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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Thursday January 11th, 2007 01:30 |
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Before you guys seek out to stone me, hear me out...
In America, both Jamaicans and Nigerians are perceived as arrogant who think they are better than other people of African descent, namely African Americans. I am not saying that either are actually arrogant, or think they are better, but there are a couple things I wonder:
- Could this perception be due to a common inherited tribal culture that Jamaicans and Nigerians have, where others percieve some of their cultural traits as pompous?
- Could arrogance and pomposity be a trait inherited from the British given both Jamaica and Nigeria were colonized by England?
Ok...without attempting to stone me here, what are your thoughts on this?
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FredB
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Posted: Thursday January 11th, 2007 02:38 |
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@Shem I have the uniquivocal answer to this because this is something I watched as a nuetral party as a child, being from a small island, and studying the dyamics and use to think about it.
Now I did not know this at an early age that some of them who are the most combatant could be of the same people, because there were Nigerians brought to Jamaica as well. So that is probably a case of Karma....
But more seriously, I think those who are like the stereotype in question, who are never the majority, but we have seen it enough for it not to be lies or purely malicious either way. Neither does it have to be because I have Jamaican and Nigerian bredrins who are the nicest and civilised people you can get, but they have very similar mindsets which is hilarious as a nuetral to observe it.
But the factors to this mental condition I think is one. Size they both come from the largest countries in their hemisphers of the African world. Consequently, they suffer with the same syndrome of those who come from such land masses and like the US have the ego that goes with it. I see little differece between the two on that one.
Secondly, there is the implicit and arrogant assumption with size comes quality as my father use to say. Now that use to be my one of my killer blows in school when some loud mouth big chest Jamaican lout use to acost us small island boys when I use to tell them about their illiteracy rates and other gems designed to take a boy down when he wants to test about quality of civilisation and culture or history.
Thirdly and closely associated with size is a duality of inflated pride based on narrowness and lack of exposure and pig ignorance about anything outside their country in any depth. Cosmopolitain Nigerians or Jamaicans are some of the most sophisticated people you will meet. It is the pig igonrant ones who just hot of the plane you better watch yourself with..
They think there is only one history of Africa or the Caribbean and it is theirs..In the case of my Jamaican cousins my father use to say you must forgive them because French is a place in Mars as far as they are concerned, nevermind reading or speaking it to know some of the most important events in Caribbean history took place or were carried out in languages most of those ignorant f**kers would not have a clue what they were talking about. But to make it worse as my mother use to say they would not even have a friend in a ten mile radius who would know anyone who could help them.
I mean when your nearest neighbour is Cuba and you folks can't even speak Spanish and in fact we got more folks in our countries who can, don't say much about living good or being tight with your neighbours like most of Eastern and other Caribbean islands are with each other.
So you can see I am completely nuetral and without malice or bias on this one..But it is funny more Jamaicans have pissed me off than any Nigerian and to be honest can't really think of one..But them yardies Jesus lord have mercy...Let me give you a joke about one of my close crew who is high brow Jamaican. Schooled from childhood in Jamaican history, from deeply patriotic and radical people and highly educated and concious.
My man should be a one man show about his time in Africa where he lives most of the year. When in Zimbabwe he was getting big love because of course being highly educated and politically educated people they know of the great Jamaican history, and pedigree of radical of all types, intellectuals and cultural artists and I can go on. Who else could produce the greatest African over the last five hundred years Marcus Garvey...Go South Africa..Big love, Kenya big love, Tanzania big love...Zambia?  My man dismissed it on the grounds these people are poor and must not be educated or something like that. Kenneth Kaunda as he said must have been f**king about and never put Jamaica high on the education agenda
Go Nigeria that is the time my man giving pure jokes to the point my wife almost had a stroke and people are pissing themselves. First of all most folk no nothing about Jamaica and what they do is stereotype..I know this personally because there is this Nigerian elder who runs a shop who I have known for years and we chat and reason plenty times. 20 years later my man always says but 'brother Fred which part of Jamaica do your people come from?'. I said brother Adi I told you I am not from Nigeria and he replies 'aah..Fred I am not deaf or losing my memory..But what part of Jamaica is it anywhere I cannot remember now'..My man cracks me every time..
My bredrin could not believe the insult and the impuning of his country when he was in Nigeria to make it worse he could not get a word in when talking to some brothers telling how great Nigeria was...We laughed so hard it hurt...because you should have seen homeboys face....about not knowing about Jamaica as if god made that country first and to meet others who have exactly the same dispositon would make a movie. They thought Jamaica was a land of wild people and gangsters and dangerous folk..My man almost fainted...
But if there is one lovable rouge in the pack who you may not know much about...They're called Bajans [from Barbados Le Moore's mob]As far a Bajan is concerned even their tramps went to the best school in the region..You see that armed robber on the television..I know that boy when I was in the best College in the Caribbean man...Look whatever it is Bajans know more and can do it better...Another one is 'you're in Barbados man we don't tolerate them foolish around here'...as they puff their male chest with pride or breasts in the case of women..
It can be cleaning dog sh*t in the street a Bajan will refere to his country and say 'now listen boy' [in their drawn out accents] you see in Barbados'...... as you wait for the punch line..
FB
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Vubundada_Kandaba
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Posted: Thursday January 11th, 2007 05:16 |
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Allow me to make a slight insignificant correction that would add, rather than take away from the points made. FredB and Shemsi know this already but I am high-lighting a point FredB mentioned for the benefit of other people who might be reading this and might not know. When FredB said both Jamaica and Nigeria are large in Size, he was not talking about geographical size, rather he was talking about size population wise. Sudan, Algeria, Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), Tanzania, South Africa, Ethiopia, Angola, Libya and Mali are larger than Nigeria in terms of geographical size.
I think the problem seems to be when we come here to the West, particularly in the United Kingdom. Matter of fact I never knew about all this mess and I actually learned more about the arrogancy if any right here on BNV illustrated by a handfull of people, particularly when they are hiding behind a computer. I read an article back in 2002; about some Conflicts and Animosity between African Students and African-Americans at a University in Ohio. I decided to learn more about such conflicts and typed some search word on yahoo search engine and lord and behold what did I get. I stumbled across the old BNV for the first time with discussion from the period of 1996-1998. I almost had a heart attack. Some Jamaican women would come in and insult Africans so hard, it is not even funny and all hell broke loose for like 15 pages worth of insults. And here I was a born pan-Africanist from since the age of nine (9). I was very dis-appointed because from a young age when I learned that there are black people in the West, I was very interested to learn how they got there and taught myself some history and asked questions.
I went through the topics of BNV and found more topics containing nothing but pure insults thrown back and forth. A Jamaican will come in and insult all Africans and then one African usually a Nigerian will reply back and insult all Jamaicans and the fight is then on, with everybody jumping in and a free for all and vice versa. I decided to pick up the phone and call some people in the UK to find out what was going on and why the animosity between Africans and African Caribbeans.
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newstart30
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Posted: Thursday January 11th, 2007 08:06 |
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| divide and rule going on here!!!
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Black_Power
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Posted: Thursday January 11th, 2007 08:42 |
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shemsi..
its simple really... WE ARE BOTH BOSSES!
as far as the carribean is concerned jamaica run tings...plain and simple
Jamaican influence has spread world wide in many aspects.
nowdont get me wrong other plces like trinidad and the whole soca movement have had a small inpact but nowhere in the scale of things like jamaic
when people think of the carribean they think of jamaica...full stop
same with nigeria..them folks have are everywhere.
now Ive visited a few of the so called "small islands" in the carribean and although they are beautiful and the people freindly you could literally see their faces change when they find out you jamaican/jamaican decent. so prejudice cuts both ways. you can see it from some of the posts right here on BNV
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Breadfruit
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Posted: Thursday January 11th, 2007 10:08 |
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There are many Africans from Jamaica and Nigeria who are not easily identifiable as belonging to those nations, once away from their home countries. If such people are small or great in number, I don’t honestly know, provoking for me the possibility of stereotyping here.
I can clearly see, via phenotype, and inherited genetic mannerisms, that many Jamaicans are directly descended from Africans from around The River Niger Area. There are places in Jamaica that these Africans actually named after places back in Africa. Calabar, is one place that springs immediately to mind.
There has been historically documented, "high spirited" resistance to colonial rule in Jamaica, and this many Jamaicans know of and is something, I think apparent within Jamaican culture, but the same could be said for other Africans from the region.
Though, many Africans in Jamaica are from, present day Nigeria, Jamaican Culture (imho) has received far greater influences from the Ashanti, and other Akan peoples. Many Jamaicans feel at home in Ghana, and the reasons are often due to a strong affiliation to the culture.
So in conclusion, I would have to concur with FB that any reasons for similarities between Jamaicans and Nigerians, are more to do with how those particular Africans were socialized and a function of their unique political histories.
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poisonivy
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Posted: Thursday January 11th, 2007 12:28 |
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@FredB
now le ma teir, i jes read wa u had to say bout bubadus, and i don't like um.
don le ma gur fling down my accent again. 
@topic
i find some jamaicans and some afrikans to be quite aggressive.
ibo people in my opinion or very arrogant and look down on others who are not as well off as they are.
while yuroba are loud. / 
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Apedemak
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Posted: Thursday January 11th, 2007 14:20 |
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There has been historically documented, "high spirited" resistance to colonial rule in Jamaica, and this many Jamaicans know of and is something, I think apparent within Jamaican culture.
We're warriors. Born dread.
Treated much more harshly than our American counsins during the Maafa... prehaps our pride can come across as arrogance at times.
- Could arrogance and pomposity be a trait inherited from the British given both Jamaica and Nigeria were colonized by England?
No. For us Brits prehaps but not Jamaicans.
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Vubundada_Kandaba
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Posted: Thursday January 11th, 2007 14:22 |
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Black_Power wrote: shemsi..
its simple really... WE ARE BOTH BOSSES!
as far as the carribean is concerned jamaica run tings...plain and simple
Jamaican influence has spread world wide in many aspects.
when people think of the carribean they think of jamaica...full stop
same with nigeria..them folks have are everywhere.
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Can you explain how they [Nigeria & Jamaica] are both bosses? How and in what ways? Also how does Jamaica run things in the Caribbean? Do you mean they ran the Economies, Education system, Businesses , Politics, Police, & Security System, and Judiciary of other so called "Small Islands"? Are the Governments of the so called "Small Islands" controlled by Jamaicans or the government of Jamaica?
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Mezmerized
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Posted: Thursday January 11th, 2007 14:34 |
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Vubundada_Kandaba wrote:Can you explain how they [Nigeria & Jamaica] are both bosses? How and in what ways? Also how does Jamaica run things in the Caribbean? Do you mean they ran the Economies, Education system, Businesses , Politics, Police, & Security System, and Judiciary of other so called "Small Islands"? Are the Governments of the so called "Small Islands" controlled by Jamaicans or the government of Jamaica?
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Black_Power
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Posted: Thursday January 11th, 2007 14:40 |
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its ok mez you can laugh...look at congo...nuff said
VK you may not understand carribean slang so ill let you off this time but you can be a boss in more that those ways you mentioned.
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Thursday January 11th, 2007 15:33 |
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Black_Power wrote: its ok mez you can laugh...look at congo...nuff said
 ...damn dude, you didn't have to take it there. That's just wrong. By the way, anyone could easily say, "look at Jamaica".
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YankeeJamaRican
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Posted: Thursday January 11th, 2007 16:11 |
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@VK, being boss is a tongue-in-cheek braggadocio term, so dont take it too seriously.
As far as runnin' tings, that is hyperbolic at best; back home, the Jamaican government isnt even running itself.
It seems to be a uniquely American trait to perceive other ethnicities as "arrogant" yet the irony remains that "arrogant" is the universal perception of Americans for the rest of the world. (I'm not jumping on you, Shemsi). I simply think that AAs have inherited those blinders. At uni in the US, the vast majority of my colleagues were either continental or caribbean African at post grad level, I've had some unpleasant times with the attitudes of the AAs regarding that.
I found myself completely agreeing with brother FredB's post, (the planets must be out of alignment or something  ) but I think he was spot on.
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Vubundada_Kandaba
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Posted: Thursday January 11th, 2007 16:25 |
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Black_Power wrote: its ok mez you can laugh...look at congo...nuff said
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BP. The problems in the Congo is not of her own makings but of Foreign Western Forces and you know that well. You should realise that the Congo is the richest Country in the whole World in terms of Natural Resources and if the Congolese are allowed to develop in peace, they could easily become an economic power house surpassing Japan, the UK and Germany and many people would be looking to immigrate there in search of opportunities and jobs. The resources in the Congo has been a curse to the people of that Country because everyone wants a peice of the action.
Allow me to shed some History about the Congo and what that Country could become if allowed to flourish in peace, so next time you won't make such comments:
(1) The Congo (DRC) has an ability to produce 650 Billion Kilowatt of Electricity from the Zaire River Basin. This is almost 66% of the Hydro-Electricity produced in the World. It has potential to supply many Countries in Africa with Electricity. Even an under-water Electricity line could be ran to provide Jamaica with Electricity if the technology can be developed to ran power lines under the ocean in a cheap and reliable method.
(2) Most of the raw materials you use in your prized Electronic gear is from the Congo.
(3) 65% of the Cobalt comes from Zaire (Congo), 33% of the Chromium comes from the Congo, the richest ore in the World, Zinc, Lead, Silver, industrial Diamonds, Gold, and 70% of the mined Uranium all come from the Congo.
(4) The forest alone in the Congo can make it a World Power house in Timber production and Chemical processing from distillation of wood and its derivatives.
(5) The Congo alone can provide Enough Food to feed half the people in the World.
If the Congo does not have all these resources, it would probably be safe like Jamaica; safe in terms of civil wars and Foreign Governments meddling. We should use the Congo as an example of what can happen to our Countries when they are deemed powerful or have the ability to become powerful in the eyes of the Western Governments. Laughing at the plight of Congo would be a mistake because today is them and tomorrow could be you because they[Congo] might be able to get out of the predicament they are in and tomorrow many Caribbean and African Countries would come asking them for Economic Aid if and when they[Congo] prospers.
So instead lets join hands and give the Congolese a helping hand because their prosperity means that we in Africa and other Caribbean Nations would prosper too by cooperating with them if we all work together. We can also be able to keep whitey in check by pooling her resources and keeping a tight control and instead of supplying Americ and trhe West they can supply other Nations in Africa and the Caribbeans to build their own industries so they can prosper.
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Thursday January 11th, 2007 16:30 |
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| As always...you are right on point VK.
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Vubundada_Kandaba
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Posted: Thursday January 11th, 2007 16:33 |
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Thanks YankeeJamaRican for clarifying things. I thought maybe BP was serious and believed he meant control of Nations. You also brought up a point I completely forgot, the arrogancy of Americans and African Americans. How about that Shemis, care to explain that?
To me it is O.K to have pride in ones Nation/Country, as long as it does not become too much pride to the point of putting others down.
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Thursday January 11th, 2007 17:15 |
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Vubundada_Kandaba wrote: Thanks YankeeJamaRican for clarifying things. I thought maybe BP was serious and believed he meant control of Nations. You also brought up a point I completely forgot, the arrogancy of Americans and African Americans. How about that Shemis, care to explain that?
To me it is O.K to have pride in ones Nation/Country, as long as it does not become too much pride to the point of putting others down.
Here is how I see it. Before the Civil Rights Movement and the retrogression that followed with desired integration campaigned by African-American bought and sold coons, the collective mentality was quite different in the Americanized African. In many respects, we saw ourselves as no different than our Continental brothers and sisters. After MLK and the coons that followed got to talking, much of that diminished. The focus was on how good the possessions of the White man were, and how we need to try to fit in instead of working for our own possessions like many of us did before Civil Rights.
Europeans had been consistently arrogant towards Africans for the last 500 years in their literature, thoughts, and behavior. Naturally, when the focus of Americanized Africans changed from self-determination to idolization of Whiteness and its privileges, many of us also inherited some of their political and social philosophies. 50 years ago, you could get 100,000 Blacks to build their own communities with their own businesses (i.e. Rosewood, Tulsa, Harlem, Omaha, etc.). Now, they only look towards those that are White so that they receive white privileges. This desire for Whiteness also manifests disdain for anything contradictory to the White system of superiority, just as White men.
It is so bad, that I have a female preacher family member who recently finished seminary school. She told me that slavery and colonialism was God's punishment to Africans for being heathens. Furthermore, she stated she wanted nothing to do with Africa, saying, "if it is so special to Afro-centrists, then they should all move there...and if I had the money I'd buy them all a ticket to get out of here". I tried to calmly explain to her how conditions in Africa were created, and how its nations are the richest in the world, only the power and control are misappropriated. My words fell on deaf ears, and she proceeded to poke fun at Continental Africans coming over here in a way I cannot (or will not) repeat here. Just 40-50 years ago, this kind of talk would have been unheard of. It is my opinion that by seeking integration with Whites, some of us have intrinsically adopted their arrogant ideology of White Supremacy, whether we fully realize it or not.
Last edited on Monday January 15th, 2007 14:08 by Shemsi en Tehuti
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Apedemak
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Posted: Thursday January 11th, 2007 17:22 |
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---edditt---
Was gonna say that America is also a former British colony but yeah...
Last edited on Thursday January 11th, 2007 17:42 by Apedemak
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DSP
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Posted: Thursday January 11th, 2007 17:49 |
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I guess I'm kinda late...
***sets up camp***
***sets up camera and equipment***
***lays out refreshments***
***chuckles to self***
okay people, my all in one booth is open... enjoy the festivities.
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Posted: Thursday January 11th, 2007 19:14 |
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@All this is purely a joke thing so let's keep it on that tip, because i have never met any serious calibre or radical brothers or sisters in any part of the African world who takes this sh*t seriously or who does not laugh and know the limits and dangers of tribalism and how it is used and who against within their own societies and for what purposes.
But tribal jokes to me are some of the sweetest. And all of us are victims of it. Remember the Southpark film and that classic and wicked song 'Blame Canada'. One of the things I like about Caribbean tribalism is people prefer to make jokes at each others expense than anything serious. I don't think any politician no matter how devious could ever seriously generate that type of nationalism based on tribal hatred that could stir any one country...Caribbean people don't take that sh*t serious unless it comes to the decline in our status as cricket world super power for which we have no other reasonable alternatives than to blame Jamaica and Barbados and that is written in stone.
@Poisonivy and you wonder why I need a translator any time you move out of middle-class areas in Barbados..WTF. Leave the UWI campus and you are in trouble, man could strave and die of thirst if any sh*t happen on campus and you had to fend for yourself in many communities trust me...If you catch two words you are lucky...Certain parts of Jamaica are like that when all you can do is wear some stupid grin or nod because it's like what the f**k did my man say and if he repeats it you are none the wiser...
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FredB
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Posted: Thursday January 11th, 2007 19:25 |
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Shemsi. Don't think white supremacy on the real is the main factor. I think it is the evolution of the nation state and the emerging independence of these 'sovereign' nations and the merging of personal and group identity with that process.
The creation of the 'Super Nigerian or Super Jamaican' did not exist before that time. Both of these nations were at the forefront of independenec in their respective spheres of influence. Underlying that is a presumption of superiority in sofar as it was seen as they were ready for it and could handle it so to speak...while those of us of lesser nations were not. While completely understandable, as time was to prove in both instances it was very hollow.
The media in this country and white supremacy in that context is very responsible for the targetting and demonisation of both Jamaicans as a generic group and Nigerians and I have no doubt that feeds those who are ignorant or so predisposed to such views.
But the fundamental dyanmics which shaped this super nationalism has little to do with white people or white supremacy as such. Simply a reflection of the political developments and mass protests and actual numbers involved which helped to drive the independence process.
Peace.
FB
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Posted: Thursday January 11th, 2007 20:52 |
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