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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Monday March 26th, 2007 13:50 |
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Although I tried avoiding the discussion all together, this chocolate Jamaican sister (born in Spanish Town) who I deem misguided and rather coonish tells me that she comes from a "raceless culture" of people and that the only racism in America is Diasporic Africans hating on each other. Granted, all African people have experienced hate from other African people at some point, but we must recognize that this is out of ignorance. It is only addressing the effects, and leaves the causes of the problems to cause further damage without being affronted.
She went on a huge nonsensical rant about how she never gets hated on by her White friends and says that if "African-Americans" are discriminated against it is because they are always playing the "race card". She also tells how her very own best friend, who is Haitian, wouldn't let her come to her family's house because she has an Afro that wasn't chemically or thermally texturized in some way. She is basically mad at all African people blaming them for their own problems. She is such a waste; the girl is gorgeous but her ignorance is so deeply seated that I am certainly not dealing with her anymore.
At the same time, I am aware of many Jamaicans who are rather progessive in areas contrary to her claims about her "raceless culture". In fact, perhaps the greatest Pan-Africanists and Black Nationalists of all time was the late great Marcus Mosiah Garvey who started his campaigns in Jamaica. This is why I am rather dumbfounded at the retrogressive mentality of this Jamaican sister.
Is this the state of consciousness with Jamaicans today? Is this the ramblings of an isolated person who is just far gone? Or perhaps is this a growing line of thought within the Jamaican Island and Diasporic communities?
Last edited on Monday March 26th, 2007 18:46 by Shemsi en Tehuti
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Afriki
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Posted: Monday March 26th, 2007 13:58 |
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Of course they're not going to have the same experiences of racism as we do in the U.S. at least b/c black Jamaicans are the MAJORITY. My boyfriend is Jamaican and he's always told me that the more pressing issue in Jamaica than race is classism and the seperation of the poor from the extremely rich.
And I think your friend is a little right about one thing...white Americans tend to be more enamored (if you will) with non AA blacks. I don't really have time to think and type out my thoughts on this just yet but i'll be back...
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Apedemak
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Posted: Monday March 26th, 2007 13:58 |
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The motto is;
''Out of many, One nation''
Wouldn't you guys in the US fall into the same category?
Last edited on Monday March 26th, 2007 14:00 by Apedemak
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Monday March 26th, 2007 14:05 |
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Afriki wrote: Of course they're not going to have the same experiences of racism as we do in the U.S. at least b/c black Jamaicans are the MAJORITY. My boyfriend is Jamaican and he's always told me that the more pressing issue in Jamaica than race is classism and the seperation of the poor from the extremely rich.
And I think your friend is a little right about one thing...white Americans tend to be more enamored (if you will) with non AA blacks. I don't really have time to think and type out my thoughts on this just yet but i'll be back...
Yes, but is not about where you are from, but where you are at. I have hung out with this sister a few times but she has only become an increasing irritation. I know that Euro-Americans tend to favor non-American Africans, but she takes it to the extent of blaming Africans for their own problems if any racism exists. I mean, just because you are treated well by Whites, does that mean you can now tell other Africans about their experiences in the West?
Anyhow, look forward to hearing back from you with the rest of your thoughts.
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Monday March 26th, 2007 14:09 |
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Apedemak wrote:
The motto is;
''Out of many, One nation''
Wouldn't you guys in the US fall into the same category?
No, because as Afriki pointed out, Africans are the majority in Jamaica and sought to eliminate racism and vestiges of slavery. However, in the U.S., the very essence of its power was built on race. The reason it is the richest nation in the world is due to a 400 year jump-start on slave-labor by our African ancestors. To this day, there has never been a collective concept of "one people". There can never be such a thing with such injustice and disparities between races of people instigated and perpetuated by Whites themselves.
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Apedemak
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Posted: Monday March 26th, 2007 15:36 |
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To this day, there has never been a collective concept of "one people".
What do you mean?
Not talking about being one with any crackers here. You guys are African Americans even though you're from various African nations as we are in the Carib, you're not exactly a raceless peoples with no identity and neither are we... We've never been. If anything theres resentment due to certain African nations involvement in the Maafa in which some people turn their backs on the continent as well as the usual ignorance involved but even then we've always been well rooted for the most part being on the front line and all.
We suffer from class issues as Afriki mentioned and are prehaps seperated by cultural values, the English invited over the more Christian of us over to the UK to work and help them get over WWII. Now people from JA feel abandoned by the ones who left, as though we got rich and don't want to return or just live fat in the hills whereas in reality most don't want to go back because they don't like having to deal with the class issue and would rather return when the Carib is sorted.
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Monday March 26th, 2007 15:39 |
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Apedemak wrote: To this day, there has never been a collective concept of "one people".
What do you mean?
Not talking about being one with any crackers here. You guys are African Americans even though you're from various African nations as we are in the Carib, you're not exactly a raceless peoples with no identity and neither are we... We've never been. If anything theres resentment due to certain African nations involvement in the Maafa in which some people turn their backs on the continent as well as the usual ignorance involved but even then we've always been well rooted for the most part being on the front line and all.
We suffer from class issues as Afriki mentioned and are prehaps seperated by cultural values, the English invited over the more Christian of us over to the UK to work and help them get over WWII. Now people from JA feel abandoned by the ones who left, as though we got rich and don't want to return or just live fat in the hills whereas in reality most don't want to go back because they don't like having to deal with the class issue and would rather return when the Carib is sorted.
I was speaking in America in terms of America never being united and accepting all its people as Jamaica. Western governments, or Capitalism, can only thrive by exploitation. There must be at least one group exploited for the material gain of others or the systems collapses upon itself.
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Apedemak
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Posted: Monday March 26th, 2007 16:12 |
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Its a Pan-African motto, we're not out to mingle with crackers and foriegers. Have a capitalist system with a middle and upper class as well, its just the poor who get exploited and kept in poverty as many are still in a lull after the Maafa so they just out right refuse to be part of the system and live on fringe side. Our divisions are in class and culture. Kinda get a bit clan like going by last names prehaps. .lol.
Had a Metu Neter paper on Linguistics, the author describes an account of one woman who had gone mad under the conditions of her enslavement when asked a question all she could say was;
''Congo a high nation pickney, Congo a high nation.''
Was going to post the paper on her but its gone missing, was one of those ebook things.
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*$HaNnY_Bu*
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Posted: Monday March 26th, 2007 16:33 |
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| Something really an noysme wheb it comes to that quote. Is that some IGNANT jamaicans will try and emphesis the MANY PEOPLE as a means to impress, or be more liberal (those 'liberal' fake rasta that make it an excuse to be with soem white wonmen, but anyhooo)! That came from the africans in jamaica taht came together as a nation, formed a common language and combined african culture. Yes there are some chinese, indian copule white people in jamaica, but that dies not take away the fact that the african population is still about 97%.
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Monday March 26th, 2007 16:41 |
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*$HaNnY_Bu* wrote: Something really an noysme wheb it comes to that quote. Is that some IGNANT jamaicans will try and emphesis the MANY PEOPLE as a means to impress, or be more liberal (those 'liberal' fake rasta that make it an excuse to be with soem white wonmen, but anyhooo)! That came from the africans in jamaica taht came together as a nation, formed a common language and combined african culture. Yes there are some chinese, indian copule white people in jamaica, but that dies not take away the fact that the african population is still about 97%.
Not sure if I am following you correctly. So you are saying that the phrase was meant for the many African people, and not necessarily all others? Therefore, would the Jah sister I was of subject be taking the quote out of context? Just want some clarification here. Thanks for your input so far...
Last edited on Monday March 26th, 2007 18:24 by Shemsi en Tehuti
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Breadfruit
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Posted: Monday March 26th, 2007 16:44 |
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Shemsi en Tehuti wrote: Although I tried avoiding the discussion all together, this chocolate Jamaican sister (born in Spanish Town) who I deem misguided and rather coonish tells me that she comes from a "raceless culture" of people and that the only racism in America is Diasporic Africans hating on each other. Granted, all African people have experienced hate from other African people at some point, but we must recognize that this is out of ignorance. It is only addressing the effects, and leaves the causes of the problems to cause further damage without being affronted.
She went on a huge nonsensical rant about how she never gets hated on by her White friends and says that if "African-Americans" are discriminated against it is because they are always playing the "race card". She also tells how her very own best friend, who is Haitian, wouldn't let her come to her family's house because she has an Afro that wasn't chemically or thermally texturized in some way. She is basically mad at all African people blaming them for their own problems. She is such a waste; the girl is gorgeous but her ignorance is so deeply seated that I am certainly not dealing with her anymore.
At the same time, I am aware of many Jamaicans who are rather progessive in areas contrary to her claims about her "raceless culture". In fact, perhaps the greatest Pan-Africanists and Black Nationalists of all time was the late great Marcus Mosiah Garvey who started his campaigns in Jamaica. This is why I am rather dumbfounded at the retrogressive mentality of this Jamaican sister.
Is this the state of consciousness with Jamaicans today? Is this the ramblings of an isolated person who is just far gone? Or perhaps is this a growing line of thought within the Jamaican Island and Diasporic communities?
@Shemsi en Tehuti,
Brother that Island has had an African majority for centuries. Just like everywhere else in our English speaking Diaspora, you will find African people with various levels of historical consciousness.
One of Jamaica's national heroes (Nanny) was born in Africa, and two more were probably born from Africans born on the continent - and then we have the great Marcus Garvey.
This legacy has great meaning to Jamaicans aware of their people's journey and struggle, thus far.
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Posted: Monday March 26th, 2007 16:51 |
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**Deleted by Moderation Team**
Last edited on Monday March 26th, 2007 17:00 by Breadfruit
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Bredder Tukoma
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Posted: Monday March 26th, 2007 18:01 |
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Out of many one people was never a Pan African term and wasnt coined with the African majority in mind. Neither do I suspect was it coined by an African Jmaiacan.
It is an attempt in my view of the ruling classes to gloss over the race based class divide in Jamiaca that has been there since day dot. Yes it is true that JA is a very class driven society/ but any walk into an uptown Kingston establishment/bar or neighborhood will show you how the class divide mirrors skin complexion or race. As brown skin complexion/white/Chinese/Indian will be overrepresented in those places. The business pages of any of the newspapers also illustrates this.Light skin Africans seemingly are the only group not protected from being in poverty though. And you will not find unmixed Indian/ Chinese or whites living in the ghetto. You got to have some African blood for that.
And you cannot tell some Jamaicans this either..as they are in denial and have swallowed the foolish motto which is not acknowledged as a merging of African peoples. Definately not officially in any government literature.
Is this the state of consciousness with Jamaicans today? Is this the ramblings of an isolated person who is just far gone? Or perhaps is this a growing line of thought within the Jamaican Island and Diasporic communities?
You'll have to speak to more than one Jamaican surely to pose such a question. Is this what you have consisitently heard from jamaicans?
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*$HaNnY_Bu*
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Posted: Monday March 26th, 2007 18:21 |
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Shemsi en Tehuti wrote: *$HaNnY_Bu* wrote: Something really an noysme wheb it comes to that quote. Is that some IGNANT jamaicans will try and emphesis the MANY PEOPLE as a means to impress, or be more liberal (those 'liberal' fake rasta that make it an excuse to be with soem white wonmen, but anyhooo)! That came from the africans in jamaica taht came together as a nation, formed a common language and combined african culture. Yes there are some chinese, indian copule white people in jamaica, but that dies not take away the fact that the african population is still about 97%.
Not sure if I am following you correctly. So you are saying that the phrase was meant for the many African people, and not necessarily all others? Therefore, would the Jah sister I was of subject be taking the quote out of context? Just want some clarification here. Thanks for your input so far...
IMO some jamaicans will want to add 'everbody' else to the equation to seem 'less ignorant'...by whom...exactly. The sister you were talking too may feel that because of this quatation that being accepted by those white americans being of jamaican heritage is benefical for her, over African americans. Now i agree with Brudda Tukoma with the whole class issue. That may also be the reason for this trail of thought.
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Monday March 26th, 2007 18:27 |
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Bredder Tukoma wrote: Out of many one people was never a Pan African term and wasnt coined with the African majority in mind. Neither do I suspect was it coined by an African Jmaiacan.
It is an attempt in my view of the ruling classes to gloss over the race based class divide in Jamiaca that has been there since day dot. Yes it is true that JA is a very class driven society/ but any walk into an uptown Kingston establishment/bar or neighborhood will show you how the class divide mirrors skin complexion or race. As brown skin complexion/white/Chinese/Indian will be overrepresented in those places. The business pages of any of the newspapers also illustrates this.Light skin Africans seemingly are the only group not protected from being in poverty though. And you will not find unmixed Indian/ Chinese or whites living in the ghetto. You got to have some African blood for that.
And you cannot tell some Jamaicans this either..as they are in denial and have swallowed the foolish motto which is not acknowledged as a merging of African peoples. Definately not officially in any government literature.
Is this the state of consciousness with Jamaicans today? Is this the ramblings of an isolated person who is just far gone? Or perhaps is this a growing line of thought within the Jamaican Island and Diasporic communities?
You'll have to speak to more than one Jamaican surely to pose such a question. Is this what you have consisitently heard from jamaicans?
Well, this is sort of why I am posing the question here because I know there are many Jamaicans that frequent BNV. I have heard a few Jamaicans use the phrase, "Out of many...", but this was the first time I have seen someone so retrogressive in mentality talking the same stuff.
Last edited on Monday March 26th, 2007 18:35 by Shemsi en Tehuti
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Bredder Tukoma
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Posted: Monday March 26th, 2007 18:33 |
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Well why not look the motto up? Look at the explanation behind it.. and then you can judge accordingly those who use it. See if Rasta's the most concious group of their heritage in the country use the term?
Is it the retarded mentality thats a surprise or is it the use of the term to back it? Knowing the term for what it is should inform you on what arguments it can defend from what it cant.
I nearly forgot. It is one of the most earlly national terms for the land you live in. Another clue.
Last edited on Monday March 26th, 2007 18:36 by Bredder Tukoma
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Apedemak
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Posted: Monday March 26th, 2007 18:42 |
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Wheres Fred Black when you need him. 
Out of many one people was never a Pan African term and wasnt coined with the African majority in mind. Neither do I suspect was it coined by an African Jmaiacan.
So it has nothing to do with the fact that we are of many diffrent nations and have come together as One Blood to become Jamaican/Carribean?  Fits well if it dosen't.
And since when has JA had a system based on Caste?
Our Black African upper class live in (barbados .lol) the hills, Manchester and those places there. We don't have a caste system where paleskinned Africans are at the top and if any other race of peoples are its because of their economic advantage over us, its what they're there to do. Business. They get on with it and keep to themselves. If anything it can be said as it is anywhere that the people at the top are the usual Coonish type but it has nothing to do with skin colour. The current P.M is as dark as anything. As said its classism, the Christian coons are at the top because they're the most europeanised, same anywhere in the dispora. Its a rich poor divide.
*Edditt*
Apparently its Latin, used by the Americans in the 1700s but I still hold that its used in referance to our unity and is Pan-African in that sence;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_pluribus_unum Last edited on Monday March 26th, 2007 18:55 by Apedemak
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Bredder Tukoma
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Posted: Monday March 26th, 2007 18:46 |
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| Bro I got to showcase my skills on a 5 a side pitch right now. Ill answer you later.
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Bredder Tukoma
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Posted: Monday March 26th, 2007 22:40 |
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Apedemak wrote:
Wheres Fred Black when you need him.
Out of many one people was never a Pan African term and wasnt coined with the African majority in mind. Neither do I suspect was it coined by an African Jmaiacan.
So it has nothing to do with the fact that we are of many diffrent nations and have come together as One Blood to become Jamaican/Carribean? Fits well if it dosen't.
Read the Jamiaca Information Service (government agency) and see what they say about the motto...
http://www.jis.gov.jm/special_sections/Independence/symbols.html
"The Jamaican national motto is ‘Out of Many One People’, based on the population’s multi-racial roots." I dare you to find a description of the national motto which is Pan African in concept. Its no secret that it refers to the so called multi-racial roots.. and they are not referring to white rapists either? Yes it would fit well if it were African minded but its not.
And since when has JA had a system based on Caste?
Since the first Europeans set foot there.
Our Black African upper class live in (barbados .lol) the hills, Manchester and those places there. We don't have a caste system where paleskinned Africans are at the top and if any other race of peoples are its because of their economic advantage over us, its what they're there to do. Business. They get on with it and keep to themselves. If anything it can be said as it is anywhere that the people at the top are the usual Coonish type but it has nothing to do with skin colour. The current P.M is as dark as anything. As said its classism, the Christian coons are at the top because they're the most europeanised, same anywhere in the dispora. Its a rich poor divide.
*Edditt*
Apparently its Latin, used by the Americans in the 1700s but I still hold that its used in referance to our unity and is Pan-African in that sence;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_pluribus_unum
Yes a few dark skin Jamaicans hold positions of high judge/ Prime Minister (after 30 years of independence mind you), and some lucrative businesses. But as I said do a search and find out who owns the real big business in Jamamica ( Grace Foods/ Wray & Nephew, Tate & Lyle, Jamaica Broilers, Hotels) and you will find the owners are minority groups. Libyans/ Syrians/ Chinese (who are more small business)/ Europeans. Or very few light skin Jamaicans. Who wields economic and therefore polictical power in Jamaica?
As for economic advantage did you know that while the Chinese and Indian labourers were brought over to replace African labour African children were not allowed or could not have a secondary education. In 1942 under 5% of Africans received a secondary education. Do you not think the British colonial system at the time played and enforced these diffrences in opportunity with law?
As I said many of the elite are of a lighter hue in Jamaica. Many of the more exclusive areas are populated by those of a lighter hue. Tell me you ever see a very light skin boy begging for change at the traffic lights. Are Chinese or white children traumatised by gun shots at night? Why are the business pages overrepresented by Chinese/ Whites/ Brown Jamaicans. Because its an ex slave society thats why. And nothing much has changed in the 40 years since indepenedence. Except a few more of the whites and minorities leaving due to political violense in the 70s and 80s. Things have changed yes and a few more Africans can get a squeeze.. but the colour caste system is alive and well in Jamaica. As I suspect it is all over the Caribbean.
Listen I went to a brazzerie in uptown Kingston 2 months ago and it was like being in aparteid South Africa. A few black faces/ the majority brown.. and the only white faces I saw while in Kingston. We left and drove maybe 3 miles and back into the seething masses of Africans/ the car cleaners/ hustlers/ iglers and ordinary folk. Its blatant and in your face.
Last edited on Monday March 26th, 2007 22:41 by Bredder Tukoma
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Apedemak
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Posted: Tuesday March 27th, 2007 10:11 |
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Yeah we're still suffering from what not after the Maafa, fighting off the wests' grudge against us as we took the Carib from them but its not a caste system, far from it.
A lightskinned Caribbean person could have a darkskinned family, you know that, if it was a caste system the lightskinned peoples would oppress the darkskninned peoples, look down on them and so on. What we have is no diffrent from anywhere else in the west, a westernised model of acceptance whereas if you're facial features are deemed ''acceptable'' you're more likely to get a job and find it easier to get along in society in general. We fought tooth and nail against all that caste crap and as a nation who fought that we don't suffer from what Barbados does for example. Far from it.
Might not find many of us in the yellow pages but we're still here speaking from experience. Most of our upper class lives in the hills or various diffrent countries but we're still around. If there were a caste system in JA Marcus Garvey wouldn't be our National hero being a C.African and my family would get treated badly. .lol.
As said we fought off all that nonsence and are too well rooted to even be able to have a caste system, won't hear us talking about having spanish blood and being better than the next person for it because like me a light(er) skinned person could have a darkskinned or more African featured parent.
Ours is a cultural/class division. With the exception of the Reds from P.E who would like/love for there to be.
Last edited on Tuesday March 27th, 2007 10:16 by Apedemak
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Posted: Tuesday March 27th, 2007 18:03 |
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Shemsi en Tehuti wrote: Although I tried avoiding the discussion all together, this chocolate Jamaican sister (born in Spanish Town) who I deem misguided and rather coonish tells me that she comes from a "raceless culture" of people and that the only racism in America is Diasporic Africans hating on each other. Granted, all African people have experienced hate from other African people at some point, but we must recognize that this is out of ignorance. It is only addressing the effects, and leaves the causes of the problems to cause further damage without being affronted.
She went on a huge nonsensical rant about how she never gets hated on by her White friends and says that if "African-Americans" are discriminated against it is because they are always playing the "race card". She also tells how her very own best friend, who is Haitian, wouldn't let her come to her family's house because she has an Afro that wasn't chemically or thermally texturized in some way. She is basically mad at all African people blaming them for their own problems. She is such a waste; the girl is gorgeous but her ignorance is so deeply seated that I am certainly not dealing with her anymore.
At the same time, I am aware of many Jamaicans who are rather progessive in areas contrary to her claims about her "raceless culture". In fact, perhaps the greatest Pan-Africanists and Black Nationalists of all time was the late great Marcus Mosiah Garvey who started his campaigns in Jamaica. This is why I am rather dumbfounded at the retrogressive mentality of this Jamaican sister.
Is this the state of consciousness with Jamaicans today? Is this the ramblings of an isolated person who is just far gone? Or perhaps is this a growing line of thought within the Jamaican Island and Diasporic communities?
I don't understand why this Jamaican girl's opinioned bothers you so much. I AM AA and I've met and heard about just as many AA people who feel like White RACISM is justified just as long as the Black American in question is "uneducated" or viewed as ghetto. In their eyes it never turns into discrimination until the person is AT LEAST middle class......................
 And since this thread is already off topic, jumping to the skin color of Jamaicia's elite I have to ask you: What is your ethnic background is really. Didn't you say that your father was Ivorian one time? If not Ivorian I'm almost certain that you said that you had a non-AA parent!
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Apedemak
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Posted: Tuesday March 27th, 2007 18:22 |
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