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submission
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Posted: Sunday February 11th, 2007 14:33 |
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When you look at me
all you can see
Is the scarf that covers my hair
My word you can't hear
Because you're too full of fear,
Mouth gaping, all you do is stare.
You think it's not my own choice,
In your own "liberation" you rejoice.
You're so thankful that you're not me.
think I'm uneducated,
Trapped, oppressed and subjugated.
You're so thankful that you are free.
But Western women you've got it wrong-
You're the weak and i'm the strong,
For I've rejected the trap of man.
Fancy clothes- low neck, short skirt,
These are devices for pain and hurt,
Always jumping to the male agenda,
Competing on his terms.
No job share, no baby-sitting facilities,
No feeding and diaper-changing amenities.
No equal pay for equal skill-
Your job they can always fill.
Is this liberation?
A person with ideas and thought,
I'm not for sale, I can't be bought.
I won't decorate anyone's arm,
Nor be promoted for my charm.
There's more to me than playing coy.
Living life as a balancing game- mother,
Daughter, wife, nurse, cleaner, cook, lover-
And still bring home a wage.
Who thought up this modern "freedom"
Where man can love'em and man can leave 'em.
This is not free but life in a cage.
Western women you can have your life.
Mine- it has less strife.
I cover and I get respected
Surely that's to be expected-
For I won't demean the feminine
I won't live to a male criterion.
I dance to my own tune,
And I hope you see this very soon,
For your own sake- wake up and use your sight!
Are you so sure that you are right?
For a Muslim woman who wears the hijaab, she is judged by her mind and
her deeds only...not by how sexy she looks, how much cleavage she's showing
and how much make up she's wearing. when a man looks at her, he looks into
her eyes and his focus is on what she says and the way she thinks and not
anything else. that is freedom.
Last edited on Sunday February 11th, 2007 14:39 by submission
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RasRuben
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Posted: Monday February 12th, 2007 12:22 |
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I understand your stance on this issue and I have had many conversations with Muslim women (when i was younger) about this very same thing. I know as well as everyone else that men need to learn to keep their eyes on a woman's eyes when they speak but have you ever looked at it this way.
Western people (some) see that you wish to be respected for you mind and your words and that is admirable. However is it freedom to conceal yourself to reach this end. You were created with all of these parts, for this reason they were meant to be seen. However western society has overly sexualised the human body to a point where unless your clothes are extremely baggy, no matter how much is covered westernised men get excited. Is this problem not with westernised men and not with women. I for one can look at an national geographic and not see anything sexual about a naked body for the simple reason that I understand that the human body was not meant to be taken as a sexual object continuously. However some westernised men will get their jollys off by looking at the same national geographic. It is about societal perception of the female body by men, that is where the problem arises. I simply see it as no woman should have to cover themselves up because of the follies of males because males are the reason why they took off so much of their clothes in the first place (showing a lot of skin etc).
Some of us do not see it as a burden forced upon you. I for one see it as a measure that is not necessary. While women have to cover up to be respected, men get to watch after as many other women as they like, still overly sexualising the female body.
The same thing happens for westernised women and their perception of men (which is why many men are now gaining pathologies such as anorexia and bullimia nervosa) but that is a conversation for another thread.
Just wanted to make it clear that it's not all Western inhabitants that see the Hijab in that way.
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submission
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Posted: Monday February 12th, 2007 13:37 |
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The same thing happens for westernised women and their perception of men (which is why many men are now gaining pathologies such as anorexia and bullimia nervosa) but that is a conversation for another thread.
i understand your point and i do knw that not all western women see us muslim women like this but. when ever muslim women are talked about the word oppressed!! IS always mentioned..
Everybody focuses to Muslim women worldwide as oppressed, more specifically the Muslim Women of Afghanistan.
The media shows us how oppressed the Muslim women are there and people start linking three words in their minds: ‘Islam,’ ‘women’ and ‘oppression.’ Therefore, they think that Islam commands oppressing women.
People often fail to distinguish between culture and religion, two things that are completely different. In fact, Islam condemns oppression of any kind whether it is towards a woman or in general.
Now, the Qur'an is the sacred book by which Muslims live. This book was revealed 14 centuries ago to a man named Muhammad who would later become the Prophet. Fourteen centuries have passed and this book has not been changed since, not one letter has been altered.
In surah number 33, entitled Al-Ahzab (Arabic for 'The Clans'), on verse 59, it says: “O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw cloaks all over their bodies. That will be better as they shall be known (as free respectable women) and will not be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most-Merciful.� This verse shows that Islam makes wearing a Hijab necessary, Hijab is the word used for covering, not only the headscarves (as some people may think) but also wearing loose clothes that are not too bright.
Sometimes, people see covered Muslim women and they think oppression. This is wrong. A Muslim woman is not oppressed, but she is liberated. This is because she is no longer valued for something material such as her good looks or the shape of her body. She compels others to judge her for her intelligence, kindness, honesty and personality. Therefore, people judge her for who she actually is.
Women cover their hair to be modest. When they wear loose clothes, they are trying to be modest. In fact, nuns cover their hair out of modesty. Also, when we see frequent pictures of the Virgin Mary, she is covering her hair out of modesty. Therefore, Muslim women are doing the exact same thing as righteous Christian women.
The lives of the people who accepted the Qur'an changed drastically. It had a tremendous impact on so many people, especially women. It was the first time openly declared that the souls of men and women are equal. They would be bestowed the same obligation as well as the same rewards.
In addition to being equal to men, women get economic independence. The money they bring into marriage is theirs as well as the money they earn. A woman is allowed in Islam to choose their own husbands and in extreme cases, divorce. A woman has the right to be educated, contrary to what the contemporary world might think. The responsibility is of the person who is raising her.
Now picture this: Fourteen hundred years ago Islam allowed women to vote for a leader. It was recently, in 1925, Canadian women became allowed to vote. Worst, in Quebec, the law became final in 1940. Muslim women got rights before Western women got any.
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RasRuben
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Posted: Monday February 12th, 2007 14:22 |
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I understand and agree with everything you have said. It is liberating. i just think it shouldn't have to happen.
Picture this. 6-8000 years ago, African women could walk the street in any way shape or form they pleased and be respected. They had the right to education and often were he highest officials in Africans societies. Many African societies were matriarchal including in their religious practices, down to their inheritance being recieved through the matrilinial line. It is not inconcievable that a naked woman and a naked man could stand in each others presence and have nothing sexual going on, not even a sexualised glance at body parts because it has happened and still happens to this day.
All I was trying to say is there is something wrong with a society that raises men to look at women in that way in the first place so we could liv without women having to cover up to be free. They could be free of all things and be free. Maybe i'm just being idealistic. Just some thoughts.
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The Watcher
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Posted: Monday February 12th, 2007 16:20 |
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Question
If I wore a wig and make up to look white or hid away under a sheet, so nobody could see my black skin would that be an example of me being liberated and valued for my mind on equal terms?
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Mandalore
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Posted: Monday February 12th, 2007 21:12 |
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submission wrote:
People often fail to distinguish between culture and religion, two things that are completely different. In fact, Islam condemns oppression of any kind whether it is towards a woman or in general.
People also fail to distinguish between two different societies. People in the West don't take kindly to people that cover their faces and want to be taken seriously. How hard is it for some people to understand? If a muslim woman knocked on my door and I started speaking to them through the letter box hole, would they be offended?
submission wrote:
Now, the Qur'an is the sacred book by which Muslims live. This book was revealed 14 centuries ago to a man named Muhammad who would later become the Prophet. Fourteen centuries have passed and this book has not been changed since, not one letter has been altered.
Whats your point? Does this mean that it can't be contested?
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submission
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Posted: Monday February 12th, 2007 21:37 |
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The Watcher wrote: Question
If I wore a wig and make up to look white or hid away under a sheet, so nobody could see my black skin would that be an example of me being liberated and valued for my mind on equal terms?
WELL WHAT ARE U REPRSENTING? IN DOING THAT,
WHEN MUSLIM WOMEN COVER UP THEY DONT ONLY COVER UP TO BE VALED FOR THEIR OWN MIND. THEIR COVER UP TO REPRSENT ISLAM.. WHEN U LOOK AT HER YOU KNOW SHE IS A MUSLIM NO MATTER WHERE SHE MAY COME FROM OR WHAT COLOUR HER SKIN IS... SHES SAYING YES I AM A MUSLIM WOMEN..
dress is not just a matter of covering the head alone, but also of covering the bosom, which is attractive to men, and of lowering the gaze and walking in a way that does not attract attention. Note that the order to lower the gaze was addressed first to men…
You can also read the other verse about the same point, which is verse number 59 in Surah 33. It may be translated:
*{O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them [when they go abroad]. That will be better, that so they may be recognized and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.}*
This indicates that one of the reasons for hijab is to distinguish the believing woman from the non-believing. This relates to SO WHATS THE logic behind hijab.
Ask yourself, or ask the next person who asks you that question, if a female judge walked into the courtroom wearing a tight miniskirt and low-cut blouse, would you take her seriously? Who would you respect more, a woman dressed like that or one dressed modestly? The Qur’an was revealed for all times, and though circumstances change, human nature does not. The fact is that men do like to look at women’s bodies, so a woman who covers herself is more likely to be respected as a person than looked upon as a piece of meat!
Up until the end of the nineteenth century, a Western woman who had any self respect covered her head—though perhaps not all her hair—in public. Your audience may argue that a woman who does not cover her hair is no longer looked upon as a loose woman. That may be true, but women still know that men look at them. Otherwise, why would they spend millions of dollars every year to style, color, and treat their hair?
It is true that men don’t have to cover their heads, but there is a dress code for them, as well, although it is not so widely publicized as the women’s dress code. Men must at least be covered from the navel to the knees with loose fitting clothing. The rules for men are different because women are less likely to ogle men than the other way around. ... AND WE ALL KNOW THIS IS TRUE
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submission
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Posted: Monday February 12th, 2007 21:54 |
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Mandalore wrote: submission wrote:
People often fail to distinguish between culture and religion, two things that are completely different. In fact, Islam condemns oppression of any kind whether it is towards a woman or in general.
People also fail to distinguish between two different societies. People in the West don't take kindly to people that cover their faces and want to be taken seriously. How hard is it for some people to understand? If a muslim woman knocked on my door and I started speaking to them through the letter box hole, would they be offended?
well i can understand what you are saying but personally i dont WEAR the veil and i do not cover my face... the only thing i cover is my hair.. those that want to cover their faces then thats up to them,, and personally i think they should be left alone to do what they like... LETTER BOX?? NOW YOU JUST CHATTING OUT OF UR ASS!!!
Last edited on Monday February 12th, 2007 21:58 by submission
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Mandalore
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Posted: Monday February 12th, 2007 23:44 |
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submission wrote:
People also fail to distinguish between two different societies. People in the West don't take kindly to people that cover their faces and want to be taken seriously. How hard is it for some people to understand? If a muslim woman knocked on my door and I started speaking to them through the letter box hole, would they be offended?
well i can understand what you are saying but personally i dont WEAR the veil and i do not cover my face... the only thing i cover is my hair.. those that want to cover their faces then thats up to them,, and personally i think they should be left alone to do what they like... LETTER BOX?? NOW YOU JUST CHATTING OUT OF UR ASS!!!
You've been talking out of your arse since you started this thread. If you didn't understand the question, I'd advise you read it again.
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submission
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Posted: Tuesday February 13th, 2007 14:02 |
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| AVE READ WHAT YOU HAVE SAID,. BUT I STILL DONT UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU SAYING,. IF YOU TRYING TO COMPARE HOW MUSLIM WOMEN DRESS TO CHATTING OUT OF A LETTER BOX.. THEN YOU CHATTING AIR..
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submission
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Posted: Tuesday February 13th, 2007 21:33 |
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They stand there with shorts, so short, excessively short,
shorts that so deceptively capture from them all they know
of modesty...
...and I proudly pull my scarf over my hair
They stand there, face lost in a sea of make-up,
make-up that so ruthlessly captures from them all they know
of freedom...
...and I proudly pull my scarf over my hair
They stand there, hair raining with gels, colors -
chemicals that so menacingly capture from them all they know
of purity...
...and I proudly pull my scarf over my hair
They stand there, so close, so very close to their "lover",
devoted to them, the devotion that so mercilessly captures
from them all they know of individuality...
...and I proudly pull my scarf over my hair
And they stand there, talking of getting new shorts, new gels
and colors, new boyfriends, materialistic things
that so wrongfully capture from them all they know
of God and love...
...and I proudly pull my scarf over my hair
For my scarf is my protector, my lover, my devotion,
my pureness, my beauty, my rememberance of God,
And I proudly pull it over my hair knowing that when I wear it,
I so rightfully thrust away all the things that the devil
brought about,
And when I put it on, I am
Free...
Attachment: 106053yrj64nsgfw.jpg (Downloaded 216 times)
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comfortandjoy
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Posted: Wednesday February 14th, 2007 20:17 |
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Submission, some women do not have a great mind, and never will have, no matter how hard they try. Given the choice, some of these women will choose to be judged on their bodies and their faces rather than their mind - simply because they see their physical appearance as being more worthy of admiration than their mind. A great mind or a great body - both are god given, both are worthy of admiration in my eyes. In this society, a beautiful face and body get help you to attain the things in life you desire, more quickly than those not blessed with these god-given gifts.
Some women have both great minds and great bodies/faces. For some of these women, they wish to be admired for all their assets - both physical and mental. Others blessed with both only wish to be judged for their minds.
For some women, there is an awareness that physically they fall far short of what is considered 'beautiful' or 'desirable' in many cultures. Those women may have been blessed with a great mind and they will be grateful that they can gain accolades for this. It's those women who have neither brains nor beauty who I most feel for.
I'm of the opinion that any woman that has chosen to wear hijab should be free from harassment or judgement, based on her decision to do so. I know that plenty of women wear it - not because they are forced to - but because they wish to cover themselves and I respect their right to do so. It's not reasonable for me to believe it's always oppressive. If that woman has chosen to do it - then of course it is an expression of her freedom to choose.
I also respect the right of those who wish to expose themselves, in low cut tops or short skirts. I don't think covering yourself makes you a better person in any way to someone who chooses not to wear the hijab. I don't respect a person in a hijab just because they wear one, you could be the most evil, or the most stupid person in the world - I will not know that just by observing your dress. A woman who does not choose to cover herself can still gain respect and admiration so although you choose to cover, do not assume that those who don't will not be capable of commanding respect from others, whether male or female.
On the one hand you seem upset that people judge muslim women who wear hijab on the fact that they do so, but on the other you seem quite judgemental of western women who choose not to cover up. Same as how you do not want to be dictated to or judged on your attire, and how you choose to present yourself - please try not to do that same thing to others who do not share your cultural/religious views. Too many problems in this world are caused by people wishing to enforce their own views or way of life on others. Each to their own.
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Thursday February 15th, 2007 16:56 |
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After the Arab/Asiatic/Semitic destruction of Black Civilization in West Asia and Africa, how many Female Regents existed in the history of the West Asian region in antiquity?...particularly when the women were forced to wrap themselves up...how much liberty was there truly?
I can give you at least three female regents, or queens, in African history...
Queen Amina Sarauniya of Hausaland...
Queen Tiye of Kemet...
Queen Nzinga of Angola...
Queen Eti (w/ husband Perehu) of Punt...
...and there are many more that could be named. Is that number even comparably high in the Arab civilizations that you adore so much? Interesting how much freedom, liberation, prosperity women have in a society when they can dress freely as long as it is within good taste...
Wooden statue of ancient Nile Valley woman...
Last edited on Thursday February 15th, 2007 16:57 by Shemsi en Tehuti
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Kibibi
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Posted: Thursday February 15th, 2007 17:30 |
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I have no problems with the hijab, wear it if you want to wear it or don't wear it if you don't want to wear it.
What makes this whole debate interesting is that men seem to be central to both arguments. Both sides argue how they are free and they have choice and yet both sides accuse the other of bowing down to men. Western women dress a certain way to attract men and the way Western women dress influence how men think about them/treat them. Muslim women are covering up so that men seen don't see them in one way, but are seen in another way.
Men, men, men! Doesn't sound very ''free'' to me.
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RasRuben
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Posted: Thursday February 15th, 2007 18:52 |
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Kibibi wrote: I have no problems with the hijab, wear it if you want to wear it or don't wear it if you don't want to wear it.
What makes this whole debate interesting is that men seem to be central to both arguments. Both sides argue how they are free and they have choice and yet both sides accuse the other of bowing down to men. Western women dress a certain way to attract men and the way Western women dress influence how men think about them/treat them. Muslim women are covering up so that men seen don't see them in one way, but are seen in another way.
Men, men, men! Doesn't sound very ''free'' to me.
That is what I was trying to say. Men are central to the way women percieve themselves in modern societies and that is the problem. I don't think covering up or wearing too little is the problem nor is it the solution. Modern male attitudes towards the female body are what is wrong here and that needs to change because otherwise women will continue to behave in a reactionary fashion towards mens attitudes, they will either cover up so that they are not ogled by men, or they will dress loosely to get men, either way it's about men and it tells you what the problem is instantly.
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comfortandjoy
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Posted: Thursday February 15th, 2007 19:24 |
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I'm not sure that all (or even most) Western women dress for men. I believe most women dress to make themselves feel good about their appearance. Because this can sometimes mean enhancing physical attributes and playing down less appealing features, it can look as if women are wearing certain things in order to attract and/or please men.
With young women in particular, there is often a need to get attention (from everyone, not just males) and flaunt newly gained curves while said curves are still a novelty and still at their best; but a lot of how young women dress is also simply an attempt to fit in with their peers. Sometimes this will mean they even make themselves unappealing to men.
A lot of women's high fashion trends are laughed at and ridiculed by men - but it doesn't stop women wearing them or other women admiring them in those trends. This doesn't mean there are NOT women who do dress exclusively or primarily for the purpose of impressing/attracting men, just that I'm not sure it is as common as is often suggested. I think it's also important to mention that most western women (with sense) dress differently for different occasions. What may be appropriate wear for a nightclub or the beach, may not be suitable for a wedding; what might be fine for a quick trip to the shops or lazing around the house - may not be appropriate for an interview or for wearing to work in an office environment.
Similarly, I would need to be convinced that some of the women who do wear hijab do not have other reasons for doing so beyond the claim that they do not want to arouse men, or because they feel it is they only way they can dress that will be modest enough to satisfy the teachings of Islam. I would hazard a guess that the sheer convenience of not having to think about what to wear has something to do with the decision for more than a few muslim women who choose the hijab.
Although I don't expect there would be many willing to admit it. 
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RasRuben
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Posted: Thursday February 15th, 2007 19:44 |
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comfortandjoy wrote: I'm not sure that all (or even most) Western women dress for men. I believe most women dress to make themselves feel good about their appearance. Because this can sometimes mean enhancing physical attributes and playing down less appealing features, it can look as if women are wearing certain things in order to attract and/or please men.
You have to think of it in terms of who determines the fashion of women, who says what is in this season and for the most part, how do women determine to themselves when they are not sure, if they are actually beautiful. They do so by drawing attraction from men. It is the same for men. Only when a man first attracts females or recieves comments about their good looks do they know they are good looking in western society. From then on a man will make himself feel good by making himself look good to males. It is well known that self esteem is built upon reactions from outside stimuli, mainly looks from the opposite sex. This is the case which is why fashion made by men to make women "look good" is fed to women as the way to look good and they end up dressing for men. Reaction by men will solidify what a female dictates is good taste in clothes and is hence, the reason why they dress as they do. Do you know how many women have taken me shopping so they could have a male "opinion".
With young women in particular, there is often a need to get attention (from everyone, not just males) and flaunt newly gained curves while said curves are still a novelty and still at their best; but a lot of how young women dress is also simply an attempt to fit in with their peers. Sometimes this will mean they even make themselves unappealing to men.
Yes sometimes women will make themselves unappealing to men of a certain group so say a goth wouldn't look good to a mainstream male. However that goth women would look good to a male of her same group so gothic males will be attracted to her and more than likely he will be what she is attracted to. That is a subculture issue and often when women make themselves look unattractive to one group, they look attractive to the subculture that they are a part of. And one must also look at the reasons why a woman would wish to fit in with their peers before dismissing the notion that it is because of men because often women do just try to fit in, and that is because they know those they are fitting in with have what they don't, usually men chasing after them.
A lot of women's high fashion trends are laughed at and ridiculed by men - but it doesn't stop women wearing them or other women admiring them in those trends. This doesn't mean there are NOT women who do dress exclusively or primarily for the purpose of impressing/attracting men, just that I'm not sure it is as common as is often suggested. I think it's also important to mention that most western women (with sense) dress differently for different occasions. What may be appropriate wear for a nightclub or the beach, may not be suitable for a wedding; what might be fine for a quick trip to the shops or lazing around the house - may not be appropriate for an interview or for wearing to work in an office environment. You have to understand that whatever the occasion, there is someone who thinks just like you. When you wear a tracksuit around the house or for a quick trip to the shop, that is often what you call house clothes (inna-my-yards) and they are not what are considered good clothes. When a woman is at the office there is also a man who is at the office, both of whom may not be wearing the clothes style that they usually wear or like o wear because it is not appropriate. What should be discussed here is clothes where there are no social constraints. When you are just out with friends, how do you dress. When in the presence of men how do you dress. It's not about how you dress at the shop or at work because such places have societal constrictions on what you should and should not wear including weddings, funerals etc. I am talking about what is worn when there are no societal constraints, when you have full choice and that often depends on peer group. Peer pressure is an integral part in what men people find attractive and see as attractive in themselves.
Similarly, I would need to be convinced that some of the women who do wear hijab do not have other reasons for doing so beyond the claim that they do not want to arouse men, or because they feel it is they only way they can dress that will be modest enough to satisfy the teachings of Islam. I would hazard a guess that the sheer convenience of not having to think about what to wear has something to do with the decision for more than a few muslim women who choose the hijab.
Although I don't expect there would be many willing to admit it.
I agree with this last paragraph but my guess is that it simply is something that nobody outside of the muslim female community will learn about. There may be many other reasons as to why women have decided to wear the Hijab but as you said, I doubt anyone would be willing to admit it if there is and so it becomes an unfalsifyable assumption. No need to discuss it.
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Thursday February 15th, 2007 19:51 |
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Kibibi wrote: I have no problems with the hijab, wear it if you want to wear it or don't wear it if you don't want to wear it.
What makes this whole debate interesting is that men seem to be central to both arguments. Both sides argue how they are free and they have choice and yet both sides accuse the other of bowing down to men. Western women dress a certain way to attract men and the way Western women dress influence how men think about them/treat them. Muslim women are covering up so that men seen don't see them in one way, but are seen in another way.
Men, men, men! Doesn't sound very ''free'' to me.
I don't want to get too philosophical, but without the essence of a woman there would be no concept of "man", and the same applies vice versa for the essence of a man. Duality is simply a law of the Universe down to the basic particles. The same can be applied to men...did men typically assume the role of "bread winner" to assert control/authority over the relationship with his partner (with a woman), or is it to appear as responsible and providing (for the woman). In this case as well, the woman is central to both arguments. This is why I stay away from the women who are too independent and those who are too dependent. Most of the things men and women do in life have something to do with the opposite sex.
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Posted: Thursday February 15th, 2007 19:55 |
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RasRuben wrote: That is what I was trying to say. Men are central to the way women percieve themselves in modern societies and that is the problem. I don't think covering up or wearing too little is the problem nor is it the solution. Modern male attitudes towards the female body are what is wrong here and that needs to change because otherwise women will continue to behave in a reactionary fashion towards mens attitudes, they will either cover up so that they are not ogled by men, or they will dress loosely to get men, either way it's about men and it tells you what the problem is instantly.
Let's be real here. If it became a cultural norm or even a fad interest of women to see men with their faces wrapped up, you will see at least half of all man with his face wrapped up. Men are just as reactionary to women as they are to us.
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