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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Tuesday January 9th, 2007 16:40 |
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Reading the poignant work of African scholars like Chinweizu, I started to think about what a successful Pan-African movement would look like on the Continent. Would it involve Islamic countries and/or Muslims in Africa and the Diaspora? I mean, let's be real...both Muslims in the Diaspora and Africa seem to be apologists or at the very least have an affinity for Arabs...the very people who are the cause of over 1400 years of endless terror and misery. Chinweizu, a sharp-cutting Nigerian, has even called for military action against Islamicism in Africa.
I have met African Muslims who try to include people like Libyan President, Moammar al-Ghadafi, as Africans (or brothers), as well as other sand-cracker Arabs who only look at us to further their exploits. I have a friend from The Gambia who tells of a major street named after Ghadafi, and how strict the country is under Islamic law. A female friend of mine is going there later this year, but was warned to keep the hijab on and act a certain way or it would be an "invitation to rape, and even murder". All this coming from a Muslim man, but the faithful gaze in his eye illustrated to me that he saw nothing wrong with this while I just nodded.
Anyhow, to get back on topic...Can there be a successful Pan-African Movement that includes Muslims or Islamic countries when Muslims (both Arab and African) continue to cause the most tragic divisiveness on the Continent long-running for over 1400 years?
Last edited on Tuesday January 9th, 2007 16:52 by Shemsi en Tehuti
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theonethatstands
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Posted: Tuesday January 9th, 2007 16:49 |
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Homie People will not get raped if they don't wear a hijab in the Gambia. That dude must have been messing with you. Loads of western women go there and they don't wear anything vaguely islamic. The people there are very nice and accomodating of different styles of dress. It is totally different to say P*kistan or Saudi Arabia
I agree with you about those Islamic nuts though. Most of them have pledged their allegiances to the arabs and asians and forget about the tyranny and genocide of the arabs. The apologist crap I have heard sometimes makes me sick, about how the arabs 'weren't that bad' blah blah blah. It is sad how so many of the younger brothers are brainwashe dinto this cult.
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The Last African
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Posted: Tuesday January 9th, 2007 18:04 |
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Shemsi en Tehuti wrote:
I have met African Muslims who try to include people like Libyan President, Moammar al-Ghadafi, as Africans (or brothers), as well as other sand-cracker Arabs who only look at us to further their exploits. I have a friend from The Gambia who tells of a major street named after Ghadafi, and how strict the country is under Islamic law. A female friend of mine is going there later this year, but was warned to keep the hijab on and act a certain way or it would be an "invitation to rape, and even murder". All this coming from a Muslim man, but the faithful gaze in his eye illustrated to me that he saw nothing wrong with this while I just nodded.
LOL, still going strong I see.
I could debate more so. But I just had to reply that you friend is talking complete and uetter bullocks (I think he was kidding you) and you seem to be rather naive to belivie that without actually looking it up,,,sometimes I think you use stuff simply because it futhers your agenda (regardless of how absurd it may be and sounud). The Gambia barely has any Sharia laws (heritage is one case of it ). And there certainly isn't any laws in Hijab . 5 %o the women wear hijab...at MOST. The only women that wear hijab and they only do it sporadically is elder women who have travelled to Mecca, but even they don't do it all the times. "Inviting rape"...LOL.. Have you actually been at the clubs there ? I can tell you for sure I thought I was in the Red Light Districts of Estonia...American clothing style is very popular...I mean very...And none of these women were raped or murdred. By the way there are lots of westernes their...women. And none have been raped yet...hmmm 
Man you are funny. I rescently visited the Chechen Resistance home page and they were complaining of how slack Islam was there...LOL what a f**king joke your "friend" was...he was surely playing you.
You have surely outdone yourself this time....
Last edited on Tuesday January 9th, 2007 18:05 by The Last African
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Tuesday January 9th, 2007 18:21 |
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Dark Prince wrote: Shemsi en Tehuti wrote:
I have met African Muslims who try to include people like Libyan President, Moammar al-Ghadafi, as Africans (or brothers), as well as other sand-cracker Arabs who only look at us to further their exploits. I have a friend from The Gambia who tells of a major street named after Ghadafi, and how strict the country is under Islamic law. A female friend of mine is going there later this year, but was warned to keep the hijab on and act a certain way or it would be an "invitation to rape, and even murder". All this coming from a Muslim man, but the faithful gaze in his eye illustrated to me that he saw nothing wrong with this while I just nodded.
LOL, still going strong I see.
I could debate more so. But I just had to reply that you friend is talking complete and uetter bullocks (I think he was kidding you) and you seem to be rather naive to belivie that without actually looking it up,,,sometimes I think you use stuff simply because it futhers your agenda (regardless of how absurd it may be and sounud). The Gambia barely has any Sharia laws (heritage is one case of it ). And there certainly isn't any laws in Hijab . 5 %o the women wear hijab...at MOST. The only women that wear hijab and they only do it sporadically is elder women who have travelled to Mecca, but even they don't do it all the times. "Inviting rape"...LOL.. Have you actually been at the clubs there ? I can tell you for sure I thought I was in the Red Light Districts of Estonia...American clothing style is very popular...I mean very...And none of these women were raped or murdred. By the way there are lots of westernes their...women. And none have been raped yet...hmmm
Man you are funny. I rescently visited the Chechen Resistance home page and they were complaining of how slack Islam was there...LOL what a f**king joke your "friend" was...he was surely playing you.
You have surely outdone yourself this time....
How do you know all of Gambia is Westernized. He was only talking about the area my female friend will be visiting his family at. Furthermore, who said I actually believed him. I just said that he obviously saw nothing wrong with strict Islamic law the way he was talking. You are the one who has outdone yourself...again focusing on trivial facts to skirt around the issue at hand. 
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East_African
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Posted: Tuesday January 9th, 2007 20:32 |
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| Why would one need to join one in the first place?
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stick-upKid
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Posted: Tuesday January 9th, 2007 20:45 |
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If you exclude Muslims then you have to exclude Christians too. Some Christians can be said to worship the west as much as muslims worship Arabs.
If would be stupid to not include muslims. Sometimes a movement needs the piety that only religion brings.
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HatHaruhotep
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Posted: Tuesday January 9th, 2007 21:12 |
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It would be difficult to bring most Black muslims into the Pan Afrikanist movement because their religion refers to all non-muslims as "filthy, pagans, unbelievers, etc" and advises them to stay away from all non-muslims.
The other problem is that their Arab slave Massas will be able to use their worship of Mohammed to water down the movement and place it under Arab control- just as all Black muslims are. Black muslims cannot have a God without the Arabs. Their only link to the Divine is an arab (Mohammed). Afrikan interests and Arab interests are at odds, so who do you think Black muslims will side with? Their own people or the people who they believe connect them with God?
This is a very interesting question!
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FredB
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Posted: Tuesday January 9th, 2007 21:53 |
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A Pan Africanist movement would have to include Islam, Christianity and whatever including Rastafarianism. There is no way I see a movement which includes a significant continental pressence excluding these relgions...
As somebody are you going to exclude Northern Nigeria and include the South...
Don't think so we cannot impose our views of Islam on those at home or on the continent. Form of cultural imperialism and it will never happen.
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The Last African
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Posted: Tuesday January 9th, 2007 22:27 |
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Shemsi en Tehuti wrote:
How do you know all of Gambia is Westernized. He was only talking about the area my female friend will be visiting his family at. Furthermore, who said I actually believed him. I just said that he obviously saw nothing wrong with strict Islamic law the way he was talking. You are the one who has outdone yourself...again focusing on trivial facts to skirt around the issue at hand.
Well for one I have traveled more than half the country. Besides I have relaives in the entire nation (we are talkong about thousands of people) and we travel all the way to meet them (many are old and dieing so my family tries to meet them before they pass away). By the way, the further you go from citys and places where westernnasation is usually spread the less muslim and more traditional african they become. People hang scorpions and spiders to protect against all sorts of shyt. and both you and I know that's hardly islamic. They have all sorts of non-muslims practices around there (more so than usual). And we are talking about places where they have no electricity or even radios...nuff said. Shortly put is there are places with supposed strict Sharia laws , then I nor a 10th of population has heard of those places. Also they are likely not even ruled by the current goverment.
Actually these parts were the most important parts of you otherwise predictable thread. I know it's useless to discuss anything the supposed topic when you can't even get your facts right so I went on the "facts" rather than topic. And there is nothing trivial about that. According to me. I could care less about you issuse. Besides if you don't belivie then don't use his testimony or would you deceive us with lies ?
Bad Shemsi...
But you and I know how it woul go down. So why beat an already dead horse ? I would rather informe those that actually read the thread that The Gambia isn't what you or your friend claims. On the supposed issue. It's been discussed before...in various disguises.
Later
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Vubundada_Kandaba
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Posted: Tuesday January 9th, 2007 23:10 |
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Good Question Shemsi. I think a successful Pan African movement would have to include everybody of all religious denomination on the condition that they do not have other interest or work for other masters. You are absolutely right, most (overwhelming majority) of African Moslems both in Africa and the Diaspora have an Affinity for arabs and most would go to extreme lenghts to defend arab causes and at the same time deny Trans-Arabian Slavery. We have seen it here; right in this board how some people behave without shame and go on worshipping Arabs. However there are few Moslem Pan- Africanist who are dedicated fully to Africa and want nothing to do with Arabs, such as the Nigerian Dr. Tajudeen Abdul Raheem Secretary General of the Pan African Movement who actually worked with us on various projects.
A succesful Pan- Africanist Movement would be one that includes the Diaspora and Black African States and exclude the Northern African Countries of Mauritania, Morrocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt and probably Parts of Sudan particularly the Arab loving North of the Country. The South of Sudan is a hardcore Pan-Africanist land. We will have to keep a close eye on Countries like Somalia, and the Comorros islands and if they are suspected of trying to further arab agendas then we give them the boot and send them packing. I would give Somalia and the Comorros islands a chance until they prove otherwise. The movement would make it clear to all participating Countries that this is a Black African movement only and any country suspected of furthering Western, Chinese or Arab agendas would be booted out. Similarly we would have to keep an eye on Diasporan organisations like the NOI ( Nation of Islam) and if they are suspected of trying to come in and further arab agenda then they are out plain and simple.Last edited on Tuesday January 9th, 2007 23:11 by Vubundada_Kandaba
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Tuesday January 9th, 2007 23:42 |
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Dark Prince wrote:
Well for one I have traveled more than half the country. Besides I have relaives in the entire nation (we are talkong about thousands of people) and we travel all the way to meet them (many are old and dieing so my family tries to meet them before they pass away). By the way, the further you go from citys and places where westernnasation is usually spread the less muslim and more traditional african they become. People hang scorpions and spiders to protect against all sorts of shyt. and both you and I know that's hardly islamic. They have all sorts of non-muslims practices around there (more so than usual). And we are talking about places where they have no electricity or even radios...nuff said. Shortly put is there are places with supposed strict Sharia laws , then I nor a 10th of population has heard of those places. Also they are likely not even ruled by the current goverment.
Actually these parts were the most important parts of you otherwise predictable thread. I know it's useless to discuss anything the supposed topic when you can't even get your facts right so I went on the "facts" rather than topic. And there is nothing trivial about that. According to me. I could care less about you issuse. Besides if you don't belivie then don't use his testimony or would you deceive us with lies ?
Bad Shemsi...
But you and I know how it woul go down. So why beat an already dead horse ? I would rather informe those that actually read the thread that The Gambia isn't what you or your friend claims. On the supposed issue. It's been discussed before...in various disguises.
Later
You seem to be taking this rather personal. It is especially peculiar that you are taking the aspects of the thread-starter at heart that isn't even at the crux of this discussion. Furthermore, I just reported what someone told me from the Gambia, and you are acting like it is my own proclamation. If it is false information, then I am not going to argue about it, especially when I have no knowledge myself. I can't be bothered with it, because it is only diversionary (perhaps intentional) from the the topic at hand.
Last edited on Tuesday January 9th, 2007 23:42 by Shemsi en Tehuti
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Tuesday January 9th, 2007 23:51 |
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Vubundada_Kandaba wrote: Good Question Shemsi. I think a successful Pan African movement would have to include everybody of all religious denomination on the condition that they do not have other interest or work for other masters. You are absolutely right, most (overwhelming majority) of African Moslems both in Africa and the Diaspora have an Affinity for arabs and most would go to extreme lenghts to defend arab causes and at the same time deny Trans-Arabian Slavery. We have seen it here; right in this board how some people behave without shame and go on worshipping Arabs. However there are few Moslem Pan- Africanist who are dedicated fully to Africa and want nothing to do with Arabs, such as the Nigerian Dr. Tajudeen Abdul Raheem Secretary General of the Pan African Movement who actually worked with us on various projects.
A succesful Pan- Africanist Movement would be one that includes the Diaspora and Black African States and exclude the Northern African Countries of Mauritania, Morrocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt and probably Parts of Sudan particularly the Arab loving North of the Country. The South of Sudan is a hardcore Pan-Africanist land. We will have to keep a close eye on Countries like Somalia, and the Comorros islands and if they are suspected of trying to further arab agendas then we give them the boot and send them packing. I would give Somalia and the Comorros islands a chance until they prove otherwise. The movement would make it clear to all participating Countries that this is a Black African movement only and any country suspected of furthering Western, Chinese or Arab agendas would be booted out. Similarly we would have to keep an eye on Diasporan organisations like the NOI ( Nation of Islam) and if they are suspected of trying to come in and further arab agenda then they are out plain and simple.
 ...this is exactly what I was thinking, but I didn't want to say it myself. I think that there would be overwhelmingly enough for a progressive Pan-African movement at least starting with those who are for African progress.
East_African wrote:
Why would one need to join one in the first place?
If you are aware of the situation for indigenous Africans at all, especially in our exploitation by Arabs and Europeans (and the soon coming Chinese), then you would know the answer to that question already.
stick-upKid wrote: If you exclude Muslims then you have to exclude Christians too. Some Christians can be said to worship the west as much as muslims worship Arabs.
Not so sure about that. Christians don't seem quite as hidebound as Muslims, in my opinion.
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MarcusGarveyLives
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Posted: Wednesday January 10th, 2007 07:14 |
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Shemsi en Tehuti wrote Tuesday January 9th, 2007 17:40 : ... Anyhow, to get back on topic...Can there be a successful Pan-African Movement that includes Muslims or Islamic countries when Muslims (both Arab and African) continue to cause the most tragic divisiveness on the Continent long-running for over 1400 years?
************************** Please define what is meant by "a successful Pan African movement". Thank you.
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Judge J
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Posted: Wednesday January 10th, 2007 11:37 |
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To answer the question
HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL NO
History tells us that those people can not be trusted. They will use us for their own evil deeds.
If you don't believe me read Destruction of Black Civilisation by Chancellor Williams
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Wednesday January 10th, 2007 11:53 |
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MarcusGarveyLives wrote: Shemsi en Tehuti wrote Tuesday January 9th, 2007 17:40 : ... Anyhow, to get back on topic...Can there be a successful Pan-African Movement that includes Muslims or Islamic countries when Muslims (both Arab and African) continue to cause the most tragic divisiveness on the Continent long-running for over 1400 years?
**************************
Please define what is meant by "a successful Pan African movement". Thank you.
I have given my definition of Pan-Africanism here before, so I'll just reiterate it again...
Pan-Africanism: The social and political ideology that is inclusive of all indigenous African peoples on the continent and in the Diaspora, seeking to pool all these valuable resources for the collective development, progress, and manifestation of institutions, organizations, nations, politics, economics, industries, philosophies, and ideologies whose central beneficiary is the African where ever he may live.
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Apedemak
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Posted: Wednesday January 10th, 2007 12:31 |
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It wouldn't work.
It'd be like starting a business with a group of people who are closely related. No matter what their affinity to one another takes precidence over the goals of the business and their loyalty to other partners. Wouldn't be long before they turn tide.
No disrespect to the Muslems on board, they know how well their Arab brothers treat them over their real brothers and sisters.
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East_African
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Posted: Saturday January 13th, 2007 16:43 |
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Shemsi en Tehuti wrote: Vubundada_Kandaba wrote: Good Question Shemsi. I think a successful Pan African movement would have to include everybody of all religious denomination on the condition that they do not have other interest or work for other masters. You are absolutely right, most (overwhelming majority) of African Moslems both in Africa and the Diaspora have an Affinity for arabs and most would go to extreme lenghts to defend arab causes and at the same time deny Trans-Arabian Slavery. We have seen it here; right in this board how some people behave without shame and go on worshipping Arabs. However there are few Moslem Pan- Africanist who are dedicated fully to Africa and want nothing to do with Arabs, such as the Nigerian Dr. Tajudeen Abdul Raheem Secretary General of the Pan African Movement who actually worked with us on various projects.
A succesful Pan- Africanist Movement would be one that includes the Diaspora and Black African States and exclude the Northern African Countries of Mauritania, Morrocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt and probably Parts of Sudan particularly the Arab loving North of the Country. The South of Sudan is a hardcore Pan-Africanist land. We will have to keep a close eye on Countries like Somalia, and the Comorros islands and if they are suspected of trying to further arab agendas then we give them the boot and send them packing. I would give Somalia and the Comorros islands a chance until they prove otherwise. The movement would make it clear to all participating Countries that this is a Black African movement only and any country suspected of furthering Western, Chinese or Arab agendas would be booted out. Similarly we would have to keep an eye on Diasporan organisations like the NOI ( Nation of Islam) and if they are suspected of trying to come in and further arab agenda then they are out plain and simple.
Somalia was in anarchy for the last sixteen years.During this time the country was literally kept on his it's feet by "islamists" as they call themselves these days.They ran schools, hospitals, and many other social acitivities.Why would a poor person in somalia care about Pan africanism when it is the islamists that took care of him/her? Pan africanism, as it has developed these days is an extremly idealistic concept and fails to take into consideration regional, political, and social differences on the continent. As a somali i have learnt that politics is a dirty game in which you need to find allies even though they may not be the nicest blokes on the block.For example a state like South Sudan received support from Israel an aparthied style state. Due to the fact they (the northern afro arabs) where getting support from the arab league. Similarly when the late somali dictator had border disputes with Kenya and Ethiopia, he quickly joined the arab league and thus received support from the Arab League and later on the U.S.A to invade to Ethiopia.Take for example a country like Eriteria which is predominantly run in theory by Orthodox Christians and even has armed Islamic Movements campaigning against the Government, got siginificant support from the arab/muslim world against Ethiopia whom was backed by Western powers.Therefore it is not a case of "advancing the arab agenda" rather a case of getting support from those that dislike your enemy and advancing your interests at the same time. When somalia joined the arab league it wasn't or he(Siade Bare) wasn't particularly advancing arab interests but using them to advance his own agenda.Arab countries like Libya and South Yemen where actually supporting the soviets and Ethiopia.
The concept of the struggle between "africanism and Arabism" althought it may exist is rather vague and simplistic and ignores the political realities on the ground. Political allegiances are forever changing and everyone is trying to make friends with whomever they see fit.If there was any morality in politics then why are the Pan africanist in Africa allying themselves with the neo con-zionist movement?Or why are Pan africanists in Sudan allied to dicators like Zenawi?
People like Chinuwezi see the world in black and white and would probably support the ethnic cleansing of all muslims in Africa. When in reality a dirty game is being played in Africa by the Chinese,Americans, Arabs, Islamists and even Africans themselves. If you are weak, divided and poor like in the case of my country than all different groups will piss on you including your own.This is why i don't see no "Pan African Agenda" or "Arab agenda" and whatever else they call it.All i see is clans, tribes, political groups and differnt states competing in power and self determination in Africa.
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Tahliba
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Posted: Saturday January 13th, 2007 17:20 |
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FredB wrote: A Pan Africanist movement would have to include Islam, Christianity and whatever including Rastafarianism. There is no way I see a movement which includes a significant continental pressence excluding these relgions...
As somebody are you going to exclude Northern Nigeria and include the South...
Don't think so we cannot impose our views of Islam on those at home or on the continent. Form of cultural imperialism and it will never happen.
Repeat
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Posted: Saturday January 13th, 2007 18:31 |
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All. Been following this debate along with others involving East African eg Somalia and Ethiopia dispute etc. Generally I read far more than I post and usually only get heavy on things I know and can argue with authority. But I see a classic mistake being made here which is so common with Western Pan Africanists and African-American in particular, with some wise exceptions.
My views come from practial years of being a committed Pan Africanist and based on doing stuff involving other countries and having the basic revoluntionary training and discipline which is established when working in experienced organisation with senior and more experienced people with long background in working in international contexts. At the heart of this for me is a fundamental identity conflict and the notions of responsibilities which comes from a mature and practical expereince of these things, as well as issues regarding responsibilties and lines of demarcation and crucial matters of expertise and who is best-placed to have it.
In fact I have quietly supported East African's views in debates with other brothers, particularly from the US, from the onset based on simple principle, before he clearly demonstrated superior knowledge on the matter of say Somalia than those in question.
In this specific instance I think the question of MGL about basically how you define Pan Africanism is irrelevent and that I would extend that to include what Professor Chinweizu who I am a long-time admirer of, says about it as well. Even though the latter would have more authority given his a Nigerian born there and has a base of operation there.
With the exception of VK and a few others, what the majority of those educated on African-American scholars and their views, no matter how I may agree with many of them is actually irrelvevent for how dyamics will play out in Africa. Islam is in Africa and we can debate how it got there and whether it is truly African or whatever until we turn blue in the face, it is not going to change a thing.
Go to Antigua or Jamaica and tell them about why the Arabs or Chinese there or Lebanese etc are not Africans or Caribbeans or are some outside malignant entity which they are, but that means jack, because they were born there and some have long roots there regardless of how or why they came there.
In fact they will put fire on your arse faster, given that even if you come from there these people spend more time there and given the basic lack of identity and self-hate and just basic mental confusion will say they are Antiguan, Jamaican or whatever. I remember not long ago reading a newspaper in Antigua which had been read by others in the room and I noted a big arse full page Christmas greeting from the top Arab business family in Antigua wishing everybody seasons greetings from the Lebanense community of the island.
Africans do not assert thier African identity becuse they are Caribbean or Antiguan, but in big bold print these same 'Antiguans' are asserting their Arab/Lebanese loyalties and some of them have been there almost 100 years. Nobody saw it discussion worthy and I was not going to raise it becaues I know the Caribbean lack of identity and self-hate in many no critical quarters.
You do any serious business, be it political or commericial or at governmental level. You don't raise that sh*t, you note that sh*t, because if you do you will end up in beef with much wider rammifications than you would like or intend. So you focus and stick to the things where there are strong common agreements and equally mutual interests and benefits, until you can make moves on those type of things and issues.
Facts. We simply have to deal with that reality and be sophisticated enough either to accentuate it or find other ways that creates conciousness and solidarity amongst Africans in the islands in question. But even here that has to be led by those on the ground not those elsewhere.
Our job is to support, not to lead or to take serious or unecessary confrontational or conflict generating approaches. Makes no sense and no serious or experience solider would waste his or her's time.
As I said what do you do with Muslims in Nigeria and furthermore that is not a conversation that I would be foolhardy enough to take up with Nigerians at home and definitely not abroad. If people want to incite civil war as one extreme example in the Caribbean or Africa fine, but let that come from elsewhere. I know how I stand and who I will support and how I will do so.
Because if any outside force dare rasie their arse in my country, be they black or not, Pan Africanist or not and threaten to create unrest there which is not driven by local or indigenous people I know how my military and security instincts would manifetst. I have observed in life when you own and defend nothing you can seek to promote, defend or claim everything as yours and your right. But when you have defended that which is yours and is descrete and specific and precise you think twice about claiming that which is not yours and offending those whose rights and obligations it truly is in the final analysis and whose claims in actuality is greater than yours.
As any solider knows all claims come from two sources. You specific orders and roles and responsibilities within a very very specific context and time. Secondly the land or space you stand on and control or do not control or that in which your claims and rights are unquestionable.
Nothing else really matters.
Peace.
FB
Hi Tallibah...Long time..
FB
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Apedemak
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Posted: Sunday January 14th, 2007 14:43 |
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A relevant opinion posted on The Black list after the Sierra Leone People's Democratic Leagues secretary Mr A.B. Bah wrote a news letter denouncing the execution of, ''His Excellency President Saddam Hussein''.
Will post the newsletter in the News room.
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