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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Wednesday June 14th, 2006 19:24 |
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*** I put this in the Philosophy Forum because I don't want any Qur'an blather or Bible babble here. I would like to have a discussion about the existence of God, where we actually think about it logically instead of being reactionary to a particular preconceived faith. ***
Now to the question...Does It Make Sense For A Personal God to Exist?
My philosophical argument ultimately concludes, NO.
When I say "personal God", I am talking about a God that does the following:
- "Answers prayers"
- "Performs miracles"
- Influences nature such as causing earthquakes, hurricanes, tsunamis, and so forth for some divine purpose or lesson.
- Bends the will of people to make a theological point like 9/11, Iraq & Afghan Wars, Jewish Holocaust, and so forth.
- Inserts tragic defects into human endeavors to humble man like the Titanic, space shuttle crashes (Columbia), train derailings, plane crashes, and so forth.
- Administer "blessings" and "consequences" during our lifetime for our behavior.
- Revealing messages or any kind of intimate interaction with specific people or groups of mankind.
Let's make some crude realizations about what "God" is. God is supposed to be all-powerful, all-knowing, and the epitome of righteousness. How can an entity deemed as "God" bless the most crooked people to ever live, yet allow the most righteous to suffer? There are countless real-world examples present and throughout history.
Why would God punish innocent Americans with 9/11 (as some have said), yet turn a blind eye to other crookedness in the world. Surely God would be able to punish all inequities, but God does not. If we even try to rationalize why God would pick and choose these things, we only make ourselves out to sound extremely stupid...quite frankly because it is incredibly stupid for a God to do that.
Therefore, we must remove one of the properties for "God", where either God isn't all-powerful, isn't all-knowing, or isn't the epitome of righteousness. You can pick one, but I don't think God would be God if he wasn't all-powerful or all-knowing...which means God can simply not be righteous. This notion seems a bit wierd, and is the idea of God that the Mesopotamians came up with. I have to say that an unrighteous God only confers to many other questions, which suggests this simply cannot be the case either.
So what are we left with other than that God must be a non-personal all-powerful & all-knowing being? This is where I am at with the question of the thread.
Does It Make Sense For A Personal God to Exist? Please give your justifications for which ever is your conclusion...
Last edited on Wednesday June 14th, 2006 20:27 by Shemsi en Tehuti
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defyfear
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Posted: Thursday June 15th, 2006 23:02 |
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Just playing around with this topic...
You cant worship a personal God if your dead so while alive we can certainly beleive a personal God will and does answer our trouble needs for all whether deemed good or bad.
Self preservation in calamity leading to survival is a strong testimony of the existance of personal God.
People claiming to survive near-death experiences gives the impression that their God personal lead them back to the living.
...
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HLF
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Posted: Thursday August 3rd, 2006 20:48 |
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Shemsi en Tehuti wrote:
Let's make some crude realizations about what "God" is. God is supposed to be all-powerful, all-knowing, and the epitome of righteousness. How can an entity deemed as "God" bless the most crooked people to ever live, yet allow the most righteous to suffer? There are countless real-world examples present and throughout history.
Why would God punish innocent Americans with 9/11 (as some have said), yet turn a blind eye to other crookedness in the world. Surely God would be able to punish all inequities, but God does not. If we even try to rationalize why God would pick and choose these things, we only make ourselves out to sound extremely stupid...quite frankly because it is incredibly stupid for a God to do that.
All this occurs because they serve a false and idol god, or not the One God, none at all. There is only one God as the Source of all spirit, it is only a matter of finding the right name. Why would the Supreme God work for any people that don't acknowledge Him by correct name? That is what is personal about it, regardless if everyone seeks Him, worships Him, obeys Him, He Will Be What He Will Be, His existence does not rely on our existence. We have been very impersonal towards Him, not only that, we have served fake Gods which is cutting Him out of His true role. A Father that sustains His son's life in many different ways, yet the son chooses not to acknowledge the Father and bluntly disrespects the Father? What Father wouldn't want to tap that butt with a belt of chastisement? A personal god is worthless unless it is the One True God and even He suppose to not one person's private God not to be shared in acknowledgement of truth.
Crooked people with "purchased souls" that get lots of material gain, they are deemed blessed? Money really isn't worth the paper it is printed on. People who worship materialism are cursed. The lowest frequency the mind can operate on is strictly the carnal (physical) level. If people are willing to sell themselves symbolically for pleasure through all forms of instant gratification, who is really making out like a fat rat for getting something pricessless for something so worthless? Seeing with two eyes minus the third is equal to not really seeing at all. No left eye for understanding, no right eye for insight and surely not the third for spiritual truth.
What really makes a righteous person righteous is the foundation of knowledge, placed into action. Being a "good soul" that knows nothing in terms of the knowledge of the higher planes will make one open to a lot of suffering, that only allows the wicked to rule over us. I experienced that firsthand and wondered, "why?" until the answer I sought for the question revealed itself. Wickedness had its fun ruling over me, but now that I know and more people know, the tides are turning.
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Influential
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Posted: Thursday August 3rd, 2006 23:27 |
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| Each believers relationship with God is unique, thus making them believe in a personal God, because there are no two relationships between God and a person the same.. So yes, there is such things as a personal God.
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Friday August 4th, 2006 11:10 |
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HLF wrote: All this occurs because they serve a false and idol god, or not the One God, none at all. There is only one God as the Source of all spirit, it is only a matter of finding the right name. Why would the Supreme God work for any people that don't acknowledge Him by correct name?
If God is omnipotent, omniscient, "the Source of all", etc., then what makes you think this Supreme Entity even has a name that you could comprehend? Furthermore, for you to ascertain the name from God somehow, then that would mean God had to choose someone to reveal this divine information to. This then perpetuates the issue of the thread. The notion is far from rational, and certainly illogical.
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Friday August 4th, 2006 11:12 |
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Influential wrote: Each believers relationship with God is unique, thus making them believe in a personal God, because there are no two relationships between God and a person the same.. So yes, there is such things as a personal God.
Does not a "relationship" connote a 2-way street? So you think God talks to each individual person? How so?...or perhaps give a couple examples.
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saywone1
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Posted: Friday August 4th, 2006 22:55 |
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Personally I do believe that having a personal god is benificial to each person but I do not think that the god we all commonly come to know and worship is not what we should be praising and answering to. Without drifting off the question the personal 'god' I think we all have is a the power we have as human beings to lets say 'make things happen'. This is an ability I think we all have as humans but which some fail to conjur to the best of our abilities. When you pray you are not communicating with a god in 'the guy in the sky' sense its the energy and spirit you have manifested through praying and being more conscious and intune with whats natuarlly around you which is the earth and solar system we live in.
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Influential
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Posted: Friday August 4th, 2006 23:09 |
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God does communicate with each and every 1 of his children, talkin isnt the only way to communicate, if you have read the scriptures there are those who have the ability to talk directly with God, to hear his voice, and others communicate with God in different ways even until this day . Communication is usually question and answer, if we ask God for something he will reply, but do we have the spiritual understanding to realise that God has answered our question?... Maybe or Maybe not... Perhaps God is trying to communicate with you, open your eyes and ears...
Peace
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saywone1
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Posted: Saturday August 5th, 2006 00:55 |
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Influential wrote: God does communicate with each and every 1 of his children, talkin isnt the only way to communicate, if you have read the scriptures there are those who have the ability to talk directly with God, to hear his voice, and others communicate with God in different ways even until this day . Communication is usually question and answer, if we ask God for something he will reply, but do we have the spiritual understanding to realise that God has answered our question?... Maybe or Maybe not... Perhaps God is trying to communicate with you, open your eyes and ears...
Peace
LOL
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Influential
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Posted: Saturday August 5th, 2006 09:45 |
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saywone1, I understand why you are all "LOL" about my comment, because its often human nature to reject, or belittle something that you don't understand or have yet to experience.... maybe not 2moro, not even in a year, maybe not even 10 years, but one day you won't be so "LOL"...
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Mamoulian
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Posted: Saturday August 5th, 2006 14:51 |
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defyfear wrote: Just playing around with this topic...
You cant worship a personal God if your dead ......
Salaam.
I disagree with this.
Worshipping God is completely submitting to a divine force which is beyond time and space.... The more of your own 'will' that you erase (ie, the greater your submittance) the closer you come to the divine force.
For this reason the dead - who possess no will - are made of pure faith.
On the subject of the thread.... in my mind it is not possible for humans to determine whether God exists or not since the world exists prior to us.
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Saturday August 5th, 2006 15:58 |
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Influential wrote: God does communicate with each and every 1 of his children, talkin isnt the only way to communicate, if you have read the scriptures there are those who have the ability to talk directly with God, to hear his voice, and others communicate with God in different ways even until this day . Communication is usually question and answer, if we ask God for something he will reply, but do we have the spiritual understanding to realise that God has answered our question?... Maybe or Maybe not... Perhaps God is trying to communicate with you, open your eyes and ears...
You have just demonstrated why a personal "God" cannot exist. You see, if "God" is by definition omnipotent and omniscient, then it is impossible for this entity to be "trying to communicate with you". There would be no ambiguities in the message, and no room for interpretation as people manifest scores of interpretations when reading the world's purported "holy books". Then there is the problem surfacing again as to why God would choose to talk to some but not others. Do you see how trying to justify this only makes you look like an irrational being? **I am not trying to be facetious**
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Peacemaker
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Posted: Saturday August 5th, 2006 21:05 |
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It has been said that a god could exist and be omnipotent and omniscient but can only be percieved and understood with a change in consciousness, or by becomiing more pure in consciousness...if it communicated in the way I've suggested then the message being given could only be of a personal nature, since only one's self would beable to interpret it.
Always there, yet to be seen or something like that.
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Apedemak
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Posted: Sunday August 6th, 2006 12:30 |
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Didn't I post in here? Think I must've put it in the wrong thread...
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Sunday August 6th, 2006 17:34 |
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Mamoulian wrote: Worshipping God is completely submitting to a divine force which is beyond time and space.... The more of your own 'will' that you erase (ie, the greater your submittance) the closer you come to the divine force.
No, that is just what some book (Qur'an) says. Hence why I put this in the Philosophy Forum to avoid Qur'an blather or Bible babble. We are talking about the philosophy behind "God", not what someone told you God is. I am asking people to actually think here...not regurgitate.
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Sunday August 6th, 2006 17:40 |
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Peacemaker wrote: It has been said that a god could exist and be omnipotent and omniscient but can only be percieved and understood with a change in consciousness, or by becomiing more pure in consciousness...if it communicated in the way I've suggested then the message being given could only be of a personal nature, since only one's self would beable to interpret it.
Always there, yet to be seen or something like that.
I was with you until what I highlighted above. This is the point where the philosophical argument breaks down, for if God was inherently omnipotent and omniscientand if God was making an intentful attempt to communicate, then it would not require the change in consciousness by the individual to understand.
If I were Chinese trying to talk to you in Chinese. I would probably fail because you probably don't know Chinese. Therefore, I would not be omniscient, for I don't know how to communicate with you in a way you intrinsically understand.
Last edited on Monday August 7th, 2006 10:06 by Shemsi en Tehuti
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Peacemaker
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Posted: Sunday August 6th, 2006 21:02 |
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Shemsi en Tehuti wrote:
I was with you until what I highlighted above. This is the point where the philosophical argument breaks down, for if God was inherently omnipotent and omniscientand if God was making an intentful attempt to communicate, then it would not require the change in consciousness by the individual to understand.
I disagree, I think people should have to make some effort, or they will be filled with incorrect thoughts in the first place and not beable connect and understand at all. Also I'm not looking or talking about a god in human terms here, I'm thinking something more along the lines of a computer system that operates in specific ways or according to certain laws i.e designed to reveal itself to anyone making a sincere effort.. I just use the word god because that is what people are familar with, I'm not even saying this god even feels or is even conscious, or knows the difference between good or bad. Personally I'd say not to use the word because it seems to have set parameters just like humans have, especially where the emotions are concerned. Nature perhaps is a better word.
If you want to detect planets around a distant star then you'd use instruments designed to detect them, or tune into them. Knowing how to use the tools would and should be a primary concern. The tool in this case would be ourselves.
If I were Chinese trying to talk to you in Chinese. I would probably fail because you probably don't know Chinese. Therefore, I would not be omniscient, for I don't know how to communicate with you in a way you intrinsically understand.
If you think of a god in human terms then you'll give it human limits. I'm not on about mass communication here. I'm going more along the lines of tuning into nature(everything) itself which can them help teach you about yourself and thus the planet your on.. Still they'd be slight trouble being in a country where you don't know the language, but then it's all upto the individual to become more like what they want to connect with in the first place.
Nature is visible thought. Heinrich Heine
Last edited on Sunday August 6th, 2006 21:05 by Peacemaker
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Mamoulian
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Posted: Monday August 7th, 2006 14:40 |
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Shemsi en Tehuti wrote:
No, that is just what some book (Qur'an) says. Hence why I put this in the Philosophy Forum to avoid Qur'an blather or Bible babble. We are talking about the philosophy behind "God", not what someone told you God is. I am asking people to actually think here...not regurgitate.
Salaam.
There is 'philosophy' behind God?
How can God be a creation of human ideas when the world existed prior to life?
Philosophy is intellectual vanity Shemsi.
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Monday August 7th, 2006 17:05 |
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Mamoulian wrote: There is 'philosophy' behind God?
How can God be a creation of human ideas when the world existed prior to life?
Philosophy is intellectual vanity Shemsi.
Hotep...
I think you are mistaken. There is only philosophy in religion, not God. Spirituality does not need religion or any philosophy to be understood by people. Religion is the product of trying to politicize spirituality, or mandate a philosophy for it. However, we may use philosophy (as I am doing now), in attempt to find out what "God" is.
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saywone1
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Posted: Monday August 7th, 2006 17:44 |
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Influential wrote: saywone1, I understand why you are all "LOL" about my comment, because its often human nature to reject, or belittle something that you don't understand or have yet to experience.... maybe not 2moro, not even in a year, maybe not even 10 years, but one day you won't be so "LOL"...
Peace
Alright you know what, maybe I shouldnt laugh because its not your fault you are being fed this fallacy of this guy called 'God'. First of all this god that you know and worship has no control over me or even you. You believing in something which is false and is not the truth. The word god comes from and was used during the times of BC and early AD when emporors of Rome where refered to as 'kings of Jews' and 'Gods'. These were titles they gave themsleves. Look it up yourself, do your research. The British Chronicles. The information is out there. This is where jesus himself was called 'the son of god' because he was baught up by Augustus Caesar who was his grandfather and he was Roman Emporor. Julius Ceasar was also called a 'God'.Also Jesus was not born of Joseph, who is supposedly his father. This supposed pure virgin mary was not;
Quote: " However, it was clearly recorded that joseph had sex with mary after the birth of jesus. The statement in the gospel of Mathew the Joseph
' knew her not until she had born a son' (Matt.1:25)
eliminated the church's claim that Mary was a perpetual virgin. From the statements in the gospels of Mark and Mathew it was clear that the brothers and sisters of jesus were subsequent children of Mary in the fullest sense. The gospels according to Mathew and Luke explain that they were 'betrothed' (engaged) before joseph returned from Galilee. However upon his (Joseph) return it was clear that Mary 'was with child' (Luke 2:5) and it 'could not be hid from joseph'....." The Gospel of of Mathew elaborated extensively upon the feelings of Joseph when he saw the violated condition of hi bride -to -be.
Dont believe me look it up and read a book called The bible Fraud by Tony Bushby.
http://www.thebiblefraud.com
Get the book, read it and come back and prove to me that what he say is all rubbish because you know what you can't. All you have t go buy is your false bible and faith and it is hard for people like you to comprehend and understand that YOU are the god and you do not understand when you strip away all the trappings and niceties of the society you live and tap into your natural spirit how powerful you are, its almost 'god like'. God is not some guy in the sky because something would have had to created 'him'. 'He' couldnt have just appeared out of no where.So whatever created this being that you pray to is ultimately what I believe you get in touch with and Its not a human being.
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defyfear
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Posted: Tuesday August 8th, 2006 04:23 |
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Mamoulian wrote: defyfear wrote: Just playing around with this topic...
You cant worship a personal God if your dead ......
Salaam.
I disagree with this.
Worshipping God is completely submitting to a divine force which is beyond time and space.... The more of your own 'will' that you erase (ie, the greater your submittance) the closer you come to the divine force.
For this reason the dead - who possess no will - are made of pure faith.
On the subject of the thread.... in my mind it is not possible for humans to determine whether God exists or not since the world exists prior to us.
Greetings.
Yes, I agree with letting go of our own selfish understanding at times in order to 'know' how God works.
If we are 'worshipping' God then that means we must 'know' God and how God operates. If it worked for your relative or ancestor and they instill this 'practice' in you, they must 'know'. Why 'practice' something that does not 'work'. But in order to do this we must be 'alive' to carry out this action. The dead in my view are dead. No will means no identity, not able to practice and build faith. If the dead are 'pure faith' I would expect much more for the 'living' which includes that mostly unrealized concept called 'love'. The dead are no longer the sole carriers of 'soul' but that 'soul' is reclaimed by the one who implanted it in the first place.
On your last comment, I seriously believe humans can determine whether God exists or prove that he does not exist. They do it with science, they do it with practicing laws related to living, they do it by letting go too, etc.
God does want to be found...or not. Its up to us to determine that using our 'will' freely.
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Tuesday August 8th, 2006 11:19 |
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defyfear wrote:
Yes, I agree with letting go of our own selfish understanding at times in order to 'know' how God works.
If we are 'worshipping' God then that means we must 'know' God and how God operates. If it worked for your relative or ancestor and they instill this 'practice' in you, they must 'know'. Why 'practice' something that does not 'work'. But in order to do this we must be 'alive' to carry out this action. The dead in my view are dead. No will means no identity, not able to practice and build faith. If the dead are 'pure faith' I would expect much more for the 'living' which includes that mostly unrealized concept called 'love'. The dead are no longer the sole carriers of 'soul' but that 'soul' is reclaimed by the one who implanted it in the first place.
On your last comment, I seriously believe humans can determine whether God exists or prove that he does not exist. They do it with science, they do it with practicing laws related to living, they do it by letting go too, etc.
God does want to be found...or not. Its up to us to determine that using our 'will' freely.
I'm sorry, but isn't this contradictory? First of all, why must you know how God operates? Why do you think that your infintessimal mind can comprehend how "God" operates? Lastly, it is one or the other, either God wants to be found or it does not. If it does, then it would communicate in a way that an omnipotent and omniscient being would be able to in order to make sure everyone understands without ambiguities. If he didn't want to be found, then there is no free will in determining God, for it would be impossible to actuate a will that is opposite of an omnipotent being.
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Mamoulian
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