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girlfromthenc
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Posted: Tuesday March 27th, 2007 18:38 |
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I've ALWAYS believed that Africans themselves held a very VITAL role in assisting 12 million people leave the continent.
Years ago I was scanning a book about the African continent and the Kingdoms present BEFORE present day time and the slave trade. It estimated that between 1300-1500 Africans made up around 25% of the world's population, which is about 1/4. I don't know if this estimate included peoples in the Arabic penisula or not. But anyway its always struck me ass odd how Europeans who had just been ravaged by the Black plague and were grossly underpopulated could start FORCIBLY enslaving people from one of the most densily populated parts of the world.
Heck when Portugal started the Euroean slave trade they only had around 1 million people.
I find African history very similar to Native American history with the many DISTINCT ethnic groups with their own language, culture, and CHEIFS. And just like NA I think its a more reasonable explanation to assume that the people of Africa (PRIOR to contact with whites) had ZERO concept of black vs. White people and black unity towards all Black african people. A seperate tribe/ethnic group was probably like a seperate race to them. And selling some else's "people" would have probably been just as EASY FOR THEM as it would have been for Europeans!
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Dada
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Posted: Tuesday March 27th, 2007 19:09 |
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So far this forum has been free of personal attacks. It would be great if we could simply respect peoples opinion and put ones own arguement in ones own post. Bicker free.
I think its a more reasonable explanation to assume that the people of Africa (PRIOR to contact with whites) had ZERO concept of black vs. White people and black unity towards all Black african people. A seperate tribe/ethnic group was probably like a seperate race to them. And selling some else's "people" would have probably been just as EASY FOR THEM as it would have been for Europeans!
That's the point.
Now show me the thread on how the effect of slavery and how we can remedy this.
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Incognito
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Posted: Tuesday March 27th, 2007 19:30 |
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girlfromthenc - I share that view of yours which Dada has highlighted in that I don't believe africa was a united framework but I will also say I don't believe they were disunited either. There was no concept of having to unite to live in harmony so equally other than human greed there must have been no concept of having to be at war to survive.
If there was natural division by means of human nature then this was simply exploited. The agenda of the enslavers was not dictated, determined or constructed from the discovery of African internal conflict, this was just another tool used to achieve their end game.
So, the crime of slavery was that end game of slavery, not the tools used to achieve it or the end game of those that sold it. The crime is the bank robbery, not the gun used to hold up the bank...though bring up a charge of posession of a firearm if it strengthens your case for conviction....the crime is the rape not the fact that the victim was intoxicated and was wearing no knickers.
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Dada
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Posted: Tuesday March 27th, 2007 22:39 |
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If there was natural division by means of human nature then this was simply exploited. The agenda of the enslavers was not dictated, determined or constructed from the discovery of African internal conflict, this was just another tool used to achieve their end game.
incognito:
Yes I think that was the case.
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Incognito
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Posted: Tuesday March 27th, 2007 22:54 |
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Dada - regarding that end game, relate it to being charged with posession and being charged with posession with intent....the latter is a far more serious crime than the former.
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Dada
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Posted: Tuesday March 27th, 2007 23:33 |
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Yes the context of Europan Slavery is altogether different from the African model.
Although the both had the use of Bondaged: whereby to pay a debt one would place themselves or their childern to work for the creditor until the debt were paid off.
But let's move this on further.
I for one do not know about how it came that Sugar was produced only in the West Indies or Cotton. If ,as the King of Dahomey so rightly obversed, the situation had of existed whereby the African themselves cultivated and exported the finished product of Sugar and Cotton then the whole issue of the use of Labour to that end would have ended the slave trade. If the African's themselves could have produced these products.
That unfortunately is the same sh*t that is happening today. Whereby Africa has the resources but not the means or corporate governance to utilize and export in a processed manner.
The Human capital once again is drained from Africa, and once more for trinkets when in reality the work should be there on the ground in Africa.
Likewise, I state again, the bridges between the New World need to be crossed. Today the Caribbean and Africa bearly acknowledge the other and respect each other less than they do a European.
So finally once more:
How about promoting 23rd of August as a Day off work in Commomeration of our Ancestors? or is that another forum topic
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AmeriJamCan
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Posted: Wednesday March 28th, 2007 01:36 |
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Kunjufu wrote: I also think there is a serious case of some people (not you Dada or you Incognito) of reviewing that period with 21st century eyes.....I actually heard a BLACK person the radio state that AFRICANS knew what happened to their brothers and sisters once they wer sold to the Europeans... the pertinent question that this muppet should have been asked but wasn't is HOW, would they have known?
Wow. What a weak argument. Africans were brutalized before they were placed on the ships to be brought to the "New World". The Africans engaging in the slave trade by selling their own people would have seen Africans being brutalized in the slave ports in Africa. This is well documented. 50% of African slaves didn't even make it out of the West African slave ports alive. Many died in the forts built to hold them. Again, this is well documented. So claiming that African sellers did not know what was happening to those they sold is INTERESTING TO SAY THE LEAST. Even conscientious Africans admit that Africans played a role in the slave trade. I just heard a famous Nigerian author stating this on BBC. This is nothing new or shocking.
Whites have brutalized everyone, including their own, so they have a lot to answer for given their disgusting behavior, even to this day. But Africans cannot wash their hands of the role they played in the slave trade.
Last edited on Wednesday March 28th, 2007 01:40 by AmeriJamCan
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Incognito
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Posted: Wednesday March 28th, 2007 04:23 |
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Dada wrote: That unfortunately is the same sh*t that is happening today. Whereby Africa has the resources but not the means or corporate governance to utilize and export in a processed manner.
Dada - true ting. I watched one of those shows with Bob Geldof doing his thing in Agfrica last year and he mentioned this very point. Think he was talking about cocoa where he explained if cultivated and exported in its raw bean form there's no problem, but if the natives were to process it and export it in its final form they get hit with these western trade taxes that make it a valueless exercise. So nothing has really changed, cotton picking slavery just the same.
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Dada
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Posted: Wednesday March 28th, 2007 22:52 |
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Hmmm, It's Zombie hours again and the BBC is showing it's seminal Series Racism a History.
As pointed out tonights programme seems to back up what I mentioned in regards to the Christian "Faith" and it's damaging effects on Africans.
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Bredder Tukoma
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Posted: Wednesday March 28th, 2007 23:42 |
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I wonder if the indigenous Americans or those of the Caribbean were complicit in their downfall as well. To me the argument is a redundant one. There were many Jews during the era of the Holocaust that sold out their fellow Jew. But somehow Africans are supposed to be immune from this human trait of choosing survival over total anilihation as someone put it. Were there not Indian leaders who were willing vassals of the British empire. Were not Chinese merchants compliant with the Europeans during the opium wars. During the biggest insurrection to affect slavery itself.. (The Haitian revolution) did not Europeans sell out each other/ kill each other and allow themselves to be played against one another to their detriment. After all Haiti was the most lucrative slave island by far.
The continent was weak from internal wars at the time of the European coming. Much the same as Europe/China/ the Americas or any of the continental masses throughout history. African chiefs should apologise to what end? Have any of the African slave trading states financially benefited from slavery as the Europeans have and still do? Were not traders themselves sold into slavery (As Queen Nzinga did to the African traders she captured). How far do we apologise to ourselves? Did the French in the last world war demand apologies from their leaders who were very complicit in allowing the Germans to run roughshod over their land.
By the same token then African leaders/ Chiefs/tribes should apologise to their current and fellow citizens for impoverishing the continent. For putting whole communities and states on permanent alert from kidnap. And traumatising communities into a slave trading frenzy fuelled by war and arms. Why do those who call for Africans to apologise not extend their argument to apoligies for continental Africans for their current state. Was not Tacky an African chief? Bring him back from the dead would Tacky reason that his fellow Chiefs were at the source of their misery. Or would he not as a chief have realised the precarious situations of all Africans in the island prisons. As a walk around any plantation at the time would have thrown up a variety of former occupations and social status. From former Kings to Master Physicians. Chiefs and agricultural peasants/ and warriors who may have helped captured others into slavery in their past?
Dont make no sense.
As an aside many have often called for a post treaty Maroon apology within Jamaica (including myself) which is interesting considering the Marroon were also fighting for survival and against total annihilation. Tacky himself was killed by a Maroon on behalf of the British government. Why is it different? Well for me the Maroons came from the same situation in which they were willing to send other Africans back into. Very few had come straight of the ships and into a free life in the hills. The historical memory of their genesis and their constant raiding of the plantations for personel must of involved some form of psycological treatment as well as medical treatment for the person fresh from the plantations.The average continental African was far less intimate with the ravages of slavery. As bad as the marches to the coast and the dungeons were.. nothing could of prepared their minds for the middle passage and the plantation horrors. In fact I doubt if any Africans were knowledgeble about what the future had in store for them. Equino certainly wasnt. Neither were the fellow Africans on his ship.
Last edited on Thursday March 29th, 2007 00:07 by Bredder Tukoma
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Thursday March 29th, 2007 13:37 |
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One important question people never ask is if the Europeans were truly only on the coasts, then how could they possibly know the terrain well enough to divide up the Continent during the Berlin Conference of 1885 to colonize nearly every nation?
How could they enforce these boundaries of the countries if they did not have a colonial military presence long before which divided some tribes into different "countries" and pitted tribes who were enemies together?
How did King Leopold enslave and cause the death of perhaps an incalculable number of Africans in the Congo without a colonial military presence already established in the region?
Can someone tell me how the land-locked colonies, or countries completely surrounded by land, were able to be colonized without penetrating the interior of Africa without an ongoing military presence? Just take a look at an African map...how could the countries of Niger, Botswana, Chad, Uganda, Rhodesia (Zambia & Zimbabwe), Central African Republic, and Mali all get enslaved and colonized without Europeans having to penetrate the continent?
Then there is this talk about the diseases in the Continent preventing Europeans from penetrating the interior, which is just nonsense. A little thing like disease has never stopped the European from his conquests. There was disease in the Americas too, but he exterminated all the natives to usurp their lands. They penetrated India, China, West Asian countries, and other places in the world as well. Yet, we are supposed to believe that Africa is such a disease-infested place (for the European imune system) that they waited on their boats at the shores...again, straight horse-poo. This logic even furthers shows its neurotic nature considering Whites moved in droves to South Africa and even live in the same African nations enslaved & colonized that supposedly would kill too many Europeans with malaria and other disease.
If you want to know about the organized military responses of Africans against Europeans, then try getting this out-of-print book West African Resistance: The Military Response to Colonial Occupation by Michael Crowder. However, who was really in control when Europeans had the guns? People tend to not do reality checks these days.
Lastly, I have cited this letter a couple times on the forum here, but here is an excerpt of a letter that King Affonso of the Congo wrote to King Joao of Portugal in 1526:
"Each day the traders are kidnapping our people - children of this country, sons of our nobles and vassals, even people of our family. [King Affonso's nephews and grandchildren were kidnapped while travelling to Portugal for religious education, but was sent to Brazil in slavery]...This corruption and depravity are so widespread that our land is entirely depopulated...It is our wish that this Kingdom not be a place for the trade or transport of slaves."
King Joao smugly replied with the follow letter:
"You...tell me that you want no slave-trading in your domains, because this trade is depopulating your country...The Portuguese there, on the contrary, tell me how vast the Congo is, and how it is so thickly populated that it seems as if no slave has ever left."
Of course, the Portuguese or other Europeans never stopped kidnapping Africans. This is just one of the countless examples where it was not a trade, but massive military-backed campaign with total disregard for African lives.
So here we have the most vivid examples of even the families of African kings who were not safe from the clutches of Europeans who obviously were operating in the African interior to acquire slaves. The examples most often given of purported "complicity" are nothing but a front for it to appear as a trade. Africans all over West and Central Africa are documented to have fought long hard wars against Europeans while the so called "trade" was going on.
Here is another question, why would each African nation need to "trade" with someone they were at war with?
Last edited on Thursday March 29th, 2007 13:44 by Shemsi en Tehuti
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Apedemak
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Posted: Thursday March 29th, 2007 15:31 |
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Intresting.
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Russengo
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Posted: Thursday March 29th, 2007 15:33 |
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Breadfruit wrote: Russengo wrote: I was watching that Ms Dynamite documentary about the maroons in jamaicans and I just couldn't take it no more; The only mention Africa had as in "Africa the land and continental africans" was just Dynamitee-hee saying that most black british people are ashamed to publicly claim that they come from africa. Most "black british" people are first or second generation Africans straight from the continent, and their numbers are growing. Does that worry you Brother? i am not worried my friend and I said at the end I like to think in "differences not in identities", I know there are black british with continental parents, and there are african-americans and west-indians who have a very good education about Africa asa whole and as a continent of hundreds of countries, tribes,thousands of languages, different cultures, different colouring of the skin and the list goes on and that is my point. So why do you call yourselves africans. so my Africa is not your Africa is it? Oh! let me see the only Africa you want is the only one that can restore your stolen identity and the self-love that the white man broke when he changed your names from Bakari n'dikite to Philipp Armstrong, who in their right head would like to see the Africa I grew up in? So Africans born in Diaspora are too simple to understand what the realities are in that mass continent of 50+ countries, but a nationalist like yourself has been gifted with this great profound continental wide insight? First of all, I never said diasporans are "too simple" and yes! I am not ashamed to say it I learned a great deal about my continent, its history, its people, its pre-colonial and colonial past, but also I lived through the troubles of the Great lake region in Central-East Africa which helped by experiences why the tutsis and hutus killed each other, what colonialism has to with it, what the politicians have to do with, so basically yes, I lived 22 years of my life there, saw the Congo go down, Burundi and Rwanda go through war, I know a great deal more about Africa than many diasporans, whether you read books the white man wrote about it or not, I lived the experiences. no one wants to be remotly related to those kids in Ethiopia, no one wants to be remotly related to those hutus and tutsis from Rwanda and Burundi, no one is from the same people as those street kids from Kampala in Uganda, and the list goes on. Africa for you is South-Africa because you can see yourselves in their struggle, Africa for you is Nigeria and Ghana, Sierra leone because that's the african west coast were the majority of your ancestors came from. Africans in Diaspora live in diverse nations, some with African majorities, some surrounded by whites or Asians. Some of us have live roots on the continent, some distant. Africa also has diversity. African nations living side by side have major differences, which are often highlighted in conflicts; nevermind nations thousands of miles from each other. Your apparent claim to be more African than the Diaspora, through some empathy, without much evidence is weak. I am feeling you are making presumptions about me, about me trying to feel more african or owning the right to the continent but I don't. You have to understand where I am coming from, if I came to your house or your area and claimed to belong there, if you can see yourself in me that wouldn't be a problem, it can only be a problem when you come and try to define me,deny some history thatI am proud of by generalisations that came out of ignorance; you would correct me and stand your ground. Do you know why I am writing this it's because the diasporan blacks are more heard and respected than the continental ones, why? because the same contempt and pity that W.E.B DUBOIS talked about you suffered when slaved, It sounds like you writing this out of anger. An anger based on divisons caused by slavery and colonialism. You need to be more progressive. Such mentality is historic and used by our enemies as a function of their control over our peoples lives. again, I do not see all white people as my enemy, if enemy there is he is within me; you are correct I used to be very angry, angry because I realised that what colonialism did to me hurt the very core of my being, my enemy is that the white man( the colonialist) through belgian education,through my parents glamourising anything french or belgian since my earliest memories, through my teachers forbiding me to speak "kirundi" at school but french, through my given french name, etc,...there is a saying in kirundi Uwuja gukira indwara arayirata:"you can only be cured of an illness if you acknowledge the illness". I did that. My point here is contempt and pity of africans is still a reality and I still experience it whether you believe it or not; some diasporans who were born here and grew up here still hold beliefs they learned from what the white man taught them we were, and the west will only take seriously somebody who share their system and way of life; it doen't mean that I am self-pitying but the reality is THE WEST STILL RULES THE WORLD and Africa needs the west as well as its people. we still suffer it and when you speak for "Africa" I expect to feel included because I am african but no my "Africa is not your Africa". How many of you have visited Africa or intend to? You need to start a survey!! Or better still, help support projects that help Diasporians to visit their ancestral homeland. That's not my business, if you feel like you want to get to your roots and where you come from, you don't need me, how many minutes will take you to book a fight from Detroit to Miami? or a holiday in the Bahamas? if you really want and value something you 'll do it. how many of sponsor an african child? There are African children in abundance in Diaspora, with parents sponsoring them daily; as well as helping their familes back in the Americas or on the continent. This is a profound source of income to our home nations. Let me tell you my friend I do not own the right to the african name, let me say it again but if you start to talk about people and tribal cultures or pre-colonial history in Africa by generalising and saying this and that I will tell you from my point of you and experience where you are wrong and if you think I am being big-headed again book a flight and go and learn more from you being there in person, and seeing things by meeting different people and individuals and oral history,etc,... The funny thing is that when I have discussion with diasporans some of them expect me to feel their anger and pain of what my supposed ancestors did to theirs, no I don't because you can only imagine what you have experienced. Soo how African are you then, Who do you think suffered Transatlantic enslavement, Martians?? I can sympathisize but I do not need to feel any guilt on the behalf of my ancestors because when you talk about ancestors, which ancestors are you talking about really? that's my question. I grew up in Africa I had a complete different childhood to yours, different experience, I only discovered what the white man thinks of me 7 years ago; So you've never heard of the Maafa or Berlin Conference while growing back on the continent? Do you think this may be why you hold such negative views on The Diaspora? Hearing,reading,listening,feeling,experiencing are different things, I grew up in a country ruled by blacks,my teachers were blacks,my friends were blacks,95% of the population is black, How could you on earth ask anybody to imagine or feel the pain of american slaves, any epic holliwood movie that deals with people's experience can be insightful to the human psyche and what he's capable of but that's about it; I did watch "Roots". Au contraire it's about time diasporans dealt with the legacy of slavery, and acknowledge the damage it did, stop playing the blame game and self-indulging in it, my personnal truth is different to your personnal truth. oh! and about ancestors; on the 1st of July each year when we celebrate our independence from the belgians, the president of Burundi reminds everybody to be proud of what MWEZI GISABO our king did. He chased the arab slave masters from Burundi after years of war and did it, they fire arms, my people had spears, do you know one thing he was africans, so when you say that africans sold their own, you are wrong. Next time try to think in differences not in identities. There are reactionaries both on the continent and in Diaspora. Africans who are progressive and backward self-hating koons. Those who emphasise Africans selling Africans, over the rape of our people and continent, are often like you. Limiting the African experience to their own nationalistic flag waving experience; an experience created to suck the life out of African people, everywhere on the planet. Pan Africanism is antithetical to any ideology which denies the development of Africa's political, economic and human resources. Development based on common African interest. I was talking about Mwezi Gisabo as an example "chill out!"
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Incognito
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Posted: Thursday March 29th, 2007 16:14 |
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BT - you know what I'm saying man, the argument is redundant we just need to make sure we can prove it is.
If you don't know any better, people will have you believe that a might intelligent people capable of sailing the seven seas and living completely civilised lives back home in England enslaved Africans due to some warped interpretation of the bible about the descendants of Ham.
Strategicaly nothing has changed today. The west still have their puppets installed selling out their own black people now. Even nationally, so called African representatives are not defending our cause in fear of loosing their salaries and their livelihoods - what's the difference between these people selling us out politically and those who sold their own into slavery - nothing, both will tell you they have no real choice.
The dimension may have changed but the concept and the mind behind the concept is exactly the same today as it was back then i.e. white people using their brains in their attempt to pull the wool over our eyes.
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Dada
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Posted: Thursday March 29th, 2007 16:36 |
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During the early part and towards the latter part of the 19th Century many "Explorers" visited Africa and to be fair often they were young Adventurers looking to understand the Continent and scientific study.
These Men, would live and learn African Nations political systems and even record their Language breaking it down into the written word using Latin phonentics and grammar constructs.
The knowledged learned was often handed back to European Centres and used against the African Nations.
Features like the tracing of the Nile or the Congo are well written and the likes of Stanley and Livingstone, Mungo Park etc are well featured even a Czech person.
In respect to diseases on the African Continent many are still prevelant today, Smallpox, Malaria and the like. Anyone who has lived in Africa will know what I mean about people dying young and fast even today.
It is well documented about the dangers for Europeans living before 1850's and after. Well the reverse is true for the Americans who encountered the Europeans bring the Flu virus etc.
@Russengo
I feel you, in my opinion on Blacknet:
1. there are those who have lived and breathed Africa
2. Those who have lived and still chose to live in the West and "Know" Africa and the Africans from the books they've read and people they have meet in the West but have never set foot in Africa.
3. Same as above but with a desire to understand and learn rather than a chavinistic trait.
4. Same as No 2 & 3 but have been to Africa a few times , even lived there for a time.
5. Same as No2 But rather than listern and learn would rather "Tell" Africans about their Culture and "History" from a "Pan African Perspective" who don't want to learn Sh*t from the horse mouth, curiously they hold a British Passport.
I would reccommend not to try and reason with somebody who already knows what there is to know about Africa and the Africans. A waste of Dialogue. Rather inform the rest of us what your own experiences are.
As seen at Cape Coast Castle
Last edited on Thursday March 29th, 2007 16:48 by Dada
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Breadfruit
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Posted: Thursday March 29th, 2007 17:38 |
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Russengo wrote: Breadfruit wrote: Russengo wrote: I was watching that Ms Dynamite documentary about the maroons in jamaicans and I just couldn't take it no more; The only mention Africa had as in "Africa the land and continental africans" was just Dynamitee-hee saying that most black british people are ashamed to publicly claim that they come from africa. Most "black british" people are first or second generation Africans straight from the continent, and their numbers are growing. Does that worry you Brother? i am not worried my friend and I said at the end I like to think in "differences not in identities", I know there are black british with continental parents, and there are african-americans and west-indians who have a very good education about Africa asa whole and as a continent of hundreds of countries, tribes,thousands of languages, different cultures, different colouring of the skin and the list goes on and that is my point. I have no idea what you mean comparing "differences" to "identities", can you be specific? These people you mention above are also Africans, that's where their historical genesis, as a people began. First of all, I never said diasporans are "too simple" and yes! I am not ashamed to say it I learned a great deal about my continent, its history, its people, its pre-colonial and colonial past, but also I lived through the troubles of the Great lake region in Central-East Africa which helped by experiences why the tutsis and hutus killed each other, what colonialism has to with it, what the politicians have to do with, so basically yes, I lived 22 years of my life there, saw the Congo go down, Burundi and Rwanda go through war, I know a great deal more about Africa than many diasporans, whether you read books the white man wrote about it or not, I lived the experiences. Brother, a knowlege of central Africa, makes for no monopoly over the African experience!! I was born in Diaspora and travelled , all over the Continent, over many years. I've lived in the Americas. I spent time in the Caribbean and learnt more about African history, from African there, than I did in Africa. Reading books by Africans from throughout the African world, also helped me understand what Pan Africanism , in it's most fundamental sense, really means. You, are the one who read books by whites, hence your prior ignorance about them. Have you ever lived in the Americas (African dominated nations in particular) , that you feel soo confident to know how cultured Africans have or not remained, after centuries of enslavement and so-called freedom? no one wants to be remotly related to those kids in Ethiopia, no one wants to be remotly related to those hutus and tutsis from Rwanda and Burundi, no one is from the same people as those street kids from Kampala in Uganda, and the list goes on. Africa for you is South-Africa because you can see yourselves in their struggle, Africa for you is Nigeria and Ghana, Sierra leone because that's the african west coast were the majority of your ancestors came from. Africans in Diaspora live in diverse nations, some with African majorities, some surrounded by whites or Asians. Some of us have live roots on the continent, some distant. Africa also has diversity. African nations living side by side have major differences, which are often highlighted in conflicts; nevermind nations thousands of miles from each other. Your apparent claim to be more African than the Diaspora, through some empathy, without much evidence is weak. I am feeling you are making presumptions about me, about me trying to feel more african or owning the right to the continent but I don't. You have to understand where I am coming from, if I came to your house or your area and claimed to belong there, if you can see yourself in me that wouldn't be a problem, it can only be a problem when you come and try to define me,deny some history thatI am proud of by generalisations that came out of ignorance; you would correct me and stand your ground. Listen, you don't have the exclusive right to call yourself African, so being continental born, gives you no more right than a kid born in New Orleans to claim the identity of their ancestors. Africans in Diaspora, like Africans everywhere else, will define their own reality. Africans who have sold out to European power, on the continent, do not speak for the continetal African mass. Likewise, there is no one political African view on life and reality in Diaspora. But Africans define themselves and reality regardless. Whether Black, Negro, African, American, Jamaican, St Lucian etc ; They are example of political identities and let people know where you stand. Your race, culture and history are far less arbitrary, in that the children of Africans, 500 years ago, are still African today. Do you know why I am writing this it's because the diasporan blacks are more heard and respected than the continental ones, why? because the same contempt and pity that W.E.B DUBOIS talked about you suffered when slaved, It sounds like you writing this out of anger. An anger based on divisons caused by slavery and colonialism. You need to be more progressive. Such mentality is historic and used by our enemies as a function of their control over our peoples lives. again, I do not see all white people as my enemy, if enemy there is he is within me; you are correct I used to be very angry, angry because I realised that what colonialism did to me hurt the very core of my being, my enemy is that the white man( the colonialist) through belgian education,through my parents glamourising anything french or belgian since my earliest memories, through my teachers forbiding me to speak "kirundi" at school but french, through my given french name, etc,...there is a saying in kirundiUwuja gukira indwara arayirata:"you can only be cured of an illness if you acknowledge the illness". I did that. My point here is contempt and pity of africans is still a reality and I still experience it whether you believe it or not; some diasporans who were born here and grew up here still hold beliefs they learned from what the white man taught them we were, and the west will only take seriously somebody who share their system and way of life; it doen't mean that I am self-pitying but the reality is THE WEST STILL RULES THE WORLD and Africa needs the west as well as its people. I agree with your analysis. We will find ignorance, throughout the African world. These contraditions though are something we either accept, ignore or struggle against. I have choosen to do the latter. This was the way of Lumumba. The way of Nkrumah. The way of Steve Biko, the life or Marcus Garvey. Great Africans who we all honor. Honoring our ancestors is African culture. Honoring the ignorant, is not. They are defeated in struggle. we still suffer it and when you speak for "Africa" I expect to feel included because I am african but no my "Africa is not your Africa". How many of you have visited Africa or intend to? You need to start a survey!! Or better still, help support projects that help Diasporians to visit their ancestral homeland. That's not my business, if you feel like you want to get to your roots and where you come from, you don't need me, how many minutes will take you to book a fight from Detroit to Miami? or a holiday in the Bahamas? if you really want and value something you 'll do it. I know my roots, that's not a problem. The problem, just like in Africa, is that many Africans have become Euro-centered and self hating. I assume you reside in the Diaspora. Africans have conflicts of various sorts with other Africans here. If you encourage ignorance through your own inactivity, when possible solutions are available, if those contradictions ever explode in your face, remember you said it had nothing to do with you. Africans always come together in Diaspora; that's our history. how many of sponsor an african child? There are African children in abundance in Diaspora, with parents sponsoring them daily; as well as helping their familes back in the Americas or on the continent. This is a profound source of income to our home nations. Let me tell you my friend I do not own the right to the african name, let me say it again but if you start to talk about people and tribal cultures or pre-colonial history in Africa by generalising and saying this and that I will tell you from my point of you and experience where you are wrong and if you think I am being big-headed again book a flight and go and learn more from you being there in person, and seeing things by meeting different people and individuals and oral history,etc,... Everyone has the right to a viewpoint, but if someone is more informed than them, this will become self-evident. You are welcome to contribute your wisdom. The funny thing is that when I have discussion with diasporans some of them expect me to feel their anger and pain of what my supposed ancestors did to theirs, no I don't because you can only imagine what you have experienced. Soo how African are you then, Who do you think suffered Transatlantic enslavement, Martians?? I can sympathisize but I do not need to feel any guilt on the behalf of my ancestors because when you talk about ancestors, which ancestors are you talking about really? that's my question. Millions of our African Ancestors, from all over the Continent, including Central Africa; but you are right, you shouldn't feel guilty, that's foolishness. I grew up in Africa I had a complete different childhood to yours, different experience, I only discovered what the white man thinks of me 7 years ago; So you've never heard of the Maafa or Berlin Conference while growing back on the continent? Do you think this may be why you hold such negative views on The Diaspora? Hearing,reading,listening,feeling,experiencing are different things, I grew up in a country ruled by blacks,my teachers were blacks,my friends were blacks,95% of the population is black, How could you on earth ask anybody to imagine or feel the pain of american slaves, any epic holliwood movie that deals with people's experience can be insightful to the human psyche and what he's capable of but that's about it; I did watch "Roots". Au contraire it's about time diasporans dealt with the legacy of slavery, and acknowledge the damage it did, stop playing the blame game and self-indulging in it, my personnal truth is different to your personnal truth. Toyin Agbetu ( ), a few days ago, at Westminster Abbey, felt that pain and let the world know that Africans around the World still feel that pain caused by inhumanity never before seen on Planet Earth. You tell Diasporians to get over "it". Were we ever allowed to get over "it"? Centuries of kidnapping rape, burnings, mutilations, lynching, boiling in sugar, which finally ended in millions of pounds in reparations (in the British Colonies), reparartions for the slavemaster.We were given nothing. Haiti, after it's momentus African Revolution, unequalled anywhere in the Africans world, paid $22 Billionsfor it's freedom (in current day terms). A sum they did not finish paying until the 1940's. soo-called political Independence was given only a few generations ago too many of us. In the United states, Apartied ruled up until the 1960's, which is when, after a struggle soo dear and costly, our right to vote in that nuclear armed super power , was protected and given to us all. (George Bush's election though begs to differ) White power brought our people into this hell, treated us like animals for centuries. There is no blame game brother. Only a child would be unable to see who caused todays racist international reality. People looking to apologise for the industrialised murder and de-humanisation of millions of Africans, should get over "it". "It" being the fact that Africans have not forgotten what was done and is still been done to them, their children and their ancestral homeland. Europeans are not blaming Africans for their present day wealth and privilege. That would give this (blame) game away, wouldn't it? oh! and about ancestors; on the 1st of July each year when we celebrate our independence from the belgians, the president of Burundi reminds everybody to be proud of what MWEZI GISABO our king did. He chased the arab slave masters from Burundi after years of war and did it, they fire arms, my people had spears, do you know one thing he was africans, so when you say that africans sold their own, you are wrong. Next time try to think in differences not in identities. There are reactionaries both on the continent and in Diaspora. Africans who are progressive and backward self-hating koons. Those who emphasise Africans selling Africans, over the rape of our people and continent, are often like you. Limiting the African experience to their own nationalistic flag waving experience; an experience created to suck the life out of African people, everywhere on the planet. Pan Africanism is antithetical to any ideology which denies the development of Africa's political, economic and human resources. Development based on common African interest. I was talking about Mwezi Gisabo as an example "chill out!"Chilled!!
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History is a people's memory, and without a memory, man is demoted to the lower animals
Malcolm X (1925 - 1965)
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Breadfruit
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Posted: Thursday March 29th, 2007 18:26 |
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Dada wrote: @Russengo
I feel you, in my opinion on Blacknet:
1. there are those who have lived and breathed Africa
2. Those who have lived and still chose to live in the West and "Know" Africa and the Africans from the books they've read and people they have meet in the West but have never set foot in Africa.
3. Same as above but with a desire to understand and learn rather than a chavinistic trait.
4. Same as No 2 & 3 but have been to Africa a few times , even lived there for a time.
5. Same as No2 But rather than listern and learn would rather "Tell" Africans about their Culture and "History" from a "Pan African Perspective" who don't want to learn Sh*t from the horse mouth, curiously they hold a British Passport.
I would reccommend not to try and reason with somebody who already knows what there is to know about Africa and the Africans. A waste of Dialogue. Rather inform the rest of us what your own experiences are.
Dada, you forgot number 6, those who think unless you're born in Africa, you could never be an African. Yet they frequent a site designed for Africans, Worldwide.
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History is a people's memory, and without a memory, man is demoted to the lower animals
Malcolm X (1925 - 1965)
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