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Gmahogany
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Posted: Monday October 2nd, 2006 16:13 |
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safetyblitz wrote: @ G
I know what you all are talking about, just wondering why it wanted to devolve into a slanging match when FredB is talking oranges and Spear and yourself are talking apples as you are all on the edge of a slanging match for two different sections of this topic is all.
FB seems to be comparing HBCUs to elite specialist schools and you and BS are defending HBCUs against predominantly white schools in the states period. They just seem like two different arguments, both valid.
Which is why I asked you all what am I missing because you all have connected these two in a fit that is making you clash .........
Understood.
We are talking apples and oranges, and the comparisons are unfair. Part and parcel of why I take issue with it. Eventhough the original question did not differentiate between the differnent calibers of Black Universities, or ask would u attend a specific one as opposed to Harvard or Yale, the immediate comparison was made,in everyone's mind. Morehouse vs Yale, not Morehouse vs Appalachian state, Howard vs Harvard, not Howard vs Coppin State or some other nondescript, majority cracker school. The underlying premise being that it doesn't MATTER what the caliber of the white alternative is, would u attend ANY BLack University. The implication being that all BLack schools are the same,read INFERIOR, and all White schools are the same, read, SUPERIOR. The reason everyone could run with that premise and not require any further clarification, speaks volumes.
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Burning Spear
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Posted: Monday October 2nd, 2006 16:21 |
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Blitz,
Of course the majority institutions have the resoures.That's a given.But its all relative.I wouldn't compare the University of Memphis with say Cornell.But that doesn't mean Memphis is not a bad school, just smaller, with fewer resources.Same with HBCU's
There are only so many slots for the top so-called Ivy League/Top tier schools.So what are the options for those who can't get into those slots? I'm never going to say that HBCU's in all aspects can compete with the resources with the top tier schools.We'll never win.But that 's not the entire story.
Fred B,
In your diatribe you forgot that DuBois taught at the AU (Atlanta University Center).Look it up.So, I guess that he taught at more HBCU's that the Ivey League was a result of the time he lived.
Its a well-known fact that scholars from the Carribean and Africa went to HBCU's in the days of Jim Crow.Those were the only schools that would take them. Kwame Nkrumah atttended Lincoln Univeristy in Pennsylvania.So lets not think that HBCU's are /was unknown to African/Carribean scholars and thinkers.Until very recently when the Harvard/Yales started throwing cash at them for chairs that they came a running.
Last edited on Monday October 2nd, 2006 16:23 by Burning Spear
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FredB
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Posted: Monday October 2nd, 2006 16:46 |
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@Safety did not see your other comments supposed to be working....Agreed I am not some fool who argues just to live in an all white neighbourhood is better than a black one because if that was the case I would have left my neighbourhood long time ago.
Same sh*t. I am talking about the best teaching and learning environments not simply white environments. As I said I have no doubt in my mind that the average black instution and teachers are better quality than their white average counterparts....
FB
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Gmahogany
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Posted: Monday October 2nd, 2006 16:51 |
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Burning Spear wrote: Blitz,
Of course the majority institutions have the resoures.That's a given.But its all relative.I wouldn't compare the University of Memphis with say Cornell.But that doesn't mean Memphis is not a bad school, just smaller, with fewer resources.Same with HBCU's
There are only so many slots for the top so-called Ivy League/Top tier schools.So what are the options for those who can't get into those slots? I'm never going to say that HBCU's in all aspects can compete with the resources with the top tier schools.We'll never win.But that 's not the entire story.
Fred B,
In your diatribe you forgot that DuBois taught at the AU (Atlanta University Center).Look it up.So, I guess that he taught at more HBCU's that the Ivey League was a result of the time he lived.
Its a well-known fact that scholars from the Carribean and Africa went to HBCU's in the days of Jim Crow.Those were the only schools that would take them. Kwame Nkrumah atttended Lincoln Univeristy in Pennsylvania.So lets not think that HBCU's are /was unknown to African/Carribean scholars and thinkers.Until very recently when the Harvard/Yales started throwing cash at them for chairs that they came a running.
Correct, Dubois taught at Atlanta University for over a decade if I'm not mistaken, longer than he taught anywhere else, I believe. Plus, unless my memory fails me, Dubois ATTENDED Fisk University, which is an HBCU, when he couldn't go to Harvard, as an undergrad, which would seem to support the argument FOR HBCU's, considering the unquestionably high caliber of Dubois' intellect/scholarship.
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FredB
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Posted: Monday October 2nd, 2006 17:09 |
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@BS said to Safetyblitz 'Of course the majority institutions have the resoures.That's a given.But its all relative.I wouldn't compare the University of Memphis with say Cornell.But that doesn't mean Memphis is not a bad school, just smaller, with fewer resources.Same with HBCU's
There are only so many slots for the top so-called Ivy League/Top tier schools.So what are the options for those who can't get into those slots? I'm never going to say that HBCU's in all aspects can compete with the resources with the top tier schools.We'll never win.But that 's not the entire story.
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Well I am glad you are partially agreeing with me. Would have been polite to address your response to me as I am the one advancing the argument from the start of this thread. But I will let that go given your hysterical disposition.
Sorry who said if a school is not amongst the big list they are bad schools. Again shows the same failing I identified that you are not addressing what has been said and have responded emotionally.
The question is not the politics of funding and all that stuff when you are advising a black student or parent or to give them a hard luck story about black institutions and there is only so much big money to go around. That is not their concern, but the best place where they can all things considered get the best and maximum outcome. That is the basic issue I have argued.
For your information I knew Dubois taught in a black institution but could not remember the name. But the fact remains his preference for others and why he produced his greatest work there. For example the Phildelphia Negro which is a masterpiece in statistical method was not done at a black university if I am correct and I can go on. Dubois studied in Berlin and under the great Max Weber probably one of the two top social scientist in western scholarship which tells you something about Dubois and his attitude to expertise..and how far he was prepared to travel or put up with to learn...
You side step the crucial and telling issue of why the leading black scholar or scholar PERIOD of his generation chose not to teach at the pioneering institution of its day Tuskegee. A place he could of stamped his authority and expertise over and influence generations of black students. The same for Franklin who instead went to Chicago and helped form the famous Chicago school of social science.
The issue is not where they taught historically or where they started out but what was their preference and why they made those decisions....These are not great people when it suits us and then fools when they make other decisions about what is the best place to do their best work .
Your argument about African and Caribbean students back in the days of Jim Crow is irrelevent. Lack of opportunties is lack of opportunities which has nothing to do with present discussion. We are not living in the days of Jim Crow formally so it has no relevence to current decision making. Yep my ancesstors like many would have been happy to have been taught in a ramshack of a class room with five hundred students if that was all there was to offer. But that was then not now...
FB
Last edited on Monday October 2nd, 2006 17:25 by FredB
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FredB
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Posted: Monday October 2nd, 2006 17:20 |
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@Mahogony come on sister be honest and stop bemusing me. You were not agreeing with me you were strongly disagreeing with me and started your post saying you were shocked by what I was saying. Now you agree with what I am saying. Well you can't have it both ways now can you and want me to believe you were genuinely engaged in a serious and honest discussion...
Especially given the premise of my argument is made clear from the first post....
Your other argument does not follow. Dubois's first choice was Harvard why because he thought it was the best place to advance his skills. I advise those who are up to it to apply and work hard to get into the best places available.
Dubois was rejected as the majority are on whatever grounds...that does not invalidate the desire to go to the best instituions around or by inference the sole rationale or best rationale for black universities...Because white folk will not accept black people. Black instiutitons are justified because they meet a need not because one as in your example leads to another.
FB
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FredB
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Posted: Monday October 2nd, 2006 18:25 |
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@Baco said 'The average millionaire in American is not a Ivy League educated investment banker, its the man who owns a pool cleaning company, the sister with the chain of hair shops, the latino who runs a construction company, the plumbing contractor with vision.
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Sorry did no see this in the rush to jump me...Well your salary with no respect is irrelvent of your level of expertise or genius. Study military triaining. The US and UK have some of the most impressive elite forces who are trained to an incredible standard of technical training...They are paid piss poor salaries....
So I here ya big time, but in my mind I make no connection between calibre and earings..They are two different things and depends on the sector you are in as much as your capability or skills.
But you are on the money though and I have kept an excellent edition of the Harvard Business Review on leadership and organisation where it is argued by many top people in the US that an MBA is not worth the paper it is written on. More great entrepenuers have made more money than most MBA graduates put together. In fact one Harvard professor said if the US economy had to wait on MBA's the history of the country in terms of great innovators would be completely different and less rich in every single way...
It is the big entrepenuers who make millions or billions who have little education who hire and fire MBA's or have academics jumping around the place for money and grants...and who pay the checks.... In fact I am a great believer that most people do not actually need this type of education, as opposed to getting out there in the real world and applying their talents.
Winstone Churchill is always used as an example but it is a good one of someone who was poor in school but was not when it came to leading a nation in a crisis...
Black people have an over reliance on formal education, because the barriers against us are so strong. Do you know how many white boys in this country or the US have literally no education and can buy and sell thousands of people with a snap of their fingers...
Hence why black graduates or too many of them are so arrogant and full of themselves...Because they make belief their paper is the world rather than what it is (a substitute for being in the real world) like the white boy who can simply apply his god given skills and make big things happen.
That is why we have this problem of too many black graduates in the black world who simply think paper entitles them to a good job rather than getting off their arses and making jobs..
FB
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Gmahogany
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Posted: Monday October 2nd, 2006 18:39 |
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FredB wrote: @Mahogony come on sister be honest and stop bemusing me. You were not agreeing with me you were strongly disagreeing with me and started your post saying you were shocked by what I was saying. Now you agree with what I am saying. Well you can't have it both ways now can you and want me to believe you were genuinely engaged in a serious and honest discussion...
Especially given the premise of my argument is made clear from the first post.... Nothing wrong with a little bemusement from time to time. Just because I'm woman enough to acknowledge that some of your points were valid, does not mean that I agree with you. I will concede that to SOME degree, I may have been arguing past u, to what I see as the larger issue. For that, I offer my sincere apologies. I firmly believe that how successful one ends up being, is way more rooted in what they already bring to the table and what they ultimately DO with their education, than it is in what school they attended. Most of the people whose intellects I truly respect, and who have been impactful on OTHER people's intellectual development, had very little in the way of formal university education, (much less, an elite university education)I also don't think that the original question posed, had anything to do with choosing between elite schools. For example, you apply to Harvard and Howard, you get accepted by both, which one would you choose? Many people attending college(and some who will never attend college) would never face that conundrum, and would probably be hard pressed to get accepted by either one, yet would still reflexively look down their nose at "Black" schools. I also don't believe that Black people's overriding concern when they go to college, should continue to be, which white company they can go work for, or how favorably white companies will view the college they attended. Furthermore, even if that is our major concern, no matter what top notch university we attend, they will still KNOW we are Black when we hit the door, and proceed the way the tend to proceed, in general, when dealing with Negroes. As Malcom said: "what does the white man call a Black man with a PHD? I'm sure we all know the answer to that,so I'll spare ya'll.
Your other argument does not follow. Dubois's first choice was Harvard why because he thought it was the best place to advance his skills. I advise those who are up to it to apply and work hard to get into the best places available.
Dubois was rejected as the majority are on whatever grounds...that does not invalidate the desire to go to the best instituions around or by inference the sole rationale or best rationale for black universities...Because white folk will not accept black people. Black instiutitons are justified because they meet a need not because one as in your example leads to another.
I wasn't arguing Dubois' desire to go to Harvard vs Fisk, or Marshall's desire to got to U of Maryland vs Howard, or Reginald Lewis' desire to go to Harvard vs Virginia State. People of their eras, thought the white man's ice was colder than people of our time do, and that's saying a lot. What I was arguing is that the fact that they were FORCED to attend Black universities, did not diminish their brilliance, but rather enhanced it and allowed it to develop in ways that I'm not sure it would have, had any of them been able to go where they WANTED to, initially, especially as young undergrads. In other words, Mr. Charlie did them a GIGANTIC favor.
FB
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Burning Spear
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Posted: Monday October 2nd, 2006 20:17 |
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Fred B,
What is your view of the University of the Virgin Islands (which is an HBCU) compared to others on the mainland of the US?
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Bacoo
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Posted: Monday October 2nd, 2006 20:51 |
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FreddyB wrote......So I am not suggesting you will not get a good standard of education in black institutions, particularly in Howard which I know from exposure and contact with people from there. What I am saying if one was to choose, simply on the grounds of expertise, kudos, exposure to superior techniques, resources and learning and other opportunities etc that in a wide range of disciplines black universities regardless of their achievements would not be able to compete.
Interesting, you left out a few major considerations, cost, location. One VERY strong motivator for some people with African blood to attend being tradition and the desire to support the institutions that continue to support us.
Had I graduated with $50,000 (or more) in student loan debt like many others here in the states I would have had greater difficulty leaving corporate employment and hanging my own shingle.
HBCUs would not continue to develop and grow without our support and input.
Just a little thing or two to consider.
And YES, I would be proud to send my son to many an HBCU because for some of us its not a question of how much we will progress from one generation to the next but the fashon in which we do so. So of us choose to support our own institutions instead off feeding those that have no interest in our progress.
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CeeCee
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Posted: Tuesday October 3rd, 2006 18:31 |
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Bacoo,
Nope! In general I decided to go to a White university, primarily because it was far cheaper than Spelman and secondly ,because I got sick and tired the hypocrisy that was taking place on the campus. Just like I have mentioned on a prior post if I wanted to experience prejudice like what I have witnessed on that campus, why not experience it on a campus where you know you're are morelikely to be a victim of it.
Burning Spear,
But that is the thing, I didn't grow up in a majority Black neighborhood and although I grew up in the outskirts of Atlanta( With the mayor of my small city being White) in general I grew up on the era of the late Maynard Jackson and Andrew Young, I did attend racially mixed and Black schools. Initally, I chose Spelman because of family traditions( My grandfather graduated from Clark Atlanta and my brother went to Morehouse). There irony of it is that while my grandfather wanted us to attend an HBCU, he warned my brother and I against Spelman and Morehouse because to him they were elitist schools, but wegnored his warning. For a while it was all good, but I just got sick and tired of some of those women and men on those campus thinking they were so superior over students who were from Clark-Atlanta and Morris Brown. I got sick of it, but like I told Bacoo my primary reason of leaving the school was because of my finances.
When I mean that I want to experience the "real world" is to experience the "what if's " of it. I know Black people who , like you said, spent all of their lives in the situaitons you mentioned and go to these schools because of racial security, Some of them go becuasethat , While others attend for historical reasons. I tried to go to Spelman college for historical reason. I was intrigued being called a Spelman woman and the idea of my going to a good liberal arts school, but I was turned off by some of the atitudes , hypocrisy and prejudice. I could have learned that from the White University I was attending.
I have never dissed all HBCU, only Spelman and Morehouse because I can honestly say that I attended it and didn't like it. I have never put all White Universities on a pedestal, though I liked my University and never had experienced the racism I anticipated from there . I only mentioned the real world because everybody you're going to work with is not going to be Black or African-Americans. Even with many Black corporations, there are Whites and others to work on and even the Morehouse school of mediceine have non-Blacks on their campus). Much as I hate it, some people should experience there will be a time where they will have to leave their comfort zones and be in a situation that he or she may not agree with. Although I never lived a racially sheltered life, I need to be exposed to it, so I can learn and deal with it.'m not against Black education/ White education go and get it, but with me and an HBCU like Spelman my experience turned me away from that shcool.
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bubz
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Posted: Tuesday October 3rd, 2006 18:48 |
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| @ ceecee: can u give some details/examples of your bad experiences at spelman?
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saywone1
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Posted: Friday October 6th, 2006 20:14 |
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Sure I would go to 'black' university/school and I would welcome one.
But what outcome would it have? Is it an institution run buy 'black' people with current teaching methods?
Would it have any repercussions on a white dominated work society? On that, I think a number of factors come into play which may conflict with current status quo.
Fileds like Nursing, medicine, and teaching can come into conflict because of traditionally varying methods which would not be to the benifit of the big corporations.
It would definately be an opportunity for more African/Carribeans to learn alot more about what is indeginous why it is crucial to maintain and appreciate it.
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