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DSP
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Posted: Friday April 7th, 2006 05:28 |
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when the earth was created is physically still here.
Do you believe this?
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The Watcher
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Posted: Friday April 7th, 2006 12:31 |
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| Yes but not in it's current form because everything breaks down over time into simpler forms (entropy) even you. The earth is actually gaining mass daily (dust and meteors) and it's rotation is slowing down.
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Prince Hakeem
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Posted: Friday April 7th, 2006 13:11 |
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DSP wrote: when the earth was created is physically still here.
Do you believe this?
Yes.
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Lady Aleisha
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Posted: Friday April 7th, 2006 13:14 |
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DrunkMonkey wrote: Yes but not in it's current form because everything breaks down over time into simpler forms (entropy) even you. The earth is actually gaining mass daily (dust and meteors) and it's rotation is slowing down.
what he said
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MyThoughts
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Posted: Friday April 7th, 2006 14:55 |
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Can I link this to religion?
If this is so...does the religious term eternal life with god...simply mean life in the universe. So technically or scientically they are correct in thinking there is no such thing as ultimate death.
Another aspect can this not be seen as reincarnation?
For some reason science and religion be fitting in so nicely together. All cosy and spudding each other.
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Friday April 7th, 2006 20:13 |
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MyThoughts wrote: Can I link this to religion?
If this is so...does the religious term eternal life with god...simply mean life in the universe. So technically or scientically they are correct in thinking there is no such thing as ultimate death.
Another aspect can this not be seen as reincarnation?
For some reason science and religion be fitting in so nicely together. All cosy and spudding each other.
=============================
The problem with linking religion with this is that they introduce ridiculous notions about how it all began and the state of eternity. Yes, whether you believe there is a God or not, in some form your energy is eternal either way. However, the technical specifics of it makes religious folks uneasy because when you really think about it, the scientific precepts behind everyone's eternal energy makes religion rather superfluous. It only leads to the question...what's the point?...a question the religionists do not want to answer.
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MyThoughts
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Posted: Friday April 7th, 2006 22:07 |
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Thoth B3 wrote: MyThoughts wrote: Can I link this to religion?
If this is so...does the religious term eternal life with god...simply mean life in the universe. So technically or scientically they are correct in thinking there is no such thing as ultimate death.
Another aspect can this not be seen as reincarnation?
For some reason science and religion be fitting in so nicely together. All cosy and spudding each other.
=============================
The problem with linking religion with this is that they introduce ridiculous notions about how it all began and the state of eternity. Yes, whether you believe there is a God or not, in some form your energy is eternal either way. However, the technical specifics of it makes religious folks uneasy because when you really think about it, the scientific precepts behind everyone's eternal energy makes religion rather superfluous. It only leads to the question...what's the point?...a question the religionists do not want to answer.
Yes but lets not discuss it from how religious folks interpret it...that is for the other forum *shudders*
If we look at it from the "we haven't interpreted religion in the right way" school. That is those ancient words are telling us what science is now telling us.
Could not what is said be directly linked to that scientific explanation of the universe...the first laws of physics - Energy is never lost nor destroyed it is merely transferred.
Science and religion are the same thing just said in a different way. Could that not be easily argued??
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The Watcher
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Posted: Friday April 7th, 2006 22:19 |
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MyThoughts wrote: Thoth B3 wrote: MyThoughts wrote: Can I link this to religion?
If this is so...does the religious term eternal life with god...simply mean life in the universe. So technically or scientically they are correct in thinking there is no such thing as ultimate death.
Another aspect can this not be seen as reincarnation?
For some reason science and religion be fitting in so nicely together. All cosy and spudding each other.
=============================
The problem with linking religion with this is that they introduce ridiculous notions about how it all began and the state of eternity. Yes, whether you believe there is a God or not, in some form your energy is eternal either way. However, the technical specifics of it makes religious folks uneasy because when you really think about it, the scientific precepts behind everyone's eternal energy makes religion rather superfluous. It only leads to the question...what's the point?...a question the religionists do not want to answer.
Yes but lets not discuss it from how religious folks interpret it...that is for the other forum *shudders*
If we look at it from the "we haven't interpreted religion in the right way" school. That is those ancient words are telling us what science is now telling us.
Could not what is said be directly linked to that scientific explanation of the universe...the first laws of physics - Energy is never lost nor destroyed it is merely transferred.
Science and religion are the same thing just said in a different way. Could that not be easily argued??
That's matter. Matter isn't lost or destroyed but transformed. You burn a peice of wood it turns to ash and smoke, it doesn't dissapear. The HEAT energy in the fire does though. It dissapates.
Energy IS lost. Entropy. Everything eventually loses energy. The sun pulls on earth slowing it down. It falls into the sun slowly. The rotation spins, the moon drifts away....
The universe will run out of energy. Stars are created from the dust of other stars. Each time matter and energy is lost, as well as during the stars life. Over time (a stupidly long time) the number of stars dwindle until their is no more energy to make more. The space between them too far and the universe ultimately cold and black though with the same amount of matter as it originally had.
This is assuming the universe is a closed system and will continue to expand....
Not sure how any of that fits in to the religious bit but just making the correction 
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MyThoughts
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Posted: Friday April 7th, 2006 22:41 |
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DrunkMonkey wrote:
That's matter. Matter isn't lost or destroyed but transformed. You burn a peice of wood it turns to ash and smoke, it doesn't dissapear. The HEAT energy in the fire does though. It dissapates.
Energy IS lost. Entropy. Everything eventually loses energy. The sun pulls on earth slowing it down. It falls into the sun slowly. The rotation spins, the moon drifts away....
The universe will run out of energy. Stars are created from the dust of other stars. Each time matter and energy is lost, as well as during the stars life. Over time (a stupidly long time) the number of stars dwindle until their is no more energy to make more. The space between them too far and the universe ultimately cold and black though with the same amount of matter as it originally had.
This is assuming the universe is a closed system and will continue to expand....
Not sure how any of that fits in to the religious bit but just making the correction
Ok cool, let me work with this i'll be back...
Never been one for science me...I'm a find a link somewhere but that website is EVIL...them greek letters be going way over my head right now. I'l read up later.
Last edited on Friday April 7th, 2006 22:49 by MyThoughts
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The Watcher
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Posted: Friday April 7th, 2006 22:59 |
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Try this one instead. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death
You don't need the proof or formulas. Just concentrate on the concepts LOL
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Posted: Friday April 7th, 2006 23:09 |
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Hmmm....matter this link so much better than energy.
If you don't understand how something works or what something is, you'll explain it in terms you do understand. Hence you never knew what a plane was, and you knew what a bird was...more than likely you'll describe it as a metal bird. Easy. Just the same as in cargo cults...major religion I guess can be seen in the same light.
Ok so matter throughout the beginning of time have never been destroyed or lost...so reincarnation is misunderstood and misinterpreted by religious folks...
The acts of a "god" can describe what the ancient people saw but explained in their terms. SO the people were clued up on acts and occurences in the universe but obviously did not use "scientific" language of today. Instead imagery was use.
So was ancient texts and scribes telling us in their terms what science is telling us now in our terms
I've got more coming somewhere in my head...I'ma write a book.
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The Watcher
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Posted: Friday April 7th, 2006 23:23 |
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MyThoughts wrote: Hmmm....matter this link so much better than energy.
If you don't understand how something works or what something is, you'll explain it in terms you do understand. Hence you never knew what a plane was, and you knew what a bird was...more than likely you'll describe it as a metal bird. Easy. Just the same as in cargo cults...major religion I guess can be seen in the same light.
Ok so matter throughout the beginning of time have never been destroyed or lost...so reincarnation is misunderstood and misinterpreted by religious folks...
Slow down. Religious folks refer to the reincarnation of a soul. A soul is an unmeasurable, unquantifiable thing. Wether it has matter or energy or even exists is speculation. We can make analogies about matter but to use the same rules for something we don't know about isn't a good way to go about things. There may be souls (who knows) but you can't decide wether the energy model or the matter one fits their behaviour until you can measure and observe them. Until then it's mere imagination.
The acts of a "god" can describe what the ancient people saw but explained in their terms. SO the people were clued up on acts and occurences in the universe (limited by what technology they had (no measuring of electromagnetic spectrum beyond visible light for example) but obviously did not use "scientific" language of today. Instead imagery was use.
So was ancient texts and scribes telling us in their terms what science is telling us now in our terms
No because limited knowledge leads to limited or false conclusions. If you only see in black and white you might assume that a chameleon is merely a lizard with a fast tongue. They didn't know about photosynthesis so they thought the plants were made BEFORE the sun for example. Who knows what discoveries to come in the future will change how we see the universe? It's not merely about different explainations for the same thing but seeing things from a whole new perspective and discovering new things not considered.
I've got more coming somewhere in my head...I'ma write a book.
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Posted: Saturday April 8th, 2006 00:10 |
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@DM
I'm talking it away from religious folks and their beliefs and moving more with just the words being misintrepreted and SOLD to us in this form. How can we actually know this is not what was meant?
As for the rest I hear what u saying, but I'll make it work somehow watch this space.
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Sunday April 9th, 2006 17:38 |
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DrunkMonkey wrote: That's matter. Matter isn't lost or destroyed but transformed. You burn a peice of wood it turns to ash and smoke, it doesn't dissapear. The HEAT energy in the fire does though. It dissapates.
Energy IS lost. Entropy. Everything eventually loses energy. The sun pulls on earth slowing it down. It falls into the sun slowly. The rotation spins, the moon drifts away....
The universe will run out of energy. Stars are created from the dust of other stars. Each time matter and energy is lost, as well as during the stars life. Over time (a stupidly long time) the number of stars dwindle until their is no more energy to make more. The space between them too far and the universe ultimately cold and black though with the same amount of matter as it originally had.
This is assuming the universe is a closed system and will continue to expand....
Not sure how any of that fits in to the religious bit but just making the correction
================================
It is correct that energy is lost, but it merely turns into potential energy. It may not be able to be used (with current technology) in its form after being combusted, burned, or so forth, but I think it is still considered potential energy. The theories cooked up by Einstein suggests all matter is energy of some form. Now, the only way entropy could take place to make the Universe totally devoid of energy would mean that it expands so large that each particle of matter could not interact with each other. That is kind of far-fatched. If that were to actually happen, the amount of time it would take at the current theorized rate of Universe expansion cannot even be fathomed. It is more practical to just call that eternity.
Oh yeah, is there not some evidence that the Universe actually oscillates, where it doesn't just unremittingly expand?
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The Watcher
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Posted: Sunday April 9th, 2006 21:37 |
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Now, the only way entropy could take place to make the Universe totally devoid of energy would mean that it expands so large that each particle of matter could not interact with each other.
Remember that the rate of expansion is increasing all the time. It's not so far fetched. The level of oscillation or even possible contraction or slowing depends entirely on how much dark matter there is and that is not settled.
And you don't need complete stillness.
Just as close to it as to be practical. Once particles are far enough from each other to coalesce into stars under their own gravity that is enough to be a pratical stillness.
Oh yeah, is there not some evidence that the Universe actually oscillates, where it doesn't just unremittingly expand?
Never confuse theories with observations. All observations show that the rate of expansion of the universe is speeding up. People have theorised using math that it MAY oscillate but then people have theorised many silly things. Who knows with observing such things? And how could we possible exist long enough to know?
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Monday April 10th, 2006 12:30 |
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DrunkMonkey wrote:
Remember that the rate of expansion is increasing all the time. It's not so far fetched. The level of oscillation or even possible contraction or slowing depends entirely on how much dark matter there is and that is not settled.
......
Oh yeah, is there not some evidence that the Universe actually oscillates, where it doesn't just unremittingly expand?
Never confuse theories with observations. All observations show that the rate of expansion of the universe is speeding up. People have theorised using math that it MAY oscillate but then people have theorised many silly things. Who knows with observing such things? And how could we possible exist long enough to know?
=========================================
Well, for arguments sake, would it not be equally as silly to assume the Universe is only increasing given our observations most probably lacks the chronological span to even capture more than one theoretical oscillatory period of the Universe? Take for instance the following...
The derivative A is much less than B. I am sure you know what I am talking about, but for the less mathematically inclined folks on BNV, the rate of increase at Point-A is much slower than the rate of increase at Point-B. Therefore, if all of our observations are in the locality of Point-B, given our very short time of being able to make these observations, then it could appear that the Universe is only increasing.
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The Watcher
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Posted: Monday April 10th, 2006 13:35 |
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I maintain that if all you can see and measure is that from point B then anything else is irrelevant. Yes you can derive or speculate on what point A is like but without experiencing it you have no proof.
I have problems with theoretical cosmology or things based unseen/unmeasurable events. It's no better than believing in a God imo. No evidence. The universe could behave like it does in your graph and shrink/expand indefinately or it could do one or the other or neither and remain static tomorow. Anything other than what we see and measure (the expansion) to me is not important outside of being an interesting idea.
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Posted: Monday April 10th, 2006 14:59 |
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DrunkMonkey wrote: I maintain that if all you can see and measure is that from point B then anything else is irrelevant. Yes you can derive or speculate on what point A is like but without experiencing it you have no proof.
I have problems with theoretical cosmology or things based unseen/unmeasurable events. It's no better than believing in a God imo. No evidence. The universe could behave like it does in your graph and shrink/expand indefinately or it could do one or the other or neither and remain static tomorow. Anything other than what we see and measure (the expansion) to me is not important outside of being an interesting idea.
=====================================
I would argue that there may be some evidence. We have been able to confirm back a few hundred million years for the existence of the Universe. Has there been a solid theory as to why there are certain periods of climatic change in the Earth? The different periods of global warming, ice ages, earth plate shifts, etc. are influenced by the Universe (or our solar system) as well...the Earth isn't an isolated system. If there have been periodic occurrences on Earth over long spans of time, why not with the rest of the Universe? This may be more implicit, but it seems to be not explicitly measured as opposed to there being no evidence.
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Posted: Monday April 10th, 2006 22:42 |
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Thoth B3 wrote: DrunkMonkey wrote: I maintain that if all you can see and measure is that from point B then anything else is irrelevant. Yes you can derive or speculate on what point A is like but without experiencing it you have no proof.
I have problems with theoretical cosmology or things based unseen/unmeasurable events. It's no better than believing in a God imo. No evidence. The universe could behave like it does in your graph and shrink/expand indefinately or it could do one or the other or neither and remain static tomorow. Anything other than what we see and measure (the expansion) to me is not important outside of being an interesting idea.
=====================================
I would argue that there may be some evidence. We have been able to confirm back a few hundred million years for the existence of the Universe. Has there been a solid theory as to why there are certain periods of climatic change in the Earth? The different periods of global warming, ice ages, earth plate shifts, etc. are influenced by the Universe (or our solar system) as well...the Earth isn't an isolated system. If there have been periodic occurrences on Earth over long spans of time, why not with the rest of the Universe? This may be more implicit, but it seems to be not explicitly measured as opposed to there being no evidence.
LOL @ comparing the time period of the universe to climatic change on earth... That's so inappropriate!
The climatic changes on earth are due to the wobble of earth. As you know earth doesn't spin perfectley on axis but wobbles. That's due to the pull of all the other planets on earth in opposition to the suns gravity, also to solar flares and the suns own 11 year cycle of change. These things can be and are measured, go look it up!
The universe is 13-15 billion years old. Ice ages and warm periods alternate between 50,000 years at most. Wholly inappropriate to compare. The scale of size is silly too.
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Posted: Saturday April 15th, 2006 16:27 |
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Everything that was here when the earth was created is physically still here.
Prehaps why some traditions worship rock or the form of the earth itself as it is the form of the beginning as it were... What I find intresting is the worshipping of ancestors and the relation to this. The topic is blazing above me with DM and Toth locking wits but from the veiw that energy is renewable; A person passes and their body is buried within the earth to decompose into the trees and plants that will soon surround it, the people that live there then say that the land is holy as it is their ancestors as seen in the life around them, making them a part of that land.
I forget the name of the Japanese religion that worships the form of the earth... The muslesm also worship rock but the rock of mecca might be from space.
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Saturday April 15th, 2006 18:54 |
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DrunkMonkey wrote: LOL @ comparing the time period of the universe to climatic change on earth... That's so inappropriate!
The climatic changes on earth are due to the wobble of earth. As you know earth doesn't spin perfectley on axis but wobbles. That's due to the pull of all the other planets on earth in opposition to the suns gravity, also to solar flares and the suns own 11 year cycle of change. These things can be and are measured, go look it up!
The universe is 13-15 billion years old. Ice ages and warm periods alternate between 50,000 years at most. Wholly inappropriate to compare. The scale of size is silly too.
=================
I don't see how you can dismiss the effects of the Universe on the Earth's climatic change so easily. We were just talking about the loss of usable energy, but you seem to ignore the amount of radiated energy on Earth is almost directly proportional to its position during its orbit around the sun. Furthermore, the exact orbital path of the Earth is uniquely determined by the orientation of other masses orbiting the same object (the Sun). Hence why we continue to look for new planets because we know that there must be more orbital mass (planets perhaps) for the Earth to follow its present orbital path...which certainly affects climatic changes. This does not even take into account foreign objects that spontaneously or cyclically enter our solar system, thereby changing the orbit of the planets.
Theories on climate changes certainly are not perfected, but that is most probably due to insufficient research done.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milankovitch_cycles
Another thing, Ice Ages particularly have had frequencies of 40,000 & 100,000 years dating back to the Proterozoic Era over 2 billion years ago. This does not even account for the glacial periods that were not full-blown Ice Ages. It has been shown that certain Earth climate conditions seem to have coincided with certain orbital patterns in prehistory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age
I am not arguing that there is a linear relationship between periods of the Universe and the Earth, but I think it is fair to say it simply has not been accurately modelled. We have not even accurately modelled the Earth, so accurate models certainly do not exist for the Universe.
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Posted: Saturday April 15th, 2006 18:58 |
