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liberiangirl
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Posted: Monday May 1st, 2006 18:22 |
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I was reading an article the other day on forgiveness and it got me thinking.
The usual reasons as to why someone would forgive are:
1) It helps you let go of the anger and resentment holding you down
2) not forgiving someone gives them power over you
3) It frees you
Some of the reason some people dont forgive are:
1) If the person you forgave keeps on commiting the same wrong again and again.
2) that someone has commited you or do you believe that there are some things that are simply unforgivable.
So do you guys believe in that forgivness should be for everything, or do you think that some things are not to be forgiven?
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Incognito
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Posted: Monday May 1st, 2006 18:45 |
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| Find it impossible to hold malice. In the past I've found i may no speak to somene but can't remember why. I don't believe I consciously forgive. I also believe there is an inferiority complex where we are quick to forgive white people but not ourselves and we show no humility towards each other but are quick to bow to babylon. Last edited on Monday May 1st, 2006 18:46 by Incognito
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liberiangirl
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Posted: Monday May 1st, 2006 18:54 |
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| cognito..... I thought you were leaving, what happened?
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Gmahogany
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Posted: Thursday May 4th, 2006 05:45 |
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| I don't think forgiveness is always in order. Some things are not forgiveable. It depends on a lot of things. Are we talking about forgiving someone for talking about you behind your back/steals from you/cheats on you, or someone who kills your loved one/tries to kill u? Are we talking about forgiving them in the sense of not actively seeking revenge, or inviting them to your house for dinner? I think people throw the term around a lot, without really thinking about what it means. Like back in the 60's for example. Forgive/love your enemy, blah blah blah. I don't think lack of forgiveness is always about holding malice or having some burning hatred against someone, I think it can be about feeling that balance needs to be restored and it needs to be made clear that the offending behavior won't be tolerated, it's not necessarily emotional for me. In my mind, certain actions necessitate certain consequences, NOT having that occur, causes me distress. Once it occurs, I'm straight, lol.
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Peacemaker
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Posted: Thursday May 4th, 2006 13:53 |
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liberiangirl wrote:
So do you guys believe in that forgivness should be for everything, or do you think that some things are not to be forgiven?
I have no intention of forgiving anybody. Everybody deserves what they get.
Forgiveness is not the catalyst for change in a person.
Forgiveness doesn't even offer the understanding to a person on how to change for the better.
Forgiveness is not an all powerful tool that would make a person change in the first place.
Forgiveness is just a sympathic reaction.
Understanding far outweights any forgiveness anyone might offer.
If all the people had understanding then forgiveness wouldn't even exist.
However if someone has undesirable characteristics and knows it thus demonstrates that they are making an effort to enact a change within themselves and their lifes then I wouldn't shun them, in fact I'd probably offer some assistance. If contray to that I would have little to do with them since I don't want undesirables in my atmosphere, since they would prove distruptive to my life.
Forgiving people is simply another way of saying that I want more of this in my life. Kind of like the battered wife constantly forgiving the abuser, hoping for a change that seldom manifests.
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HatHaruhotep
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Posted: Friday May 5th, 2006 12:08 |
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Im Hotep Nubian People,
I'm tired of hearing all of this forgiveness talk. I'm sick of the worn out cliche that says if you do not forgive a person, you are giving them power over you. I've found in my life that that is just not the way it works.
The Wolof have a saying that goes, "God will not destroy a people whom one hates." This is the reality of the situation. As long as we hold hatred in our hearts towards any person, God leaves them to be a temptation for us. Anger is an inroad for much of the corrosive energy that causes pain in our lives. If you want to see the people who have done you wrong suffer, then purge your heart of the hate. Know that what they did to you was and always will be wrong, but know also that you have a choice. You can feed the evil that was done to you with your own precious energy, walking around spitting and cursing every time you think of what they did. Or you can turn your face towards the future. Concentrate on making your life better and reaching the goals that you have which have nothing to do with that individual. One day, maybe a year later or even ten years later, you will be in conversation with a mutual friend or relative and they will tell you that the person was walking down the street one day and a bus ran them over. Then when the paramedics tried to come and jumpstart their heart, a bolt of lightning hit the machine and it fried their skin off. Now you have gone on with your life, but the person who wronged you will look like Freddy Kruger and wear diapers for the rest of their life. And you will have your revenge without having dirtied your hands or your heart.
Mer en Sekhmet
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Gmahogany
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Posted: Friday May 5th, 2006 15:01 |
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I think that not seeing one who has wronged you, get their comeuppance is what does the damage to you, not the desire to see them get their comeuppance, which is why I believe in proactively helping them GET their comeuppance,lol. That way you're not just passively waiting around for the universe to do it for you. At any rate, I think James Brown's take on the issue said it best:
James Brown - The Payback Lyrics
hey! Gotta gotta pay back!! (The big payback)
Revenge!! I`m mad (the big payback)
Got to get back! Need some get back!! Pay Back! (the big payback)
That`s it!! Payback!!! Revenge!!!
I`m mad!!
Get down with my girlfriend, That ain`t right!!
Hollarin` cussin`, you wanna fight
Payback is a thing you gotta see
Brother do any damn thing to me
Sold me out, for chicken change (yes you did!!)
Told me that they, they had it all arranged
You handed me down, and thats a fact
Now you`re pumped, You gotta get ready For the big payback!! (the big
payback!!)
That`s where I am, the big payback (the big payback!!)
I can do wheelin`, I can do dealin` (yes you can!!) But I don`t do no damn
squealin`
I can dig rappin`, I`m ready!! I can dig scrappin`
But I can`t dig that backstabbin` (Oh No!!)
The brother get ready!! Thats a fact!!
Get ready you Mother, for the big payback (The big Payback!!)
Let me hit `em hit`em!! Hey Hey!! WOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Took my money, you got my honey
Don`t want me to see what you doing to me
I got to get back I gotta deal with you!! (4xs) Hey let me tell ya!!
Get down with my woman, that ain`t right! You hollarin` and cussin`, you wanna
fight!!
Don`t do me no darn favor,
I don`t know karate, but I know KA-RAZOR!!!! (yes we do!!)
Get ready thats a fact, Get ready you Mother for the big payback (the big
payback!)
Hey!! I`m a man! I`m a man! I`m a son of a man, but don`t they tell ya that
poppa can
Get ready for the big payback (the big payback!!) Hit `em again!!
Get ready I need it, I need a hit again!! Say it once (3xs) Hit `em
again!!
(the big payback!!) Sold me out for chicken change
Said my woman had it all arranged
Tryin` to make a deal, she wants to squeal But I had my boys on a hill
Saw me comin`, told a lie Went down like she wanted to cry
I don`t care what she does, you'll be doin` just like she was
Take those kids and raise them up, show em how to drink out a righetous cup
Take her, take that woman, it`s one place she found
Just run that mother out of town!!
Make her get up, make her get up and get out!! (2xs)
I`m mad!! I want revenge, I want revenge (the big payback!!) I want revenge
(3xs)
(the big payback!!) Give me those hits!! I want some hits!! I need those
hits, hit me!![code]smoking-devil
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zaghawa
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Posted: Wednesday May 10th, 2006 01:18 |
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liberiangirl wrote: I was reading an article the other day on forgiveness and it got me thinking.
The usual reasons as to why someone would forgive are:
1) It helps you let go of the anger and resentment holding you down
2) not forgiving someone gives them power over you
3) It frees you
Some of the reason some people dont forgive are:
1) If the person you forgave keeps on commiting the same wrong again and again.
2) that someone has commited you or do you believe that there are some things that are simply unforgivable.
So do you guys believe in that forgivness should be for everything, or do you think that some things are not to be forgiven?
Forgiveness, in its truest form, is psychologically being able to move past a situation that has caused one injury.
Not only does it comprise the aspect of no longer holding resentment against the individual or individuals who wronged us but it is predicated on being able to attain a compensation and a restoration of our pride which allows us to move forward with our lives.
Revenge and forgiveness are both attempts to do the same thing. To alleviate ourselves of the resentment that we feel and to act as a compensation and restore our pride from the injury that we have sustained.
A person who is not able to do this, one way or another, usually goes through life embittered by some event that he can’t “shake off�. That is the purpose of forgiveness … and interestingly enough, it is also the purpose of revenge. The purpose is to shake off the event and gain a psychological compensation.
There are many people who say they have forgiven … but they haven’t. As far as revenge is concerned, that doesn’t always work either.
How many 30 year olds do you know who still blame their parents for their rotten lives. These people have not been able to “shake off� the past. They are haunted by these deamons until they find a way to get past it and achieve some kind of compensation. Whether they revenge themselves, or they are able to forgive, they will probably be stuck in bitterness and in the past. They will blame some event in the present on “I had a bad childhood�.
People who attempt forgiveness or revenge are both attempting to do the same thing in different ways.
And just because you have forgiven somebody doesn't mean you have to be around them. That is beside the point.
Last edited on Wednesday May 10th, 2006 02:41 by zaghawa
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ChubbiChix
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Posted: Saturday May 13th, 2006 02:29 |
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Peacemaker wrote: liberiangirl wrote:
So do you guys believe in that forgivness should be for everything, or do you think that some things are not to be forgiven?
I have no intention of forgiving anybody. Everybody deserves what they get. Lol
Forgiveness is not the catalyst for change in a person.
Forgiveness doesn't even offer the understanding to a person on how to change for the better.
Forgiveness is not an all powerful tool that would make a person change in the first place.
Forgiveness is just a sympathic reaction.
Understanding far outweights any forgiveness anyone might offer.
If all the people had understanding then forgiveness wouldn't even exist.
Very well said, forgiveness more often then not puts you in a position for it to happen again since your repeating the same insane action and thats trusting them.
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Lucas...
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Posted: Saturday May 13th, 2006 12:25 |
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Mmmmmm
forgiveness is the easy part
...forgetting is the hard part
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Mmmmm.....This man inspires me daily
(Carl)
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Backatya
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Posted: Saturday May 13th, 2006 21:18 |
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zaghawa wrote:
Forgiveness, in its truest form, is psychologically being able to move past a situation that has caused one injury.
I don't agree. I am more than able to move on from a situation without ever forgiving the wrong doer. The fact that I don't forgive them doesn't mean that I thoughts of them burning in hell constantly occupy my mind. It just means I don't think they have atoned (within their heart) enough to be forgiven.
Not only does it comprise the aspect of no longer holding resentment against the individual or individuals who wronged us but it is predicated on being able to attain a compensation and a restoration of our pride which allows us to move forward with our lives.
Sorry, but I think that is psycho-babble mish mash. One can choose not to forgive whilst at the same time choosing not to hold resentment. Really it is not that hard. It is about being assured within yourself and understanding the true nature of forgiveness.
You see to forgive is not simply an act of 'letting go'. It is the acknowledgement that you are prepared to reinstate the wrongdoer to the position they held in your thoughts/life/affection or whatever, before they did you wrong. Try looking at forgiveness that way and then ask yourself 'who in your life you have truly forgiven?'
Revenge and forgiveness are both attempts to do the same thing. To alleviate ourselves of the resentment that we feel and to act as a compensation and restore our pride from the injury that we have sustained.
Sorry, more psycho-babble in my view. Revenge is basically an attempt to 'get even' i.e. to give pain back. Completely different to forgiveness. Some people may believe that they need to forgive in order to let go of resentment, but that is because they don't really understand the true nature of forgiveness or because they in someway feel guilty about their feelings toward the one who did them wrong.
A person who is not able to do this, one way or another, usually goes through life embittered by some event that he can’t “shake off�.
Embitteredness is not caused by the inability to forgive. It is caused by the inability to put into perspective the various harsh things that happen in our lives as well as not having the knowledge and understanding that we are much more than the feelings we allow to dominate our psyche.
That is the purpose of forgiveness … and interestingly enough, it is also the purpose of revenge. The purpose is to shake off the event and gain a psychological compensation.
No, No, No. That is not the purpose of forgiveness. In fact forgiveness has no purpose. It is something that happens when all the factors neccessary for its occurance are present. The mere saying of "I forgive" in response to a wrong that has been done against you, is about as useless as saying "I am full" when you are starving for not having eaten for 3 days. Saying it does not make it so. When all the conditions are right, it will be. But as I said before, it comes down to understanding the true nature of forgiveness. Very few people do.
There are many people who say they have forgiven … but they haven’t.
Precisely. And why do you think that is?
As far as revenge is concerned, that doesn’t always work either.
There you go again, mixing oranges and pears.
How many 30 year olds do you know who still blame their parents for their rotten lives. These people have not been able to “shake off� the past. They are haunted by these deamons until they find a way to get past it and achieve some kind of compensation. Whether they revenge themselves, or they are able to forgive, they will probably be stuck in bitterness and in the past. They will blame some event in the present on “I had a bad childhood�.
People who attempt forgiveness or revenge are both attempting to do the same thing in different ways.
And just because you have forgiven somebody doesn't mean you have to be around them. That is beside the point.
Now your argument is becoming confuluted as well as psycho-babbling.
Respect
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Mezmerized
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Posted: Saturday May 13th, 2006 22:37 |
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Why don't we ask our Papa Mandela the definition of forgiveness? 
I believe that Africans generally have mis-interpreted the true meaning of forgiviness. And this is due to us being too over zealous on religions, but what i find funny is this: I have a cousin who is very religious....Jesus is in EVERTHING she does....however i find her to be VERY unforgiving towards Africans yet is UNDERSTANDING of the whites...she has even gone as far as saying that she will never go back to live in Africa(due to some bad experiences she suffered back home), but she is willing to live side by side by whites who murdered millions of her people.
Very weird...
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Gmahogany
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Posted: Sunday May 14th, 2006 04:13 |
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Mezmerized wrote: Why don't we ask our Papa Mandela the definition of forgiveness?
I believe that Africans generally have mis-interpreted the true meaning of forgiviness. And this is due to us being too over zealous on religions, but what i find funny is this: I have a cousin who is very religious....Jesus is in EVERTHING she does....however i find her to be VERY unforgiving towards Africans yet is UNDERSTANDING of the whites...she has even gone as far as saying that she will never go back to live in Africa(due to some bad experiences she suffered back home), but she is willing to live side by side by whites who murdered millions of her people.
Very weird...
Very weird indeed. That's why I make it a point to recite my "payback" mantra whenever I hear folks going on about forgiveness. Most of the time, people say it because that's what they think they SHOULD say. In the case of Black folks, it often is a smoke screen for the fact that we are hopelessly in love with, and scared of white folks. The proof of that being, as u said, we often don't practice it within our own families or race. Like Backatya said, true forgiveness is coming to a place where you can really feel the same way you did about the person before they wronged you. If you can do that, all well and good, but if you can't, that's well and good too, imo.
A couple of years ago, Myrlie Evers-former president of the NAACP and widow of Medgar Evers, (NAACP activist from Mississippi killed in the 60's), was at one of those Black town meetings they have on C-span. She was talking about how she harbored hatred in her heart for whites and for some sell out Blacks in her heart for years, after her husband was killed. All of the Negroes in the room gasped like they couldn't believe she was saying that she was filled with hatred at one time. She picked up on it and reiterated it again, "YES I HATED",lol. This woman saw her husband gunned down in their drive way(for registering Blacks to vote, basically), was left to raise their kids alone, yet these fools wanna act like she said something strange because she hated the people who did it. I think a lot of times we just say sh*t because we think it sounds good, or makes good cliches or bumper stickers. It has nothing to do with reality, and it's annoying as hell.
Last edited on Sunday May 14th, 2006 04:16 by Gmahogany
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zaghawa
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Posted: Wednesday May 17th, 2006 21:31 |
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Backatya wrote: zaghawa wrote:
Forgiveness, in its truest form, is psychologically being able to move past a situation that has caused one injury.
I don't agree. I am more than able to move on from a situation without ever forgiving the wrong doer. The fact that I don't forgive them doesn't mean that I thoughts of them burning in hell constantly occupy my mind. It just means I don't think they have atoned (within their heart) enough to be forgiven.
If you have moved on from an injury and no longer hold excessive ressentment or the strong urge to punish then you have forgiven. The worse the injury the harder it is to forgive.
The christian concept of forgiveness does not require that an individual "atone".
Not only does it comprise the aspect of no longer holding resentment against the individual or individuals who wronged us but it is predicated on being able to attain a compensation and a restoration of our pride which allows us to move forward with our lives.
Sorry, but I think that is psycho-babble mish mash. One can choose not to forgive whilst at the same time choosing not to hold resentment. Really it is not that hard. It is about being assured within yourself and understanding the true nature of forgiveness.
You see to forgive is not simply an act of 'letting go'. It is the acknowledgement that you are prepared to reinstate the wrongdoer to the position they held in your thoughts/life/affection or whatever, before they did you wrong. Try looking at forgiveness that way and then ask yourself 'who in your life you have truly forgiven?'
No, forgiveness does not necessarily include a reinstatement of the wrongdoer to the position they held in your life before they caused the injury.
That is something entirely different. Whether you further choose to be around the person who injured you should be based on many other factors
Revenge and forgiveness are both attempts to do the same thing. To alleviate ourselves of the resentment that we feel and to act as a compensation and restore our pride from the injury that we have sustained.
Sorry, more psycho-babble in my view. Revenge is basically an attempt to 'get even' i.e. to give pain back. Completely different to forgiveness. Some people may believe that they need to forgive in order to let go of resentment, but that is because they don't really understand the true nature of forgiveness or because they in someway feel guilty about their feelings toward the one who did them wrong.
Both revenge and forgiveness are an attempt to provide a psychological compensation for an injury that we have sustained. In both cases we hope to "feel better", "get past" and "deal with" the injury that was done to us.
A person who is not able to do this, one way or another, usually goes through life embittered by some event that he can’t “shake off�.
Embitteredness is not caused by the inability to forgive. It is caused by the inability to put into perspective the various harsh things that happen in our lives as well as not having the knowledge and understanding that we are much more than the feelings we allow to dominate our psyche.
That is the purpose of forgiveness … and interestingly enough, it is also the purpose of revenge. The purpose is to shake off the event and gain a psychological compensation.
No, No, No. That is not the purpose of forgiveness. In fact forgiveness has no purpose. It is something that happens when all the factors neccessary for its occurance are present. The mere saying of "I forgive" in response to a wrong that has been done against you, is about as useless as saying "I am full" when you are starving for not having eaten for 3 days. Saying it does not make it so. When all the conditions are right, it will be. But as I said before, it comes down to understanding the true nature of forgiveness. Very few people do.
I believe forgiveness has a specific purpose. I agree with the rest of your statement.
There are many people who say they have forgiven … but they haven’t.
Precisely. And why do you think that is?
Because people can say one thing and do another. Forgiveness is an act, not a speech.
As far as revenge is concerned, that doesn’t always work either.
There you go again, mixing oranges and pears.
How many 30 year olds do you know who still blame their parents for their rotten lives. These people have not been able to “shake off� the past. They are haunted by these deamons until they find a way to get past it and achieve some kind of compensation. Whether they revenge themselves, or they are able to forgive, they will probably be stuck in bitterness and in the past. They will blame some event in the present on “I had a bad childhood�.
People who attempt forgiveness or revenge are both attempting to do the same thing in different ways.
And just because you have forgiven somebody doesn't mean you have to be around them. That is beside the point.
Now your argument is becoming confuluted as well as psycho-babbling.
I agree that the example i provided could have been a better one... this is only a message board though. Living well, is the best revenge. 
Respect
Last edited on Wednesday May 17th, 2006 21:42 by zaghawa
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zaghawa
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Posted: Wednesday May 17th, 2006 21:40 |
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Mezmerized wrote: Why don't we ask our Papa Mandela the definition of forgiveness?
I believe that Africans generally have mis-interpreted the true meaning of forgiviness. And this is due to us being too over zealous on religions, but what i find funny is this: I have a cousin who is very religious....Jesus is in EVERTHING she does....however i find her to be VERY unforgiving towards Africans yet is UNDERSTANDING of the whites...she has even gone as far as saying that she will never go back to live in Africa(due to some bad experiences she suffered back home), but she is willing to live side by side by whites who murdered millions of her people.
Very weird...
As individuals, our sense of injury comes from those who have personally wronged us.
So it is not surprising that she holds ressentment against people who have personally caused her injury.
The majority of whites she lives side by side with are no more responsible for history than anyone else.
Last edited on Wednesday May 17th, 2006 21:41 by zaghawa
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Agape
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Posted: Saturday May 27th, 2006 09:23 |
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HatHaruhotep wrote: Im Hotep Nubian People,
I'm tired of hearing all of this forgiveness talk. I'm sick of the worn out cliche that says if you do not forgive a person, you are giving them power over you. I've found in my life that that is just not the way it works.
The Wolof have a saying that goes, "God will not destroy a people whom one hates." This is the reality of the situation. As long as we hold hatred in our hearts towards any person, God leaves them to be a temptation for us. Anger is an inroad for much of the corrosive energy that causes pain in our lives. If you want to see the people who have done you wrong suffer, then purge your heart of the hate. Know that what they did to you was and always will be wrong, but know also that you have a choice. You can feed the evil that was done to you with your own precious energy, walking around spitting and cursing every time you think of what they did. Or you can turn your face towards the future. Concentrate on making your life better and reaching the goals that you have which have nothing to do with that individual. One day, maybe a year later or even ten years later, you will be in conversation with a mutual friend or relative and they will tell you that the person was walking down the street one day and a bus ran them over. Then when the paramedics tried to come and jumpstart their heart, a bolt of lightning hit the machine and it fried their skin off. Now you have gone on with your life, but the person who wronged you will look like Freddy Kruger and wear diapers for the rest of their life. And you will have your revenge without having dirtied your hands or your heart.
Mer en Sekhmet
ain't that the truth!!!!!!
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ibayansan
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Posted: Sunday September 17th, 2006 18:47 |
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Alafia,
I forgive when it is necessary, but I NEVER forget. I am trying to work through the emotions of being betrayed by two people whom were dear to me. I will never forgive them. Because they made a conscious choice to take those actions against me. I can say that I appreciate the experience. Through the experience, I've learned some valubale lessons. I know how to read the signs if they appear again. I know how to kill the root of the problem. I know how to prevent it from blossoming into a physical, or emotional disaster. What happens when a person fails a class in the education system? Most of the time, they have to take that class again until they make a grade that will take them to the next level. Life is a learning experience. Those who don't pass the tests that life brings, will find themselves in the same cycle for years. Others will accept the lessons that life brings. This will allow them to graduate to the next level.
Odabgo
Last edited on Sunday September 17th, 2006 18:49 by ibayansan
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bluehoney
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Posted: Sunday October 29th, 2006 22:30 |
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some people really believe that it is hard to forgive, but not to forget....
the only way i can forgive is to forget...the offense and the person who committed it...
time does great things for the soul...
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