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mike pain
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Posted: Tuesday April 24th, 2007 22:25 |
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....i'm posting this question as a result of something that i read in todays guardian news paper. the article talked about the rise of security barriers as a an increasing first choice to solve newly arisen social demographic problems....'blacks' have always been part of europes history, often ignored and sidelined, from sizeable minorities post colonial era to todays largely migrant communities living literally on the outskirts of some of europes most prominent cities....but today blacks are at a bit of a cross roads.
the situation for blacks in europe varies widely, from afro-caribs in britain occupying a position of quasi-acceptance, integration and eventually ( some time in the distant future) total assimiliation; To the blacks in italy, where, in the city of Padua, a WALL has bee erceted around the black district. locals say the area is a magnet for prostitutes.
Britain largely remains the only e.u. country to adopt and follow equal oppurtunities policies directed at blacks....( frances policies and record on equal oppurtunities [if any] are about 25 years out of date)
but with an e.u. that will (eventually) harmonise it's governing policies, will blacks all over europe be regarded and accepted as third class or even fourth class citizens? and disregarded as not true ' Europeans'....and if not how can we change this....can we?
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Posted: Wednesday April 25th, 2007 07:49 |
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The same as now...a government statistic.
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Apedemak
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Posted: Wednesday April 25th, 2007 10:13 |
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Guess this is a ''Pan African'' question.
A bit tough talking about what position us Africans will have in europes future with the mentioned barriers in place.
The situation for blacks in europe varies widely, from afro-caribs in britain occupying a position of quasi-acceptance, integration and eventually (some time in the distant future) total assimiliation.
Then we'll have no position. We'll be like the African Americans with a mostly christian burgeouis middle class in some areas and poverty in others. Fact is if we can't work together to set up central industries, Banks, Schools and so on to better ourselves we won't get anywhere, at the moment our position seems to be to keep the lower rungs warm for other immigrants to step up on. Eastern europeans/Asians selling us Black African fasion, HMV/Apple selling us music and so on. When we snap out of it and become self determinate with the help of people like Toyin and co our position wouldn't be one in europes future, we'll be fixing up our homelands which means stifling their economy, demanding fair trade (diamonds, oil and everything), getting a decent education to people on the continent / the dispora and so on and so forth.
So the question is contradictory... Unless we can bring a wave of hippie like socialism to the europeans and change the capitalist drive for cheaper goods and labour you can't talk of an oppressed peoples place in the land of their oppressor at all, the larger our economy in europe the more tax we pay toward their capitalist machine, the more cars we'd buy and so on and so forth.
Europe up - Africa down.
but with an e.u. that will (eventually) harmonise it's governing policies
Italy, France and so on are already part of the E.U and the English won't join without a fight, nice new £20 notes or not, they're too arrogant and proud. In fact the E.U is probably going to piss off more europeans than anything, probably keep Britian as some kind of Vatican or Texas like state or something .lol. The E.U isn't good and neither is the european intrest in Africom...theres our position. Unlike the Americans we can't own (and defend) land outright in Europe, can't cuss their gun laws when you understand that they can lawfully defend themselves against the state if need be. If we could then we could go about setting up bastillion in europe starting with Brixton, we've lost Tottenham to the Turks and Kurds.
Things would need to change when we find our place.
Last edited on Wednesday April 25th, 2007 10:37 by Apedemak
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Finethings
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Posted: Wednesday April 25th, 2007 10:41 |
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Apedemak wrote:
Guess this is a ''Pan African'' question.
A bit tough talking about what position us Africans will have in europes future with the mentioned barriers in place.
The situation for blacks in europe varies widely, from afro-caribs in britain occupying a position of quasi-acceptance, integration and eventually (some time in the distant future) total assimiliation.
Then we'll have no position. We'll be like the African Americans with a mostly christian burgeouis middle class in some areas and poverty in others. Fact is if we can't work together to set up central industries, Banks, Schools and so on to better ourselves we won't get anywhere, at the moment our position seems to be to keep the lower rungs warm for other immigrants to step up on. Eastern europeans/Asians selling us Black African fasion, HMV/Apple selling us music and so on. When we snap out of it and become self determinate with the help of people like Toyin and co our position wouldn't be one in europes future, we'll be fixing up our homelands which means stifling their economy, demanding fair trade (diamonds, oil and everything), getting a decent education to people on the continent / the dispora and so on and so forth.
So the question is contradictory... Unless we can bring a wave of hippie like socialism to the europeans and change the capitalist drive for cheaper goods and labour you can't talk of an oppressed peoples place in the land of their oppressor at all, the larger our economy in europe the more tax we pay toward their capitalist machine, the more cars we'd buy and so on and so forth.
Europe up - Africa down.
but with an e.u. that will (eventually) harmonise it's governing policies
Italy, France and so on are already part of the E.U and the English won't join without a fight, nice new £20 notes or not, they're too arrogant and proud. In fact the E.U is probably going to piss off more europeans than anything, probably keep Britian as some kind of Vatican or Texas like state or something .lol. The E.U isn't good and neither is the european intrest in Africom...theres our position. Unlike the Americans we can't own (and defend) land outright in Europe, can't cuss their gun laws when you understand that they can lawfully defend themselves against the state if need be. If we could then we could go about setting up bastillion in europe starting with Brixton, we've lost Tottenham to the Turks and Kurds.
Things would need to change when we find our place.
Britain Joined the EU in the 1970s, but has resisted the common monetary policy for a long time, this is why we dont have the Euro, however twenty pound notes that resemble the Euro.
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Apedemak
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Posted: Wednesday April 25th, 2007 12:31 |
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They're trying to creep it in, ''we'' still don't comply with some of, ''their'' rules and regulations either.
Its not all harmonized as Mike Pain mentioned. Wrote a paper on England/Britian joining the E.U and its effect on our/their relationship with America. Fully formed the E.U has a larger population and has the potential to be just as powerful as America when/if the pound merges with the euro it will or should make it that much stronger against the dollar as well. What we'd then have would be several super states forming through out the world... several as in China and the E.U. India is also an up and coming power.
It won't be about our place in the E.U in my opinion it'll be about our place with those hungry states looking for more resources, labour and materials.
We have no place here, I mean if they're planning on issuing E.U passports to europeans with ancestors in Europe from South Africa to Austrailia and so on now what will or does that mean for us as Africans and everyone else?
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,1273065,00.html
http://www.eurograduate.com/showarticle.php?article_id_show=58&name=
Will my family in Jamaica be eligible for a passport as they have us as ancestors in Europe? Granted its not until 2011/2014 but what effect will it have on our communties when those eastern block citizens are allowed full mobility throughout europe? They'll be favored for work having passports and eligibility... God that sounds like an age old cry but it diffrent this time round. So far we're consigned to barber shops hiding from immigrant officials. They're giving their distant cousins a leg up on the ladder, a free rung to start climbing with to help each E.U state/country develop.
Not sure where our place will be amidst all that. Not to be all depressive and stuff, this is a debate, hopefully someone else has something to say. Last edited on Wednesday April 25th, 2007 12:53 by Apedemak
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stick-upKid
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Posted: Wednesday April 25th, 2007 17:24 |
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The problem affecting us is flight. It used to be called 'white' flight; now its just flight.
The upwardly mobile, educated will get good jobs and move out of black neighborhoods, into the 'burbs, where they'll melt away in a couple of generations like a snowflake in the desert.
If we can stop the foolishness -- the no snitching culture; the lazy parenting, we may just be able to stop the mass exodus and create decent black neighborhoods, where wealthy black people actually want to live.
Without wealthy black people living with other wealthty black people you have too much race mixing. And this means that the next generation of wealthy black people are actually mixed race.
This will mean that the darker you are equals the the poorer you are.
Yes people, history will repeat itself. Just like in South America, etc......
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mike pain
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Posted: Wednesday April 25th, 2007 17:45 |
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apedemak, the thing with African americans is that they have a very long history, parallel with the white americans. whenever a signifcant event has happened within white america, black america has almost always been effcted and whites have felt this resonance back on some level....
....europe is different. africans, or even dark skinned people as a sizeable and visible group, have only really been registered in the minds and collective consciousnesses of many whites in the last couple of decades. due to huge levels of economic migrants coming from africa and settling in countries hitherto unkown for ethnically diverse groups; the attitudes towards them is less than welcoming.....
...like you i'm very depressed about the future....
look at the french riots and compare them with the riots in britain ( brixton, toxteth, etc 25 years ago...)
will each european city with sizeable groups of blacks go through similar Baptisms and so called race riots ? how will that effect the mindsets of europeans, towards us, the most visible of groups?
.........the truth of the matter is that we will almost certainly occupy a position at the bottom of the ladder, with tokens put up to act as pan european 'puppet' black leaders....lets face it, most blacks that are here will almost certainly stay in europe....
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Wednesday April 25th, 2007 19:14 |
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| Perhaps it is just the Pan-Africanist in me talking, but I am still trying to grasp why Africans are worried about their "position" in European society as opposed our collective Diasporic and Continental African communities. Last edited on Thursday April 26th, 2007 18:56 by Shemsi en Tehuti
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Apedemak
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Posted: Thursday April 26th, 2007 16:13 |
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ST; Why Africans are worried about their "position" in European society as opposed our collective Diasporic and Continental African communities?
=
MP: Europe is different. africans, or even dark skinned people as a sizeable and visible group, have only really been registered in the minds and collective consciousnesses of many whites in the last couple of decades. due to huge levels of economic migrants coming from africa and settling in countries hitherto unkown for ethnically diverse groups.
We've only been here for 50 years (not counting the previous visitors), we are still very much rooted in our homelands be it on the continent or the carib for the most part. The few that aren't rooted end up washing out.
Pretty sure most Carib families are like mine and have family members who've either retired or are still living back a' yard. Most Africans here in England have their communities also. Guess most immigrants in France would be from the Ivory Coast or French speaking ex-colonies as they already speak creole.
As M.P mentioned we don't have a shared history with the europeans and don't particually want one so many of us aren't quick to take up the banner in calling ourselves, ''British'' or ''Afro-European'' (.lol.) as it means nothing, our culture is ours. Mike Pain is looking toward the future when we start calling ourselves ''British'' and ''Afro-European'' which would mean us having seperated ourselves from our homelands, establishing some kind of shared cultural identity in europe. Over here a Turk is a turk, an Indian is an Indian etc etc... theres no shared identity at all.
I'd fully support a back to Africa program when/if we start settling down in Europe making enough money to do for self we'd be a direct threat to their establishments as said.... the money wouldn't circulate round their economies enough.
Will be intresting when Toyin runs for local elections, if thats what Ligali are doing. We should take south london, we were the majority up here in north but the Turkish have taken over in Harringey. Last edited on Thursday April 26th, 2007 16:26 by Apedemak
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mike pain
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Posted: Friday April 27th, 2007 17:11 |
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Shemsi en Tehuti wrote: Perhaps it is just the Pan-Africanist in me talking, but I am still trying to grasp why Africans are worried about their "position" in European society as opposed our collective Diasporic and Continental African communitiy
however much i like to think of my self as an 'african' i've grown up within a european society, my first language is a european one, i wear european clothes, my thought processes and ideals are primarily based on that my european teachers have taught me ( however much i may read up on african modes of thought, african writers etcc).....
europe, is my base of operations....
America is yours. europe doesn't have a civil rights group(s) that focuses on soley black issues. if an african american is assaulted on the streets and it's caught on video every body from the most powerful man in america, to the most obscure talk show will talk about it.various levels of government will seem sympathetic towards that episode. if a black guy is assaulted on the streets of spain, it's called using reasonable force on an immigrant or the son of an immigrant. .....if a black neighbourhood in the south of the u.s. is devastated by a hurricane the entire world will focus on the plight of those black people...if a neighbourhood full of blacks in italy are treated like the jews of a polish ghetto just before the nazis exterminated them, no one bats an eye lid.....
you can't think about pan africanism if your thinking about rascists wanting to deport you from your country of birth
and shemsi, i don't understand where your question is coming from, do you want me not to care about my position in society...do you and did the other AA civil rights activists not care about theirs within america 
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Apedemak
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Posted: Friday April 27th, 2007 18:11 |
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Sometimes, because of those things you mentioned, the African-Americans are asked to take others into consideration.
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Friday April 27th, 2007 20:58 |
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mike pain wrote: europe, is my base of operations....
America is yours. europe doesn't have a civil rights group(s) that focuses on soley black issues. if an african american is assaulted on the streets and it's caught on video every body from the most powerful man in america, to the most obscure talk show will talk about it.various levels of government will seem sympathetic towards that episode. if a black guy is assaulted on the streets of spain, it's called using reasonable force on an immigrant or the son of an immigrant. .....if a black neighbourhood in the south of the u.s. is devastated by a hurricane the entire world will focus on the plight of those black people...if a neighbourhood full of blacks in italy are treated like the jews of a polish ghetto just before the nazis exterminated them, no one bats an eye lid.....
you can't think about pan africanism if your thinking about rascists wanting to deport you from your country of birth
and shemsi, i don't understand where your question is coming from, do you want me not to care about my position in society...do you and did the other AA civil rights activists not care about theirs within america
Brother, you are mistaking my position. I am not saying not to care about your position in society, but just not to care too the point where you just become an economic animal that only serves the interests of your host countries. That was the problem with the American Civil Rights movement lead by MLK and the Integrationists. Many people like Marcus Garvey and Malcolm X saw the fundamental flaw in this line of thinking. We should have been more concerned about getting what's right for ourselves instead of how to "fit in". Now, we are suffereing for it here in America 50 years later. I just think that if you really wanted to in the UK, you guys could create your own reality. You just need to employ each other, and make your own industries to support your own. The rest will follow.
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Friday April 27th, 2007 20:59 |
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Apedemak wrote:
Sometimes, because of those things you mentioned, the African-Americans are asked to take others into consideration.
 ...that is exactly what happens. Africans in America are always expected to take up for other peoples whether gay, Latino, Arab, or who ever, but when Katrina happens, everyone is twiddling their thumbs while our people drown in infested waters.
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mike pain
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Posted: Monday April 30th, 2007 17:57 |
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the civil rights movement that produced both mLK and MX started from a mode of thought, a type of consciousness that connected every AA. essentially the thought was that we are or can be greater than what others percieve us as...to have that collective consciousness with in europe, there needs to be first a strong foundation established here, one based on socioeconomic stability within host countries. all the good will in the world won't help a black person in britain travel to meet a black person in west germany and feed him on the journey....
....keep in mind that in america a common langauge is taken for granted, in europe several languages are spoken by the black diaspora ( ...the tower of babel springs to mind).
within britain many 'blacks' still see themselves as nationals of their parents respective countries....so in effect you'll have jamaicans rubbing up against nigerians, and camaroonians rubbing up against kenyans....
(think about the recent arrivals of ethiopeans in the united states.)
...sadly i think that it will take many, many,many generations of blacks before a common consciousness developes between the european black diaspora....
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Dada
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Posted: Tuesday May 1st, 2007 18:48 |
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The experience of African Diasporians in Europe differs markedly due to the old colonial ties, that North American Africans do not have.
These ties, along with the dual cultural differences mean that little unity exists among African Diasporians in a pan european context. That duality is the connection with the Motherland Country say; Togo, Angola, Martinque etc, and Franch, Portgueuges culture. Divided further by the regional nationalities (aka tribal ties).
Then if you throw into the pot, African migration outside of former colonial ties, and the differences among us are vast. Ironically, Europe or rather the European Union within it's own dynamic , inherently built in, only truly recognizes various interest groups if they represent a Pan European perspective, and that would include African Diasporians.
This needs to be overcome, to enable African Diasporians to be able to effectively lobby European Union decisions that affect AC countries, i.e to be able to lobby not only from a National perspective (i.e Nigerian trade) but a Pan African perspective also with a European regional representation.
European Directives have great clout and can often circumvent National legistrative laws, all this crap about subsidarity doe'snt really hold well. Decisions made in Brussels have greater weight as they are supranational in implementation.
Without a collective voice, African diasporians within Europe will be acted upon rather than assist in shaping an inclusive Europe. An example of that is the Senengaon (spelling) Agreement that britain is exempt from, the net result is it is harder to travel within Europe if one has a visa for the U.k entry only.
Also with a collective voice we could monitor and assit in decisions that affect our respective motherlands.
Last edited on Tuesday May 1st, 2007 18:50 by Dada
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Posted: Tuesday May 1st, 2007 21:16 |
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Shemsi en Tehuti wrote: Apedemak wrote:
Sometimes, because of those things you mentioned, the African-Americans are asked to take others into consideration.
...that is exactly what happens. Africans in America are always expected to take up for other peoples whether gay, Latino, Arab, or who ever, but when Katrina happens, everyone is twiddling their thumbs while our people drown in infested waters.
Same here is UK. When there is an Indian desaster in India and they have a fund raiser, they always try to embarrass the black race into giving some cash by showing some black dude getting involved and some idiot in the back ground saying "Everyone should get involve" but when an event happen to black peeps, no matter where in the world, they all run and hide with an attitude like 'let them sort their own problems out'
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Posted: Wednesday May 2nd, 2007 17:24 |
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Well, once the concentration camps are built....
um
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ant
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Posted: Saturday June 2nd, 2007 18:54 |
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Shemsi en Tehuti wrote: mike pain wrote: europe, is my base of operations....
America is yours. europe doesn't have a civil rights group(s) that focuses on soley black issues. if an african american is assaulted on the streets and it's caught on video every body from the most powerful man in america, to the most obscure talk show will talk about it.various levels of government will seem sympathetic towards that episode. if a black guy is assaulted on the streets of spain, it's called using reasonable force on an immigrant or the son of an immigrant. .....if a black neighbourhood in the south of the u.s. is devastated by a hurricane the entire world will focus on the plight of those black people...if a neighbourhood full of blacks in italy are treated like the jews of a polish ghetto just before the nazis exterminated them, no one bats an eye lid.....
you can't think about pan africanism if your thinking about rascists wanting to deport you from your country of birth
and shemsi, i don't understand where your question is coming from, do you want me not to care about my position in society...do you and did the other AA civil rights activists not care about theirs within america
Brother, you are mistaking my position. I am not saying not to care about your position in society, but just not to care too the point where you just become an economic animal that only serves the interests of your host countries. That was the problem with the American Civil Rights movement lead by MLK and the Integrationists. Many people like Marcus Garvey and Malcolm X saw the fundamental flaw in this line of thinking. We should have been more concerned about getting what's right for ourselves instead of how to "fit in". Now, we are suffereing for it here in America 50 years later. I just think that if you really wanted to in the UK, you guys could create your own reality. You just need to employ each other, and make your own industries to support your own. The rest will follow.
-------
Yes, this is wisdom, I really agree with this Shemsi. Western nations or capitalist nations are like blood sucking leeches that drain the talent and resources of other nations through any means to keep their own economic, military, and cultural superiority rolling on and on. If we continue to buy into the economic system that we live in we are only feeding it, and prolonging a system that sees us through imperialist eyes.
One can always try to avoid paying into the system, but that isn't something I would agree with, that kind of action only gives fuel to those who try to insinuate that black people are not trying to integrate. I think one can integrate into western society, but realise that perhaps a more long term goal is to find a permanent way out of this society, using our present condition to gain what we need for a sustainable transition to Africa.
What would happen if the majority of black people had stable families, paid their mortgages and so had property, and then decided to up and leave to some part of Africa, either selling or renting their properties, all done legally in a way to maximase the capital in black hands, and to use the skills of black people productively in the lands in Africa where they would choose to settle.
I think that there does need to be some kind of organisation that looks at the opportunites for development of African nations, regarding how the skills and capital of Diasporans could be used to help Continental Africa to prosper, and how Diasporans who desire to, could be helped to make a safe transition from their present countries back to lands in Africa.
This is one of those situations where maybe actions speak louder than words, because we can intellectualise about why whites think they are superior, why economic, military and cultural imperialism exists, we can try to say what we feel should be done about these things, but can we really envisage a change in this society where all are really considered equal? Racism and exploitation may not be as blatant as in the days of the slave trade, but still yet - denial of opportunity, negative social engineering, and denying self determination is destroying black people.
Last edited on Sunday June 3rd, 2007 05:31 by ant
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