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Saida.M
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Posted: Tuesday July 11th, 2006 15:03 |
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Some say it's so.
Was our history pre-planned? Is it taking us somewhere?
What are your thoughts?
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Apedemak
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Posted: Tuesday July 11th, 2006 16:10 |
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Is time a lake or a pool of water?
I think we have destinations, things to do and a limit on it all... once you've done what you've got to do or run out of that limit you pass onto the next world where you go about achiving goals there.
Romantic eh? ( )
I don't belive in coincidences and in not beliving in them I belive that things were meant to be, hence we all have a path to follow and an ultimate destination.
Awaits comments on free will... beware the CNC!
(Chinese nerve chop)
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FredB
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Posted: Tuesday July 11th, 2006 18:25 |
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@Saida yes our destiny is predetermined to a large degree in accordance with broader metaphysical rules and plans and we are influenced by a range of important forces or energies. Be they the time we were born, or characteristics etc. But we have a choice in how we make decisions.
All souls are here for a particular experience which they can only receive by the challenges and obstacles that specific individual faces. Conciousness is the process by which people discover their purpose and you know that when all these forces come together and things either happen or become very very easily.
Sometimes sh*t can happen to you as recently happened to a bredrin of mine and you can say how can a man who is so careful and concious can suffer several identical problems. How can a man be so careful and unlucky at the same time.
But sometimes the higher powers are communicating to you that you need to take another course and once you do everything suddenly becomes easier because that is your path and one which is predetermine and those blows he took are simply important experiences which he must experience to increase his conciousness in order to learn and pass that on in the process of finding his path.
That is why people like me consult my traditonal spirtual medium on a regular basis because they know what your path and can help you to untangle the complexities of the physycial world so you can work with the force and not against it and work yourself up more and get dejected and frustrated.
FB
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soulunique
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Posted: Tuesday July 11th, 2006 19:22 |
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I truly believe in destiny and that we all have a path. but sometimes it can be difficult to stay on the path and to believe that such a path exsists particularly when things happen to us. But these things are lessons that one must learn to appreciate where one ends up.
I often have to return to my spirituality to lift me up when i want to give up on where it is i feel i am destined to go. some people's paths are straight but others like myself have alot of things that happen along the way but its my faith in the upmost high that keeps me going.
before i go off on one i just read this in the book the alchemist:
'destiny is what you have always wanted to accomplish. everyone when they are young knows what their destiny is. at that point in their lives everything is clear and everything is possible. they are not afraid to dream and yearn. but as time passes a mysterious force begins to convince them it will be impossible for them to realize their destiny'
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The Watcher
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Posted: Tuesday July 11th, 2006 19:59 |
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Nah, you're here cos your parents met by chance and had sex. Thats it.
You're born, and you die and you pay taxes in the middle. That much is destiny. The rest you make up as you go along.
If everything had a reason humans wouldn't be so obsessed with constantly asking "why?" about everything. There is no why. sh*t happens... people don't like that though so all the extras come in to make us feel nicer and important. BAH!
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soulunique
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Posted: Tuesday July 11th, 2006 20:07 |
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@ DM: to say that there is no destiny to me means that you just wake up each day do the same old sh*t and then carry it on the next day.
having destiny and actively following it is to me what life is about therefore everything does happen for a reason. why would the most high god create us to leave us to roam on this so called earth?
although sometimes people say that everything happens for a reason becuas ethey dont know what to say when stuff does happen.
maybe ur right maybe its keeping me going thinking that things happen for a reason but then again at least i haev something to aim for
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The Watcher
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Posted: Tuesday July 11th, 2006 20:59 |
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soulunique wrote: @ DM: to say that there is no destiny to me means that you just wake up each day do the same old sh*t and then carry it on the next day.
umm no you have it backwards
Saying there is no destiny means I get up each day with the free will to decide what I do and what happens.
Saying what I did retrrospectively in hindsight was destiny is lazy and takes away from the decisions I as an individual make. If everything is destiny I might as well not bother making any choices or doing anything decisive since what will be will be.
Percieve the world in that way if you will, that of the helpless bystander to the machinations of big forces. Myself I'm a key player and doer in my own life.
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The Watcher
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Posted: Tuesday July 11th, 2006 21:00 |
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soulunique wrote: @ DM: to say that there is no destiny to me means that you just wake up each day do the same old sh*t and then carry it on the next day.
umm no you have it backwards
Saying there is no destiny means I get up each day with the free will to decide what I do and what happens.
Saying what I did retrrospectively in hindsight was destiny is lazy and takes away from the decisions I as an individual make. If everything is destiny I might as well not bother making any choices or doing anything decisive since what will be will be.
Percieve the world in that way if you will, that of the helpless bystander to the machinations of big forces. Myself I'm a key player and doer in my own life.
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Prince Hakeem
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Posted: Tuesday July 11th, 2006 21:21 |
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I used to wonder stuff like why was I born 197_ instead of another time period, but that's just how it is.
I also don't believe EVERYTHING happens for a reason, cos that's just nonsense. For instance, I didn't fall off my bike and break my arm when I was nine for any specific purpose.
Most things happen for no reason at all or just through man's actions. The belief in predestination to me is just a foolish concept that can cause psychological and emotional turmoil to those who are less fortunate in life due to poverty, illness etc.
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FredB
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Posted: Tuesday July 11th, 2006 21:28 |
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@DM bro you have repeated the western rationalism down the line which is fundamentally flawed and also a reflection of the immaturity of western civilisaton and culture. Older and objectively more advanced cultures all over the world take the view that you make individual choices within a more complex framework. Great African leaders in history who changed the course of world history by their individual decisions also were concerned with the spiritual and metaphysical. That is why we produced the mosta advance societies known to humankind.
It is not one or the other and why many white western scholars have spent so long writing about spritual power, the soul and all that type thing because the complexity of life cannot simply be put down to man's will. Man did not will himself into existence.
Man did not create himself and his universe which has a fundamental logic and overall design. All animals and physical life actually complement each other in one of the greatest pieces of human engineering which showls clearly some overriding and guiding higher intelligence. The relationship of man to plants trees, animals, the natural world, the physcial and other world is so complementary that is must be produced by a higher intelligence, which has a fundamental purpose in that design.
I was passionate in becoming a medical doctor because anyone who seriously studies the human body will be absolutely amazed in how it is designed, every part of it carefully contructed and complementary. Every sub system of the body works so intricately in complmenting other subsystem, simply reproducing the way the natural and cosmic world operates.
So whether you or I like it, we were designed by higher intelligence and that intelligence and conciousness had a purpose in that design. We have not come about randomly or by accident. The human body has not evolved. It was perfect from inception and by design as are all the systems which make up reality.
FB
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The Watcher
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Posted: Tuesday July 11th, 2006 21:46 |
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FredB wrote: @DM bro you have repeated the western rationalism down the line which is fundamentally flawed and also a reflection of the immaturity of western civilisaton and culture. Older and objectively more advanced cultures all over the world take the view that you make individual choices within a more complex framework. Great African leaders in history who changed the course of world history by their individual decisions also were concerned with the spiritual and metaphysical. That is why we produced the mosta advance societies known to humankind.
It is not one or the other and why many white western scholars have spent so long writing about spritual power, the soul and all that type thing because the complexity of life cannot simply be put down to man's will. Man did not will himself into existence.
Man did not create himself and his universe which has a fundamental logic and overall design. All animals and physical life actually complement each other in one of the greatest pieces of human engineering which showls clearly some overriding and guiding higher intelligence. The relationship of man to plants trees, animals, the natural world, the physcial and other world is so complementary that is must be produced by a higher intelligence, which has a fundamental purpose in that design.
I was passionate in becoming a medical doctor because anyone who seriously studies the human body will be absolutely amazed in how it is designed, every part of it carefully contructed and complementary. Every sub system of the body works so intricately in complmenting other subsystem, simply reproducing the way the natural and cosmic world operates.
So whether you or I like it, we were designed by higher intelligence and that intelligence and conciousness had a purpose in that design. We have not come about randomly or by accident. The human body has not evolved. It was perfect from inception and by design as are all the systems which make up reality.
FB
Sorry Fred but you've used rhetoric to say how my perspective is "western" and "flawed" and your viewpoint is "ancient" and I suppose somehow wise? You haven't really addressed why.
Not everything has a meaning Fred. Why did I just scratch my nose? Was it destiny? Did some force thousands of years ago decree that on this day Drunk monkey's nose would so itch? I don't think so.
Stuff happens, you control how you react to that stuff. Believing in manifest destiny comes of an arrogance. That very human arrogance which says that we are the centre of everything and all important. There isn't a reason for things. We just want to believe there is so that we feel as if we're in control or on top of things we aren't. Like death for example. You want to believe your loved ones death had significance or manifest meaning. It didn't. They died because they were mortal like you. YOU now control wether that persons existance had meaning in how you choose to celebrate or remember them.
What would Elvis be without Priscilla making him into a legend he wasn't? She as much as him is responsible for white people worshipping that man. She could have rolled over and dissapeared and let his memory slowly fade. No destiny. Her choice.
It's narcissim of a sort. You or I are not that important in the grand scheme of things. Nobody paved your path Fred, you did it yourself. Or it's a refusal to accept your mortal responsiblity for the consequences of your actions. By passing the responsibility onto unexplained forces or destiny for what happens to you... it's not your fault.
It's not your fault you're a homeless drunk bum... it's destiny! I'm not buying it. It's your fault your a drunk... ya dig?
Human free will over bogeymen making your choices anyday.
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newstyle
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Posted: Wednesday July 12th, 2006 01:17 |
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I don't believe everything happens for a reason, but I don't believe we have full control of our lives, in that everything that happens to you is down to your choices. I think the element of "luck" is undervalued, totally random that is able to make ones's choice a good one or not. I believe in an element randomness rather then fate.
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FredB
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Posted: Wednesday July 12th, 2006 02:18 |
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@DM I addressed one issue because that is all I wanted or had time to deal with. But you scratching your nose is your voluntary choice and with respect degrading your own argument because you have been given that power. Who said all events in life are predtermined or have significance. What are all actions of equal consequence in any place in time or space. I don't think so.
Again western rationalism. But I will be back as I only realised blacknet screen was on when I was turning my machine off for bed.
By the way bro..Not rhetoric but scientific truth. All life form is formed by a universal intelligence. Study the human body and tell me that is simply random accident that it could be designed so perfectly rationally and whatever you like. In fact there is very few things which exist which is so perfect in its design. That is not rhetoric bro, that is science. That means something bigger than human beings designed human beings. Don't take much to work that out.
Have you ever wondered why so many of the great western scientist then and now are deeply religious and why? Science and religon has always been insperable, because you cannot explain one without the other eg a force beyond our immediate experience but influencing our immediate experience.
By the way what has this manifest destiny got to do with anything? You are clearly arguing against something that you do not understand DM. Nobody has a manifest destiny so you can sit on your arse and what? No brother you may be arrogant to say I do not have a path because you cannot speak for me and I definitely do have a path and am living it.
I have always been clear of it and the incidents and things that happen in life and people you meet wherever, keep on reinforcing or reacting to you in a particular way, you may realise you have a special talent, long before you ever meet people with special skills or qualities who confirm it. Everybody has very special qualities which prepares them for special roles, but some know it, because they have that conciousness and others do not. Hence the ancient maxim 'man no thyself' because all realisation of power, selfknowledge and knowledge of the world lies in self conciousness.
Peace.
Last edited on Wednesday July 12th, 2006 03:23 by FredB
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The Watcher
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Posted: Wednesday July 12th, 2006 02:49 |
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Outside my control? Most things are Fred. If I box a man in his face for the hell of it that wasn't in his control but it doesn't make it destiny. Doesn't mean there was some grand design in his black eye or some supernatural reason... Just means I'm nuts!
A future child of mine named bob in years to come could ask "why am I here?, there must be a reason. It's destiny surely?" But its not. I sexed his mum and that's that. Either he is there or he isn't. If she took a choice to start a smoking habit age 14 before I met her and by the time she reaches now she has yellow teeth and smelly breath well then I wouldn't sex her therefore no bob! If she kept herself fresh and managed to meet me... well there's a chance for bob but no certainty and definately no plan in it.
Bob, you're here cos your mum wore a short dress and high heels at the club that night instead of the jeans she was thinking of wearing. Bob you're here cos the rubber burst. Bob you're here because we tried for 10 years to have you and we had IVF... etc etc
No destiny, no mystery. Stuff happens. Thats it!
Oh and Scientist being religious is neither here nor there, it's a human choice to believe in whatever fairies and pixies you will, or not. What is that supposed to prove?
Oh and I have studied the body, in detail. That arguement of irreducible complexity was redundant two centuries ago! Arguing that because something is complex it must have been designed leads you into an unending loop of no answers. Who designed the ever more complex designer? Not only that but it's not even applicable. Take the oft given example of the digital watch. People using your logic argued that the body is like a watch, such a thing couldn't ever develop with chance over time. But the watch DID indeed develop over time. The Egyptians never sat down and built a digital watch. They used water devices and the suns shadows like the Chinese and others. The Swiss didn't develop cuckoo clocks out of the blue on a piece of paper. Many concepts and ideas had to come first, one leading to another slowly. The digital watch required not only electronics but miniturisation and transistors. LOL You can't simply design one out of thin air without all these concepts going back 1000s of years. No sit down design. An organic development of previous things...
analogous to the body and it's development through time.
BTW what makes you think this weakened, disease prone, temperature nervous body is anything special? You talk as if humans were a finished machine of perfection... we're not. We're not finished. We're still changing.
There are animals stronger, quicker, bigger, able to withstand far greater temperature ranges, longer living and longer lasting. We've only been here an eyeblink of the time earth has, man is 200,000 years old give or take while the dinosaurs reined for millions of years. Who says sentience is anything special in the planets eyes? Who says it's destiny? A rock could come wipe out everything on the planet tomorow leaving not a trace of us and would that be destiny? Bacteria have been here from the beginning and they truly run things on earth. Why aren't they the ones babbling about destiny? Perhaps the cochroaches should believe in their destiny to rule after we've gone?
Random stuff happens imo.
A human has free choice, you make your own way in your limited circumstances. I can't make myself President of the USA having not been born there but I can control wether I'm a drug dealer or a straight square. I can't control if the train will blow up today or not but I can control wether I was on it. There is no destiny. There is only complex interactions of many free willed people, societies constrainsts and the "randomness" of natural events.
Last edited on Wednesday July 12th, 2006 03:08 by The Watcher
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FredB
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Posted: Wednesday July 12th, 2006 03:08 |
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DM trying to go to bed here. A point I missed out. No not because it is ancient it is correct,but because the empirical evidence if irrefutable. The most advanced knowledge systems we have come from ancient societies who built the most advanced societies we have and lasted longer than anything we know today. That is called empiricism eg observable and repeatable facts.
You said you study martial arts but you are not studying it seriously enough. Study the metaphysical and other sciences which support really advanced martial arts. Matters concerning Chi and how this relates to a whole range of other higher explanations. Developed over thousands of years and empirically proven. The use of spritual and other conciousness as part of that training and development. All part of that broader proven metaphysics.
By the way I was not taking about the irreducible complexity theory, but about design theory and instrumentality if you actually want to be correct. I was talking about the fundamental and unifying design logic and workings of the body and its sub systems not its irreducible complexity.
By the way you may have sexed the woman to produce a child but it does not mean the egg will fertilise or when or the circumstances of the process or whatever characteristics that child may have while in the womb. The child may look like you but be nothing like you.
By the way of course random stuff happens in the natural world but that is not its primary organising or structuring principles. In other words the majority of things which happen on earth or the animal or plant world or cosmos are not random, but highly organised, structured and operate by rules and laws which are interelated. Hence the concept of higher organising intelligence. The stars and planets just down hang in the sky sporadically brother. Study the function of Srius A and B and B minor.
Peace.
Last edited on Wednesday July 12th, 2006 03:16 by FredB
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The Watcher
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Posted: Wednesday July 12th, 2006 03:43 |
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The whole idea of destiny has an evilness to it. People use it to explain tragedy or drama and for some reason it gives people comfort?
Consider, a boy of 4 walks out into a car and dies, a gunman shoots a baby, a child is born in a famine zone and dies in two weeks of it's birth, a woman is raped. Destiny? I've heard people use the phrase to make such things palatable but think Fred. There is a design in the stars, it was written, God decided to kill babies? The woman was raped for some purpose of FATE? Was the rapist then fufilling destiny and obeying a purpose? I'm not being emotional for the sake of it here, I'm countering the emotionalism used to justify these very things.
People struggle to make sense of the world.
If I was sitting in a void just me in a void I am limited by what I can do by what I can interact with. Put me in a landscape now and I am limited by the water around me, the type of land and the climate. But where I wander is up to me and what I decide to do with myself is also up to me. Free will and limitation together you see. Now is the problem. Put another person into this landscape and not only am I limited by my surroundings but by the decisions this person can make too. By his free will. I may want to drink but find he has taken all the water for example. Easy to understand so far right? Two people, two independant wills unknown to each other and one static landscape. Not much to confuse a soul. Nobody would talk about destiny and fate in my not being able to drink here.
But we don't live like that. We live with millions ontop of millions all with wills of their own doing as they will and influencing your options as an individual. We live in changing landscapes with events that have so many variations it's hard to keep track of. This doesn't make it magical. Just that the scope of the variables is too much to take in. So we put it down to destiny and fate. Lazyness! Ultimately despite the others and the situation, it's still your choice to do as you will.
What you call the sub systems of the body is what I already covered. You look at it now and see complexity in all the various interacting parts and systems as if they got that way by some design. I explained with the clock. I don't! To build a digital clock you need to have a concept of time, levers, motors, gears, pulleys, gravity, friction, winding mechanisms then electronics, magnetism, crystal structure, semiconductors etc etc. You don't just build a clock out of the blue like picking up mud and breathing into Adam. Everything including the body is built on the development of something else, sometimes more basic with additions, sometimes more complex with bits discarded. You don't just develop an eye out of nowhere. There are ever more basic eyes and some more complex. Eyes than are little more than cells which shrink in response to light. Eyes on stalks, eyes that don't see in colour, eyes which can zoom in from miles away. Animals which had eyes but discarded them (moles) and those which are actively evolving them now.
You look at science and see mysteries of cosmos and destiny. I see principles and laws waiting to be understood and stripped of mysticism. With that gone we get back to the fundamental common theme. Choice! It only takes time 
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Le Moor
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Posted: Wednesday July 12th, 2006 05:09 |
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IMO, put simply
Your birth and your death is mapped out.
Therefore the rest inbetween has to be the pathway your destiny takes, governed through choice.
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The Watcher
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Posted: Wednesday July 12th, 2006 07:06 |
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Le Moor wrote: IMO, put simply
Your birth and your death is mapped out.
Clarify, do you believe there is a appointed time for you to die that has already been dictated or just that death itself is an inevitable consequence of life?
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soulunique
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Posted: Wednesday July 12th, 2006 08:10 |
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i believe in free will up to a point but then i feel that we have a destiny and along the way we have to make choices which will determine whether or not we sail smoothly to the next stage or if we make the 'wrong' decision then it will lead us to another path becuase obviously there is still a lesson we need to learn about ourselves or the world befoire we can fully appreciate the next stage.
a child being born and two weeks later?- people's destiny to me does not mean that you will live long sometimes our destiny i feel is to prepare the way for another.
take Malcom x's father who worked for Garvey etc and then he was killed. Malcom almost forgot what his dad stood for and went down the path that he did. to me he had to go to jail to remember what his parents had stood for and why his dad was killed and to bring him back to his base and by going to jail and having experienced what he did was able to maybe reach that one black person that may not have been convinced say Malcom had not had the past that he did have.
he then went down a thought he thought was correct the white man is evil etc but then when he went to mecca he actually saw that the nation of islam is very different to islam practiced elsewhere in the world.
you see to me his destiny was to fight for black people but also to learn things along the way and if you learn it successfully you move to the next stage and if not then you go through what you have to gop through to appreciate when you get there.
His destiny was to die at the time that he did and even choices that he made out of so called free will could not deter him from actually doing what the creator had in mind for him.
thats my bit.
Soul Unique
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culturally aware, spiritually grounded and beautifully unique
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The Watcher
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Posted: Wednesday July 12th, 2006 11:32 |
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Soul Unique
That's so easy to say IN HINDSIGHT! Easy to look at an important event after the fact and say that everyting that led up to it was destiny. Thats picking and choosing your scenarios. What of all the other garveyites who were lynched and killed? Did the guy who sold Malcom bread in the shop have a part in this destiny?
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soulunique
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Posted: Wednesday July 12th, 2006 11:51 |
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@DM: if you look at every little thing say scratching nose, selling him bread then i can see where you are coing from.
but i guess i like to look at the bigger picture and place myself within it whereas others like to look at the little parts. its almost like children when they constantly ask you why this and why that and they can only focus on the liitle things because they are not yet capable of contemplating the bigger pciture- something to do with cognitive development.
and i guess we all reach certain stages of cognitive intellect at different stages. i can not only see the parts but also the whole.
oh yeah maybe he had a very interesting conversation with the man that sold him bread.
peace my brotha
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The Watcher
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Posted: Wednesday July 12th, 2006 12:02 |
