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mike pain
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Posted: Wednesday March 28th, 2007 14:43 |
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So I was having a discussion with my sister the other day about Christianity and passive resistance etcc we started talking about the conflicts resolved by force and those that were solve through pacifist means…..
We talked about Ghandi- about how his passive resistance supposedly freed India, I said It was more to do with the british empire being exhausted by years of war and it simply couldn’t afford to keep running India…there had been many Indian uprisings all brutally suppressed…
We talked about the ‘battle of Algiers’ how violent résistance helped to throw off the shackles of colonial rule…we talked about how violet overt resistance helped to garner world support for the African ANC cause, I told my sister that south African black majority rule had more to do with the fall of the USSR ( the western powers thought wrongly that nelson Mandela could be part of a new pro communist African state.
We started talking about martin Luther king and Malcolm-x as opposing figure heads.
She said that the 1968 equality act was more to do with king jr’s pacifism, I said It was more to do with the Black Panther Party, the Young Lords, the Weathermen and the Brown Berets scaring those moderates into thinking that millitant ethnic minorites could become a communist fifth coloumn within capitalist america,
We talked about vietnam and the over throw of french colonial rule and later the repulsion american vets ( the american public couldn’t stand to see the body bags coming home)by millitant vietnamese
I summarised by saying that sis, on the whole violent action (the type espoused by philosophers Omali Yesh*tela and Frantz Fanon) did work and did help emancipate
People on the whole, and that humans will never see an end to violence as long as compulsion through the state exists….
So I have to ask your opinion do violent protests and militancy do more for freedom than peaceful protests ..
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The Watcher
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Posted: Wednesday March 28th, 2007 14:56 |
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| Definately and I have a belief that where violence (or at least the threat of it) was not used for liberation, there isn't really a freedom worth crowing about. I think in reality and practice it's the only way to free a group, nation, people, cause. Make the oppressor scared. Appealing to the decency of an oppressor who has shown they have none is retarded and if you think you win out on whatever conscessions said oppressor grants you, tricknology was involved strongly.
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Apedemak
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Posted: Friday March 30th, 2007 14:33 |
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Theres always resistance to change, therefore change is a force in itself.
*Edditt*
'Change is the only constant'
Needed a reminder. 
Last edited on Friday March 30th, 2007 16:13 by Apedemak
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Dada
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Posted: Friday March 30th, 2007 20:19 |
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Can violent action ever be justified
Are always justified by those that commit them. 
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RasRuben
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Posted: Sunday April 1st, 2007 22:18 |
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Can violent action ever be justified
Well a person is considered violent if they justify it themselves, not if it is justified by others i.e. self defence.
Jesus says turn the other cheek, Moses says an eye for an eye. A person who is attacked by another with fists is expected to turn the other cheek, someone who is sexually abused, violence to defend themselves is considered just fine. Publically many christians speak to the effect, an eye for an eye. Privately there are always exceptions to the rule.
On a wider scale, if you are talking about peole earning their freedom, nowhere in history have I ever heard of a non violent person earning their freedom, even that twat Ghandi because he not only killed and hated Africans (was a fervent believer in the indian caste system) he always had plans ready if his non violence didn't work because he understood, non violence is an ideology and is not a long term solution. No way can anyone believe that they are going fight a battle against violence with non violence alone, it's not realistic and it is not ever going to bear lasting fruits.
As has been said, never has there been a people who have freed themselves by holding hands and asking the oppressor to give up their golden goose for nothing. If you ever want to taste your freedom, you need to be prepared to fight for it with the pen or the gun.
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Oblivion
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Posted: Tuesday April 3rd, 2007 07:54 |
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Mother nature is just about the most blood-thirsty, violent b*tch imaginable. We are nothing more than the product of nature's design - the product of violence that has no ending.
Without violence e.g the violent extinction of the dinosours and the domination of mammals on the earth through force - we humans wouldn't even exist.
Nature couldn't care less about justifications. It only cares about survival.
Therefore, in my opinion it doesn't matter whether or not violence is "justified" as such. All that matters is that we try to avoid it as much as possible - without dilluding ourselves with the idea that violence can be avoided forever.
You may walk through a beautiful jungle and see nothing but peace and tranquility. But look closer, and you will see raging violence everywhere.
Evil is a matter of opinion.
Last edited on Tuesday April 3rd, 2007 07:56 by Oblivion
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Jay Jay
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Posted: Sunday May 6th, 2007 23:58 |
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Can violent actions ever be justified?
If it is used under the guises of courage, reason, integrity and love for all, all of these represents power and in the long run has and will always overcome anything oppressive. It wins because it has no agenda other than the truth. Now I know people probably wont like what I say but.... most people the world over recognizes what Martin L. King stood and took a bullet for. He didnt have a sectarian issue or agenda. Malcom X and others like the Black Panther Party for example did have a side or separate agenda and represented a force that wasnt fully integrous (meaning love for some, not for all). When brute force comes against brute force the ones with the most weapons wins.
King represents power(knowledge), same like Ghandi and Mandela(he did more good behind bars) and they came out on top, which the world recognizes. X represented force which only a section of people holds up as he done good, because.... there was an agenda.
Power of knowledge always beats force/violence in the long run.
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Jim999
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Posted: Monday May 7th, 2007 02:03 |
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Oblivion;
There is no doubt as to the correctness of what you say; but is there more?
By that, I don’t mean the sentimentality of the goodness and love crowd, but at the same time, don’t we owe it to ourselves to aspire to a higher plane – AFTER having attained our material needs and goals by whatever method that works.
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Jay Jay
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Posted: Monday May 7th, 2007 10:26 |
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Jim999 wrote: Oblivion;
There is no doubt as to the correctness of what you say; but is there more?
By that, I don’t mean the sentimentality of the goodness and love crowd, but at the same time, don’t we owe it to ourselves to aspire to a higher plane – AFTER having attained our material needs and goals by whatever method that works.
I'll go one step further, it is because of the material goods and goals which people aspire to, is the root cause of the problems. Material goods only makes you comfortable and isnt the panecea, unfortunately people all around think it is, therefore violence.
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Monday May 7th, 2007 12:55 |
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Yes absolutely.....in fact i'd go so far as to state that you cannot gain true freedom without armed or violent struggle...... If someone gives you 'freedom' then it isnt freedom imo...
I can give give a few comtemporary examples when I believe 'armed' struggle is or was justified...
The london uprising of the 80's...when the police imo was in defacto war with the Black community...
Aparthied Azania..when the settler Europeans were at war with the original Africans of that region..
The so called civil rights period of America..again when the state is virtually at war with its Black citizens..
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Jay Jay
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Posted: Monday May 7th, 2007 22:06 |
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Catalyists and Resolutions, catalyists are pride and force to get things in motion to help commence a stuggle, resolution is swallowing of pride, courage, laying down of arms, this is eventual power which always wins.
Everybody is the armchair pied piper and never the pawn, in every case mentioned there were unique individual(s) who had the clarity of mind to rise above the nonsense of the masses and bring it all to a close, to resolve. Power always wins.
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CeeCee
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Posted: Tuesday May 8th, 2007 15:53 |
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Mike,
I don't avocate violence, but I would only justify it as an act of defense.
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Tuesday May 8th, 2007 17:54 |
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Jay Jay wrote:
Catalyists and Resolutions, catalyists are pride and force to get things in motion to help commence a stuggle, resolution is swallowing of pride, courage, laying down of arms, this is eventual power which always wins.
Everybody is the armchair pied piper and never the pawn, in every case mentioned there were unique individual(s) who had the clarity of mind to rise above the nonsense of the masses and bring it all to a close, to resolve. Power always wins.
Jay jay i beg to differ, what you call the 'swallowing of pride' i call selling out and conditional compromise on a grand scale... and further some would argue that Azania does NOt have ttrue power, or that Civil rights was won in American without direct action....
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theonethatstands
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Posted: Tuesday May 8th, 2007 18:33 |
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| To dwell on the issue of violence in dealing with NF scum/fascists. Back in the day the Jews battered them, then west indians and also asians beat them senseless whenever they went for a fight (also supported by anti-nazi league strongly) In other words, I think the fact they took such bad licks is one of the big reasons they declined, and cause minorities stood up for themselves. Others may disagree
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Jay Jay
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Posted: Wednesday May 9th, 2007 21:14 |
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Kunjufu wrote:
Jay jay i beg to differ, what you call the 'swallowing of pride' i call selling out and conditional compromise on a grand scale... and further some would argue that Azania does NOt have ttrue power, or that Civil rights was won in American without direct action....
I hear you, but what is selling out when in truth there is no sides only a tribalistic warfare thing that man has been playing since advancing from hunter gatherer.(ie: nonsense) Throughout history all sides had to swallow pride in some way, shape or form....all sides. If no one backs down a tiny bit or show some sort of courage to change how things are, conflicts will go on for aeons.
Love is the only force capable of transforming an enemy into friend." by Martin Luther King Jr.
The key word is transforming.
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comfortandjoy
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Posted: Thursday May 10th, 2007 10:08 |
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Jay Jay wrote: Love is the only force capable of transforming an enemy into friend." by Martin Luther King Jr.
The key word is transforming.
Is this supposed to mean that you can make people stop being your enemy/stop hating you and get to a point where they stop messing with you...by loving them??
Bullsh*t.
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Gmahogany.
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Posted: Thursday May 10th, 2007 20:30 |
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comfortandjoy wrote: Jay Jay wrote: Love is the only force capable of transforming an enemy into friend." by Martin Luther King Jr.
The key word is transforming.
Is this supposed to mean that you can make people stop being your enemy/stop hating you and get to a point where they stop messing with you...by loving them??
Bullsh*t.
I Cosign, Comfortandjoy.
I get so annoyed when people continue to perpetuate such drivel. Believing that there is something you can DO to make your "enemy" love you, assumes that you did SOMETHING to make them hate you in the first damn place. Such thinking is the hallmark of low self esteem and self hatred. It's similar to the abused woman who thinks there is something she can do, to make her abusive husband stop punching her lights out, every other day....have dinner on the table faster, not say anything to make him "mad", anticpate which channel he wants the tv on, before he tells her, etc. In reality, what she needs to do is wait for the mutherphugger to go to sleep, and hit him in the head with a pickaxe several times,if she can't manage that, shoot his ass, if she can't manage that, put poison in his food ,if she doesn't have the stomach for that,leave him, if he's the stalking type, she still may have to shoot his ass,(I've got a million more suggestions). At any rate, What she doesn't need to spend ANY time doing, is trying to figure out, why an abusive,degenarate,sicko, is beating her ass, and what SHE is or isn't doing/could,could not be doing to MAKE him beat her ass.
Moving on, the 2nd Civil RIghts movement DID have elements of armed resistance in it, INCLUDING some that BENEFITTED Martin King, and saved his ass, on an occasion or two. King HIMSELF had a gun in his home after his wife and baby daughter had been threatened early in the Movement,(had to be talked into removing it). Anyone who SERIOUSly thinks, that King and others could have gone through the Cracker backwoods of the South, talking that love bullsh*t to KLANSMEN, both official members and unofficial members, who did not think anything of killing a N****r, then or now(no matter how full of peace and love that N****r happened to be,lol), WITHOUT some backup, or some among them being armed, is DELUSIONAL. When I can remember the thread where we had a knock down drag out about issues like this, I'll post the link. It is filled with documentation/references of the FALSE DICHOTOMY/FALSE VERSION OF EVENTS, that was forwarded by "liberal" whites, and Tomesque Negroes, about "violence" vs "non violence", in the Movement. It was presented as if the only 2 viable options for Negroes was to be "blindly, helter skelter, wantonly,suicidally, violent towards randmom,"innocent" white folks, or sit back and perpetually take uncontested ass whippings/allow themselves and their children to be murdered, at the whim of assorted Crackers(Malcolm representing the first option and King the second). Utter Bullsh*t as C&J, so eloquently stated...
Furthermore, anyone who thinks that the changes that occured in the South had to do with some friggin TRANSFORMATION, is exceedingly naive. Don't believe the hype.
BTW, Malcolm X did not have a sectarian agenda, he had a COMMON SENSE/SELF RESPECTING/HUMAN BEING agenda, that said that if someone is launching UNPROVOKED assaults/attacks/trying to kill you/succeeding in killing you and your children.....you have ....the right....and the responsibility....to at least DESIRE to endeavor.....to.....defend.....yourself. Granted,unlike King, his main concern was NOT getting Black folks to LOVE white folks and be NON VIOLENT towards white folks, because Black folks WE'RE ALREADY DOING THAT,LOL. We didn't need any further instruction in how to do THAT, we had that down pat(as u might expect people to have anything they've been doing for CENTURIES,lol). We needed instruction in how to love ourselves enough that we wouldn't continue to ALLOW white folks to continue willy nilly abusing us and shedding OUR blood, whenever they damn well felt like it, We needed instruction in how not to continue to bust EACH OTHER'S heads open over minor bullsh*t, BECAUSE of all of the repressed rage we felt for allowing ourselves to be perpetually bent over by Crackers, without even the courtesy of vaseline, year after year, after year, and the fact that we were not directing the rage where it REALLY belonged., THAT is what Malcom THANKFULLY brought to the table, Peace be apon his name.....
P.S.- don't be impressed because "the world" "commends" you because of your capacity to let people defecate on you, and smile/pray/sing while they do so. Let me tell you something about human nature, people may SAY they respect you when you allow others to mistreat you, instead of putting your foot in their ass, but they DON'T. They may marvel at you, pity you, find you fascinating, like seeing a monkey use a tool, but they DON'T RESPECT YOU, not really. Furthermore, you can best believe that they are making note of this particular trait of yours for future reference. Why? Because one of these days, when THEY are having a bad day, and looking for someone to sh*t on, or f**k with,use as a stepping stone(sound familiar?) with no consequences or repercussions, they know exactly who to come looking for, YOUR masochistic, doormat ass,lol.
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Thursday May 10th, 2007 20:47 |
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Gmahogany just to add...it is extremely unfair to keep talking about MLK without also talking about Malcolm, the Black panthers and SNCC whose presence imo were equally important in forcing the whites to review their behaviour... They didn't change out of LOVE or transformation they changed because after the WATTS riots they knew they HAd to or else period..
From a UK perpective, they same thing happened in the 80's after the Brixton, Tottenham and Toxteth uprisings..the European wre FORCED to sit up and take notice....they didn't change out of love..but out of self preservation....
all this noble Black sh*t gets on my last nerve...it like anybody can do what they like to me and my race..but the moment i want to return the favour I'm automatically in the wrong..bollox to that!!!
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Gmahogany.
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Posted: Thursday May 10th, 2007 22:43 |
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Kunjufu wrote: Gmahogany just to add...it is extremely unfair to keep talking about MLK without also talking about Malcolm, the Black panthers and SNCC whose presence imo were equally important in forcing the whites to review their behaviour... They didn't change out of LOVE or transformation they changed because after the WATTS riots they knew they HAd to or else period.. Precisely,Kunjufu. In that thread I alluded to, or maybe in another thread on a similar topic, I mentioned that before Malcolm came on the scene, KING was seen as a troublemaker/rabblerouser/subversive, with Communist leanings. Some people never STOPPED seeing him that way(Whites and Negroes,btw), including former Governor of California and President, Ronald Reagan, and Tomesque Black newspaper columnist Carl T. Rowan. It wasn't UNTIL Malcom came on the scene that King's position started to look "moderate" and "responsible", all of a sudden. It proves that when people are subjugating you, there is no position you can take that is "meek" enough to suit them, EXCEPT one that allows them to keep sh*tting on you, so u might as well go for broke. It also shows that all that drivel about one person being too extreme is b.s. King wasn't saying anything different BEFORE Malcolm came on the scene, than he was after Malcolm came on the scene, yet King was considered EXTREME and subversive before, and "responsible", "moderate" the friggin "Prince of Peace" afterwards. Bullsh*t. The ONLY thing that changed was CRACKER'S PERCEPTION of him, and that changed because the ALTERNATIVE view, was more worrisome to them. Simple as, as you all like to say. Beyond that, only a FOOL weakens their bargaining/negotitiation position by revealing to their enemy/to the other side, that they are a ONE TRICK PONY, and prepared to only use ONE tactic,no matter what, forever and ever, amen. That's like going in to ask for a raise, and stating off the top that you don't plan to quit or look for another job,EVER, even if your employer tells u to stick your pay increase request up your ass,lol. To put it more succintly, KIng's "way", was only viable when it was put next to/juxtaposed to an ALTERNATIVE way. King and his ilk used Malcolm as a way of saying: "deal with me or you may have to deal with him, one day". When Crackers thought that all Negroes thought like King and no other options were even being DREAMED OF, they unceremoniusly told him to go jump off a bridge, and called him everything but a child of God, that's REAL. From a UK perpective, the same thing happened in the 80's after the Brixton, Tottenham and Toxteth uprisings..the European wre FORCED to sit up and take notice....they didn't change out of love..but out of self preservation.... Exactly. Of course they were motivated by self preservation. Since when have they EVER been motivated by anything else? In the Southern U.S., it was WHITE BUSINESS OWNERS, who led the calls for change, because all of the bad publicity was hurting their pockets. They would be overseas trying to conduct deals, having International clients ask them about footage of Blacks being attacked with dogs, firehoses, Black women being beatdown in the street by White policemen, being broadcast on TV 24/7(hey isn't that where YOU are from?), OR the U.S. government would be in SOMEBODY else's country trying to tell them how to run their sh*t, AS USUAL, wagging their fingers in folks faces about HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES/playing World POLICEMAN, like they are fond of doing, and then have to explain their OWN human rights abuses that were being put on blast, 24/7. Non business owning Crackers in the South, could not have cared less about the bad publicity and would have continued to do what they were doing til infinity. The Governor of Alabama at the time, George Wallace SAID as much in a speech. He said something to the effect of:"I don't give a damn what someone in AFrica thinks about how we treat our Nigras(Southern Cracker pronounciation) in Alabama, the average man in Africa doesn't know where HE is, much less where Alabama is. Furthermore, when Africans stop taking US aid, which partially comes from Alabama tax payers, I'll start giving a damn about what they think".......How's that for transformation of consciousness/conscience?,LOL. If it hadn't been for TELEVISION and the profit/bottomline concerns of white business people in the South/America being concerned about it's image and status as WORLD POLICEMEN/MORAL ARBITEUR, all that marching and praying would not have gotten N****rs anything but sore knees and feet, true story. Folks need to stop buying the FANTASY version of how sh*t went down, and get the real skinny,(and I'm just the one to give it to em).
all this noble Black sh*t gets on my last nerve...it like anybody can do what they like to me and my race..but the moment i want to return the favour I'm automatically in the wrong..bollox to that!!!
It works my nerves too. NOt only are we not supposed to return the favor or even DESIRE to do so, we're not supposed to even DEFEND ourselves against attack, or forcefully try to stop the attack. Rather,we're supposed to LOVE folks into not treating us like sh*t, We're supposed to attend workshops on how to better absorb the abuse and blows meted out by our enemies, WITHOUT responding, just let them punch themselves out, I guess, shed our blood, take our lives til they get tired, or have a phucking crisis of conscience or Epiphany of some kind. Boy I tell ya, they broke the mold when they made Negroes,never seen anything like it,lol............Last edited on Thursday May 10th, 2007 22:57 by Gmahogany.
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Jay Jay
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Posted: Friday May 11th, 2007 22:52 |
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| @ comfortandjoy thanks for the input, I've learnt more lessons about life when I was a 5 years old stuck in the middle in an all white racist housing estate with my siblings and parents, the whole estate decended upon our family home, sliced my fathers hand open with a switch blade and every single one of us had to hold up the front door, than you have upto this point in your life, to come up with .....bullsh*t. Last edited on Friday May 11th, 2007 23:50 by Jay Jay
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Jay Jay
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Posted: Friday May 11th, 2007 23:48 |
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Gmahogany. wrote: comfortandjoy wrote: Jay Jay wrote: Love is the only force capable of transforming an enemy into friend." by Martin Luther King Jr.
The key word is transforming.
Is this supposed to mean that you can make people stop being your enemy/stop hating you and get to a point where they stop messing with you...by loving them??
Bullsh*t.
I Cosign, Comfortandjoy.
I get so annoyed when people continue to perpetuate such drivel. Believing that there is something you can DO to make your "enemy" love you, assumes that you did SOMETHING to make them hate you in the first damn place. Such thinking is the hallmark of low self esteem and self hatred. It's similar to the abused woman who thinks there is something she can do, to make her abusive husband stop punching her lights out, every other day....have dinner on the table faster, not say anything to make him "mad", anticpate which channel he wants the tv on, before he tells her, etc. In reality, what she needs to do is wait for the mutherphugger to go to sleep, and hit him in the head with a pickaxe several times,if she can't manage that, shoot his ass, if she can't manage that, put poison in his food ,if she doesn't have the stomach for that,leave him, if he's the stalking type, she still may have to shoot his ass,(I've got a million more suggestions). At any rate, What she doesn't need to spend ANY time doing, is trying to figure out, why an abusive,degenarate,sicko, is beating her ass, and what SHE is or isn't doing/could,could not be doing to MAKE him beat her ass.
Moving on, the 2nd Civil RIghts movement DID have elements of armed resistance in it, INCLUDING some that BENEFITTED Martin King, and saved his ass, on an occasion or two. King HIMSELF had a gun in his home after his wife and baby daughter had been threatened early in the Movement,(had to be talked into removing it). Anyone who SERIOUSly thinks, that King and others could have gone through the Cracker backwoods of the South, talking that love bullsh*t to KLANSMEN, both official members and unofficial members, who did not think anything of killing a N****r, then or now(no matter how full of peace and love that N****r happened to be,lol), WITHOUT some backup, or some among them being armed, is DELUSIONAL. When I can remember the thread where we had a knock down drag out about issues like this, I'll post the link. It is filled with documentation/references of the FALSE DICHOTOMY/FALSE VERSION OF EVENTS, that was forwarded by "liberal" whites, and Tomesque Negroes, about "violence" vs "non violence", in the Movement. It was presented as if the only 2 viable options for Negroes was to be "blindly, helter skelter, wantonly,suicidally, violent towards randmom,"innocent" white folks, or sit back and perpetually take uncontested ass whippings/allow themselves and their children to be murdered, at the whim of assorted Crackers(Malcolm representing the first option and King the second). Utter Bullsh*t as C&J, so eloquently stated...
Furthermore, anyone who thinks that the changes that occured in the South had to do with some friggin TRANSFORMATION, is exceedingly naive. Don't believe the hype.
BTW, Malcolm X did not have a sectarian agenda, he had a COMMON SENSE/SELF RESPECTING/HUMAN BEING agenda, that said that if someone is launching UNPROVOKED assaults/attacks/trying to kill you/succeeding in killing you and your children.....you have ....the right....and the responsibility....to at least DESIRE to endeavor.....to.....defend.....yourself. Granted,unlike King, his main concern was NOT getting Black folks to LOVE white folks and be NON VIOLENT towards white folks, because Black folks WE'RE ALREADY DOING THAT,LOL. We didn't need any further instruction in how to do THAT, we had that down pat(as u might expect people to have anything they've been doing for CENTURIES,lol). We needed instruction in how to love ourselves enough that we wouldn't continue to ALLOW white folks to continue willy nilly abusing us and shedding OUR blood, whenever they damn well felt like it, We needed instruction in how not to continue to bust EACH OTHER'S heads open over minor bullsh*t, BECAUSE of all of the repressed rage we felt for allowing ourselves to be perpetually bent over by Crackers, without even the courtesy of vaseline, year after year, after year, and the fact that we were not directing the rage where it REALLY belonged., THAT is what Malcom THANKFULLY brought to the table, Peace be apon his name.....
P.S.- don't be impressed because "the world" "commends" you because of your capacity to let people defecate on you, and smile/pray/sing while they do so. Let me tell you something about human nature, people may SAY they respect you when you allow others to mistreat you, instead of putting your foot in their ass, but they DON'T. They may marvel at you, pity you, find you fascinating, like seeing a monkey use a tool, but they DON'T RESPECT YOU, not really. Furthermore, you can best believe that they are making note of this particular trait of yours for future reference. Why? Because one of these days, when THEY are having a bad day, and looking for someone to sh*t on, or f**k with,use as a stepping stone(sound familiar?) with no consequences or repercussions, they know exactly who to come looking for, YOUR masochistic, doormat ass,lol.
You've typed all of this and don't even come close to getting the point do you? how clever are you or should that be how stupid are you? If I mention love do you think I'm | | | |
