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One Zero Seven
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Posted: Thursday September 7th, 2006 07:02 |
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In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...the Best Knower.
As-Salaam Alaikum (God's Peace be Unto You)
I was watching one of my favorite movies yesterday - "Contact" - and I started wondering about perceptions of Time. If any of you have seen the movie, you know there was a part in there where Jodi Foster's character had an "experience" which lasted, by her estimation, about 18 hours. However, the observers of the experiment said the even lasted only a "fraction of a second".
Step away from that for a moment...
If we take any "unit" and begin cutting it in half, conceptually, we can never get to the point where the end result is "zero". So any "unit", mathematically, can be divided into an infinity of subdivisions.
Back to the movie..
From the information above, if we take a "fraction of a second" as a unit unto itself, then that "fraction" of a second can be divided into an infinity of smaller divisions of time.
F = fraction of a second
F x 1/2 = F/2
F/2 x 1/2 = F/4
F/4 x 1/2 = F/8
So that F/a x 1/n = F/an, (a > 0, n > 0)
By this equation/formula, we can see that the "unit" gets ever smaller, but never approaches "zero". Therefore, any abstract unit can be reduced an infinite number of times, which means it contains infinity.
So then, is it possible for a mind which is tuned to a sufficiently high frequency to experience a "fraction of a second" as a whole day...or a week...or...??
What do you think?
RM
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Breadfruit
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Posted: Thursday September 7th, 2006 14:37 |
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Isn't that what happens when we dream?
A person can dream a whole heap of experiences in a few minutes.
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Thursday September 7th, 2006 17:22 |
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| The speed of a thought is almost as fast as the speed of light or electricity. No need to take everyone back to modern physics class here, but the faster objects move, the slower time is with respect to them. Just as if you went in a space ship travelling at light-speeds around the Universe for 1 year and then came back to Earth, time with respect to Earth will have elapsed a 100 years or so more while you would only be 1 year older. Given this in theory, we could deduce that our dreams our merely a series of thoughts, where our thoughts are electrical current pulses through neural networks of the brain and nerves thereby travelling at almost the speed of light. Therefore, we could hypothesize that our dreams can last much longer because an almost infinite number of electrical pulses can propagate through the brain's neural networks within one nights sleep, let alone the theories of relativity. Last edited on Thursday September 7th, 2006 17:26 by Shemsi en Tehuti
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Apedemak
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Posted: Thursday September 7th, 2006 18:42 |
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Intresting.
I've always wondered about comas... if someone is gone for like, a year, how would they percive that time? Would they literally, fall/get hit and wake up... a year having past or would it seem longer? Or would it be diffrent regarding the depth of their coma? Brain waves/frequencies etc... Could you have a frequency transmitter/reciver and talk to them?... wake them up? Its all Delta and that type of stuff... I forget the stages. During REM a persons eye lids flitter, are they functioning on a higher frequency then?...
Antother intresting one is the cycle of the planets around the sun... Each cycle = a year, but on the outer planets, whos cycle is longer than the inner ones, 10 years on earth could be 1 to lets say Pluto (still a planet I don't care) kind of the same thing you are looking at 017, the rotations of the planets being divided into 12 diffrent sections, each with their own rotation around the sun as a division regarding time. Kind of anyway. Large planets days are longer blah blah blah...
Guess the speed of thought is the speed of light, as Tehuti says as they're signals sent electronically much like fiber optics. The speed of your reflexes reflects this, whats the time between the thought to move and the action taken... such that its not even a 'thought' its regarded as one, 'action'. Or speech even you don't think to talk and have it said 5 mins later, its instantanious.
Now, if a person can control the vibrations at which they work at they'd be able to resonate fast enough to experience time on diffrent levels. 'Vibrations' being the natural resonance of physical matter. ^ the resonance to a higher frequency and people/objects dencity will make them slower, time itself would be slower... Down that resonance and people/objects will seem faster, your mass now being dence. To get 'spiritual', angels are said to be able to download themselves to work at diffrent frequencies (dimensions) coming from one higher than ourselves they, ''can'' come down to work at our frequency/dimension/time and space. The same would go for interplanetary travel as gravity ie; The dencity of the planet would effect objects/beings on said planet. The more dence the planet the slower time should/would be percived on said planet, effecting the things a person attempts to percive on the planet.
The aryan woman in Contact was taken some place where the frequency was higher and so time was altered, seemingly nothing to us, now being too dence, but hours to her.
If it was lower it would have been nothing to her but days to us, prehaps like abductions on earth are.
So then, is it possible for a mind which is tuned to a sufficiently high frequency to experience a "fraction of a second" as a whole day...or a week...or...??
No.
A person who has upped the frequency of their brain waves and nerve reception (sencitive) should be able to percive things that move on a higher level/vibrate at a faster rate, touch them, hear them, see the light they reflect etc etc.... but to actually experience time at that rate would involve their physical body ?occilating? (sp) at that rate not just their minds as that would involve mass... they'd have to be like, The Flash get crunk and shake themselves to get to that frequency and function there. The only way this would be possible would be in the astral (dreams) where if trained a person can 'leave' their physical body and function at diffrent frequencies, experience time on a diffrent plane. Otherwise the main problem would be how your organs would work on such a level... I mean, how would all that effect the fact we're made of water...?
Last edited on Thursday September 7th, 2006 18:51 by Apedemak
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Jay Jay
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Posted: Thursday September 7th, 2006 20:28 |
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Slighty...
Breadfruit wrote: A person can dream a whole heap of experiences in a few minutes."
Yes, thats because time doesn't exist, there is no such thing, it is purely man-made for taxable purposes, to keep track of people on the cornfield, to get as much "time" out of you as possible.
¬
How many times have people heard of the mathmatician etc.. work for many many years on an equation or a difficult problem, then all of a sudden BAM!!! they've completely sussed it out from beginning to end in next to no time? Was it a moment of clarity? or did they experience a lifetimes worth of work, and found a solution in that instant?
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Thursday September 7th, 2006 20:54 |
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Jay Jay wrote:
Yes, thats because time doesn't exist, there is no such thing, it is purely man-made for taxable purposes, to keep track of people on the cornfield, to get as much "time" out of you as possible.
¬
How many times have people heard of the mathmatician etc.. work for many many years on an equation or a difficult problem, then all of a sudden BAM!!! they've completely sussed it out from beginning to end in next to no time? Was it a moment of clarity? or did they experience a lifetimes worth of work, and found a solution in that instant?
Come on Jay Jay, that is silly talk there. Of course "time" exists. You cannot deny that your body ages or "gets older" at some rate whatever you want to use as your reference.
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Jay Jay
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Posted: Thursday September 7th, 2006 22:15 |
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Now now, I'm not trying to appeal to the rational brain with a watch on the wrist, how many different occasions have you lost track of time? in reality all you have lost is a fractional calculation of.... nothing!!!
Personally, I stated this before in some long ago thread, we all go through cycles and ages, time is just wo/mans smaller calculation of a cycle or an age.
Maybe I can't it explain properly, So I'll share something, about 10-12 years ago I used to commute into central London, everyday I ran the gauntlet of Liverpool St Stn. 1000's of people rushing about trying to get to work quick, "time is money" one day I stopped and just had a look around, all I saw was headless chickens (metaphor) I stopped working in the city shortly afterwards.
6-7 years ago an elderly man came upto to me at work, I told him I was going to be 10-15 minutes if he doesn't mind waiting, he replied "At my age, time means nothing" this had a profound effect on me, because there I was again rushing about for work, So finally when a wise person said to me... time doesn't exist and then went on to elaborate, I just understood what was being said to me.
Again...I'm not the best person at explaining in detail, but you have a vague overview of my thinking.
?
Last edited on Thursday September 7th, 2006 22:39 by Jay Jay
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TheDogon
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Posted: Thursday September 7th, 2006 22:34 |
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Jay Jay wrote: Now now, I'm not trying to appeal to the rational brain with a watch on the wrist, how many different occasions have you lost track of time? in reality all you have lost is a fractional calculation of.... nothing!!!
Personally, I stated this before in some long ago thread, we all go through cycles and ages, time is just wo/mans smaller calculation of a cycle or an age. Example: If you goto another planet, the barometer for which you use to judge time will be wrong.
Maybe I can't it explain properly, So I'll share something, about 10-12 years ago I used to commute into central London, everyday I ran the gauntlet of Liverpool St Stn. 1000's of people rushing about trying to get to work quick, "time is money" one day I stopped and just had a look around, all I saw was headless chickens (metaphor) I stopped working in the city shortly afterwards.
6-7 years ago an elderly man came upto to me at work, I told him I was going to be 10-15 minutes if he doesn't mind waiting, he replied "At my age, time means nothing" this had a profound effect on me. So finally when a wise person said to me... time doesn't exist and then went on to elaborate, I just understood what was being said to me.
Again...I'm not the best person at explaining in detail, but you have a vague overview of my thinking.
?
But you are citing philosophy. Time does exist. But one's perception of it can be changed, like in your case. In fact, I could even argue that you are now even more aware of the passing of time, in that the lessons you have learned tell you how valuable time is. The old man, who said "Time means nothing." Well, isn't he just saying there is no reason to rush to "conserve" it. Time will pass no matter what, so you might as well find joy in your existence and in your life while it does.
But when we talk about the relativistic effects of time, we are talking about how time passes in one frame of reference as opposed to a difference frame. As one poster explained earlier, time passes at a different rate for objects that are in motion, compared to objects that are at rest.
But the thing that stays constant is our perception of time and it's passing. We don't note time moving faster or slower within our own frame of reference, we only note a difference when comparing the rate of it's passing in our frame, with that of another frame.
Again the previous poster, notes that a person a ship moving at a substantial faction of the speed of light would note that time has pass slower for him than for those back here on earth.
One cannot ignore the effects or the limitations of time. There is always past, present, and future. Well, at least in this universe. In other universes, things might be quite a bit different.
Has anyone read up on a version of a Quantum theory of time????
I would like to see it.
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Jay Jay
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Posted: Thursday September 7th, 2006 23:16 |
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Ahhh...You see when I mention the man saying "Time means nothing" and its profound effect on me....I relised I was a person working the cornfield for someone else, he also gave off a there is no rush and things will come to a pass kind of attitude. Different people, see different things. Time does not exist in my view, it is only the use of the word "time" that is throwing people off.
What if past, present and future are one and the same and as such shouldn't be seen as 3 separates?
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The Watcher
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Posted: Thursday September 7th, 2006 23:45 |
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The speed of a thought is almost as fast as the speed of light or electricity. No need to take everyone back to modern physics class here, but the faster objects move, the slower time is with respect to them. Just as if you went in a space ship travelling at light-speeds around the Universe for 1 year and then came back to Earth, time with respect to Earth will have elapsed a 100 years or so more while you would only be 1 year older. Given this in theory, we could deduce that our dreams our merely a series of thoughts, where our thoughts are electrical current pulses through neural networks of the brain and nerves thereby travelling at almost the speed of light. Therefore, we could hypothesize that our dreams can last much longer because an almost infinite number of electrical pulses can propagate through the brain's neural networks within one nights sleep, let alone the theories of relativity.
This was good Shemsi and I agree with you and Breadfruit but for 107s question I don't think we can stretch it that far. No way of knowing I suppose, except that I can't do it yet!
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One Zero Seven
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Posted: Friday September 8th, 2006 00:29 |
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Rebel-Lion wrote: ...Antother intresting one is the cycle of the planets around the sun... Each cycle = a year, but on the outer planets, whos cycle is longer than the inner ones, 10 years on earth could be 1 to lets say Pluto (still a planet I don't care) kind of the same thing you are looking at 017, the rotations of the planets being divided into 12 diffrent sections, each with their own rotation around the sun as a division regarding time. Kind of anyway. Large planets days are longer blah blah blah...
Just a bit of celestial trivia...
One year on Pluto is equal to 345 years on Earth...wow.
RM
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The Watcher
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Posted: Friday September 8th, 2006 01:32 |
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@ Shemsi
Some of the bigger planets have shorter days than those of earth. Though they travel around the sun longer than earth does (being further out) they spin about on their own axis much faster than earth does. A Jovian day is only like 10 of our hours. A Jovian year might be 20 of ours. This has little to do with their distance but more to do with their composition. Pluto (not a planet damnit) is further out than these big planets but has a LONGER day.
This to me has little to do with relativity (in terms of this thread) though because we give the NAME "year" to something very arbitary. Talking about special relativity and general relativity are different concepts to the time it takes to go round a common point.
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TheDogon
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Posted: Friday September 8th, 2006 16:48 |
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Jay Jay wrote:
Ahhh...You see when I mention the man saying "Time means nothing" and its profound effect on me....I relised I was a person working the cornfield for someone else, he also gave off a there is no rush and things will come to a pass kind of attitude. Different people, see different things. Time does not exist in my view, it is only the use of the word "time" that is throwing people off.
What if past, present and future are one and the same and as such shouldn't be seen as 3 separates?
Let me explain it in this way. Perhaps this will be clearer. If you were a two-dimensional person, that would not negate the possibility of a third dimension. You just wouldn't be able to sense it. Yepper, I am pretty sure that a being in the 5th dimension can look down on us and see us born, live, and die in one frame of reference. They would see our entire "world-line" because their perspective permits it. It doesn't make sense to us, but I would just bet this particular being has no sense of "time". If something is. . .it always is. There never is a point or period, where it isn't.
That's not possible in our universe. Things are always in a state of flux. Time is what we use to measure that flux. No matter what happens, no system will simply exist forever. Now you can call that what you will. Maybe you want to use a different term than time. That's fine. But t
ime is one of the limitations of our existence. It is a rule written into the fabric of our existence in this universe. Just like the rule that says you cannot move faster than the speed of light in a given frame.
In that other dimension, I am quite sure that time does not exist. There is no need for it. A Being in that dimension wouldn't need to measure periods between different states of flux. A Being in that dimension wouldn't change. They would not even experience flux. He/She would simply be, because they have always "been".
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Apedemak
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Posted: Friday September 8th, 2006 17:41 |
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@ Shemsi
Some of the bigger planets have shorter days than those of earth. Though they travel around the sun longer than earth does (being further out) they spin about on their own axis much faster than earth does. A Jovian day is only like 10 of our hours. A Jovian year might be 20 of ours. This has little to do with their distance but more to do with their composition. Pluto (not a planet damnit) is further out than these big planets but has a LONGER day.
This to me has little to do with relativity (in terms of this thread) though because we give the NAME "year" to something very arbitary. Talking about special relativity and general relativity are different concepts to the time it takes to go round a common point.
Intresting... Didn't think of that.
The only place there is no time is in space Jay Jay, otherwise we're on a planet which is rotating on its axis and around the sun = time.
How many times have people heard of the mathmatician etc.. work for many many years on an equation or a difficult problem, then all of a sudden BAM!!! they've completely sussed it out from beginning to end in next to no time? Was it a moment of clarity? or did they experience a lifetimes worth of work, and found a solution in that instant?
Inspiration.
The unlocking of one door opens the doors to many... It all opens up and makes sence. Their mental block now being lifted they can, 'flow' (?Chi/Qi?) into solving the problem finding the rhythm needed to solve the equation... its the same with artists, they can suffer a block and suddenly find inspiration and be in the moment, painting, song writing or what have you... I can see where you're coming from, its like drawing and losing oneself in time completely in the moment, in the zone as they call it, in that case maybe that persons brain waves are functioning at another frequency (?lower?) real time being percived as moving faster and almost being non exsistant as the subject becomes lost in the moment being creative in thought. Hours passing in a percived instance.
Best example would be in an accident or when something bad happens and time seems to slow down completely as the incident plays out but to the observer, not involved, it would just happen suddenly.
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Friday September 8th, 2006 17:53 |
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Jay Jay wrote: Now now, I'm not trying to appeal to the rational brain with a watch on the wrist, how many different occasions have you lost track of time? in reality all you have lost is a fractional calculation of.... nothing!!!
Personally, I stated this before in some long ago thread, we all go through cycles and ages, time is just wo/mans smaller calculation of a cycle or an age.
Maybe I can't it explain properly, So I'll share something, about 10-12 years ago I used to commute into central London, everyday I ran the gauntlet of Liverpool St Stn. 1000's of people rushing about trying to get to work quick, "time is money" one day I stopped and just had a look around, all I saw was headless chickens (metaphor) I stopped working in the city shortly afterwards.
6-7 years ago an elderly man came upto to me at work, I told him I was going to be 10-15 minutes if he doesn't mind waiting, he replied "At my age, time means nothing" this had a profound effect on me, because there I was again rushing about for work, So finally when a wise person said to me... time doesn't exist and then went on to elaborate, I just understood what was being said to me.
Again...I'm not the best person at explaining in detail, but you have a vague overview of my thinking.
?
I think you have just demonstrated that time does in fact exist, it only depends on your reference. Since we are younger and trying to make a life for ourselves, our reference is actually the socially constructed society we live in (besides the Sun). For an old man, that doesn't matter anymore because he has lived his life. Therefore, the same reference of time you use is of no use to an old man.
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HLF
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Posted: Friday September 8th, 2006 18:02 |
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| From Jay's post, it seems to me that from the man perspective of time meaning nothing, he could have very well been operating outside the confines and constraints of time. There are a lot of people that are slaves to time, especially in the western (the left brain hemispherically dominated) world. I think I do understand the underlying meaning of the sayings "time means nothing" and "time does not exist", more so on the intuitive non-verbal level. I think it does have to do with operating outside of what people percieve as time. Time had no tangible value for him (which makes me think of the saying "time is money, money is time"), so from a higher perceptionary sense he was/is less attached and dependent upon time. So although time exists, it might not exist in the sense that it would constrain his mind and how he operates.
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TheDogon
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Posted: Monday September 11th, 2006 16:57 |
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HLF wrote: From Jay's post, it seems to me that from the man perspective of time meaning nothing, he could have very well been operating outside the confines and constraints of time. There are a lot of people that are slaves to time, especially in the western (the left brain hemispherically dominated) world. I think I do understand the underlying meaning of the sayings "time means nothing" and "time does not exist", more so on the intuitive non-verbal level. I think it does have to do with operating outside of what people percieve as time. Time had no tangible value for him (which makes me think of the saying "time is money, money is time"), so from a higher perceptionary sense he was/is less attached and dependent upon time. So although time exists, it might not exist in the sense that it would constrain his mind and how he operates.
But that's a philosophy. I am not talking about time in the way most people perceive it. I am talking about time as a measurement between different states of existence.
We measure changes in our environment by counting the number of cycles between different states of flux.
But we shouldn't confuse the two. I think there is much value in talking about the possibility of an existence without time. I think it frees our minds to talk about the possibility of alternate universes and the existence of other dimensions.
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Jay Jay
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Posted: Monday September 11th, 2006 17:03 |
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Rebel-Lion wrote:
The only place there is no time is in space Jay Jay, otherwise we're on a planet which is rotating on its axis and around the sun = time.
Cycle
How many times have people heard of the mathmatician etc.. work for many many years on an equation or a difficult problem, then all of a sudden BAM!!! they've completely sussed it out from beginning to end in next to no time? Was it a moment of clarity? or did they experience a lifetimes worth of work, and found a solution in that instant?
Inspiration.
The unlocking of one door opens the doors to many... It all opens up and makes sence. Their mental block now being lifted they can, 'flow' (?Chi/Qi?) into solving the problem finding the rhythm needed to solve the equation... its the same with artists, they can suffer a block and suddenly find inspiration and be in the moment, painting, song writing or what have you... I can see where you're coming from, its like drawing and losing oneself in time completely in the moment, in the zone as they call it, in that case maybe that persons brain waves are functioning at another frequency (?lower?) real time being percived as moving faster and almost being non exsistant as the subject becomes lost in the moment being creative in thought. Hours passing in a percived instance.
Best example would be in an accident or when something bad happens and time seems to slow down completely as the incident plays out but to the observer, not involved, it would just happen suddenly.
Inspiration doesn't explain how things actually happened does it? inspriration only explains that something has actually happened. "in the zone" is a better reference.
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Jay Jay
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Posted: Monday September 11th, 2006 17:30 |
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TheDogon wrote: HLF wrote: From Jay's post, it seems to me that from the man perspective of time meaning nothing, he could have very well been operating outside the confines and constraints of time. There are a lot of people that are slaves to time, especially in the western (the left brain hemispherically dominated) world. I think I do understand the underlying meaning of the sayings "time means nothing" and "time does not exist", more so on the intuitive non-verbal level. I think it does have to do with operating outside of what people percieve as time. Time had no tangible value for him (which makes me think of the saying "time is money, money is time"), so from a higher perceptionary sense he was/is less attached and dependent upon time. So although time exists, it might not exist in the sense that it would constrain his mind and how he operates.
But that's a philosophy. I am not talking about time in the way most people perceive it. I am talking about time as a measurement between different states of existence.
We measure changes in our environment by counting the number of cycles between different states of flux.
But we shouldn't confuse the two. I think there is much value in talking about the possibility of an existence without time. I think it frees our minds to talk about the possibility of alternate universes and the existence of other dimensions.
Tehuti's Korner, The Philosophy Village, HLF's comment about my thinking has nailed it on the head. I agree with the measuring of changes by counting the cycles, this is universal, how we measure so called "time" here is not.
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TheDogon
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Posted: Monday September 11th, 2006 18:56 |
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Jay Jay wrote: TheDogon wrote: HLF wrote: From Jay's post, it seems to me that from the man perspective of time meaning nothing, he could have very well been operating outside the confines and constraints of time. There are a lot of people that are slaves to time, especially in the western (the left brain hemispherically dominated) world. I think I do understand the underlying meaning of the sayings "time means nothing" and "time does not exist", more so on the intuitive non-verbal level. I think it does have to do with operating outside of what people percieve as time. Time had no tangible value for him (which makes me think of the saying "time is money, money is time"), so from a higher perceptionary sense he was/is less attached and dependent upon time. So although time exists, it might not exist in the sense that it would constrain his mind and how he operates.
But that's a philosophy. I am not talking about time in the way most people perceive it. I am talking about time as a measurement between different states of existence.
We measure changes in our environment by counting the number of cycles between different states of flux.
But we shouldn't confuse the two. I think there is much value in talking about the possibility of an existence without time. I think it frees our minds to talk about the possibility of alternate universes and the existence of other dimensions.
Tehuti's Korner, The Philosophy Village, HLF's comment about my thinking has nailed it on the head. I agree with the measuring of changes by counting the cycles, this is universal, how we measure so called "time" here is not.
Understood. But we should be clear on the difference. There is a lot of interesting theories on time, space, etc.
One would be that time does not exist outside of this universe. The universe expands into empty space. . .well. . .at least that is what we think for now.
Is it possible that in that empty space, things are possible there that are not possible within the universe itself?
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Jay Jay
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