt himself defective and at risk of exposure if he were to become emotionally intimate with another person. His self-sufficiency and detachment pervaded our sessions together. He talked compulsively with little awareness of the therapist's presence; in fact, he typically seemed stunned by any comment from the therapist. It was as if he was in the consulting room alone. His erratic attendance further amplified the detachment and distancing that were so characteristic of his life.
A first awareness of relatedness to the therapist, many months down the line, was his expectation of exploitation, reminiscent of his fears regarding his ex-boyfriend. Over time, these defenses and fears regarding relatedness, which he was originally completely unaware of, began to soften. As this occurred, affect states emerged in primitive, disjointed and frightening ways. The therapist had to tolerate a lot of "not knowing" during this period.
Over time, the intense affect states became labeled and understood as neediness, vulnerability, and wishes for attachment. It became clear that these feelings were deeply intertwined with the threats, rejection, and humiliation that had pervaded his childhood. His resulting internalized sense of defectiveness and crippling shame was central.
Gradually we were able to reconstruct his immersion in a hostile environment at school, subjected to spoken and unspoken criticism, and left to parents who embodied achievement and desirability with no acknowledgment of his own struggles and shortcomings. His parents had been the picture of an ideal couple to the outside world. His father was a successful physician and decorated veteran of World War II. He exuded enthusiasm, confidence, and capability. Bud's mother was beautiful, sociable, and admired. Their desirability in the community contrasted with his own ostracism. Bud existed in their shadow. Until he excelled as a swimmer in his final two years of high school, his father showed no interest in Bud. Bud felt swimming was his first success in a masculine pursuit. Despite this success, Bud felt defective and was left alone within this experience. He still felt it best to avoid exposure to others and to shield himself from the barrage of hostility and hatred directed toward him. He did not have the means to articulate his experience in this isolated and traumatized state.
One cold rainy day later in the treatment, he enters the consulting room with a comment about the "wonderful" weather. He lapses into a quiet reflective reverie, which contrasts with his usual pressured speech. His Associations lead him to memories of his first year in elementary school. On a rainy day, he would feel snug and safe inside the schoolroom focused on a solitary project. As he experienced the comfort of this memory, he identified a dreadful foreboding that intrudes and carries him to further painful recollections. He could feel comfort within the classroom because he had a secured place. His performance in this structured space spared him the threatening exposure he knew awaited him outside. He vividly recalled a classmate's sudden punch to the stomach that took his breath and left him beyond words or tears. The sensation itself immobilized him with no point of reference to organize the experience. The punch was delivered as a challenge to fight and he was disparaged with an unknown word - "sissy." He recalled repeated abuse that left him with a deep sense of alienation, shame, and hurt. He felt himself to be undesirable and different from other children.
This sense of "differentness" was poorly understood, dimly realized, and fearfully avoided. He had a secret that he must hide or he could lose everything in an instant. His social interactions were conceived around self-protection: Never allow anyone to detect his difference, even though he could not identify the defining qualities of his difference. His world had begun to shrink by the early age of 5. He was not free, as the other children appeared to be. He had identified a life or death task that he sensed but could not articulate.
Bud's psychotherapy ultimately provided the opportunity to experience the range of feelings, along with the traumatic circumstances, which had been too painful and disturbing to recollect alone. In fact, his functioning had seemed to depend on forgetting these emotional wounds. Yet as he did remember, he began to experience his own aggression in a freer, more direct way. He recognized how alone he had been as a child and adolescent. This was not to say that he had not had friends or, at times, even been popular. The popularity was based on who others thought he was. He cultivated an image to exclude those very sexual emotional aspects of himself that were not mirrored in childhood. He replicated the same aversion to himself that he had been subjected to from an early age. He lived with constant vigilance and anxiety about being found out. Whom could he have turned to for understanding and support?
The patient consistently began to recall years of accumulated ridicule and ostracism. He dreamed that he was in a social situation in which a young boy was exhibiting a snake. He attempted to move away surreptitiously rather than risk drawing attention to his terror of the snake. He maintained his composure on the surface yet the boy sensed his distress inside and aggressively forced the snake in this direction. He panicked, attempted to flee, but the boy flung the snake toward him. The snake clung to his shoulder. He awoke terrified.
His associations to the dream amplified the long-standing fear he had been left to mange alone throughout his life. The snake-boy recalled the all-powerful and idealized masculinity represented by an exhibitionistic aggressiveness that he felt belonged to other boys and not himself. They could do whatever they pleased. They were unafraid. The patient felt the dream represented his struggle to hide his fear of discovery as different. No one else in the group reacted to any difference in him, but the young boy sensed it, pursued him, and exposed his vulnerability to everyone else.
This dream reflected a turning point in the treatment. It vividly and concretely portrayed his origins. The realization of his utter and complete isolation finally penetrated him in a deeply personal way. He knew at that moment that there was truly no one he could have turned to for understanding and support. These experiences as a child were finally becoming organized, understood, and affectively real. As he recognized his plight, he began to feel compassion for himself. Gradually the compassion replaced the shame that had been so pervasive. Concurrently, his anger began to replace fear, the other dominant affect of his life.
Bud took a roommate into his home. This was his first shared living experience in over twenty years. It became clear in the treatment that Bud had a fantasy love life with his roommate. As he acknowledged these feeling, his shame and fear were mobilized. He anticipated and feared the therapist's critical judgment. It became apparent that his roommate did not reciprocate these feelings. Bud decided to share his struggles with his roommate, who didn't reject him, but acknowledged the limitation of the relationship. These unrequited feelings blossomed into an intense passion that interrupted Bud's typical isolated activities of watching television and video pornography. He began to socialize, partly to manage the intensely emergent pain of his unsatisfied cravings for love. For several months the therapist worked actively to interpret Bud's shame and sense of defectiveness that unconsciously aborted his initiative toward reaching out toward others. As he began to experiment sexually and socially, Bud found that he craved physical contact. His desire to touch and hold was enormous and felt overwhelming at times.
His dissociated traumas had isolated him from huge areas of his inner life, which threatened a recapitulation of helplessness and despair. He had held an aloof contempt for this childhood vulnerability. There was no tenderness for himself as a child; all yearnings for contact and tenderness had been squelched by a terrible fear of punishment and annihilation. He had longed to achieve adulthood as rapidly as possible to escape, or at least limit, his exposure to further abuse.
All these defenses were necessary for his survival as a young child, but left him cut off as an adult from his own emotional world. Consequently, emotional relationships-intimacy threatened to activate his dissociated traumas. Vulnerability, tenderness, the fear of being found out, these were the very things he had worked assiduously to avoid. The patients deep longing for an intimate loving relationship could finally be articulated now that the splits were healed.
Seven years after his treatment began the patient could acknowledge the damage he suffered at the hands of others while growing up. He could feel the reality of the terror, sadness, humiliation, and hurt, but now with compassion for himself. These feeling, as well as the specific memories associated with them, no longer activated a deep shame and sense of deficiency, which he must hide. He could show himself for who he is, imperfections and all.
This integration brought him to realize that he had abused and hurt the one person he had loved so dearly. He had subjected his boyfriend to a harsh, critical scrutiny and pushed him away. He could now tolerate the love that had threatened him then, so many years before. These moments of realization brought tender tears of pain for all the suffering and loss they had both endured. The poignancy of these recognitions was in contrast to his look of utter disbelief when I had originally suggested that his boyfriend had really loved him.
This man had begun treatment as a very detached, disconnected, self-sufficient individual whose elatedness to toners was severely impaired; his dissociations were pervasive and had rendered him a shell of a person. Over the years of treatment, as he began to finally truly experience for the first time, the pervasive traumas of his life as a proto-gay child, he became present, real, connected to himself and the therapist, in ways that had been impossible earlier.
Abridged from original with permission (Alan Blum, Ph.D. and Van Pfetzing, Ph.D.)
Dr. Pfetzing is in private practice in Hollywood, California.
Dr. Blum is in private practice in Brunswick, Main.
Please send your comments to: info@iraniangaydoctors.com
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Rusengo Villager
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Posted: Monday January 16th, 2006 13:19 |
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Invisible, Black & Gay:
When Gay Is The Part That Doesn’t Show
By Chuck Tarver
Creator of the Blackstripe.
This article first appeared in the February, 1989 (Black History Month) issue of the now defunct Delaware Diamond the Gay Newspaper for the First State. It later appeared in the September, 1990 issue of Network the Newsletter of the Black Men’s Support Network, a Delaware Organization for Black gay and bisexual men. Both the organization and newsletter are no longer in existence. The article appeared both times without a byline. I reprint it here with the hope that others will find their voices.
I hate being invisible. Being both Black and gay, I haven’t developed the courage to fight on two battlefields. So I’ve chosen one by default; the obvious one, the easy one, the Black one.
What’s easy about being Black? Nothing, but my struggle for a positive Black identity is filled with support and affirmation. Since the beginning I have had the love of family, the strength of community and the force of history on which to build a foundation. Allies and role models are clearly visible.
As a gay person, I’ve feared losing the love of family, and facing the wrath of community. I’ve searched through an obscure history. Allies are gay friends also trying to remain invisible and straight friends sworn to keep my secret. My best role models, Black lesbians and gay men; successful men and women who are doctors, lawyers, and African chiefs, men and women who could have had a profound influence on me as a child, were the most invisible. Just as now some Black child thinks “he or she’s the only one, because I’m invisible.
While I openly share the beauty of my Black experience, insight gained from being gay is shared only when it’s safe. Black publications proudly announce their arrival, while gay publications arrive hidden in plain manila envelopes.
While I can’t think of a single thing which would make me want to be White, the notion of giving up all of my talents just to be normal often seems attractive.
When I’m hurt as a Black person I have an instant support network. When I’m hurt as a gay person, I’m left to lick my wounds until I find a safe place.
Often I feel the answer is to tell the world, I’m gay. However, I lack that courage. I fear taking on another label and providing people with yet another reason to view me as a target. It’s difficult enough educating people to see Black people as multi-dimensional and not flat stereotypes. Why take on the added burden?
I suffer as a result of this decision. People who honor me for my talents, still maintain the perception that gay people are somehow evil or inferior. They have no idea that much of what they admire is the result of my being gay. The skills and strengths developed to cope with a painful reality have positive effects on all facets of my life. James Baldwin in his essay, "Notes of a Native Son" perhaps says it best. In referring to the writer as artist he says, “...the things which hurt him and the things which helped him cannot be divorced from each other; he could be helped in a certain way only because he was hurt in a certain way...�
All groups of people have a need for self definition. Black people and gays are more exposed to and influenced by definitions that come from the majority, than by internal group definitions. Even refuting myths gives negative ideas validity and challenges our own perceptions. As a result, we question our statements of self and the process of self affirmation becomes all the more difficult.
While I appreciate the support of sensitive Black straight people and gay White people, I sense that because they see themselves in me, they somehow fail to fully appreciate who I am. I am as unlike them as I am like them.
Just as Black people need distance from the distorted image reflected by Whites, so too do we as gays need an environment in which to affirm ourselves. For those of us who are both Black and gay, the process is all the more difficult. Not only do we have two sets of stereotypes to sift through, we’re claimed by two groups.
Straight Blacks and White gays develop group identities that further distort who we are. When people think, "gay" they see, “White�. When they think, “Black� they fail to see “gay�. As a result, Black straights and White gays create some of the worst obstacles to a positive Black gay identity.
The worst obstacle however, is presented by Black gays. Our success in being invisible robs us of knowing ourselves and each other. It further robs us of being known on our own terms by Blacks, gays and other majorities. Yet, the risk of being visible is one that too few of us is willing to take.
Someday I’ll marshal the strength to fight on two battlefields. Until thin I’ll choose the obvious one, continue to be invisible and hate it.
Chuck Tarver Copyright © 1999
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Kunjufu Villager

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Posted: Monday January 16th, 2006 14:00 |
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| Please can we only have serious replies to this thread that either constructively rebutts these theories on Homosexuality or Agrees with the theories put forward by Rousengo...any other type of response will be removed.
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Posted: Monday January 16th, 2006 18:07 |
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Kunjufu wrote: Please can we only have serious replies to this thread that either constructively rebutts these theories on Homosexuality or Agrees with the theories put forward by Rousengo...any other type of response will be removed.
I may respond later after readin Rusengo's book, but you know my style, if I respond I can't hold back.... Raw and unedited.
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Posted: Tuesday January 17th, 2006 00:29 |
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Rousengo…Sorry these three articles you’ve posted is to put it politely utter and complete rubbish…really…I’m going to detail my reason for saying this in a minute however…but let me state this first.
I’m in absolutely no doubt that being Black & homosexual must be bloody difficult, because obviously African community quite rightly in my view do not wish to embrace the whole culture of homosexuality without questions as they have already done in the West..
That said I recognise that it must be difficult being black and openly gay, within a traditional black culture.. However whilst I accepting these difficulties, I do not accept the premise, sorry contrived arguments you presented to underline this issue..
Firstly the part 1 of your article is clearly trying to hard to prove an non existent point, contradicting itself in so many different levels….for example is the author arguing that Homosexuality is Nature or Nurture? This article appears to suggesting that it is totally Nature, but latently coming out in early childhood, my obvious question is since when did ANY child regardless of sexuality have sexualised thoughts especially at 5 years old?
Flipping this back to the beginning of the article, the Author lays on the emotive arguments really THICK...by talking about Homosexuals, being ‘scapegoated’ ‘shamed’, ‘ridiculed’ or ‘hidden’…this begs the obvious question how would anyone KNOW that a person is GAY? Last time I check there wasn’t a scartlett mark on their foreheads signifying a person’s sexuality.
Then there is the other contradiction when the author states ‘unlike black or jewish a gay man as a child is both typically alone with his differentness’ personally I found this assertion erroneous and insulting as it attempts to belittle and minimise black identity issues, I know from Professional and established research that this argunment just does not stand up to scrutiny I cite CLARK and CLARK’s blues brown eyes doll experiement…that completely undermines this premise..as one obvious example of black identity issues.
Then amazenly it states that gays don’t have gay parents, and appears to suggest this as a disadvantage…Well Rousengo apart from the obvious contradiction of THAT statement. I can only state how ridiculous I found that attempt at an argument.. but it begs the question should we now moniter all children and have those with alleged homosexual tendencies placed within gay households?…and what would such a gay parenting model look like I wonder?
I have to say that at this point I really couldn’t be bothered to waste any more time on this Americanised load of rubbish at legitimising Homosexuality ..because to say the line of thought is poor is a mild understatement..
Moving onto the second article..by ‘chuck Tarver'..written I highlight in 1989…more than 15years ago …obviously the first thing to say is that the climate of the world has significantly moved on from 1989 hasn’t it?
But let me move on, this is yet another poor attempt to link Homosexuality to race discrimination..and missing the target very badly..very badly indeed… It starts by talking about being ‘invisable’ and 'fighting a fight on two fronts..being ‘gay’ and ‘black’..and so it goes on, the author says he choose the ‘easy fight’ the ‘black one’… That bit right there, lost me from the get go..how patronising how disgusting, how insulting….
Maybe Rousengo, you can go and look up the stat’s on the comparative numbers of Gay’s being in prison, the mental health treatment or in poverty and then ask your self whether being black is ‘easy’… Did you actually engage your brain when you decided to post this piece of crap to articulate your thoughts?
When pray tell did you last hear of Police profiling gays in regards to crime, or gays being harshly diagnosed in regards to mental health?
There is many more poorly thought out and often patronising points littered through out this joke of an article..but I especially like the crap about.. ‘straight blacks’ develop group identities..but the poor down trodden Black gay’s are hidden..obviously you don’t watch American next top model…a nationally rated show.. where the lead stars are Mr jay (gay) & Ms Jay (Gay)…I guess they are typical iof those hidden black gays so traumatised at birth….oh please.
what is disappointing is that you have a case, one that might even be interesting…however you typically miss the plot with this attempted glorification of homosexuality FIRST, wrongly in my view at the expence of common sense…try again this effort is just utter and complete rubbish..
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Posted: Tuesday January 17th, 2006 01:06 |
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"FIRST, wrongly in my view at the expence of common sense…try again this effort is just utter and complete rubbish.."
LOL kunjufu, you sound like a school master giving him an E for his essay.
I just finished writing a 3000 word assignment, I could'nt be arsed to read another 10000 so i just browsed. To be honest, its too late and my mind too tired to comment right now.
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Miyu Villager
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Posted: Tuesday January 17th, 2006 04:03 |
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Rusengo wrote:
By Chuck Tarver
Creator of the Blackstripe.
...I suffer as a result of this decision. People who honor me for my talents, still maintain the perception that gay people are somehow evil or inferior. They have no idea that much of what they admire is the result of my being gay. ...
Chuck Tarver Copyright © 1999
I totally disagree with the above part where the author is trying to equate talent with gender preferences. Do you sincerely expect Micheal Jackson's musical talent to be a reflection of him being either black, white, american, educated, not educated, japanese, what have you? No, even if he was gay, there is no way anybody would equate his musical talent to his gayness. If I were a renowned scientist and I happen to be black, would you associate my scientific prowess to the fact that I am black? I rest my case.
A note to Kunjufu, Rusengo may have been way off mark in his opinions, but that does not warrant you to belittle his thoughts or to be so condenscending as can be seen from your rebuttals thereafter. There are more polite and modest ways in countering arguments and still be heard by the intended audience. Respect of opinion does not in anyway suggest that you are in accord with it.
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Posted: Tuesday January 17th, 2006 06:31 |
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Rusengo,
You shouldn't even waste your time trying to explain homosexuality to people here. Not worth your time or effort, seriously. It will be like teaching a dog to ice skate.
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Posted: Tuesday January 17th, 2006 08:21 |
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Miyu wrote:
A note to Kunjufu, Rusengo may have been way off mark in his opinions, but that does not warrant you to belittle his thoughts or to be so condenscending as can be seen from your rebuttals thereafter. There are more polite and modest ways in countering arguments and still be heard by the intended audience. Respect of opinion does not in anyway suggest that you are in accord with it.
Miyu: Hmmm i hear your point but i disagree I do not have to be 'nice' in my rebuttals, too often we are bombarded with lazy ill concieved political points such as this one in the mainstream media.. and NEVER given the right of reply. When we do get the right of reply then either the unsemetic or the Homophobic card is played to prevent legitimate critical analysis of theories put forward.
Worse how often are we bombarded in the media by so called 'studies' that is also legitimised by the authors credentials...its the 'oh it must be true' because he is a proffessor or he has a PHd...syndrome. My dutie is not to be nice in how i reply to Rousengo's ill concieved piece of research based argument, my responsibilty is to highlight and expose the contradiction i see in it..
Especially as this is not a matter of being way off the mark, it is also a matter that the material he provided was also quite insulting and in my view quite disgusting.. I really wish i could tell all those 'black' people i meet proffessionally that their experience was 'easy'.. I also dislike the piss poor attempt to put homosexuality on a pedistal ABOVE everything else..no, no way that is just plain wrong..
Bottomline, no doubt there is a strong argument to be had on the experience of black people who are gay, and no doubt in my mind that they would have experienced severe hardships.. But please there is no need for us to be patronised or insulted in the putting forward of that argument......if he's gonna mark a point then make it don't do some half arse google research randomly pick out three pieces of abstracts, that sound good, barely skim read them and then present it as a cogent analysis...that in my view is asking for it, and to be honest i wasn't nearly hard enough, as i should have been...
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Le Moor Villager

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Posted: Tuesday January 17th, 2006 08:23 |
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Kunjufu wrote: Rousengo…Sorry these three articles you’ve posted is to put it politely utter and complete rubbish…really…I’m going to detail my reason for saying this in a minute however…but let me state this first.
I’m in absolutely no doubt that being Black & homosexual must be bloody difficult, because obviously African community quite rightly in my view do not wish to embrace the whole culture of homosexuality without questions as they have already done in the West..
That said I recognise that it must be difficult being black and openly gay, within a traditional black culture.. However whilst I accepting these difficulties, I do not accept the premise, sorry contrived arguments you presented to underline this issue..
Firstly the part 1 of your article is clearly trying to hard to prove an non existent point, contradicting itself in so many different levels….for example is the author arguing that Homosexuality is Nature or Nurture? This article appears to suggesting that it is totally Nature, but latently coming out in early childhood, my obvious question is since when did ANY child regardless of sexuality have sexualised thoughts especially at 5 years old?
Flipping this back to the beginning of the article, the Author lays on the emotive arguments really THICK...by talking about Homosexuals, being ‘scapegoated’ ‘shamed’, ‘ridiculed’ or ‘hidden’…this begs the obvious question how would anyone KNOW that a person is GAY? Last time I check there wasn’t a scartlett mark on their foreheads signifying a person’s sexuality.
Then there is the other contradiction when the author states ‘unlike black or jewish a gay man as a child is both typically alone with his differentness’ personally I found this assertion erroneous and insulting as it attempts to belittle and minimise black identity issues, I know from Professional and established research that this argunment just does not stand up to scrutiny I cite CLARK and CLARK’s blues brown eyes doll experiement…that completely undermines this premise..as one obvious example of black identity issues.
Then amazenly it states that gays don’t have gay parents, and appears to suggest this as a disadvantage…Well Rousengo apart from the obvious contradiction of THAT statement. I can only state how ridiculous I found that attempt at an argument.. but it begs the question should we now moniter all children and have those with alleged homosexual tendencies placed within gay households?…and what would such a gay parenting model look like I wonder?
I have to say that at this point I really couldn’t be bothered to waste any more time on this Americanised load of rubbish at legitimising Homosexuality ..because to say the line of thought is poor is a mild understatement..
Moving onto the second article..by ‘chuck Tarver'..written I highlight in 1989…more than 15years ago …obviously the first thing to say is that the climate of the world has significantly moved on from 1989 hasn’t it?
But let me move on, this is yet another poor attempt to link Homosexuality to race discrimination..and missing the target very badly..very badly indeed… It starts by talking about being ‘invisable’ and 'fighting a fight on two fronts..being ‘gay’ and ‘black’..and so it goes on, the author says he choose the ‘easy fight’ the ‘black one’… That bit right there, lost me from the get go..how patronising how disgusting, how insulting….
Maybe Rousengo, you can go and look up the stat’s on the comparative numbers of Gay’s being in prison, the mental health treatment or in poverty and then ask your self whether being black is ‘easy’… Did you actually engage your brain when you decided to post this piece of crap to articulate your thoughts?
When pray tell did you last hear of Police profiling gays in regards to crime, or gays being harshly diagnosed in regards to mental health?
There is many more poorly thought out and often patronising points littered through out this joke of an article..but I especially like the crap about.. ‘straight blacks’ develop group identities..but the poor down trodden Black gay’s are hidden..obviously you don’t watch American next top model…a nationally rated show.. where the lead stars are Mr jay (gay) & Ms Jay (Gay)…I guess they are typical iof those hidden black gays so traumatised at birth….oh please.
what is disappointing is that you have a case, one that might even be interesting…however you typically miss the plot with this attempted glorification of homosexuality FIRST, wrongly in my view at the expence of common sense…try again this effort is just utter and complete rubbish..
ROFLMAO.
Although i agree with a lot you said Kunj there are a few points i cant entirely agree with.
Were Black Gays prevelent in 1989 such as in your example?
Also I had my first sexual experience at five years old. A girl (Tiffany Silva Netto) and i used to simultaneously pretend to want to use the loos, leave the classroom and feel each other up in the loos. Serious. We didnt know what we were doing or what to do but it felt good. Pre-meditated as well. That was sexuality in its infancy.
Although i think i agree in another form with the issue you addressed. A 5 year could know they are experiencing unexplained emotions but how would they translate that into being gay or even being taboo at such an age. Im fairly certain that if they're able to, then either the world has passed me by or its bad parenting for allowing that to happen. Naturally this would not be the case would it?
Last edited on Tuesday January 17th, 2006 09:55 by Le Moor
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Kunjufu Villager

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Posted: Tuesday January 17th, 2006 08:30 |
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Timeline wrote: Rusengo,
  You shouldn't even waste your time trying to explain homosexuality to people here. Not worth your time or effort, seriously. It will be like teaching a dog to ice skate.
This Timeline is exactly THE problem..maybe it is time you and Rousengo STOPPED trying to EXPLAIN yourselves, and stopped with this missionary zeal to push an obvious agenda (very badly i might add) to us poor black uneducated heathens...Â
Then maybe people might see YOU and not the political agenda that you both try so desparately and obviously to represent... so here's my tip get off the proverbial soapbox and stop trying to brow beat people to death...
Last edited on Tuesday January 17th, 2006 09:28 by Kunjufu
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Kunjufu Villager

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Posted: Tuesday January 17th, 2006 08:48 |
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Le Moor wrote: ROFLMAO.
Although i agree with a lot you said Kunj there are a few points i cant entirely agree with.
Were Black Gays prevelent in 1989 such as in your example?
Just to correct you Le moor, my point wasn't that Black gay people were not prevelent back in 1989, because that would be silly, it was actually to make the obvious point, that the landscape on Homosexuality has changed, and changed significantly since 1989.....
Obvious examples, open discussion about homosexual representation in some faiths ie Anglican church, changes to common land legislation in many countries that recognises and gives equal rights to same sex unions, homosexuality being openly celebrated more often in the mainstream media, Brokebacks moutains Golden globe Awards last night being an obvious indicator here..etc etc That was my point, his 1989 article was just plain lazy..
Also I had my first sexual experience at five years old. A girl (Tiffany Silva Netto) and i used to simultaneously pretend to want to use the loos, leave the classroom and feel each other up in the loos. Serious. We didnt know what we were doing or what to do but it felt good. Pre-meditated as well. That was sexuality in its infancy.
Although i think i agree in another form with the issue you addressed. A 5 year could know they are experiencing unexplained emotions but how would they translate that into being gay or even being taboo at such an age. Im fairly certain that if they're able to, then either the world has passed me by or its bad parenting for allowing that to happen. Naturally this would not be the case would it?
Hmmm Le moor, that's a fair point, but you also agree with me that its just to simplistic to say 5/6 years felt 'strange', can i point you to Blackthoughts thread, on when we 'first experienced racism'..
Now this provides current and better evidence that even in regards to race, many of us who experienced racism around the same period.. would have had similar thoughts about feeling 'strange', or 'isolated' to experiences that we felt we're obvious discrimination, but couldn't quite put our fingers on... but you will note that no one suggested it Eureka..RACISM at 5 years old... no one thought EUREKA..all white people HATE me... That came after the SAME discrimination kept revisiting us time and time again...
But what was consistent, was the feeling of confusion, isolation and the attack on our self worth... Now go and look at the analysis presented by Rousengo, where is that evidence, where is that anacdotal comparisons, what we were given was a highly politicised and quite frankly contrived piece of obvious political research..aimed at legitimising and repositioning the homosexual experience as far more worthwhile and experiencing far more discrimination that religious or race discrimination..and that is what i personally objected to..it was crass and insulting.. quite frankly my cat could have put forward a better argunment and he's not even gay..
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Le Moor Villager

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Posted: Tuesday January 17th, 2006 09:02 |
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quite frankly my cat could have put forward a better argument and he's not even gay..
ROFLMAO stop it man its too early.....................
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Le Moor Villager

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Posted: Tuesday January 17th, 2006 09:40 |
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This is topic is quite intriguing as its posed these questions to me. Do the number of gays increase, if society becomes more liberal and homesexuality becomes more socially acclaimed ?
Have all gays really inherited the gay gene or have a large portion become gay due to environmental influence.
If the latter is so would it not stand to reason the more liberal we become the more gays we will create.
The authors stated that the child identfied Gays as being Taboo from his parents. Well if that reverses and a childs environment potrays being Gay as typical,wouldnt the number of gays with the gay gene, who confess and 'come out', increase, as well as the ones who are inflenced by their environment?
Last edited on Tuesday January 17th, 2006 09:48 by Le Moor
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Ingonyama - he is a lion! Villager

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Posted: Tuesday January 17th, 2006 11:09 |
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When you read dis! no wonders black people dont come out of closet!!
k people
African leaders attack gays
Last month, the International Lesbian and Gay Human Rights Commission (ILGHRC) reported that two women in Somalia were sentenced to death for "unnatural behavior."
In Egypt, three men accused of setting up a gay Web site were charged with violating the Egyptian legal code, which penalizes homosexual sex. And in February, the government began closing down bathhouses frequented by gays.
In Zimbabwe, where President Robert Mugabe has compared homosexuality to bestiality, police last month raided the offices of Gays and Lesbians of Zimbabwe (GALZ). The police allegedly recovered two pornographic magazines and arrested a suspect for violating the Censorship and Entertainment Act.
In Uganda, church leaders of the Uganda House of Bishops called on the government not to register a gay and lesbian group called Integrity Uganda. The church group reportedly described the gay organization as unbiblical and inhuman, and a church statement accused the gay organization of serving as a front for U.S. gays and lesbians to set up a base in Uganda.
Nowhere has the homophobia been more blatant recently than in Namibia. President Sam Nujoma announced in March and again on April 1, that "the Republic of Namibia does not allow homosexuality or lesbianism here. Police are ordered to arrest you, deport you and imprison you." Nujoma described homosexuality as "against God's will" and called it "the devil at work." His statements follow those of Jerry Ekandjo, Namibia's home affairs minister, who last year urged newly graduated police officers to "eliminate gays and lesbians from the face of Namibia."
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Kunjufu Villager

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Posted: Tuesday January 17th, 2006 11:19 |
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Ingonyama - he is a lion! wrote: When you read dis! no wonders black people dont come out of closet!!
k people
African leaders attack gays
Last month, the International Lesbian and Gay Human Rights Commission (ILGHRC) reported that two women in Somalia were sentenced to death for "unnatural behavior."
In Egypt, three men accused of setting up a gay Web site were charged with violating the Egyptian legal code, which penalizes homosexual sex. And in February, the government began closing down bathhouses frequented by gays.
In Zimbabwe, where President Robert Mugabe has compared homosexuality to bestiality, police last month raided the offices of Gays and Lesbians of Zimbabwe (GALZ). The police allegedly recovered two pornographic magazines and arrested a suspect for violating the Censorship and Entertainment Act.
In Uganda, church leaders of the Uganda House of Bishops called on the government not to register a gay and lesbian group called Integrity Uganda. The church group reportedly described the gay organization as unbiblical and inhuman, and a church statement accused the gay organization of serving as a front for U.S. gays and lesbians to set up a base in Uganda.
Nowhere has the homophobia been more blatant recently than in Namibia. President Sam Nujoma announced in March and again on April 1, that "the Republic of Namibia does not allow homosexuality or lesbianism here. Police are ordered to arrest you, deport you and imprison you." Nujoma described homosexuality as "against God's will" and called it "the devil at work." His statements follow those of Jerry Ekandjo, Namibia's home affairs minister, who last year urged newly graduated police officers to "eliminate gays and lesbians from the face of Namibia."
Ingonyama..Good and fair point..in some other countries homosexuality is NOT tolerated in law or in public...To be honest if Rousengo had presente an argument along these lines correlating how Africans who are gay feel persecuted in Countries (not just Africans i remind everyone), do not tolerate Homosexuals..that would have been far more thoughtful and worthy of discussion than the rubbish he put out..
So the question I'd ask you is this...are these country right to persecute Homosexuals in law or wrong..?
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Kunjufu Villager

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Posted: Tuesday January 17th, 2006 11:21 |
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Le Moor wrote: This is topic is quite intriguing as its posed these questions to me. Do the number of gays increase, if society becomes more liberal and homesexuality becomes more socially acclaimed ?
Have all gays really inherited the gay gene or have a large portion become gay due to environmental influence.
If the latter is so would it not stand to reason the more liberal we become the more gays we will create.
The authors stated that the child identfied Gays as being Taboo from his parents. Well if that reverses and a childs environment potrays being Gay as typical,wouldnt the number of gays with the gay gene, who confess and 'come out', increase, as well as the ones who are inflenced by their environment?
Good question, hence my query on the Nature Nurture perspective..It appeared to me that the Author in BOTH articles were trying to have it BOTH ways...and making a very bad job of making either case...IMO
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Rusengo Villager
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Posted: Tuesday January 17th, 2006 11:23 |
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Kunjufu wrote: Rousengo…Sorry these three articles you’ve posted is to put it politely utter and complete rubbish…really…I’m going to detail my reason for saying this in a minute however…but let me state this first.
I’m in absolutely no doubt that being Black & homosexual must be bloody difficult, because obviously African community quite rightly in my view do not wish to embrace the whole culture of homosexuality without questions as they have already done in the West..
That said I recognise that it must be difficult being black and openly gay, within a traditional black culture.. However whilst I accepting these difficulties, I do not accept the premise, sorry contrived arguments you presented to underline this issue..
Firstly the part 1 of your article is clearly trying to hard to prove an non existent point, contradicting itself in so many different levels….for example is the author arguing that Homosexuality is Nature or Nurture? This article appears to suggesting that it is totally Nature, but latently coming out in early childhood, my obvious question is since when did ANY child regardless of sexuality have sexualised thoughts especially at 5 years old?
I'll answer you by a question, would you believe it if the studies were presented to you by a straight black sexologist? And in any case I shouldn't be teaching you about sexuality and when it starts to manifest itself, you know what you know about it, if you want to know more , there are plenty of sources
Flipping this back to the beginning of the article, the Author lays on the emotive arguments really THICK...by talking about Homosexuals, being ‘scapegoated’ ‘shamed’, ‘ridiculed’ or ‘hidden’…this begs the obvious question how would anyone KNOW that a person is GAY? Last time I check there wasn’t a scartlett mark on their foreheads signifying a person’s sexuality.
I am sorry Kunjufu, you have this very bad attitude of denying obvious things to give support to your arguments, the stonewall riots was fought by "effeminate gay men" in 1969 because they are the obvious ones; they were tired of the discrimination they'd sufferd all their lives and that's who the author is talking about, the "effeminate ones", I know that there are many masculine,straight-acting ones which actually prefer to stay in the closet because it's easier for them and fail to come forward and show the many diversities of the gay community!
Then there is the other contradiction when the author states ‘unlike black or jewish a gay man as a child is both typically alone with his differentness’ personally I found this assertion erroneous and insulting as it attempts to belittle and minimise black identity issues, I know from Professional and established research that this argunment just does not stand up to scrutiny I cite CLARK and CLARK’s blues brown eyes doll experiement…that completely undermines this premise..as one obvious example of black identity issues.
Can you explain to me how as a gay child growing up in Africa or in a black neighbourhood where even the word "gay" is taboo, you can get a clear view of why you are feeling the way you are feeling without a role model? As a black child you know who you go to if you feel confused, who do you go to when you feel confused about your sexuality or identity?
Then amazenly it states that gays don’t have gay parents, and appears to suggest this as a disadvantage…Well Rousengo apart from the obvious contradiction of THAT statement. I can only state how ridiculous I found that attempt at an argument.. but it begs the question should we now moniter all children and have those with alleged homosexual tendencies placed within gay households?…and what would such a gay parenting model look like I wonder?
Ridiculous,in what way? Parents are there to protect and educate their children aren't they? let me give you an example how would one of your children feel if he turned out to be gay and happen to have a parent with such strong views on homosexuality? And you know that no child wants to lose the love of his parents, what does he do knowing fully well that, he's going to be taken to hospital and told that he's sick, or be forced to join a rugby team to masculinise him to the max!
I have to say that at this point I really couldn’t be bothered to waste any more time on this Americanised load of rubbish at legitimising Homosexuality ..because to say the line of thought is poor is a mild understatement..
Nothing of a surprise, classic heterosexism!
Moving onto the second article..by ‘chuck Tarver'..written I highlight in 1989…more than 15years ago …obviously the first thing to say is that the climate of the world has significantly moved on from 1989 hasn’t it?
"because obviously African community quite rightly in my view do not wish to embrace the whole culture of homosexuality without questions as they have already done in the West..
I quote you Kunjufu! why would you write this in the beginning and imply that the climate of the "african community" has changed not "the world" cause he's taling about being black and gay! you cannot have this view and experience at the same time on his behalf the consequences of thoughts like these.
But let me move on, this is yet another poor attempt to link Homosexuality to race discrimination..and missing the target very badly..very badly indeed… It starts by talking about being ‘invisable’ and 'fighting a fight on two fronts..being ‘gay’ and ‘black’..and so it goes on, the author says he choose the ‘easy fight’ the ‘black one’… That bit right there, lost me from the get go..how patronising how disgusting, how insulting….
Oh! really! how would you feel as a black gay person when black pop or rap stars, black preachers, black freedom fighters etc,screaming that we should unite, fight discrimination,fight for equal rights, your community, your own blood, then later they turn back on to you sing you in songs calling you all sort of names, demonise you in churches, repell you, what would you do? if you are not strong enough to be who you are? wouldn't you chose the easy fight of fight racism and deny your homosexuality and pretend to be straight?
Maybe Rousengo, you can go and look up the stat’s on the comparative numbers of Gay’s being in prison, the mental health treatment or in poverty and then ask your self whether being black is ‘easy’… Did you actually engage your brain when you decided to post this piece of crap to articulate your thoughts?
You didn't actually get the author's point I think, the title was Invisible, (invisible because many black gay people prefer to hide or stay in the closet because of "racism" in the outside world and homophobia in their community) black and gay, isn't it? again, nothing of a surprise ,when someone doesn't say what you want to hear, they are either stupid or insulting!
When pray tell did you last hear of Police profiling gays in regards to crime, or gays being harshly diagnosed in regards to mental health?
There is many more poorly thought out and often patronising points littered through out this joke of an article..but I especially like the crap about.. ‘straight blacks’ develop group identities..but the poor down trodden Black gay’s are hidden..obviously you don’t watch American next top model…a nationally rated show.. where the lead stars are Mr jay (gay) & Ms Jay (Gay)…I guess they are typical iof those hidden black gays so traumatised at birth….oh please.
what is disappointing is that you have a case, one that might even be interesting…however you typically miss the plot with this attempted glorification of homosexuality FIRST, wrongly in my view at the expence of common sense…try again this effort is just utter and complete rubbish..
And by common sense, I take it you mean YOUR COMMON SENSE! AS USUAL! As for "glorification" this is an interesting one because, I should start another subject on "Heterosexism" which is actually what you suffer from more than "Homophobia"I realised!
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Posted: Tuesday January 17th, 2006 11:36 |
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Rusengo wrote:
I should start another subject on "Heterosexism" which is actually what you suffer from more than "Homophobia"I realised!
Be careful....or he will close the topic for no reason just like the homophobia topic I created.
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Posted: Tuesday January 17th, 2006 11:38 |
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Le Moor wrote: This is topic is quite intriguing as its posed these questions to me. Do the number of gays increase, if society becomes more liberal and homesexuality becomes more socially acclaimed ?
Have all gays really inherited the gay gene or have a large portion become gay due to environmental influence.
If the latter is so would it not stand to reason the more liberal we become the more gays we will create.
The number of gay people MAY appear increased, but what in fact happens is that the people who are gay anyway will feel more encouraged to be who they are without fear of attack. This may appear to some people as a direct result of social acceptance encouraging people to 'become gay' which is bollocks. I don't know how to explain this simply , but basically a person does not become gay just because they see other gay people around them. A person is gay because they just are. Its not something that is learned, its something that is. Gay people are not looking to convert everyone to become gay (as a straight person knows you cannot suddenly decide 'oh from today i'm gonna be gay'). You're either gay(or bi) or you ain't.
The authors stated that the child identfied Gays as being Taboo from his parents. Well if that reverses and a childs environment potrays being Gay as typical,wouldnt the number of gays with the gay gene, who confess and 'come out', increase, as well as the ones who are inflenced by their environment?
Yep it will. I think parents do play a big part in a child's decision to come out. I am very aware of my parents strong feelings on homosexuality which is unfortunately as a result of their inability and unwillingness to try to understand (which thankfully hasn't been passed on to me). I have not had deep conversations with them to explain what I know and understand about homosexuality because I know my parents and they would try and tell me they know better cos they're older blah blah blah.
Last edited on Tuesday January 17th, 2006 11:40 by
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Le Moor Villager

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Posted: Tuesday January 17th, 2006 11:58 |
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I don't know how to explain this simply , but basically a person does not become gay just because they see other gay people around them. A person is gay because they just are. Its not something that is learned, its something that is. Gay people are not looking to convert everyone to become gay (as a straight person knows you cannot suddenly decide 'oh from today i'm gonna be gay'). You're either gay(or bi) or you ain't.
Im not so sure i agree that that applies to all gay men, but i could be wrong.
However what is apparent is that environments help form behaviours. Therefore if a child develops in an age of gay acceptance could they not be influenced to channel their early sexual emotions towards the same sex?
Also there is the so called 'trendy' phenomenon. As homosexuality becomes more typical, arent there men, who will no longer have any deterent, willing to experiment with their sexuality and discover they actually enjoy it. It may mean they join the ranks of bi-sexuals nethertheless the whole sector would have increased.
Last edited on Tuesday January 17th, 2006 12:04 by Le Moor
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Rusengo Villager
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Posted: Tuesday January 17th, 2006 12:00 |
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Timeline wrote: Rusengo wrote:
I should start another subject on "Heterosexism" which is actually what you suffer from more than "Homophobia"I realised!
Be careful....or he will close the topic for no reason just like the homophobia topic I created.
Timeline, I am not here to write what Kunjufu wants me to write, if this website is for african people who want to share their life experiences, I think I meet the criteria! if he closes the subject then it says a lot about what kind of a man he is!Iknow that many gay african people visit this site and would like to join in and express themselves like you and me, why not? We should actually have a "gay and lesbian" section on BN, what do you say Kunjufu? down.gif" ALT="blkbowdown">.gif" ALT=" down.gif" ALT="blkbowdown">">
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Posted: Tuesday January 17th, 2006 12:03 |
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I think to me its where you draw a social boundary.... we as people tend to push the boundary of society.. thats why there is law and you have ppl trying to constantly break it....
What amazes me is that 20 years ago ... homosexuality wasn't widely accepeted in the society... soon as it was accepted.. what happened next... they start bringing it onto religion... now they want to get married...
Now been gay isn't so cool and dangerous no more.... then you have a new trend BI-Sexual.... society accepted it to... but Nope the boundary needed to be pushed again.... You have BI-CURIOUS wtf ... errmmm... its seems like the IN thing now....
You have people now with both gender genitals....
Some cross dressing men who sees themselve as women....
Men with breast....
Bottom line there ought to be a boundary...
so I'd say whats next 10 years down the line...
Come on now pps... are this symptons something that is our genes
Last edited on Tuesday January 17th, 2006 12:05 by Blackthought
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Posted: Tuesday January 17th, 2006 13:32 |
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Timeline regretably said " You shouldn't even waste your time trying to explain homosexuality to people here. Not worth your time or effort, seriously. It will be like teaching a dog to ice skate.
Sometime people need to apply their own teaching to themselves. Even a dog or lesser mamal like or rat knows when a tactic or approach does not work and will try another means....
While a dog may be limited in its intrinsic design. Human beings have to capacity to learn and take on unlimited number of things.....and also to reject them on very sound and reasonable basis.
As I have said it from day one the failure to successfully articulate and gain support for particular unpopular views both here,and in life, is often more a product of those holding those views. Only too quick to start to get abusive and attempt to insult people which is the sure fire way to remain marginalized and at the periphery.
@Rusengo you made the point that you are either heterosexual or homosexual. I don't know if that is actually scientifically correct and that has important implications, particularly in terms of how non-homosexuals respond to this issue.
FB
Last edited on Tuesday January 17th, 2006 13:34 by FredB
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Posted: Tuesday January 17th, 2006 13:43 |
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Nevermind the topic.
Anyone know of a family that has two gay children?
Didn't think so.
It's a genetic f**k up.
Now let's all be happy.
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Posted: Tuesday January 17th, 2006 15:07 |
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Le Moor wrote:
Im not so sure i agree that that applies to all gay men, but i could be wrong.
However what is apparent is that environments help form behaviours. Therefore if a child develops in an age of gay acceptance could they not be influenced to channel their early sexual emotions towards the same sex?
Undoubtedtly there might be isolated cases where a person may be influenced but this is very unlikely.
Also there is the so called 'trendy' phenomenon. As homosexuality becomes more typical, arent there men, who will no longer have any deterent, willing to experiment with their sexuality and discover they actually enjoy it. It may mean they join the ranks of bi-sexuals nethertheless the whole sector would have increased.
Again I cannot see why anyone(man or woman). would 'experiment' if the feelings were not already there. They may undoubtedly feel more encouraged than they might otherwise have been to explore that side of themselves. But of course there might be those who will experiment anyway, probably the sort who indulge in 3somes and other such activities. Can't see an increase in this being as a result of gay acceptance though, merely some people being freaky which happens now anyway.
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Posted: Tuesday January 17th, 2006 15:20 |
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Blackthought wrote: I think to me its where you draw a social boundary.... we as people tend to push the boundary of society.. thats why there is law and you have ppl trying to constantly break it....
Thats your opinion, but it REALLY isn't about that.
What amazes me is that 20 years ago ... homosexuality wasn't widely accepeted in the society... soon as it was accepted.. what happened next... they start bringing it onto religion... now they want to get married...
People wanting to get married isn't as a consequence of it being relatively more accepted in recent times. Its because they feel they no longer have to feel like pariahs and have a little more freedom to be who they are. Wanting to get 'married' or have a civil ceremony is just a way of showing their dedication to the person they love, may not be a 'normal' heterosexual relationship, but some people want a way of formalising their relationship and showing their commitment to each other.
Now been gay isn't so cool and dangerous no more.... then you have a new trend BI-Sexual.... society accepted it to... but Nope the boundary needed to be pushed again.... You have BI-CURIOUS wtf ... errmmm... its seems like the IN thing now....
Being gay isn't cool lol. I don't know where you get that idea from cos I'm young and I don't think being gay is cool, and I don't know of any of my friends who do. Being bisexual isn't a trend either, only for a small minority of people it might be. As for bi-curious lol, all that means is a person who isn't ready to accept that part of themselves and prefer the term 'curious' to make it sound less bad (thats what I think anyway).
You have people now with both gender genitals....
Hemaphrodites?
Some cross dressing men who sees themselve as women....
Lol, can't say I understand this one.
Men with breast....
Gynecomastia?
Bottom line there ought to be a boundary...
so I'd say whats next 10 years down the line...
Come on now pps... are this symptons something that is our genes
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Posted: Tuesday January 17th, 2006 15:31 |
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Rusengo wrote: Timeline wrote: Rusengo wrote:
I should start another subject on "Heterosexism" which is actually what you suffer from more than "Homophobia"I realised!
Be careful....or he will close the topic for no reason just like the homophobia topic I created.
Timeline, I am not here to write what Kunjufu wants me to write, if this website is for african people who want to share their life experiences, I think I meet the criteria! if he closes the subject then it says a lot about what kind of a man he is!Iknow that many gay african people visit this site and would like to join in and express themselves like you and me, why not? We should actually have a "gay and lesbian" section on BN, what do you say Kunjufu?
Rousengo..can i just clarify somethings...Whilst i don't agree with you, I would defend your right to express yourself here..just be clear that you will be challenged on certain points ok because EVERYONE is challenged here to defend or explain their views..thats BLACKNET...
You being here is not dependant on whether you're LIKED, its dependant on your adherance to the guidelines as laid out by the team...simple..
However I'm sorry to say that I can't see that we will consider having a specialist section along the lines that you suggest... Not saying it will never happen but I can't see it happening in the foreseeable future...
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Le Moor Villager

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Posted: Tuesday January 17th, 2006 15:59 |
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true wrote: Le Moor wrote:
Im not so sure i agree that that applies to all gay men, but i could be wrong.
However what is apparent is that environments help form behaviours. Therefore if a child develops in an age of gay acceptance could they not be influenced to channel their early sexual emotions towards the same sex?
Undoubtedtly there might be isolated cases where a person may be influenced but this is very unlikely.
How do you know that? Im supporting my claim by saying any anthropologist will tell you that we are naturally influenced by our environments. Therefore would it not be reasonable to assume that a child who is exposed to gay practices is more likely to be influenced than one who is not.
Also there is the so called 'trendy' phenomenon. As homosexuality becomes more typical, arent there men, who will no longer have any deterent, willing to experiment with their sexuality and discover they actually enjoy it. It may mean they join the ranks of bi-sexuals nethertheless the whole sector would have increased.
Again I cannot see why anyone(man or woman). would 'experiment' if the feelings were not already there. They may undoubtedly feel more encouraged than they might otherwise have been to explore that side of themselves. But of course there might be those who will experiment anyway, probably the sort who indulge in 3somes and other such activities. Can't see an increase in this being as a result of gay acceptance though, merely some people being freaky which happens now anyway.
True does the 'Freaky' or 'Trendy' nature lead to increases?. Why wouldnt it be logical to suggest that the more people who try it, the more converts the gay and bisexual cultures could possibly adopt?. Why wouldnt it be logical to suggest the more its accepted the more people would be exposed to contemplate the idea. The definition of the word trend means to EXTEND in a general direction. Hence trends can create a 'snowball' effect.
Here are some random statistics on sexual activity. Notice at the end it states that 25.9% of 12 year old students are uncertain of their sexuality. Out of this 29% how many do you think could be convinced they are gay/bixseual if exposed to it as opposed to those that are not?
In Vermont, of 8,636 respondents in the ninth to twelfth grades, 5.3 percent of young men and 3.4 percent of young women reported having engaged in same-gender "sexual activity."
In Minnesota, of 36,254 respondents in the seventh to twelfth grades, 1.1 percent of students described themselves as "bisexual," "mostly homosexual," or "100 percent homosexual." Same-gender sexual attraction and anticipated future same-gender sexual experience was reported by 5.1 percent, and same-gender sexual fantasy was reported by 2.8 percent of respondents.
Uncertainty about sexual orientation declined with age, from 25.9 percent of 12-year-old students to five percent of 17-year-old students.
In Vermont, of 8,636 respondents in the ninth to twelfth grades, 5.3 percent of young men and 3.4 percent of young women reported having engaged in same-gender "sexual activity."
In Minnesota, of 36,254 respondents in the seventh to twelfth grades, 1.1 percent of students described themselves as "bisexual," "mostly homosexual," or "100 percent homosexual." Same-gender sexual attraction and anticipated future same-gender sexual experience was reported by 5.1 percent, and same-gender sexual fantasy was reported by 2.8 percent of respondents.
Uncertainty about sexual orientation declined with age, from 25.9 percent of 12-year-old students to five percent of 17-year-old students.
http://www.thebody.com/siecus/report/youth_issues.html Last edited on Tuesday January 17th, 2006 16:40 by Le Moor
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Blackthought Villager

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Posted: Tuesday January 17th, 2006 16:12 |
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true wrote: Blackthought wrote: I think to me its where you draw a social boundary.... we as people tend to push the boundary of society.. thats why there is law and you have ppl trying to constantly break it....
Thats your opinion, but it REALLY isn't about that.
What amazes me is that 20 years ago ... homosexuality wasn't widely accepeted in the society... soon as it was accepted.. what happened next... they start bringing it onto religion... now they want to get married...
People wanting to get married isn't as a consequence of it being relatively more accepted in recent times. Its because they feel they no longer have to feel like pariahs and have a little more freedom to be who they are. Wanting to get 'married' or have a civil ceremony is just a way of showing their dedication to the person they love, may not be a 'normal' heterosexual relationship, but some people want a way of formalising their relationship and showing their commitment to each other.
Now been gay isn't so cool and dangerous no more.... then you have a new trend BI-Sexual.... society accepted it to... but Nope the boundary needed to be pushed again.... You have BI-CURIOUS wtf ... errmmm... its seems like the IN thing now....
Being gay isn't cool lol. I don't know where you get that idea from cos I'm young and I don't think being gay is cool, and I don't know of any of my friends who do. Being bisexual isn't a trend either, only for a small minority of people it might be. As for bi-curious lol, all that means is a person who isn't ready to accept that part of themselves and prefer the term 'curious' to make it sound less bad (thats what I think anyway).
You have people now with both gender genitals....
Hemaphrodites?
Some cross dressing men who sees themselve as women....
Lol, can't say I understand this one.
Men with breast....
Gynecomastia?
Bro I am going on about people that get it done on purpose.... go to brazil and you have men that get breast implants... they get marrried to other men.. but the other men don't consider themselves as straight wtf... 
People with two genitals can be a medical condition... but I am going on about ppl that are doing plastic surgery to have this done on purpose...
When you look at it the original reason why people get married in religious term is to celeberate and bind two people of different sex together... i.e Man and Wife... (I don't want to get to deep in this.. its just long)... that is what the religion is about... so why would gay ppl go extra mile to get married and yet go against that same religion's belief... 
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Rusengo Villager
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Posted: Tuesday January 17th, 2006 16:47 |
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Definitions:
Homophobia, Heterosexism, and Sexual Prejudice
People with homosexual or bisexual orientations have long been stigmatized. With the rise of the gay political movement in the late 1960s, however, homosexuality's condemnation as immoral, criminal, and sick came under increasing scrutiny. When the American Psychiatric Association dropped homosexuality as a psychiatric diagnosis in 1973, the question of why some heterosexuals harbor strongly negative attitudes toward homosexuals began to receive serious scientific consideration.
Homophobia
Read interviews with
Dr. George Weinberg
from 1997 and
2000
Society's rethinking of sexual orientation was crystallized in the term homophobia, which heterosexual psychologist George Weinberg coined in the late 1960s. Weinberg used homophobia to label heterosexuals' dread of being in close quarters with homosexuals as well as homosexuals' self loathing. The word first appeared in print in 1969 and was subsequently discussed at length in Weinberg's 1972 book, Society and the Healthy Homosexual.
The American Heritage Dictionary (1992 edition) defines homophobia as "aversion to gay or homosexual people or their lifestyle or culture" and "behavior or an act based on this aversion." Other definitions identify homophobia as an irrational fear of homosexuality.
Heterosexism
Herek, 1990). Using the term heterosexism highlights the parallels between antigay sentiment and other forms of prejudice, such as racism, antisemitism, and sexism.
Like institutional racism and sexism, heterosexism pervades societal customs and institutions. It operates through a dual process of invisibility and attack. Homosexuality usually remains culturally invisible; when people who engage in homosexual behavior or who are identified as homosexual become visible, they are subject to attack by society.
Examples of heterosexism in the United States include the continuing ban against lesbian and gay military personnel; widespread lack of legal protection from antigay discrimination in employment, housing, and services; hostility to lesbian and gay committed relationships, recently dramatized by passage of federal and state laws against same-gender marriage; and the existence of sodomy laws in more than one-third of the states.
Limitations
By drawing popular and scientific attention to antigay hostility, the creation of these terms marked a watershed. Nevertheless, they have important limitations.
Critics have observed that homophobia is problematic for at least two reasons.
Shields & Harriman, 1984).
Second, using homophobia implies that antigay prejudice is an individual, clinical entity rather than a social phenomenon rooted in cultural ideologies and intergroup relations. Moreover, a phobia is usually experienced as dysfunctional and unpleasant. Antigay prejudice, however, is often highly functional for the heterosexuals who manifest it.
As antigay attitudes have become increasingly central to conservative political and religious ideologies since the 1980s, these limitations have become more problematic. However, heterosexism, with its historic macro-level focus on cultural ideologies rather than individual attitudes, is not a satisfactory replacement for homophobia.
Sexual Prejudice
Herek, 2000).
Like other types of prejudice, sexual prejudice has three principal features:
- It is an attitude (i.e., an evaluation or judgment).
- It is directed at a social group and its members.
- It is negative, involving hostility or dislike.
Conceptualizing heterosexuals' negative attitudes toward homosexuality and bisexuality as sexual prejudice – rather than homophobia – has several advantages. First, sexual prejudice is a descriptive term. Unlike homophobia, it conveys no a priori assumptions about the origins, dynamics, and underlying motivations of antigay attitudes.
Second, the term explicitly links the study of antigay hostility with the rich tradition of social psychological research on prejudice.
[Back to text]
Herek, G. M. (2000). The psychology of sexual prejudice. Current Directions in Psychological Science, 9, 19-22. [Back to text]
Read more about the paper
Shields, S. A., & Harriman, R. E. (1984). Fear of male homosexuality: Cardiac responses of low and high homonegative males. Journal of Homosexuality, 10(1/2), 53-67. [Back to text]
Definitions
How widespread is sexual prejudice?
Are some groups of people more prejudiced than others?
What are the motivations for sexual prejudice?
Does coming out reduce sexual prejudice?
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FredB Villager
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Posted: Tuesday January 17th, 2006 17:33 |
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Russengo, I hope you realise those definitions are a joke well two out of the three at least....
Simply pro gay propaganda the way I read it not authorative in any way.
Do you know for everyone of these pro gay authorities anybody can post 10 from an opposing view. I have books here on the medicalisation strategies used by gays to obtain influence eg turning homophobia into a psychological and some gay activists scholars go as far as suggest it is a mental condition. It is called normalising tactics you the minority created definitions which normalise you and render abnormal the majority. This is stale man, radical feminist done tried this and failed. Have you ever read the way the arbitarily use the term mysoginist which actually and literally means the hatred of women. Once you established an erroneous definition then you can advance even more spurious concepts in attempts to beef it up...
Old moves homeboy very old and tired moves.
It is called the marginal and abnormal attempting to use psuedo science to problemitise the majority and think by using fancy labels we cannot see what they are attempting to do. So bro if all you are going to do is post stuff like this you might as well shut this thread down.
I noticed as on the other thread when you are confronted head on in argument you switch tact and try something else.
FB
FB
Last edited on Tuesday January 17th, 2006 17:47 by FredB
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Posted: Tuesday January 17th, 2006 17:49 |
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Whilst I wouldn't equate gay rights and black rights, I honestly think that many people spend way too much time fretting about what 2 adults do sexually in the privacy of their own home. I don't care what they do, they are consenting adults and they are not hurting me so why would I be upset by them? Having them visible in society is not damaging (society is already damaged and most of them are still in the closet) and will not turn your children gay!
We wouldn't like strangers, let alone our own family and friends, to make judements about what we do in bed so why should we dictate what 2 men or 2 women can do behind closed doors? I'd be more upset if those men were peddling drugs or rapping about how their going to kill other 'ni***rs and beat 'b**ches' than if they were kissing up in their own yard'.
Last edited on Tuesday January 17th, 2006 17:51 by babygirl44
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Posted: Tuesday January 17th, 2006 17:54 |
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@Babygirl agreed but contradiction if that was the case he would seen no need to set up a thread and want to proseltyse and argue and keep it private.
So your comment does not relate to the facts. He started the thread and must have wanted to debate or why create it. When he could do as you say. Think you have the horse by the tail...
Futhermore in my eye this is a discussion about his claims eg heterosexualism as an ideology is nonsense. Factually and conceptually.
FB
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Posted: Tuesday January 17th, 2006 20:21 |
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Blackthought wrote:
Bro I am going on about people that get it done on purpose.... go to brazil and you have men that get breast implants... they get marrried to other men.. but the other men don't consider themselves as straight wtf... 
People with two genitals can be a medical condition... but I am going on about ppl that are doing plastic surgery to have this done on purpose...
Ok sorry, I misunderstood you. I get what you're saying now. Well I dunno about those specific people
When you look at it the original reason why people get married in religious term is to celeberate and bind two people of different sex together... i.e Man and Wife... (I don't want to get to deep in this.. its just long)... that is what the religion is about... so why would gay ppl go extra mile to get married and yet go against that same religion's belief... 
I personaly wasn't talking about getting married in a religious sense, but yeah obviously I understand what you're saying about going against a religion's belief.
I was thinking of it in the context of a lawful relationship (civil ceremony) not a religious one.
@Le Moor
What I have said is mostly based on me actually speaking to gay people and also me personally thinking about it. I haven't read anyone's research and those statistics I can't say I accept statistics generally as they can be falsified and highly inaccurate. But I accept that there may be some truth in what you say.
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Le Moor Villager

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Posted: Tuesday January 17th, 2006 20:39 |
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@ True
Respect 
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Posted: Tuesday January 17th, 2006 21:22 |
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I keep hearing this argument, why do people worry about what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own home.
7:00pm or 7:30pm, at home, telly's on and kids running around in the house, 5 year old little boy stops to see whats on tv. Emerdale farm is on. Little boy stops just in time to see two men kissing on tv.
Now are homosexuals really harmless ?
So now I have to explain to this 5 year old, that these people are wicked and when he gets older I will explain to him more why they are wicked and evil people. And that a man is made to be with a woman/ vica versa.
You stay there, Little leaven, leaven the whole lump.
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Posted: Tuesday January 17th, 2006 22:32 |
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Justavoice wrote: I keep hearing this argument, why do people worry about what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own home.
7:00pm or 7:30pm, at home, telly's on and kids running around in the house, 5 year old little boy stops to see whats on tv. Emerdale farm is on. Little boy stops just in time to see two men kissing on tv.
Now are homosexuals really harmless ?
So now I have to explain to this 5 year old, that these people are wicked and when he gets older I will explain to him more why they are wicked and evil people. And that a man is made to be with a woman/ vica versa.
You stay there, Little leaven, leaven the whole lump.
Emmerdale farm?
What?
Playstations are your friend.
On a really serious note. Saying that to your five year old kid will have either the opposite effect or worse. Put it this way if he starts killing gay people when he's in his 20's, you'll know what time it is. Also if he becomes gay then you're partly to blame also. Trying to "influence" how a child should "feel" about something, and how a child should "behave" themselves are two different things altogether.
Beware what words you use, you'll be harming him.
Think I'm joking? I hate Potatoes, because I was forced to eat them when I was seven by some crazy dinner lady. It works in that way.
But hey, don't take my word for it.
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Miyu Villager
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Posted: Wednesday January 18th, 2006 11:58 |
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Kunjufu wrote: Miyu: Hmmm i hear your point but i disagree I do not have to be 'nice' in my rebuttals, too often we are bombarded with lazy ill concieved political points such as this one in the mainstream media.. Worse how often are we bombarded in the media by so called 'studies' that is also legitimised by the authors credentials...its the 'oh it must be true' because he is a proffessor or he has a PHd...syndrome.
I accept your point of view and yes I feel the same way. I had the impression Rusengo was presenting a sound argument until I re-read the whole article, and that is when it sunk in as mere propaganda. Trying to justify an abnormality does not make it normal. And I do not want to see a Gay and Lesbian section here.
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