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Incognito
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Posted: Sunday April 8th, 2007 23:10 |
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We live in the times. There's also a lot of talk about bad parenting, absent parenting and single mothers when the reality is nuff of the parents in these situations are pikney themselves. So the question is, how old were you when you had yours?
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Incognito
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Posted: Tuesday April 10th, 2007 15:07 |
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Interesting.
Not to point a judgemental finger or anything but I know a few people who went to college for a diploma and came out with offspring instead.
Last edited on Tuesday April 10th, 2007 15:09 by Incognito
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Melissa
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Posted: Tuesday April 10th, 2007 16:53 |
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What difference does that make? 
Actually I came out with both, am I a 'bad' parent
If a 'pickney' has been well brought up nibne times out of ten so will their offspring.
You may debate that only leggobeast have children young, but you know that's not true either!
Sometimes it is older parents, not in touch with what's going on with kids today, not used to supervising their children 24/7, not informed about 'street life' etc who fall down on parenting today's children.
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Ms Price
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Posted: Tuesday April 10th, 2007 18:39 |
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Incognito wrote:
We live in the times. There's also a lot of talk about bad parenting, absent parenting and single mothers when the reality is nuff of the parents in these situations are pikney themselves. So the question is, how old were you when you had yours?
Why do people constantly attack single parent mothers? I just do not get it. I know there are SPM who are maybe not considered as good mothers, however there can be also two parent families who can raise their children in the most horrific way. My mother was a single parent mother at the age of 21, which is not young but she probably still had a lot of life to live. However I was raised with so much love, class, respect and knowledge that many adults that I know who came from two parent families do not have the relationship I have with my mother.
I think you should separate the two because bad parenting does not directly mean single parent mothers or even absent parenting, please define absent parenting. The age a woman has a child has nothing to do with SPM, common now. I get so offended when people use bad and SPM in the same sentence as I know how hard my mother has worked and all the other SPM's who raised decent people into the people 'we' are today. Please can we all just leave SPM's alone. THEY ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE BREAK DOWN IN SOCIETY…
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blessingfromgod
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Posted: Tuesday April 10th, 2007 21:05 |
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Melissa wrote:
Sometimes it is older parents, not in touch with what's going on with kids today, not used to supervising their children 24/7, not informed about 'street life' etc who fall down on parenting today's children.
So true!
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Incognito
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Posted: Tuesday April 10th, 2007 21:22 |
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Interesting.
Really wanted to see who would come out all gunz blazing on the defensive where the question really was to dispell the myth of children having children being a cause for concern.
Again I suppose it boils down to whether someone is defending their current predicament as opposed to any social moral or cultural virtue so that being said, does anyone see children having children as amoral or is this 'as long as you're a good parent' the panacea of all things maternal/paternal?
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Tahliba
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Posted: Tuesday April 10th, 2007 21:23 |
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Incognito wrote: We live in the times. There's also a lot of talk about bad parenting, absent parenting and single mothers when the reality is nuff of the parents in these situations are pikney themselves. So the question is, how old were you when you had yours?
We have been here before Incognito.
I was 17 when I gave birth to my first born, my mid 20's my second and nearly 40 when I had my last two.
And I am extremely PROUD of my first two manchilds, extremely.
I raised two perfect manchilds, grounded, honest, hardworking, respectful, kind, loving, proud, well mannered, considerate, generous.
They never got into trouble at school, or with the police. No one ever had to knock my door about them.
My oldest got married first and then had a child and it is clear that he is going to be a brilliant father. But then that was obvious by the way he behaved towards his younger siblings...everyone always said he would oneday make a great dad.
My second is settled with the same girl for 4yrs now. Infact I am particularly proud of their choice in women.
Both of them were children of the 80's But however I did it(and I'll be honest I'm not really sure) I raised two good men(out of Moss Side/Handsworth) single parent/teenage mum. Damn I am patting myself on the back.
My second oldest left home last year to go and live down south with his girlfriends family. My oldest went bolistic with him, for..."leaving mum on her own". And while out of work for 6months it was both of them that sent money regularly for me even when I refused. The second oldest as even come back home (with girlfriend intow) to help me with childcare.
I just hope and pray my last boy turns out half as good.
Single Parent or Teenage Mum It is how you raise your children that matters not what label you carry.
The biggest delinquents kids I have known have come from the so called 'normal' family background...usually religious.
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Tahliba
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Posted: Tuesday April 10th, 2007 21:29 |
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PS
Children having children is not new. Been going on from time.
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Incognito
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Posted: Tuesday April 10th, 2007 21:33 |
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Tahliba - been here before...not quite, this isn't about single parenting, bad parenting, absent parenting per se but more the reality of children having children as prophecised and the next question was going to be is it only an issue when there is no cultural or social fabric in place to accomodate it.
I haven't done any research yet neither but I find it difficult to believe worldwide most people have their children when they are old(er) to the degreewhen it was prohecised that children would be having children I wonder who the target audience was.
btw hope you're cool...it must be one of the nicest feelings to see your offspring get married.
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DSP
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Posted: Tuesday April 10th, 2007 21:38 |
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Teenagers been raising kids since Adam and Eve. Nothing new under the sun. It's only recently society been trying to force this wait till married and 35 to have your 1st child lifestyle
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Incognito
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Posted: Tuesday April 10th, 2007 21:45 |
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Tahliba - think what you mentioned about religion is very true..indeed I also believe why many people jump on the Christianity is for white people and Islam for Asians wagon - it's almost too much of a convenient excuse.
I've always been wary of our ability to shift cultural goalposts as and when it suits us but the reality is there was never any culture to begin with. We just seem to believe we are culturally blessed and aware by some magic of birthright.
I've had similar debates regarding many aspects of culture but when it comes to having sex and the repercussions of irresponsible sex al hell breaks loose. Some would say all the self defence speaks for itself.
Really didn't want to dwell on the sex or the religious side of things but equally if anyone is saying an atheist cannot relate to issues of social morality then that speaks for itself just as much.
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Incognito
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Posted: Tuesday April 10th, 2007 21:52 |
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DSP - as I said, if it has been going on since creation I'm beginning to wonder who the prophecy was aimed at. Be interesting to find out average birth age across countries, continents, religions and cultures and whether that age is a reflection of cerebral maturity, cutural stability or simply an old enough to bleed old enough to breed ethic.
Saying that, if it's just a question of sex then there's argument and probably evidence to suggest people are having sex even before puberty. But yeah, I'm feeling this vibe that this is not seen as a moral or cultural issue but then is that just amongst people who have crossed that bridge.
I hear people talking about being cultural gatekeepers and at times I wonder what it is that is being kept within these gates and why the posts holding these gates keep shifting.
Last edited on Tuesday April 10th, 2007 21:56 by Incognito
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Incognito
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Posted: Tuesday April 10th, 2007 22:42 |
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One more thing before I go to bed ...Where culture and religion are deeply ingrained then children are usually a product of marriage. I would also suggest where religion has had a negative effect then surely that too goes down to how that religion was taught so in other words just another example of bad parenting as opposed to a different source of root cause.
I mentioned people graduating as parents from college only because at the time most said that they definitely did not plan to have offspring, it was an accident yet in later life when they pull things round will say nothing was wrong with it....which could be interpreted as a shift in morality which makes you wonder what they teach their children other than if you find you do become a parent unexpectedly then take responsibility.
Was speaking to some Nigerian elders who said for the most part as soon as children reach puberty they are ready and only in the middle east (arabian territory) do you find you have to be married before you can even have sex.
So yeah, really a question of culture or morality or just like the kind of sex you have is it simply horses for courses in an ammoral cultureless society or indeed horses for courses within a moral and cultured social framework.
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Bredder Tukoma
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Posted: Wednesday April 11th, 2007 22:46 |
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Incognito wrote: We live in the times. There's also a lot of talk about bad parenting, absent parenting and single mothers when the reality is nuff of the parents in these situations are pikney themselves. So the question is, how old were you when you had yours?
I dont think its a good idea and far from ideal to have children as a teenager. Not saying its impossible but far from ideal. Definately in the UK. My main reason is as a teenager you are not mentally mature enough. What a person is interested in and what they value at 17 is diffrent from 25/ and different again from 30 years old. You have far less patience (which is a virtue when dealing with children)/ and have less experince in life full stop. From the economic point of view you are far less likely to have a few pound in your back pocket to be able to have some choice in the environment your children grow up into. Unless you have a very supportive extended family/ which these days is less likely.
So while you have to take off your hat to those that have done it / and can look back and say they did a good job/ its not something I would wish on any child of mine neither would I be happy about it. For all the above reasons.
BTW I reproduced in my own image after 25. I look at friends who had children very young (16/17) and their children are in the main good children. But it definately set the parents back.. especially as they had no skill/ neither had the option of stepping back from the working world to concentrate on studies/vocation.
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HatHaruhotep
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Posted: Wednesday April 11th, 2007 22:52 |
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| It's sad when the Black youth have children because it usually means that they are going to be living in poverty. I'm in my early 30's. No children yet.
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Incognito
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Posted: Wednesday April 11th, 2007 23:38 |
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BT - very good post. What we find in these situations is people will start comparing like with dislike i.e. good with bad so instead of saying one good parent is not as good as two good parents they say one good parent is beter than two bad parents.
Still, I think the main issue is with social maturity. I had my first child at thirty one and that was really due to my mission to make sure they did not have to grow up on Breadline Britain. The thought of having to ask the system for somewhere to house my kids would have hit my African pride for six. But if I had financial security and the support of an extended family with wise elders, I would have had children as early as I could.
Many people who had children early have had support from family (especially grandparents) and the government for example housing which of all played parts in helping these parents be the best parent they can be yet many seem to tell a story like it was them one.
When asking this question I was at odds as to whether the point of children having children was to do with age/maturity or social/financial stability and your repsonse has satisfied me that it is an age/maturity thing. But even then, is this age/maturity thing cultural or social dependent as in is it the same for England as it is for Nigeria which goes back to the question of who the prophecy of children will be having children aimed at.
Teen pregnancy is rampant in white Britain...I'm guessing it was them.....but does that imply African children having children is normal. Saw the report last year about school girls in Jamaica with their bellies...would anyone bat an eyelid at a pregnant teen on the African continent?
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Incognito
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Posted: Thursday April 12th, 2007 06:57 |
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Also must stress this is about child fathers as much as child mothers though one girl I know who was a young mother the father was much much older. In the one or two cases I know where young men were sleeping with much older women, the women were old enough and wise enough to know it was pure sex and made sure they never produced offspring from it.
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Posted: Thursday April 12th, 2007 08:05 |
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Found this article which kind of touches on more of the wider dynamics relating to children having children (that is wider dynamics as opposed to individual guilt trips about good parenting) - but even here it really is amazing how these people can start of by generalising but when they want to mention specifics they always have to mention black people. Reminds me of a show I think CH4 done on abortion with all these greys talking about their abortion dilemmas and experiences yet when they chose to film an actual abortion it just had to be a black woman didn't it .
We've mentioned financial and mental readiness but this also touches on physcical readiness which made me wonder whether one race is genetically better or ready earlier than another for child bearing. It is common thought that the African gene pool is the most complete and the least deficient so is physical readiness as muc of an issue for us than others...I mean physically we even made the best slaves...
..anywayz..
The swinging sixties left an echo that would lead to extensive research into adolescent sexuality. What adults were accepting as their rights, all too soon became during the process of socialization and imitation, what the young felt was "okay" to emulate - an exploration of the delights of unrestricted and unrestrained sexual activity. A recent newspaper report noted that most adolescents, irrespective of their culture, are sexually active before the age of twenty - even if their parents are reluctant to admit it.
The consequences have been an upsurge in the incidence of sexually transmitted diseases and in the number of unplanned and unwanted pregnancies among adolescents too young to assume the psychological and physical burden of parenthood. The medical literature of the late sixties and early seventies shows that concern and, that the medical profession was relatively unprepared for the challenge. Subsequent studies show that with appropriate medical surveillance, teenage pregnancy need be no more physiologically hazardous than it is for the older primipara (the first time pregnant). While the medical profession has coped with problems attendant upon childbearing by the very young, neither the family nor society has solved the problem of how to cope with "children having children."
How do we define "the very young" or "teenagers" or "adolescents"? In physiological terms, the definition would depend on the age of menarche. This would further depend on a definition of the time lapse between age of menarche and gestational age. Medically, the optimum time lapse between the two should be two years so as to obviate the physiological problems that could arise as a consequence of lack of physical readiness. The "punch line" is that should a girl begin to menstruate at age nine, after the age of eleven, statistically she should encounter no medical problems during her pregnancy at age eleven-and-a-half. She is thus not likely to fall prey to those problems commonly associated with "teenage pregnancy" such as gestational proteinuric hypertension, anemia, spontaneous premature labor or, run the risk of having a low birth-mass baby.
Research, however, does not fully support this contention. The pregnant teenager is "at risk," as is her unborn infant. There are serious physical and neurological problems of development associated with low birth-mass infants, and several reports show an association between early maturation and foetal growth.
Infant Mortality and Low Birth-mass Infants
Infant mortality is significantly linked to birth-mass. The lower the birth-mass, the less likely the infant is to survive, and there is an undisputed tendency for teenagers (and younger teenagers in particular) to give birth to low birth-mass infants.
Infants weighing less than 2,500 grams are more at risk for neurological and other developmental deficiencies (including cerebral palsy. Their nursing care also presents more problems for medical personnel, their young and inexperienced mothers, her family, and the state. The latter has to provide the services for their survival.
Maternal Mortality
It is in the developing countries that teenage pregnancy has become a primary cause for concern as a result of its contribution to higher maternal mortality rates. It is in these countries where industrialization and Westernization have led to the adoption by adolescents of the practices of their Western counterparts, that the price has been highest. School drop-out, illegal abortion, medical problems such as vaginal or rectal fistula resulting in social ostracism, child neglect and child abandonment, are but some of the problems referred to.
SOCIAL CONSEQUENCES OF TEENAGE PREGNANCY
The most salient social consequences of teenage pregnancy are: school drop-out or interrupted education; vulnerability to or participation in criminal activity; abortion; social ostracism; child neglect and abandonment; school adjustment difficulties for their children; rape, abuse, and incest; adoption; lack of social security; poverty; repeat pregnancies before age 20; and negative effects on "domestic life."
School drop-out or interrupted education. We found, in our 1991 study of 145 pregnant black teenagers under the age of 18, that in about 50% of cases the teenager is unlikely to return to school. This finding corroborates other research findings in Africa and the United States. There is lack of provision at schools to facilitate resumption of her education, and if she does so, she is forced to leave her baby at home and discontinue breast feeding which may affect mother-child bonding.
Last edited on Thursday April 12th, 2007 08:12 by Incognito
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Incognito
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Posted: Thursday April 12th, 2007 09:25 |
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Also found this perspective interesteing...
To some extent, concerns about the negative effects of teenage pregnancy are validated - yet, it is obvious that prejudice has influenced researchers and the questions they ask.
Looking through the smoke screen, we can see that alternative accounts of teenage pregnancy are also present. These accounts avoid assuming that pregnant girls are of necessity in all kinds of trouble. Instead, they highlight the social context in which teen pregnancy occurs and is accepted or not accepted, coped with or not coped with.
When you look at the issue from that point of view, the similarities that teenage mothers have to mothers of any age are more obvious - with the proviso that the very young mother, if she wants to keep her baby and raise it with love, stands in even more need of support, appreciation and acceptance. The low level of social welfare, adult education and employment in South Africa have as much or more to do with the difficulties a teenager faces, than immaturity or inexperience.
Link to full article...
http://health.iafrica.com/psychonline/articles/teenpregconsequences.htm
Last edited on Thursday April 12th, 2007 09:25 by Incognito
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Bredder Tukoma
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Posted: Friday April 13th, 2007 16:49 |
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Incognito
Dont know about South Africa but I do know in Kenya walking around Nairobi and Mombasa I saw virtually no teenage mothers. I even posed the question to one woman who said its still very shameful and taboo to have a child young. Single mothers yes but very few of teenage years. That view might be diffrent in rural as opposed to city life.
When asking this question I was at odds as to whether the point of children having children was to do with age/maturity or social/financial stability and your repsonse has satisfied me that it is an age/maturity thing. But even then, is this age/maturity thing cultural or social dependent as in is it the same for England as it is for Nigeria which goes back to the question of who the prophecy of children will be having children aimed at.
Well I would say its fact that many teenagers from Africa or the Caribbean have more responsibility naturally as teenagers/ which breeds maturity. But still a teenager is a teenager in my view. In JA there was recently a case of a woman and her man being prosecuted in St Elizabeth for apparently giving up their child to an older dutty bungle who was living with her in his shack. A 12 year old at that. In rural India it may of been perfectly acceptable. I known of a few tramps who touching 30 have got teenagers pregnant/ but as you say it could be culturally biased because child brides are common within many so called religious communities. Islam and Hinduism is expecially know for teenage brides/ who are encouraged to be married to older men. Being socialised among Africans in the west I still maintain its not desirable. Alot depends on when is a young girl a woman and on what criteria do you base that on? I dont think any culture expects and sanctions its 'legal age' children to have children.
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