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COLTRANE
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Posted: Tuesday January 18th, 2005 01:16 |
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What do people here think?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1392275,00.html
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Posted: Tuesday January 18th, 2005 19:06 |
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Cole:
I can't speak for the UK, but here in the States......
Parochial schools are nothing more than well disciplined "public" schools that you have to pay for.
I'm a product of the public educational system but I knew a few kids who went to private Christian schools and their educational level and morals were no different than mine or any other average kid.
I suppose those faith-based schools in the past stressed morality and religious service, but now it's all about the money.
When kids in America send their children to parochial schools, it's usually in expectation that those schools will provide more protection and less violence.....regardless of the quality of education and morality they receive.
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LadyDay
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Posted: Tuesday January 18th, 2005 19:16 |
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| in the uk Anyone can go to a church of england or catholic school regardless of faith but these other schools you have to be of faith. i think the concern is whether or not faith schools in england teach about other cultures in particular british some get funding from giovernement so they got to take the crticism
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jamal786
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Posted: Tuesday January 18th, 2005 20:32 |
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I first saw this on the news. it was worrying how On the news they compared it to how religious symbols in france were BANNED because they obstructed aspects of citizenship.
They were not even saying the teaching is bad, but instead that the schools arnt multicultural enough and teaching the right level of citizenship type things. I dont see how they can generalise all faith schools in this way as there are good and bad ones, and i dont see how these schools can actually actually fail to teach the very basic concepts of democracy, public service and shared values.
it would be intresting to see the report to see what the specific failings were. however, from the way islamic schools have been singled out by the media and ofsted even though other religious schools are involved, i suspect this is an attack and propaganda attempt against islam.
where i live, many state schools are largely failing students in various ways, providing an insufficiant level of education, discipline, control, morals and values, and have a shortage of decent teachers. Therefore i think its ridiculas that in this climate that focus is INSTEAD being placed on faith schools, (of which many parents are actually queing up to get their children into whether they be islamic, jewish or catholic), because it is SUSPECTED that they are not getting enough education, NOT on core subjects, BUT on 'democracy, public service and shared values'.
Furthermore "ALL" faith schools is a gross generalisation, and secondly Islamic achools have been singled out.
...and i do agree that faith schools can cause narrow mindedness of pupils in some cases.. but i think that many parents ignore this in light of the problems the failing state schools have in many areas and sort of make the best of a set of bad choices by choosing a faith school in the hope of their child recieving a better education. i just think if the govt instead fixed up ALL state schools then the majority of children would go to state schools any how, instead the Govt want to focus on the deficits of faith schools instead of concentrating on the problems of state schools which cause parents to send their children to faith schools in the first place.
Rather than saying which is better (faith schools or none faith schools), the Govt should look at the state of Education across the board, and I have to say it is in a sorry state.
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COLTRANE
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Posted: Wednesday January 19th, 2005 05:54 |
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Rebecca Smithers, education editor
Wednesday January 19, 2005
The Guardian
Trevor Phillips, chairman of the Commission for Racial Equality, gave his backing last night to the chief schools inspector's controversial view that the growth of Muslim schools threatens "the coherence" of British society.
He said he agreed with David Bell that faith schools should be doing more to encourage diversity by promoting tolerance of other cultures.
Giving the Learning and Skills Development Agency's annual new year lecture in London, he said: "We can choose ... whether we want to bring our diversity together in a single rainbow or whether we allow our differences to fester into separate cultures and separate communities."
Speaking the day after Mr Bell drew the accusation of "Islamophobia" from Muslim leaders, he urged further education colleges to do more to use their "unique position" to encourage integration.
And he urged industry not to overlook the beneficial effect education has on society, as well as its tangible successes, such as league tables and numbers achieving qualifications.
Mr Phillips said: "Education is probably the most important site of social and cultural integration we have.
"Within that the further education sector has a unique opportunity to bring people together and meet people who are not like them.
"That is, in my view, the sort of added 'public value' that the further education sector can provide.
Public value, in this case in education, is about more than just individual value such as exam results, it's about providing a benefit to Britain that is social, cultural and economic. These values should not be overlooked or underestimated."
Mr Phillips, who himself caused controversy last year by his definition of "multi-culturalism", said he was disappointed that many students from different ethnic and racial backgrounds who sat in the classroom together were segregated socially.
"This is best illustrated to me as I visit different parts of the country and hear from groups of young black, Asian and white people who tell me, with some puzzlement, that after they leave the classroom they hardly ever meet - they go to different clubs, in different parts of town.
"Yet they also say that they get on, especially when they meet in college, where they share the same aim to be skilled enough to compete in the world of work."
Muslim schools18.01.2005: Anger at Muslim schools attack
17.01.2005: Full text of David Bell's speech
09.06.2004: Teachers lack faith in Muslim schools
08.06.2004: State schools 'must do better' for Muslims
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The Watcher
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Posted: Wednesday January 19th, 2005 06:21 |
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merged
and just to add my 2p the term Islamic schools is a misnomer in the UK. It is a euphamism for Asian schools. P*kistani, Bengali etc do not expect to find any Africans in these "muslim schools"
I dont have anything againts asian schools, indeed I wish africans had african schools... I just dont think they are being honets by calling the Islamic schools knowing damn well that non asian muslim are not welcome.
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Saida.M
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Posted: Wednesday January 19th, 2005 08:44 |
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It would be against the law to only allow asians muslims in a muslim school. I see african muslims in them.
Also, you do have to be of the faith in order to be in any religous school.
Some parents however PRETEND their child is of a faith, say catholic, in order to get their child in a particular school because it may have a better reputation, exam results etc.
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The Watcher
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Posted: Wednesday January 19th, 2005 10:42 |
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I live in an area with a few muslim schools and they are ALL asian. The state schools are all asian by default because the area is but they have one or two white and black faces.
The Islamic schools have people from all over (not just the local area) because they are in demand and they are exclusively asian.
Its probably not a policy athaba but if the Jews get away with it?? Like I said I dont have anything against them I just think we should have our own too.
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TahlibaBiko
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Posted: Wednesday January 19th, 2005 12:16 |
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Just last week the OFSTED reports on schools came out...that value added buisness.
Checking it out I noticed that the schools that were apparently doing well, based on a set criteria, were often Muslim independant schools or Cathollic schools. (grammer and other independant schools excluded)
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TahlibaBiko
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Posted: Wednesday January 19th, 2005 12:18 |
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DrunkMonkey wrote: I live in an area with a few muslim schools and they are ALL asian. The state schools are all asian by default because the area is but they have one or two white and black faces.
The Islamic schools have people from all over (not just the local area) because they are in demand and they are exclusively asian.
Its probably not a policy athaba but if the Jews get away with it?? Like I said I dont have anything against them I just think we should have our own too.
There are quite a few here in Birmingham and I've noticed the number of African (muslims) that attend these schools...But than there is large Somali/Sudan communites here in Brum.
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The Watcher
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Posted: Wednesday January 19th, 2005 12:24 |
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If so I take it back then... It must be just my area.
I see an all asian school (in practice) and wonder why there is opposition to all african schools in name.
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Sooofresh
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Posted: Wednesday January 19th, 2005 12:48 |
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Have you ever been inside a muslim school?
I used to go to a Saturday Muslim school...okay okay it is not a proper school, but their were alot of muslim Nigerians.
also
lets look at proportion , their are more muslm asians in this country then black muslims...so naturally this will be represented in muslim schools.
With all honesty i did not have problems their, but then i did not really intermingle
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Saida.M
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Posted: Wednesday January 19th, 2005 14:16 |
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DrunkMonkey wrote: If so I take it back then... It must be just my area.
I see an all asian school (in practice) and wonder why there is opposition to all african schools in name.
Is there?
(I'd love to know that someone even tried!)
I suppose it would be something if someone decided to start up an all African school EXCLUSIVELY for 'blacks'.
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Posted: Wednesday January 19th, 2005 14:20 |
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athaba
Ive seen it discussed on TV and heard it discussed on radio and the people who argue in favour of it are usually shouted down as being seperatist or racist. Debate on this issue doesnt even get into the mainstream.
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Ahmaad
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Posted: Wednesday January 19th, 2005 17:14 |
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Drunk Monk:
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I dont have anything againts asian schools, indeed I wish africans had african schools... I just dont think they are being honets by calling the Islamic schools knowing damn well that non asian muslim are not welcome.
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You're so right...to the point of it being shameful.
They may call it an Islamic school, but it's tinged with a dominant flavor of whatever nation the founders come from and all other cultures are clearly unwelcomed.
I think many just use Islam as an excuse to practice their own form of racism and segregation.
If you see some Somalis, Nigerians, or even AfroAmerican Muslim children going there, best believe they aren't allowed to express their family or cultural life as the other Asian children are.
You said that you didn't see ANY Africans in most of these schools but other posters say they have.
I can't speak for UK but here in America...ME NEITHER....
I haven't seen any black Muslim children going to the special Islamic schools set up by foreign immigrants from Asia.
But America is a more segregated society than Western Europe.
Most of these people just use the cover of Islam to practice a certain form of "ethocentrism" to the exclusion of all others out of their ethnic or racial group.
You see it here in America where a lot of P*kistanis and Arab Muslims will refuse to go to a Sunni Masjid or send their children to a Muslim school if it's ran or dominated by AfroAmericans.
They'll refuse until they make enough money to build their own.
...and there's nothing technically "wrong" with the act of doing that...but the racist spirit behind it is foul and dishearteninig.
Personally, I feel that ALL CHILDREN in a particular nation should be forced to go to a public school and get the same general education so that they may grow up knowing how to properly socialize and get along with others in the community.
Then AFTER school they can attend whatever functions they want.
But we should have a situation where Muslims or Christians or just plain racists don't want their child mixing with other children...so they hudle them off into isolation and they never learn to assimilate.
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The Watcher
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Posted: Wednesday January 19th, 2005 17:23 |
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Ahmad
I think you're misunderstanding me.
I actually admire them having an asian school. I want an African school. The only thing that got me was them calling it a Muslim school. It seemed to me to be a way of them getting an asian school while avoiding th obstacles that stand in the way, like those that stand in the way of African schools. Sneaky but impressive.
Anyway I have been corrected now as I can only speak for the schools in my immediate area and have been told its not like that elsewhere.
I am actualy FOR segregation of schooling, for early years students anyway.
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Posted: Wednesday January 19th, 2005 17:37 |
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Drunk Monk:
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I think you're misunderstanding me.
I actually admire them having an asian school. I want an African school. The only thing that got me was them calling it a Muslim school. It seemed to me to be a way of them getting an asian school while avoiding th obstacles that stand in the way, like those that stand in the way of African schools. Sneaky but impressive.
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Ha haa.....
I think you misunderstood and overlooked a lot in my post.
I acknowledged everything you said about them trying to justify segregation in the name of Islam.
I KNOW that's what most of them are trying to do because many of them come from racist cultures themselves and don't want their children going to school with black kids.
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Anyway I have been corrected now as I can only speak for the schools in my immediate area and have been told its not like that elsewhere.
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WTF man!
How can you be "corrected" when YOU were correct in the first place?
Maybe you guys are just speaking of England, but I can tell you that in America...they DEFINATELY are segregated and very ethno-centric as you said at first.
That's alright though, if you want to abandon your original point...
 I'll pick it up where you left off and take it further.
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I am actualy FOR segregation of schooling, for early years students anyway.
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I don't know....
I think this leads to a lot of trouble in society.
Not to go 
A multi-racial community can last for centuries, but a multi-cultural one won't last a generation because of all the cultural clashes.
Maybe I say this because I was born and raised in the West, but people shouldn't come West form other nations trying to establish "little nations" within the West and brainwash their children into THEIR cultures.
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Posted: Wednesday January 19th, 2005 17:43 |
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Ahmad
I too was born and raised in the west.
Its not about setting our own little nations here. Its about THEIR schools miseducating and not serving us... Their schools excluding us and ostracising us. Our youth shouldnt have to experience that when they should be learning.
There is a thread on this topic already though and I dont want to repeat myself here.
"They schools cant teach us sh*t, we trying ta get freedom, my peeps need all they can get" (Dead Prez 2000)
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Posted: Wednesday January 19th, 2005 17:47 |
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HERE IS THE THREAD ABOUT BLACK SCHOOLS
http://www.blackchat.co.uk/theblackforum/forum9/5662-1.html
Bear in mind this pertains to Black British schools
Last edited on Wednesday January 19th, 2005 17:59 by The Watcher
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Posted: Wednesday January 19th, 2005 18:16 |
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If the argument is that this society isn't teaching our children complicated mathmatics, how to master the English language, how to be properly prepared to make a living for yourself in this society....
Then work within the system and change it.
If that doesn't work, then I see the purpose of starting your own schools.
But not to teach ethnicity, to pick up were the public schools left off.
If you're planning to RELOCATE to a society of your own where skills in socializing with the dominant culture won't be needed, and you're trying to begin the process of re-education into a culture of your own and make the transition easier.....
Then I see the purpose of creating your own schools.
But as long as you are PLANNING TO LIVE in the same society as a more dominant group, than it's almost doing your children a dis-service to educate them strictly into a culture that will only bring them into conflict with those around them.
Again, I have no problem with EXTRA-CURRICULUM (spell check) schools that teach our children AFTER they leave the general public schools.
But to take them totally out of the system and segregate them into their own litle worlds...then expect them to grow up balanced and able to relate and get along with others in society is a disservice to them.
No match that with several other cultures doing the same thing.
Everyone has their own little culture growing up in their own little world.
....and the island of England is only so big.
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Posted: Wednesday January 19th, 2005 18:36 |
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like i said i went to a church of england school everyone had to do religious studies. if you did not have or come from a christian background you could study your religion for gcse. my muslim friends did her RE in islam
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Posted: Wednesday January 19th, 2005 23:33 |
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The articles is higlighting an institutional attack on "faith Schools" Specifically Muslim
I mean come on "faith schools" have been around in this country far longer than 'State Education'
Jewish schools have always been in existence wherever you find a large congregation of Jews...There are dozen in a particular area of Manchester
My own children as I did and my parents before me go to a catholic school(I know and I call myself a socialist)
Than there are all the other 'christian' faith schools that are admittably not so prolific as they were historically, but are still in existence...Methodist bla bla
Why as no one noticed before that these schools are "failing to teach obligation to society"
If I was a Muslim I would be very nervous and or very angry
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Fredblack
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Posted: Wednesday January 19th, 2005 23:58 |
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@All think Talibah et al put their finger on it clean. You only need to know how the governement Inspection stysem and the Inspectorate works to knows this is politically inspried crock of sh*t to attack and go after Muslims.
I used to be involved in Police Inspections and know they are crap and politically inspried to the degree I would know before hand who they were coming after and why and lo and behold what would they find and not uncommonly what newspapers/media organisations who were already briefed. Pure Joke business.
Some of you may not remember the use of the same Inspectorate system to attack the sh*te out of Brent Council Education Department when they had the neck to introduce pro black stuff eg history and culturally related material in the wake of growing awareness of racism in schools. The inspectrate. Can't remember the name of what it was called then, came down like a set of Ninjas to kill that dead.
Then they introduced the national curriculum and killed any attempt to introduce culturally relevent or diversity of subject matter stone dead.
So who are these people think they are fooling. They want to break up Muslim cultural centres and can't enter the mosque so attack their base in schools, so they will end up like us disjointed, culturally confused and weak.
FB
Last edited on Thursday January 20th, 2005 00:02 by Fredblack
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COLTRANE
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Posted: Thursday January 20th, 2005 00:25 |
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