| Author | |
|---|
stick-upKid
Villager
| Joined: | Wednesday August 10th, 2005 |
| Location: | United Kingdom |
| Posts: | 1328 |
| Photo: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
| Mana: |    |
Click here for your Black Profile
Search for Black Sites
|
Posted: Sunday May 7th, 2006 18:13 |
|
After reading a few bits I started to wonder about the hidden face of the Slave Trade: the African trader.
The economics of slavery meant that whole villages/empires in Africa must have profited from slavery, if not activelly involved in rounding up people etc. Therefore as Free Africans did we have a similar role to ordinary white people in cities like Bristol and Liverpool?
Its time to ask the painful question:
Do Africans owe slave descendents an Apology?
Should Africans take more of the share of blame for slavery than the white man?
Last edited on Sunday May 7th, 2006 18:16 by stick-upKid
____________________
They want you to Forget History.
They want you to Forgive Injustice.
____________________
Click here for your Black Profile
|
Kunjufu
Villager
Click here for your Black Profile
Search for Black Sites
|
Posted: Sunday May 7th, 2006 18:26 |
|
| Hmmm...simple question can you seriously compare the African involvement in the slave trade to that of the European on a like for like basis...is that a FAIR analysis of what happened?
____________________
African heart, African mind
____________________
www.blacksearch.co.uk - Helping to promote Black African and Caribbean Websites
|
bubz
Villager
| Joined: | Saturday January 29th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 752 |
| Photo: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
| Mana: | |
Click here for your Black Profile
Search for Black Sites
|
Posted: Sunday May 7th, 2006 18:30 |
|
did africans keep any records of their involvement? what about stories passed down orally?
we dont know much about just how involved africans were although we do know there was some involvement.
i think its a sensitive subject.
____________________
Click here for your Black Profile
|
stick-upKid
Villager
| Joined: | Wednesday August 10th, 2005 |
| Location: | United Kingdom |
| Posts: | 1328 |
| Photo: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
| Mana: | |
Click here for your Black Profile
Search for Black Sites
|
Posted: Sunday May 7th, 2006 18:32 |
|
My point is that Africans have got a bit of a free ride. All eyes of blame has been on the white man and the Arab.
But realistically, indigenous involvement must have been quite substantial when you think of the volume of the Slave Trade. Its just that Africans have kept no records and haven't passed stories of this shameful period onto their children.
Anyways, I wanna know what people think.
____________________
They want you to Forget History.
They want you to Forgive Injustice.
____________________
www.blacksearch.co.uk - Helping to promote Black African and Caribbean Websites
|
stick-upKid
Villager
| Joined: | Wednesday August 10th, 2005 |
| Location: | United Kingdom |
| Posts: | 1328 |
| Photo: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
| Mana: | |
Click here for your Black Profile
Search for Black Sites
|
Posted: Sunday May 7th, 2006 18:33 |
|
@ bubz ---snap
____________________
They want you to Forget History.
They want you to Forgive Injustice.
____________________
Click here for your Black Profile
|
Masai05
Villager
Click here for your Black Profile
Search for Black Sites
|
Posted: Sunday May 7th, 2006 18:40 |
|
Do Africans owe slave descendents an Apology?
No, because Africans that remained on the Continent after their Fathers, Mothers, Brothers/Sisters and Cousins were shipped got their arses kicked as a result of lack of foresight, man power and trust. Myself being a proud descendant of slaves would not accept that apology, I don't deem it as necessary.
Given the fact that Africa lost a lot of human capital, highly skilled labor (best and brightest) and a chance to compete as well as Sovereignty, they fell into a pitifull situation and eventually became the European and Arabs pet Donkeys. I only require acknowledgement in Scholarly texts as a way to document FACTS and to place the African experience into proper perspective, so we can move on.
What Africa needs to do in a collective sense is to do away with the current slave institutions found within its borders.
Should Africans take more of the share of blame for slavery than the white man?
Blame is pointless. The richest areas on the Planet barely survive. People living on less than $1 a day? It would be different if Africans collectilvey controlled and held most of the worlds's wealth but the bad decisions of the past have lead to a pretty sorry situation collectively.
Africans presently should shoulder the responsibility for corruption, misappropriation of funds and a lack of investment in human capital. They should share more Blame for Creating the Zuma's of Africa.
The slave trade was one of the worse episodes in the history of human kind. No one EVER mentions the Estimated 36 Million Africans that went into Asia. The men became Eunichs (Azz toys for gay arabs and Chinese) and the women became part of herems. The Children were murdered. In the America's many Millions were stripped of their Identities, Religions and belief in the Black man. In Africa, wars are being fought by Africans against Africans in the name of two Alien Religions, Christianity and Islam. Places that birthed organized Education, Medicine, Iron working and Civilization are now dependent on Isrealis, Germans, Americans, Cubans and Russains to build Roads, provide medical assistance, educate populations and discover minerals and pump Oil out ot the ground to enrich foreign places. An Apology will get us where? Acknowledgement will likely kill some of the unwarranted arrogance "SOME" Africans harbor towards others due to their faint knowledge of African histories.
Just my Thoughts-Masai05
____________________
Say it LOUD! "I'M BLACK and I'M PROUD!"
____________________
www.blacksearch.co.uk - Helping to promote Black African and Caribbean Websites
|
Kunjufu
Villager
Click here for your Black Profile
Search for Black Sites
|
Posted: Sunday May 7th, 2006 18:40 |
|
| Agreed that there must have been a lot of Africans involved in slavery...but come on how can you compare it to Europeans... Plus you present it as if Africans benefits to the same extent as Europeans or Arabs did and thats for me is dishonest...critique yes daming for the sake of damning sorry but thats not right..
____________________
African heart, African mind
____________________
Click here for your Black Profile
|
Saida.M
Super Moderator
| Joined: | Tuesday November 11th, 2003 |
| Location: | RACIST UK |
| Posts: | 3963 |
| Photo: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
| Mana: | |
Click here for your Black Profile
Search for Black Sites
|
Posted: Sunday May 7th, 2006 18:44 |
|
bubz wrote: did africans keep any records of their involvement? what about stories passed down orally?
we dont know much about just how involved africans were although we do know there was some involvement.
i think its a sensitive subject.
We do know don't we? This is one of the reason why we need to teach; to stop people continuously asking these questions. Why would anyone want to look to blame us, (Africans), anyway, when we were/ARE the victims?
That's like searching you for stolen goods after you'd reported being robbed!
Damn right it's a sensitive subject - best left alone methinks.
____________________
People readily believe lies before they believe the truth
"One of the heads of the beast seemed to have been fatally wounded, but the wound had healed. The whole earth was amazed and followed the beast".
Good News Bible. Rev. Ch.13 V.3
____________________
www.blacksearch.co.uk - Helping to promote Black African and Caribbean Websites
|
Masai05
Villager
Click here for your Black Profile
Search for Black Sites
|
Posted: Sunday May 7th, 2006 18:47 |
|
"did africans keep any records of their involvement? what about stories passed down orally?
we dont know much about just how involved africans were although we do know there was some involvement.
i think its a sensitive subject."
Sensitive is for sissies! All this Mighty Afro-centric Brain power and people get bogged down emotionally for closet cleaning?? That is weak! If it makes people "cry" then so be it! We need to tackle this as to rebuild the trust so we can rebuild empires!
Last edited on Sunday May 7th, 2006 18:48 by Masai05
____________________
Say it LOUD! "I'M BLACK and I'M PROUD!"
____________________
Click here for your Black Profile
|
stick-upKid
Villager
| Joined: | Wednesday August 10th, 2005 |
| Location: | United Kingdom |
| Posts: | 1328 |
| Photo: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
| Mana: | |
Click here for your Black Profile
Search for Black Sites
|
Posted: Sunday May 7th, 2006 18:50 |
|
Masai05 wrote: Do Africans owe slave descendents an Apology?
Acknowledgement will likely kill some of the unwarranted arrogance "SOME" Africans harbor towards others due to their faint knowledge of African histories.
--
@ Kunjufu. As a Born African I feel I am in the position to ask this question. I am searching not Damning.
@ Masai. Exactly -- some blacker than thou types need to be countered.
____________________
They want you to Forget History.
They want you to Forgive Injustice.
____________________
www.blacksearch.co.uk - Helping to promote Black African and Caribbean Websites
|
Miss Nellia
Villager
| Joined: | Saturday August 13th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 1266 |
| Photo: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
| Mana: | |
Click here for your Black Profile
Search for Black Sites
|
Posted: Sunday May 7th, 2006 18:52 |
|
Masai05 wrote: Do Africans owe slave descendents an Apology?
No, because Africans that remained on the Continent after their Fathers, Mothers, Brothers/Sisters and Cousins were shipped got their arses kicked as a result of lack of foresight, man power and trust. Myself being a proud descendant of slaves would not accept that apology, I don't deem it as necessary.
Given the fact that Africa lost a lot of human capital, highly skilled labor (best and brightest) and a chance to compete as well as Sovereignty, they fell into a pitifull situation and eventually became the European and Arabs pet Donkeys. I only require acknowledgement in Scholarly texts as a way to document FACTS and to place the African experience into proper perspective, so we can move on.
What Africa needs to do in a collective sense is to do away with the current slave institutions found within its borders.
Should Africans take more of the share of blame for slavery than the white man?
Blame is pointless. The richest areas on the Planet barely survive. People living on less than $1 a day? It would be different if Africans collectilvey controlled and held most of the worlds's wealth but the bad decisions of the past have lead to a pretty sorry situation collectively.
Africans presently should shoulder the responsibility for corruption, misappropriation of funds and a lack of investment in human capital. They should share more Blame for Creating the Zuma's of Africa.
The slave trade was one of the worse episodes in the history of human kind. No one EVER mentions the Estimated 36 Million Africans that went into Asia. The men became Eunichs (Azz toys for gay arabs and Chinese) and the women became part of herems. The Children were murdered. In the America's many Millions were stripped of their Identities, Religions and belief in the Black man. In Africa, wars are being fought by Africans against Africans in the name of two Alien Religions, Christianity and Islam. Places that birthed organized Education, Medicine, Iron working and Civilization are now dependent on Isrealis, Germans, Americans, Cubans and Russains to build Roads, provide medical assistance, educate populations and discover minerals and pump Oil out ot the ground to enrich foreign places. An Apology will get us where? Acknowledgement will likely kill some of the unwarranted arrogance "SOME" Africans harbor towards others due to their faint knowledge of African histories.
Just my Thoughts-Masai05
 WELL SAID
An apology would infer that I feel like a victum, and I don't. Europeans, Arabs and Asians need to be apologising and compensating, Africa is the only continent that did not benefit from the slave trade, as long as lessons were learnt I'm cool.
____________________
Click here for your Black Profile
|
Masai05
Villager
Click here for your Black Profile
Search for Black Sites
|
Posted: Sunday May 7th, 2006 18:53 |
|
stick-upKid wrote: Masai05 wrote: Do Africans owe slave descendents an Apology?
Acknowledgement will likely kill some of the unwarranted arrogance "SOME" Africans harbor towards others due to their faint knowledge of African histories.
--
@ Kunjufu. As a Born African I feel I am in the position to ask this question. I am searching not Damning.
@ Masai. Exactly -- some blacker than thou types need to be countered.
@Stic :
Nobody likes to admit fault, until people learn to read, research and reveal there will always be pointless aggresion due to ignorance. I say we get it out and move forward... i'm not interested in Reparations payments from Africans, only those Euros and Arabs who continue to exploit us.
____________________
Say it LOUD! "I'M BLACK and I'M PROUD!"
____________________
www.blacksearch.co.uk - Helping to promote Black African and Caribbean Websites
|
DSP
Villager
| Joined: | Thursday January 6th, 2005 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 3849 |
| Photo: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
| Mana: | |
Click here for your Black Profile
Search for Black Sites
|
Posted: Sunday May 7th, 2006 18:58 |
|
Africans could share the blame of the slave trade, but slave abuse I don't think so.
Furthermore, Europeans and Arabs weren't all that fair when trading slaves. The same African that sold slaves could himself be enslaved and sent abroad. Many diasporans were also slave traders. Many West Indians and American blacks also owned slaves. Read the book "Before the Mayflower". Evidence is also in DNA testing. A British man of Jamaican heritage found out that his DNA could be traced back to a Muslim slave trader from Mali who himself was captured and enslaved, so in that regard Africans(diaspora included) had a hand to play.
At the same time, African slavery allows upward mobility and integration into the culture as opposed to European/American slavery. One of the ethnic groups I am a part of that participated in slavery and sold prisoners of war, who did not want to assimilate into the culture of the our ethnic group who conquered them. Once you assimilated you were free and granted and with full authority and rights as other members of the ethnic group/nation.
You can assimilate in America all you want, you're still 2nd or 3rd class and a N****r.
Last edited on Sunday May 7th, 2006 19:01 by DSP
____________________
http://www.dspmarket.com
http://www.quantumcritics.com
____________________
Click here for your Black Profile
|
bubz
Villager
| Joined: | Saturday January 29th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 752 |
| Photo: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
| Mana: | |
Click here for your Black Profile
Search for Black Sites
|
Posted: Sunday May 7th, 2006 19:05 |
|
Kunjufu wrote: Agreed that there must have been a lot of Africans involved in slavery...but come on how can you compare it to Europeans...
personally, when i wonder about the involvement of africans in the whole sorry business - i do not compare what some of them did to what europeans and arabs did. it isnt really about making comparisons to me, rather trying to learn more about what really happened.
Plus you present it as if Africans benefits to the same extent as Europeans or Arabs did and thats for me is dishonest...critique yes daming for the sake of damning sorry but thats not right..
at the time africans probly were not benefiting to the same extent as the europeans or arabs BUT the fact remains they must have been benefiting and the benefits they were receiving were obviously making it worthwhile for them to continue doing it.
____________________
www.blacksearch.co.uk - Helping to promote Black African and Caribbean Websites
|
Breadfruit
Super Moderator
| Joined: | Sunday September 5th, 2004 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 2372 |
| Photo: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
| Mana: | |
Click here for your Black Profile
Search for Black Sites
|
Posted: Sunday May 7th, 2006 19:06 |
|
stick-upKid wrote: Do Africans owe slave descendents an Apology?
NO!
Should Africans take more of the share of blame for slavery than the white man?
NO!
The European Slave Trade started when the European greed after "Discovering" the Americas, prompted them to de-populate Africa.
They then continued with this greed and Colonised the whole African Continent.
Africans implicit in these crimes, however many they may have been, pale in significance in regards to the European nation states that grew from feudal to Space age economies via their exploitation of non white peoples bodies, minds, lands and natural resources.
To blame the African for the European Slave Trade through sell-out or implicit behaviour is like blaming the Native American for losing their Continent through sell-outs; blaming the Aboriginal people for losing their rights in Australia through sell-outs; blaming the Jews for their holocaust through sell-outs; blaming the Indian people for being colonised because of sell-outs
Blaming the African people for being colonised by Europeans because of sell-outs.
The power of the European nations over others has been not only about the physical violence which has no precedence in human history; but the violence impacted on human minds that has not only changed the facts of history and their exploitative past.....
White supremacy has placed the African as the perpetrator in their own exploitation even though Africa and African society has not advanced economically from both the tremendous profit making phenomena of Slavery and Colonialism.
Africans did not ask for slavery just as we did not ask for colonialism. African Mass participation in Colonialism was far greater that that of the Slave Trade but who asks Africans to apologise for that?
No one, because that would be stupid
But that same backward dynamic is played out today when we are incarcerated, and then blamed for our dis-portionate imprisonment.
When our children fail at school, we are blamed.
Drugs in our communities, we are blamed.
Riots in Birmingham, it must be the fault of Blacknet Village, government ministers speculate.
Frantz Fanon said correctly the colonised are not in control of their minds.
The court says without evidence we cannot convict and if the accuser continues we will have to inspect his mind for schizophrenia.
____________________
History is a people's memory, and without a memory, man is demoted to the lower animals
Malcolm X (1925 - 1965)
____________________
Click here for your Black Profile
|
bubz
Villager
| Joined: | Saturday January 29th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 752 |
| Photo: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
| Mana: | |
Click here for your Black Profile
Search for Black Sites
|
Posted: Sunday May 7th, 2006 19:13 |
|
athaba wrote: bubz wrote: did africans keep any records of their involvement? what about stories passed down orally?
we dont know much about just how involved africans were although we do know there was some involvement.
i think its a sensitive subject.
We do know don't we? This is one of the reason why we need to teach; to stop people continuously asking these questions. Why would anyone want to look to blame us, (Africans), anyway, when we were/ARE the victims?
That's like searching you for stolen goods after you'd reported being robbed!
Damn right it's a sensitive subject - best left alone methinks.
I dont agree that it is best left alone. i would love to believe that african involvement was minimal. it probably was but there are sometimes conflicting stories and obviously its hard to know what to believe. my greatest hope is that whatever africans did, we have learnt our lesson and realise where we went wrong. my fear is that the same characteristics/traits that got our people into the fine mess we appear to be in now are still with us.
i dont think its a case of 'blaming' africans for what happened but i do think its important for us descendants of slaves to explore these issues. there is often a feeling that continental africans see descendants of those who were enslaved as inferior to them and i think its because some choose not to acknowledge the role in it that some of their own ancestors would have played. if people recognised this then maybe they would see that they are in no position to look down on an african descendant in the caribbean or the americas.
____________________
www.blacksearch.co.uk - Helping to promote Black African and Caribbean Websites
|
Soulstarr
Villager
| Joined: | Saturday October 16th, 2004 |
| Location: | London, United Kingdom |
| Posts: | 2190 |
| Photo: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
| Mana: | |
Click here for your Black Profile
Search for Black Sites
|
Posted: Sunday May 7th, 2006 19:21 |
|
bubz wrote:
I dont agree that it is best left alone. i would love to believe that african involvement was minimal. it probably was but there are sometimes conflicting stories and obviously its hard to know what to believe. my greatest hope is that whatever africans did, we have learnt our lesson and realise where we went wrong. my fear is that the same characteristics/traits that got our people into the fine mess we appear to be in now are still with us.
i dont think its a case of 'blaming' africans for what happened but i do think its important for us descendants of slaves to explore these issues. there is often a feeling that continental africans see descendants of those who were enslaved as inferior to them and i think its because some choose not to acknowledge the role in it that some of their own ancestors would have played. if people recognised this then maybe they would see that they are in no position to look down on an african descendant in the caribbean or the americas.
____________________
____________________
Click here for your Black Profile
|
bubz
Villager
| Joined: | Saturday January 29th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 752 |
| Photo: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
| Mana: | |
Click here for your Black Profile
Search for Black Sites
|
Posted: Sunday May 7th, 2006 19:32 |
|
i sometimes have to wonder what is wrong with african people.
first the arabs dominated us for over 1000 years, the atrocities they committed i am just now getting to know about. then the europeans took over and they were pretty brutal too. you only have to open a newspaper or switch on the news to see that we are still not having an easy time of it in most places in the world.
i know we did not have the technological advances they had (gun) and we did not have enough aggression or the correct mindset to wipe out all invaders/attackers, and that is why we were overcome by these foreign oppressors. i know this.
BUT if this is the case... does anyone wonder whether we will ever get the boots off our necks? if we are the same people as we always were (easy enough to oppress/enslave/exploit) how much have we really changed and are we likely to change much more?
it scares me to think like that but i cannot help it sometimes. if we havent changed (or arent changing) we are doomed because i can bet no one else (other races) is going to change suddenly into nice kind people that dont wish to abuse us, annihilate us and help themselves to our riches.
____________________
www.blacksearch.co.uk - Helping to promote Black African and Caribbean Websites
|
Kunjufu
Villager
Click here for your Black Profile
Search for Black Sites
|
Posted: Sunday May 7th, 2006 20:20 |
|
stick-upKid wrote: After reading a few bits I started to wonder about the hidden face of the Slave Trade: the African trader.
The economics of slavery meant that whole villages/empires in Africa must have profited from slavery, if not activelly involved in rounding up people etc. Therefore as Free Africans did we have a similar role to ordinary white people in cities like Bristol and Liverpool?
Its time to ask the painful question:
Do Africans owe slave descendents an Apology?
Should Africans take more of the share of blame for slavery than the white man?
Sorry stick up- but you know this question is just too dishonest for words...and you're diversion of thie issue as one of a 'blacker than thou' is imo out of order..
Look if you're gonna ask the questions, then at the very least get the context right and then get the damned question right..
My legitimate point to you in the context of your questions above, is how in the hell can one compare African involvement on the same like for like basis as European involvement in slavery...its a falacy,...
You asked: Therefore as Free Africans did we have a similar role to ordinary white people in cities like Bristol and Liverpool?
What I am asking you objectively is where is the evidence to suggest that ANY African nation profited to the SAME extent as Europeans did, Show me evidence of an African port that can belegitimately compared to Bristol, Liverpool or Cardiff in the extent that they would have benefited from the wealth of Slavery as the Europreans did?.. because if your assertions were half right that evidence sould be there today non?
You further speculate..(and thats all it is), that African empires 'must have profited' you didn't use the word could have, or might have..you said MUST have profited... If that was clearly the case then I would agree with your call for an apology.. but come on clearly there is no evidence of that EVER happening...and you know why I know this could not have happened?
Because if it had, do you really imagine that Europeans would not have raised this evidence by now, thrown this evidence in our collective faces by now...? So YOU come on, if you're going to have a debate then make it legitimate one and stop with this nonsense defencive posturing when people naturally question the obvious HOLES in your analysis..
Last edited on Sunday May 7th, 2006 21:12 by Kunjufu
____________________
African heart, African mind
____________________
Click here for your Black Profile
|
King Capo
Villager
| Joined: | Monday July 25th, 2005 |
| Location: | New York USA |
| Posts: | 192 |
| Photo: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
| Mana: | |
Click here for your Black Profile
Search for Black Sites
|
Posted: Sunday May 7th, 2006 21:01 |
|
Just because you get beat in a bad deal, doesnt mean you didnt participate in the dealings.
Last edited on Sunday May 7th, 2006 21:35 by King Capo
____________________
www.blacksearch.co.uk - Helping to promote Black African and Caribbean Websites
|
stick-upKid
Villager
| Joined: | Wednesday August 10th, 2005 |
| Location: | United Kingdom |
| Posts: | 1328 |
| Photo: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
| Mana: | |
Click here for your Black Profile
Search for Black Sites
|
Posted: Sunday May 7th, 2006 21:05 |
|
@ Kunjufu
I guess you have to be an oxford scientist to post a discussion.
I never clamed to know it all. Chill-the-f*ck-out.
How can millions of slaves get sold and the sellers not make a profit???
Its child's logic SURELY. Somebody was profiting and it was NOT ONLY Europeans!
I ONLY want to get people to talk about it. THAT IS ALL.
____________________
They want you to Forget History.
They want you to Forgive Injustice.
____________________
Click here for your Black Profile
|
stick-upKid
Villager
| Joined: | Wednesday August 10th, 2005 |
| Location: | United Kingdom |
| Posts: | 1328 |
| Photo: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
| Mana: | |
Click here for your Black Profile
Search for Black Sites
|
Posted: Sunday May 7th, 2006 21:44 |
|
PART 2 @ Kunjufu
The more I read your last post the more I shake my head in amazement.
First you suggest that only White Men had the brain power to make money out of a Billion DOLLAR industry-- which slavery WAS.
Then you imply that because there is no evidence by a WHITE MAN of profiting African traders then it must mean that none exist?
Are you seriously wanting to go down this road, Kunjufu?
____________________
They want you to Forget History.
They want you to Forgive Injustice.
____________________
www.blacksearch.co.uk - Helping to promote Black African and Caribbean Websites
|
DtotheJ
Villager
| Joined: | Friday September 30th, 2005 |
| Location: | New Jersey USA |
| Posts: | 1882 |
| Photo: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
| Mana: | |
Click here for your Black Profile
Search for Black Sites
|
Posted: Monday May 8th, 2006 18:04 |
|
