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Apedemak
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Posted: Tuesday January 23rd, 2007 18:13 |
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Do you belive in reincarnation?
There are various theories on it but do you belive that people are reborn as 'someone else' to continue part of their journey or any other version of what is essencially the same thing?
It has always been a part of African culture/spirituality so no hiding people! My question is. If there is such a thing as reincarnation... what did we do in our past lives to deserve what we are going through as a nation? Where did we go wrong?
Happy to talk/waffle about about reincarnation and the diffrent theories though.
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blessingfromgod
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Posted: Tuesday January 23rd, 2007 18:50 |
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"what did we do in our past lives to deserve what we are going through as a nation? Where did we go wrong? " Bloody good question Aped..., Did we defy the lord to the extent that we are now suffering as a nation since slavery.
My elders sisters last born was born days after my Grandmother past, apperntly she was a dead ringer for her when she was born, now she is said to have many of the same traits as my Grandmother such as food dislikes etc, her elder brother and sister have an weird respect for her, nobody bats an eylid when she is verbally scolding them etc, it odd.
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Tuesday January 23rd, 2007 18:59 |
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Nope...
There is no such thing as an immaterial soul to shift between humans after death. Your entire personality is characterized by the chemicals in your brain (RNA, etc.), which is totally of the physical world. As usual, the personality and behavior is what is said to dictate the placement after death.
If we assume that reincarnation does occur, then what happens when the death rate in the world is larger than the birth rate? Did God create some Soul Storage Structure, like a stack or a queue (for the software engineers) to buffer the souls until there is a body born for them to jump into?
On the converse, what happens when the birth rate is larger than the death rate in the world? Does God have souls being "created" out of some supernatural factory to meet the demand?
What about when we start cloning humans? Are they without a soul, or was that in the divine plan of reincarnation to give someone a cloned body?
In the end, reincarnation is just another belief system that attempts to explain what happens after death...and it is just as flimsy as someone waiting to judge you, some entity rewarding you with 72 virgins for some selfless deed, spending eternity either in everlasting fire or with some schizophrenic multiple personality disordered god, or any of the other "theories" about what happens after death. Peace...
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umbrarchist
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Posted: Tuesday January 23rd, 2007 20:09 |
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Believing, suspecting and knowing are three different things. Knowing is difficult, believing is stupid.
http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-proof.htm
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2001290023-2006410683,,00.html
http://www.softforall.com/store/Reviews-0684851938-10.html
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Last edited on Tuesday January 23rd, 2007 20:13 by umbrarchist
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Peacemaker
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Posted: Tuesday January 23rd, 2007 20:29 |
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Apedemak wrote:
Do you belive in reincarnation?
Yes, I wish I didn't. Nothing is more annoying than the thought of coming back here again to be frank.....it would seem like failure. Ignorance isn't bliss in the long term though.
Quite a few teachings out there tell you how find out what they were, via looking in the Akashic Record Book, via meditational practices, which involve things like Astral, Soul, Mental body travel etc, etc.
My advice though is to avoid them since they tend to be cultish(Scientology for example teaches it amongst other things) and within secret societies and the like. .. It's not all that important to know about though and only serves to be a distraction anyway. Buddhism is abit off, so looking there will only confuse people.
There are various theories on it but do you belive that people are reborn as 'someone else' to continue part of their journey or any other version of what is essencially the same thing?
The core personality remains the same, unless something happens here in life which changes a person, which happens to just about everybody, since society does change people in extreme ways.
For one example if a woman becomes too feminine in this lifetime lets say, they'll incarnate as a male next time to balance themself out....however they will be still attracted to males so they will be gay. And if a male becomes too masculine then they'll become a woman in the next life and be a lesbian since they'll still be naturally attracted to women. A phenomena which has increased within the last 70 years or so I've noticed.
Though incarnations tend to be gender specific, unless the above happens.
Another example is a person addicted to porn might become a porn star in the next life if those sort of lustful thoughts from this life follow through into that life. And the same goes for just about everything. One of the reasons mental and emotional discipline is all important. Lose control and you're open to all sorts possiblities, normally bad ones.
You don't become someone else, you just have a different body, in which to develop new attitudes, and beliefs which follow on into the next life for the most part, along with some of the previous ones as well. Obviously your direct memories of past lives don't. The conscious mind can only store so much as it is, and for most people the minute they die they forget about the previous life anyway, the same way you forget about the previous day awake while you're dreaming. So only the core personality which is.........insert name......... remains during the period between incarnations which has no set period.
That personality(attitudes, beliefs, etc) is dismantled and pushed deep into the subconscious around about the birth into the next life. Some of your previous lives stronger attitudes and beliefs, Phobias become activated during that lifetime, others don't. Some people who were Christians for example in the past suddenly become one later on in the next life, since the circumstances were just ripe (normally one of suffering) to activate that desire, attitude, faith or whatever in them, others may find something else that seems true and homely to them, since subconsciously they're familar with it, so naturally it would.
It has always been a part of African culture/spirituality so no hiding people! My question is. If there is such a thing as reincarnation... what did we do in our past lives to deserve what we are going through as a nation? Where did we go wrong?
Better to think in terms of I instead of we. It's actually worse in someways to be in the English speaking nations, since that's where people develop alot of their problems. For example alot of serial Killers come from the United States, the United Kingdom, and Australia...more so than other countries. The psychological problems westerners develop are much much worse than what occurs elsewhere in the world. Selfishness, greed, arrogance, racism, sexual perversions, etc, etc. And unfortunately it's purely the psychological aspects which decides what type of life you'll end up leading in the future. The only things set in stone are when you're born and when you die....but not how you die I might add.
People who commit suicide only delay their suffering, though next time they'll be better equipped to deal with whatever caused them to top themselves, but they will still face that same suffering.
It's not what people have done wrong in the past that is important, it's what people are doing wrong now which people should concern themselves with......and that's should include just about everybody. You're thinking too much about black people materially, that's why you think blacks have gone wrong somehow. From where I'm sitting Africans in Africa haven't at least. Elsewhere blacks are in the same position as whites since as far as I can see they have the same attitudes and same desires and goals for the most part. They sure as hell have the same problems, which tend to be spiritual ones.
Spiritually Africans in Africa are no worse off than anyone else, in fact out of all I'd say whites probably have it worse Spirituality, since they're in the west which is where most of the negative psychological changes happen, coupled with excess drinking, and drug taking things are pretty bad for some. That's what alot of them have to look forward to unwittingly. A restful spirit it isn't.
Don't take my word for it.
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Peacemaker
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Posted: Tuesday January 23rd, 2007 20:45 |
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Shemsi en Tehuti wrote: If we assume that reincarnation does occur, then what happens when the death rate in the world is larger than the birth rate?
Something is going right when that happens. Also you'd be assuming that this is the only plane of existence.
Did God create some Soul Storage Structure, like a stack or a queue (for the software engineers) to buffer the souls until there is a body born for them to jump into?
Something like that. Call it the subconscious without the body. Others call it the Astral.
On the converse, what happens when the birth rate is larger than the death rate in the world?
Obviously alot of people want to be here. That normally is a bad thing.
Does God have souls being "created" out of some supernatural factory to meet the demand?
Souls aren't created. Some can decide to come and expeience life for the first time if they so desire. Very rare though. Most seem to be trapped.
What about when we start cloning humans? Are they without a soul, or was that in the divine plan of reincarnation to give someone a cloned body?
Would a soul choose to enter a cloned body? Probably not if it had the choice. However. It would be interesting to see what would happen. You'll find that it would behave more like an animal.
In the end, reincarnation is just another belief system that attempts to explain what happens after death...and it is just as flimsy as someone waiting to judge you, some entity rewarding you with 72 virgins for some selfless deed, spending eternity either in everlasting fire or with some schizophrenic multiple personality disordered god, or any of the other "theories" about what happens after death. Peace...
The way it is decribed by most it is only a belief system.
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umbrarchist
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Posted: Tuesday January 23rd, 2007 21:06 |
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It has always been a part of African culture/spirituality so no hiding people! My question is. If there is such a thing as reincarnation... what did we do in our past lives to deserve what we are going through as a nation? Where did we go wrong?
Actually I ran across one book that said people can switch races. So karma would dictate that a White racist might find out what it is like in another life. Like apparently one of the things we are supposed to learn is how irrelevant these superficial things are. It's a big play ground but a lot of the kids are really dumb.
um
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umbrarchist
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Posted: Tuesday January 23rd, 2007 21:29 |
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Shemsi en Tehuti wrote: If we assume that reincarnation does occur, then what happens when the death rate in the world is larger than the birth rate?
It is a question of is there a place to hang out between lives? Look at the population growth over the last 200 years. If the system works on reincarnation where have all those souls been?
What is SHEOL?
The word HELL is not actually in the Bible.
http://www.bibletopics.com/BibleStudy/149.htm
Sheol In ancient Jewish beliefs, the dwelling place of the dead: "the land of gloom and deep darkness" (Job 10:21). It was generally believed that the good and the wicked alike dwell in Sheol. The apocryphal First Book of Enoch, however, describes Sheol as being divide into different regions, where the dead are rewarded or punished according to the lives they led. ("If This Goes On—", Starship Troopers)
SF Info
Jesus was Jewish afterall. How often do you hear about Jews believing in reincarnation? Why was the Catholic Church persecuting them for centuries. Everyone is supposed to toe the Catholic line. The Protestants haven't fallen that far from the tree.
Recycled Jews
How much does the Catholic Church say about Melchizedek?
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen042.html
I only learned a few years ago that there is a controversy over who wrote The Epistle to the Hebrews. My encyclopedia Britannica says:
| The lnguage of Hebrews is extremely polished, elegant and cultured Greek, the best in the New Testament. |
Hebrews is normally attributed to Paul but the difference from other writings known to be by Paul makes this suspect. Another difference which I haven't seen much mention of is that Melchizedek in named 9 times in Hebrews. There are only 2 others in the entire Bible, Genesis and Psalms, which certainly weren't written by Paul. So why does Paul suddenly go Melchizedek crazy in Hebrews? Maybe someone a lot smarter and more knowledgeable than Paul wrote it and we don't know who.
umbrarchistLast edited on Wednesday January 24th, 2007 05:03 by umbrarchist
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Apedemak
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Posted: Wednesday January 24th, 2007 15:29 |
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Sorry. Wrong room.
Gonna try get it moved.
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Apedemak
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Posted: Friday January 26th, 2007 11:58 |
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"what did we do in our past lives to deserve what we are going through as a nation? Where did we go wrong? "
I didn't mean that in some kind of bad way. Some people would (like to) have us think that because we prayed to ''diffrent'' Gods we were cursed or that we fell behind the rest of the world or some non sence when we had buildings and metal works just as everyone else did and belived that God was in everything. I was semi disproving the whole Karma debt thing we were talking about in STs topic.
Your entire personality is characterized by the chemicals in your brain (RNA, etc.), which is totally of the physical world.
But whats the driving force behind the khemicals? My personality has changed since I was a kid and when I win the lottery no doubt they'll change again. Reincarnation has to do with us as energy matter rather than anything physical, as energy never dies we are said to be recycled in the same way water goes through a cycle, evaporating, dissapating into the air and coming back down as rain again. I guess the, 'waiting room' would be where the water is trapped as humidty waiting to become rain again. Peacemaker mentions it, what we go through impacts on our personality.
In the end, reincarnation is just another belief system that attempts to explain what happens after death...
Some theories yeah, I don't like the Hindu version. Its more or less the evolution theory based on Karma. If you do bad as a human you're said to come back as an animal thats as low down the cycle as your actions. Might be why there are more rats in the world than there are humans but personally I think thats attaching human qualities to animals, rats might have their own thing going on for all we know.
Some theories have it that there are animals higher up the chain than we are, Lizards, Cats and Birds for e.g so as part of our development as travelling energy matter we might incarnate as a cat, might bring that up with the teachers at the Asaur Auset Society, they don't seem to like that one. The concept of immortality is the idea of keeping your idenitity over incarnations so you'd have all the knowledge of your past experiences. Like the Dali Lama. If any group can validate the idea of reincarnation its the Tibetan Monks its not as though they don't make sure they've got the right person. Only thing with that is that he always seems to be another Tibetan... why dosen't he reincarnate as an Aborigonee? Unless he can control who he incarnates as and chooses to come back as another Tibetan.
It's not all that important to know about though and only serves to be a distraction anyway. Buddhism is , so looking there will only confuse people.
Not all that important? Being able to intuit knowledge from past incarnations, know what happens after death etc etc? To know your full capability as a human being and why do you think Buddahism is abit off? It hardly has anything more to it than knowledge of self.
Better to think in terms of I instead of we.
Its we (Africans). We are a collective no matter how well we do individually it all impacts on the individual.
It's actually worse in someways to be in the English speaking nations, since that's where people develop alot of their problems. For example alot of serial Killers come from the United States, the United Kingdom, and Australia...more so than other countries. The psychological problems westerners develop are much much worse than what occurs elsewhere in the world. Selfishness, greed, arrogance, racism, sexual perversions, etc, etc. And unfortunately it's purely the psychological aspects which decides what type of life you'll end up leading in the future.
True. Has nothing to do with us though, other than what might rub off on us if thats what you mean.
You're thinking too much about black people materially. That's why you think blacks have gone wrong somehow.
Self preservation in a country ruled by an imbalanced people. I don't want to share their; attitudes - desires and goals for the most part.
Gotta get something to eat.
HTP
RL
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Peacemaker
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Posted: Friday January 26th, 2007 13:04 |
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Apedemak wrote:
Not all that important? Being able to intuit knowledge from past incarnations, know what happens after death etc etc?
Depends what your goal is I suppose. Mine would be to never incarnate again, so I prefer to deal with the here and now. The only use I can see in knowing many of your past lifes is to find out what bad habits and attitudes you have that might need correcting. You could call it correcting bad karmas I guess.
To know your full capability as a human being and why do you think Buddahism is abit off? It hardly has anything more to it than knowledge of self.
The incarnating into animal form is one of the reasons.
Plus their idea that there is a realm of Titans, Jealous gods, Hungry Ghosts doesn't help matters.
Where Buddhism is fine is that fact that it accepts reincarnation as fact, which already puts it way ahead of any other major belief system out there.
Its we (Africans). We are a collective no matter how well we do individually it all impacts on the individual.
Well if my spiritual goal is to never incarnate again, I can't be too addicted to being African or human for that matter can I. I'd just come back again. And if my goals are different to other Africans and people in generally then it would be counter-productive for me to think in terms of "we". In material matters, fine if the collective goal is improvement and progress. For anything else I'm purely selfish.
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Apedemak
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Posted: Friday January 26th, 2007 17:19 |
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Mine would be to never incarnate again, so I prefer to deal with the here and now.
Good point.
For anything else I'm purely selfish.
Then you fall into egotism.
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Peacemaker
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Posted: Friday January 26th, 2007 19:38 |
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Apedemak wrote: .
Then you fall into egotism.
I'm not a Buddhist so I don't that as a problem.
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The Watcher
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Posted: Friday January 26th, 2007 20:01 |
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Apedemak wrote:
Do you belive in reincarnation? No. Whatever consciousness is I don't seperate it from the electrochemical reactions in the brain. When they stop I suspect that whatever makes me me stops existing. Hence no life after death, no eternal soul and no reincarnation. I believe a baby is a fairly blank slate which develops according to environment and a person is largely a sum of their experiences. Largely because I think character traits like aggression or lazyness can be hormonal and have genetic basis, ie inherited from parents. So I think a person is whatever genes their parents gave them that can affect behaviour and the sum of their experiences.
I do not believe that any part of a persons personality make up came from a pre existing soul.
There are various theories on it but do you belive that people are reborn as 'someone else' to continue part of their journey or any other version of what is essencially the same thing? It makes no sense. If I was reincarnated why can I not remember? Don't point out the one or two in a million who say they can remember being Cleopatra or whatever. If not everybody can remember then there is no point in it. Even given your "soul" (whatever it is) can be put in another body, since you start from scratch as a baby with new experiences, new parents, new friends, new life to shape and change and mould you it's not YOU. It's a whole other person. Nothing of your recalls, nothing learns, nothing continues. In which way is this continuation? Then... Why bother reincarnating me for karma to punish or reward me if I don't know? If I was a rich greedy mean b**tard before and now I'm a starving street urchin I should know why I'm being punished (or it's no punishment) and furthermore which agency is out there organising such punishments and childishness? Also since I'm now a starving urchin does that mean in my next life I go back to being rich again? What confounded loopy loop system is this? Who organised it? And who is the lucky one who remembered it all and told us? Why should we believe this person? Is there a rest period in between where I can remember all my lives and collect my thoughts and lessons, some amalgamous me which comprises the learnings and shapings from all my various lives? How could that "whole" soul resemble anything like one of my many incarnations. I may be a priest in one life and a killer in the next. Which is me?
It has always been a part of African culture/spirituality so no hiding people! My question is. If there is such a thing as reincarnation... what did we do in our past lives to deserve what we are going through as a nation? Where did we go wrong? So now Nations get reincarnated too? Not just individuals? Interesting... Where then is the white people's comeuppance? 500 years is a long time non? If an evil slave owner was incarnated as a starving indian in Dehli then how is that justice or karma for the long dead black slaves or punishment for the non remembering innocent thinking indian?
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HLF
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Posted: Sunday January 28th, 2007 17:58 |
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Belief is the obstructive wall to knowing and comprehension, just as the physical, deemed the seen and knowable, can be a perceivable veil to the spiritual, commonly viewed as the unseen and "unknowable", but both are knowable.
The major difference is that it takes a certain kind of receptivity to be aware of that deemed "unseen" and "unknowable" to the masses.
Previous existences as this existence is but a learning experience, upon this plane. Some do learn and "get it" but many are being retained in the same grade level inside of this realm of learning.
What does reincarnation mean? Etymologically, "back again". Back again from where? From the primary plane from that which animates us, the spirit, flows far more freely. Some believe it exists, some know that it exists, but most probably won't know until they experience it for themselves. By then they may find out that answer, but are enroute back to the physcial plane to learn the lesson(s) they may not have effectively learned...only to forget consciously about that higher plane of existence beyond the seen.
What a nation experiences has different implications than what an individual experiences, but no truth is beyond attainment if one seeks it ardently enough. Confusion and lacking of understanding is no shackle to he/she who constantly seeks truth, wisdom and understanding, for it is given to him/her.
But as truth reveals, there is a difference between Karmic Debt (individual) and Spiritual obligation (group/nation); some may have more than others.
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defyfear
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Posted: Monday January 29th, 2007 16:00 |
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It has always been a part of African culture/spirituality so no hiding people!
If it was so, then this African culture would not know of Europeans and second the grounds of such a belief would mean everything in that culture/spirituality is a constant.
Check the thread about the Maroons in Suriname in the Black Roots forum. They speak of reincarnation. The lives/culture they lived followed a constant after being overthrown during slavery. Now those beliefs are overthrown again with environmental degredation and exclusive development.
We are living in a world where constants are and have been overthrown, destroyed and replaced. There is no place for reincarnation hold true too.
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umbrarchist
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Posted: Monday January 29th, 2007 16:40 |
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It has always been a part of African culture/spirituality so no hiding people!
So what does that mean in combination with this?
Scientific Proof of Reincarnation
Dr. Ian Stevenson's Life Work
http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-proof.htm
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Posted: Tuesday January 30th, 2007 02:55 |
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So what does that mean in combination with this?
Scientific Proof of Reincarnation
Dr. Ian Stevenson's Life Work
http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-proof.htm
umbrarchist
Wow this is some amazing and at the same time gruesome stuff, it would appear if reincarnation from Stevenson case resulted in a very unlawful and unhappy lives.
Omni: What about cases of childhood mental illness?
Stevenson: There again you will find cases of children acting as if they did not belong in their families. They treat parents and siblings with indifference, even hostility. This phenomenon is usually thought to have been caused by infantile trauma. Some theorists even try to explain it as the result of parents rejecting the child--before it has been born. Researchers look to the parents for the first cause. Comparatively little attention is given to the child, even though there is evidence that some children reject their parents before the parents have a chance to reject them. I suggest that such behavior could result from unhappy experiences in a previous life.
Omni: What would predispose someone to remember a previous life?
Stevenson: Violent death is a factor in our cases. In more than seven hundred cases in six different cultures, sixty-one percent remembered having died violently. But are these cases actually representative? Those involving accidents, murders, and suicides are bound to get more attention than others in which the child remembers a quiet life. Children also tend to remember the final years or a previous life. Almost seventy five percent of our children appear to recall the way they died, and if death was violent, they remember it in vivid detail
Reincarnation in this case means unfinished business of the violent kind. If so, we are in for some real gruesome period of time to come.
Omni: You've said that more girls remember boys' lives than the reverse.
Stevenson: That's right. The overall ratio is two to one. Of one hundred sex-change cases [cases in which the child recollects having been a different sex in a previous life], sixty-six will be females remembering previous lives as boys. I've discussed this in some Burmese cases. It may be culturally more acceptable in Burma to say that you, as a girl, were once a boy than the reverse. A boy would be teased mercilessly. It is easier to come up with statistics than to interpret them. In a culture in which to change one's sex is not acceptable, perhaps such cases are never reported even when they do occur.
Imagine that! Reincarnation would be very troublesome for our views of the sexes and their roles in our societal notions. Coming back as a girl would be very peculiar knowing you were a boy at that. This would make excellent children storybook material.
Omni: Why do American children have so many less concrete and verifiable memories than Asian children do?
Stevenson: I have speculations and conjectures. First, Americans are nomadic. A fifth of all Americans move from one community to another each year, and a quarter move within the community, changing their neighborhood and environment. Some of the Asian children's memories are stimulated by their noticing slight environmental differences. If the difference is great, that stimulus may be missing.
Turning the question the other way around, why do certain Asian cultures have so many cases? To begin with, these cultures remember their dead more than we do and see them as still being actively involved in life; they also have stronger family ties. To them there is no such thing as random fate. Everything happens for a reason, and that reason often has to do with someone who wishes them well or ill. They also believe, much more than we do in the West, in telepathy. the paranormal, and that dreams foretell the future. They are not clock-watchers as we are; they have time to reflect on their lives. All these factors may have some bearing on this question and perhaps put them in closer touch with their past lives.
Reference to the matter of constants. But in Stevensons words not my own.
One thing though, what happens to those who have a happy life, do they really come back like the unhappy ones.
If you live a happy and lawful life, it appears you dont come back and finally find that eternal rest at least from this life.
Simply amazing with a very analytical twist. But very troublesome for this world we live in. I see alot of unhappy faces in the country. If they die unhappy we will see more of unhappy hell to come with this reincarnation through children. India is already getting saddled with violent abused reincarnated children.
Our ancestors really strive to see us to be a happy and content people.
This piece gave me more incite into a matter I deeply feel in myself.
Thanks.
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umbrarchist
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Posted: Tuesday January 30th, 2007 17:38 |
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Reference to the matter of constants. But in Stevensons words not my own.
One thing though, what happens to those who have a happy life, do they really come back like the unhappy ones.
If you live a happy and lawful life, it appears you dont come back and finally find that eternal rest at least from this life.
Simply amazing with a very analytical twist. But very troublesome for this world we live in.
It depends on how the system works. It may be more than a matter of being happy. Attaining a point of having no negative karma would be one ingredient of happiness but getting off the wheel might require more advancement than that.
Hebrews 2
| 6 It has been testified somewhere, "What is man that thou art mindful of him, or the son of man, that thou carest for him? 7 Thou didst make him for a little while lower than the angels, thou hast crowned him with glory and honor, 8 putting everything in subjection under his feet." Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. As it is, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him. 9 But we see Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for every one. |
Hebrews is a rather peculiar book.
um
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