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Tahliba Villager
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Posted: Monday May 28th, 2007 11:04 |
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Anti-Immigrant in Black Face?
by Bill Fletcher; Black Commentator; May 26, 2007
The picture in the ad immediately caught my attention. The photo was of a very dignified older African American man looking into the camera, very determined and equally pensive. Underneath his photo was a caption giving his name "T. Willard Fair" and the fact that he was the veteran of 40 years of struggle in the Civil Rights Movement.
This was certainly enough to pique my interest.
Beneath the caption was a statement declaring that the alleged threat to African Americans comes from documented and undocumented immigrants. He went on to suggest that any notion of legalizing undocumented workers was a slap in the face of African Americans. The ad is associated with a group called the "Coalition for the Future American Worker."
Fair's attack is not surprising, although the virulence and historical nature of it is very unsettling, particularly because it is bound to strike a chord among many African Americans.
Black America has been taking a prolonged economic hit since the mid 1970s. The economic reorganization which many people call de-industrialization has had a devastating impact on the Black worker, disproportionately so. The elimination and/or shrinkage of manufacturing jobs in urban centers has had the effect of hollowing out entire communities, destabilizing Black America economically, socially and politically. Rather than the flight of the so-called middle class, Black America has witnessed the disintegration of segments of its working class and professional/managerial class.
This crisis began well before there was a significant influx of immigrants, and it is this crisis that has been haunting us. This crisis has been compounded by the right-wing political assault on the public sector, largely through anti-tax revolts and privatization, which has resulted in both a decline in services and a decline in employment (with the latter also having a disproportionate impact on the Black worker).
Fair and his coalition mention nothing about this, which in and of itself is quite significant. Instead they focus on the competition from the immigrant worker. While competition exists, particularly in very low wage work, the problem does not lie with the immigrants but with the desire on the part of employers to find workers who will accept the lowest possible wages. This has been demonstrated in any number of industries, not the least of which was the janitorial industry during the 1980s that went from very African American to very Latino after the industry was reorganized.
Fair makes it appear that immigrants are the ones closing steel mills and auto plants. They are not. Fair acts as if the immigrant workers are carrying out ethnic cleansing against African Americans. They are not. We are, however, being cleansed from entire industries because of the greed of employers who are always looking at the bottom line and who seek the cheapest possible workforce, and eventually, if possible, no human workforce at all, but just a line of robots.
Instead of Fair and his grouping focusing on the policies that have been destroying African American employment, they instead pick the easy - and wrong - target of the immigrant. And, it is easy to pick the immigrant. For instance, in the construction industry, an industry that African Americans, along with non- immigrant Latinos (particularly Puerto Ricans and Chicanos) and Asians fought for years to get into, immigrant workers are increasing dramatically as a significant proportion of the workforce. What is noteworthy is that this is happening largely in the lower-paid, non-union construction workforce where, once again, the "logic" of capitalism prevails in the search for a low-wage workforce. While the Black worker wants a construction job, s/he is not looking for low-wage construction work with no benefits. Consider the conditions into which Latino immigrant construction workers were placed when many were brought to New Orleans for the reconstruction of the city. Under non-union conditions, they were often housed in a prison-like environment, and frequently cheated out of pay.
No, Mr. Fair and your cohorts, the problem is not the immigrant worker. The problem is the system. And, just as African American workers were used in certain industries as low-wage workers in the late 19th and early-to-mid 20th centuries, in order to undercut higher paid workers, this changed dramatically through a combination of unionization and the Black Freedom Movement.
What lessons can we draw from this?
* As long as there is a vulnerable workforce, capitalists will seek them out to utilize against other workers.
* Low-wage workers will not be competitors if they cease being low-wage workers, i.e., if they are unionized and gain power in their workplaces or jobs.
* Part of changing the character of work can be found in the demands of a social movement that combines the fight for political and social justice, with economic justice. To a great extent, the crisis facing the Black worker today can be linked to the failure of the Black Freedom Movement to pursue the path suggested by Dr. King toward the end of his life, that united the fights for racial justice with economic justice along with what later came to be known as global justice.
Without disrespecting the life and history of Mr. Fair, who I am sure made contributions to our struggle for justice, somewhere along the line he fell prey to the emotional and hallucinatory appeal of attacking immigrants as a means of saving the Black worker. Not only is this morally bankrupt, but it is also politically bankrupt. If we do not have an accurate analysis of the problem, we cannot possibly develop a good strategy to resolve it. Or, perhaps it was better and more succinctly put by the Cheshire Cat in Alice in Wonderland when he said, "if you don't know where you want to go, any road will get you there."
BC Editorial Board member, Bill Fletcher, Jr. is a long-time labor and international activist and writer.
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CeeCee Villager
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Posted: Tuesday May 29th, 2007 16:09 |
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Tahliba,
We cannot fault the workers who hire them, we have to fault the private sector and our government who hires them. Honestly, I know if I were in theri shoes, I would trying to get over the border and get me one of those jobs. I'm African-American, but if my job was lost to an immigrant, I would not be mad at them, because like I said, they are only taking advantage of them telling them come and get the job them taking it. On top of that , we refuse to work them( and I still have this attitdue because many of those guys who take it are sometimes exploited , mistreated and underpaid)I cannot deal with that.
Here is another thing that some Black people should also consider: Not all of these people who are hiring them are always non-Black. I remembered reading an article in this local Black publication about a Black owned construction company, that laid off their OWN Black and other American workers and hired the immigrant workers because of cheap labor and supposedly they were lazy( I wish I could get in the article and let you look at it. It's a two-three year old article , but I had the hardest time trying to look for it as the archieve is so long, but if I ever come across it, I'll let you see what I'm talking about)When I looked at that, I was very embarrassed , saying to myself, " Think about the slavery days, when the White slaverowners used us for cheap labor "on top of that, a person should be hired on their work merit , not becauase of what they think an immigrant may do.If they were lazy then you fire them, but you're going to tell me that all of those men were lazy? Please!
I may not get mad at them for it, but I have to agree with that man, ithe more that they come and take the jobs , I do see Blacklash with a Blackface on it. Some of us will not automatically look at the government/private sectors fault, they are going to take out on the immigrants because of it and because as I have noticed, especially when it 's a non-Black problem, some try to use it ,as a partial excuse to get rid of the American workers, especially the Black one( Which still in spite of it, acoording to the NAACP and EEOC, it's considered to be racial discrimination if it's Black/non- Black immigrant and the employee being non-Black and with the White people, bias and/or reverse discrimination. They so cocky they don't realize this whether it is or not). and Lastly m, when they mean immigrant, that means every immigrant around the world. Too often when they mean it, it doesn't apply to immigrant of African descent. In that case, there should be many haitians here also. That is another issue some of us get angry at( far as that issue, the anger would be just.)
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milesdavis Villager

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Posted: Wednesday May 30th, 2007 23:44 |
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Jesse Jackson actually hired buses to bring displaced African Americans from New Orleans back to work on the clean up effort. No one showed up. Except for illegal immigrants who want to work.
There are plenty of jobs available if people want to work.
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Happiness Super Moderator

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Posted: Thursday May 31st, 2007 00:38 |
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milesdavis wrote: Jesse Jackson actually hired buses to bring displaced African Americans from New Orleans back to work on the clean up effort. No one showed up. Except for illegal immigrants who want to work.
There are plenty of jobs available if people want to work.
  
unemployment in this country is very low - if AAs can't find jobs it is because they are not looking and not because of immigrants. I am tired of that sorry assed excuse.
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If you think that the only way you can survive is in the misuse of people,
then you haven't even begun to think about what it means to be human" ~ Dr C.T.Vivian
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101stAirborne Villager
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Posted: Thursday May 31st, 2007 00:54 |
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A more realistic look by La Shawn Barber:
No wonder some blacks think we’re the most put-upon group on the planet.
First blacks had to deal with legal race discrimination during Jim Crow. Then we had to take on disparate impact “discrimination.� Now some are running to the EEOC because employers are passing them over for…illegal aliens.
As blacks continue losing jobs to criminals hired by criminals, expect to read about more EEOC lawsuits. The question is will blacks finally organize and come out strongly against illegal immigration, forcing Democrats (who can’t win elections without the “black vote�) to do something about it?
Until a thing negatively affects us, we generally don’t pay much attention to it. To many blacks, Hispanics were just another minority group, united as brothers-in-arms against “white oppression.� Now that employers are skipping over American citizens to hire people who ought to be in a jail cell instead of an employment office, I hope to see all Americans, especially blacks, unite against the tide of foreigners flouting our laws and changing our culture for the worst. That’s a new kind of oppression.
Doug Giles has a request for would-be border jumpers and lays out of litany of charges against a they-come-here-to-work criminal class:
Would you mind immigrating legally and learning English? Because, you see, our legal citizens are getting increasingly fed up with your criminal relocation dreams. That’s right. Our American buddies on the Arizona, California, New Mexico and Texas borders are especially sick of . . .
• Having their land trashed like a hotel room after Motley Crew spent the weekend there. [One Indian Reservation picks up trash to the tune of six tons a day. Would you please stop that? It’s rude, and it’s threatening the existence of a certain lizard and the Sonoran Pronghorn antelope. Thanks.]
• Having their ranches’ fencing routinely cut and vandalized.
• Having to pick up your pill bottles, used needles and syringes.
• Having to find the half eaten remains of their pets left from one of your impromptu BBQ’s.
• Having their homes burglarized.
• Having their daughters raped.
• Having their vehicles stolen.
• Having their property value plummet.
• Having their sedate streets become unsafe requiring their children to be placed under lock and key after sunset.
• Having to pick up and discard Muslim prayer rugs and literature strafed about the place. [BTW . . . when did so many Catholic Mexicans convert to Islam? I didn’t get that brief. Would you explain that to me?]
• Having the arduous and unpleasant chore of scraping human feces off their front lawns in the morning.
Not too many illegal aliens will read Giles’s column, of course, but the point is made. I was invited to live-blog tomorrow night’s State of the Union address, but I prefer to listen in the comfort of my home. All I want to hear from Bush is what he plans to do about the scourge of illegal immigration. I have no patience for his patriotic preening, posturing, and pontificating on the “war on terrorism� while ignoring terrorism of a different sort on our own soil.
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101stAirborne Villager
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Posted: Thursday May 31st, 2007 01:12 |
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Tahliba wrote:
Anti-Immigrant in Black Face?
by Bill Fletcher; Black Commentator; May 26, 2007
The picture in the ad immediately caught my attention. The photo was of a very dignified older African American man looking into the camera, very determined and equally pensive. Underneath his photo was a caption giving his name "T. Willard Fair" and the fact that he was the veteran of 40 years of struggle in the Civil Rights Movement.
This was certainly enough to pique my interest.
Beneath the caption was a statement declaring that the alleged threat to African Americans comes from documented and undocumented immigrants. He went on to suggest that any notion of legalizing undocumented workers was a slap in the face of African Americans. The ad is associated with a group called the "Coalition for the Future American Worker."
Fair's attack is not surprising, although the virulence and historical nature of it is very unsettling, particularly because it is bound to strike a chord among many African Americans.
Black America has been taking a prolonged economic hit since the mid 1970s. The economic reorganization which many people call de-industrialization has had a devastating impact on the Black worker, disproportionately so. The elimination and/or shrinkage of manufacturing jobs in urban centers has had the effect of hollowing out entire communities, destabilizing Black America economically, socially and politically. Rather than the flight of the so-called middle class, Black America has witnessed the disintegration of segments of its working class and professional/managerial class.
This crisis began well before there was a significant influx of immigrants, and it is this crisis that has been haunting us. This crisis has been compounded by the right-wing political assault on the public sector, largely through anti-tax revolts and privatization, which has resulted in both a decline in services and a decline in employment (with the latter also having a disproportionate impact on the Black worker).
Fair and his coalition mention nothing about this, which in and of itself is quite significant. Instead they focus on the competition from the immigrant worker. While competition exists, particularly in very low wage work, the problem does not lie with the immigrants but with the desire on the part of employers to find workers who will accept the lowest possible wages. This has been demonstrated in any number of industries, not the least of which was the janitorial industry during the 1980s that went from very African American to very Latino after the industry was reorganized.
Fair makes it appear that immigrants are the ones closing steel mills and auto plants. They are not. Fair acts as if the immigrant workers are carrying out ethnic cleansing against African Americans. They are not. We are, however, being cleansed from entire industries because of the greed of employers who are always looking at the bottom line and who seek the cheapest possible workforce, and eventually, if possible, no human workforce at all, but just a line of robots.
Instead of Fair and his grouping focusing on the policies that have been destroying African American employment, they instead pick the easy - and wrong - target of the immigrant. And, it is easy to pick the immigrant. For instance, in the construction industry, an industry that African Americans, along with non- immigrant Latinos (particularly Puerto Ricans and Chicanos) and Asians fought for years to get into, immigrant workers are increasing dramatically as a significant proportion of the workforce. What is noteworthy is that this is happening largely in the lower-paid, non-union construction workforce where, once again, the "logic" of capitalism prevails in the search for a low-wage workforce. While the Black worker wants a construction job, s/he is not looking for low-wage construction work with no benefits. Consider the conditions into which Latino immigrant construction workers were placed when many were brought to New Orleans for the reconstruction of the city. Under non-union conditions, they were often housed in a prison-like environment, and frequently cheated out of pay.
No, Mr. Fair and your cohorts, the problem is not the immigrant worker. The problem is the system. And, just as African American workers were used in certain industries as low-wage workers in the late 19th and early-to-mid 20th centuries, in order to undercut higher paid workers, this changed dramatically through a combination of unionization and the Black Freedom Movement.
What lessons can we draw from this?
* As long as there is a vulnerable workforce, capitalists will seek them out to utilize against other workers.
* Low-wage workers will not be competitors if they cease being low-wage workers, i.e., if they are unionized and gain power in their workplaces or jobs.
* Part of changing the character of work can be found in the demands of a social movement that combines the fight for political and social justice, with economic justice. To a great extent, the crisis facing the Black worker today can be linked to the failure of the Black Freedom Movement to pursue the path suggested by Dr. King toward the end of his life, that united the fights for racial justice with economic justice along with what later came to be known as global justice.
Without disrespecting the life and history of Mr. Fair, who I am sure made contributions to our struggle for justice, somewhere along the line he fell prey to the emotional and hallucinatory appeal of attacking immigrants as a means of saving the Black worker. Not only is this morally bankrupt, but it is also politically bankrupt. If we do not have an accurate analysis of the problem, we cannot possibly develop a good strategy to resolve it. Or, perhaps it was better and more succinctly put by the Cheshire Cat in Alice in Wonderland when he said, "if you don't know where you want to go, any road will get you there."
BC Editorial Board member, Bill Fletcher, Jr. is a long-time labor and international activist and writer.
So this Havard Professor and AFL-CIO officer has a clue about what rank and file Blacks should feel as threats, since it is they, not him who has to suffer them?Bollocks.
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impactplayer Villager

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Posted: Thursday May 31st, 2007 02:13 |
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We cannot fault the workers who hire them, we have to fault the private sector and our government who hires them. Honestly, I know if I were in theri shoes, I would trying to get over the border and get me one of those jobs.
Huh..the "workers" broke the law they dont respect the soveregnty of this country!!! Illegals know exactly what thier doing and are just as reponsible for it as the private sector!If you were in thier shoes you should lobby your own damn govt. Build up Mexico why resort to breaking the law. Thats like breaking into my house and demand I cloth and feed you. Most people I know would put a bullet to the head of any man who attempted that in their house.
I'm African-American, but if my job was lost to an immigrant, I would not be mad at them, because like I said, they are only taking advantage of them telling them come and get the job them taking it.
Get it straight the controversy is about ILLEGAL immigrants, dont you dare think I wont call you on it either, Im tired of this being politicized..They are breaking the laws and not respecting the rights of a soverigen counrty..I dont care if we a million jobs americans wouldnt do. Id give american prisoners whos paying their dues those jobs than illegal immigrants. We cannot afford another welfare state, it will easily bankrupt the country..
On top of that , we refuse to work them( and I still have this attitdue because many of those guys who take it are sometimes exploited , mistreated and underpaid)I cannot deal with that.
Exploited...OMFG!!! How old are u?! The answe is dont come here knowing you dont have rights or come in like everyone else and gain citizenship..Oh heres another one, dont take the job!!
Here is another thing that some Black people should also consider: Not all of these people who are hiring them are always non-Black. I remembered reading an article in this local Black publication about a Black owned construction company, that laid off their OWN Black and other American workers and hired the immigrant workers because of cheap labor and supposedly they were lazy( I wish I could get in the article and let you look at it.When I looked at that, I was very embarrassed , saying to myself, " Think about the slavery days, when the White slaverowners used us for cheap labor "on top of that, a person should be hired on their work merit , not becauase of what they think an immigrant may do.If they were lazy then you fire them, but you're going to tell me that all of those men were lazy? Please!
And who gives a flying f**k if they are non-black! If you know anything about economic you would see these business are DRIVING DOWN WAGES (yes black people do it too) which effects everybody.Theyre not passing the savings to the consumer.It will ultimately effect people of all income levels.Get a f**king clue!!!
I may not get mad at them for it, but I have to agree with that man, ithe more that they come and take the jobs , I do see Blacklash with a Blackface on it. Some of us will not automatically look at the government/private sectors fault, they are going to take out on the immigrants because of it and because as I have noticed, especially when it 's a non-Black problem, some try to use it ,as a partial excuse to get rid of the American workers, especially the Black one( Which still in spite of it, acoording to the NAACP and EEOC, it's considered to be racial discrimination if it's Black/non- Black immigrant and the employee being non-Black and with the White people, bias and/or reverse discrimination. They so cocky they don't realize this whether it is or not).
EEOC!?!? HUH...THEY ARE ILLEGAL ALIENS!!!! THEY HAVE NO RIGHTS UNDER THE CONSTITUTION!!!!!! If you illegally cross into Mexico you would be Jailed. Please educate yourself on issues before you make an ass of yourself. As Carlos Mencia would say De De Deeeee..
and Lastly m, when they mean immigrant, that means every immigrant around the world. Too often when they mean it, it doesn't apply to immigrant of African descent. In that case, there should be many haitians here also. That is another issue some of us get angry at( far as that issue, the anger would be just.)
I dont care if thier African, Asian, Samoan or f**king Pygmy..Get in Line!!Are you so ignorant to the fact people are upest about ILLEGAL immigration..say it with me..ILLEGAL...one more time...ILLEGAL....If you cant figure that out you are either deaf dumb or just plain retarted.. THEY HAVE NO RIGHTS..Period..do you understand that...Do you need me to expain it any clearer...Educate yourself on this issue before you even think about responding.
Last edited on Thursday May 31st, 2007 02:14 by impactplayer
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Tahliba Villager
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Posted: Thursday May 31st, 2007 16:57 |
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Does it matter to any of you that many of these 'IMMIGRANTS' legal or otherwise are of African origin, be that Carib or continental? And not just eastern europeans or asians? OR for that matter South American.
Is it just immigrants you all have a problem with or a particular nationality/ethencity of immigrant?
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CeeCee Villager
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Posted: Thursday May 31st, 2007 17:31 |
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Impact,
First of all, Your cursing will not scare, convince to change my mind or anything else. I don't care if you disagree with me, I would most appreciate if the explectives stay in the backburner. I can have a differing opinion without cursing someone out. If you think going to schange my pattern of speech , you'll probably be dead inyour gravesite and what I STILL will not change for you or anybody else coming off like that! It that style of disagreement has never worked on me in the past and most likely will not work on me in the future. If I person like you( In this case , the workplace, came after me with that attitude, I only tolerate it for so long, then I get permission from my supervisor to throw them out or report them.)I just have no room for it.
Anyway, far as paragraph 1 and 2Yeah, the workers may be breaking the law, but our gov't and the private sector are also doing a fine job themselves and to prove that, while I cannot speak for other people's states, but I know in mine, they are/have made laws where if employee's or landlords rent to illegal immigrats/hire them, they will fine or possibly jailed for it. You're putting allof them blame on them, but to me our guys are just as guilty doing . When you'rehiring them like that you're already keeping them in the country anyway! and I yes, If I was one of them and if the jobs and the gov't offered me a free pass like that I would take it. I'm not justifying any of their actions, but I do not see how you're not going to fault them without the American people doing it as well.
Paragraph 3-I'm in my 30's and proud of it, thank you!You're not going to tell me they are not being exploited and How are they being exploited. Some of those guys/women are overworked, may times underppaid and msitreated. Either you must not watch world TV( LIke LINK TV), or haven't seen it in person. Why do you think many American jobs go overseas, why do you think many Mexican and some other illegal immigrants are on those jobs? You said it yourself because they jobs are beneath us ,it's cheap labor and are willing to do those jobs in any condition. Sometimes it can be pretty deplorable. Now you tell me that if you worked those conditions you wouldn't be pissed about it?! Our people hire them because if they don't have any of our workers, their business is gone bye-bye and to save it they hire them to do it!That is why our guys do what they do.
Paragraph4- " Oh our country is so rich that we don't have to worry about a thing and Bush is taking care of it all................Oh god, like I didn't know and don't .uestion my intelligence. Aagin fault our gov't and the private sectors for hiring them.
Paragraph5-What world are you living in. I thought you knew what the EEOC . Didn't you know that they consisted of people of all races or didn't you know that? and I don't feel that I'm making a fool out of myself. and since you said that I don't know anything about it, there have been cases where Black and even White people have cmade complaints about their bosses hiring practices and it has worked. Before you judge me on my education(Which is a B.A. getting a masters,ironically studying Spanish , French and it's history past and present and did some political science work( with illegal immigration being a topic of discussion )thank you. and no I will never fell bad about what I say)but my true education comes from the the real world and common sense thank you)
Last paragraph- I just love it when people get so angry at another person because they have differing views and are TWISTING THEIR THOUGHTS words for their own meaning!The last time I looked at my birth certificate, your name wasn't on it. You're not my mother, father or grandmother or even an elder. You CANNOT and WILL NOT tell me when, where,or what to write. You can talk to your dog or children( if you have any) that way, but not me!,Not now, not ever. And far as the BLACKNET, you don't own it, so you cannot tell me when, how and what to write oh by the way the US constitution said that I have the freedom of speech, You wasn't the one of those guys writing it, so get over it!
It's sad how you ge hostile with people to get your points across.If you think that your tactics is making me cry up Lake Ontario, you're only fooling yourself !Normally, I may disagree/agree with some posters on this site, but it was cordial talk or maybe I would get a little disgusted about it, but not on the level( so far) like this !right now I have no respect for you because of your manner of doing it. Just because I have a differing opinion you have to get crappy about it. I just wonder when someone disagree with you what do you do? I don't know ..maybe you'llbeat the living daylights out them because they don't agree with you!There are going to be people that will/will not agree with who you're not going to talk to in that manner that you have talked to me. I don't know But I would hate to live in a world where everybody had the same thoughts. It's no fun being that way. If other people have tried to do the same tactic on me what make you think that you willl succeed. Havn't anybody told you. Negativity breeds negativity. With you approach of expressing you views( in this case) you're not going to get a positive response! I promise! and my thought still stands. Fault our gov't and the private sector! You see thaqt my mind has not changed on that issue!
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Tahliba Villager
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Posted: Thursday May 31st, 2007 17:36 |
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No, Mr. Fair and your cohorts, the problem is not the immigrant worker. The problem is the system. And, just as African American workers were used in certain industries as low-wage workers in the late 19th and early-to-mid 20th centuries, in order to undercut higher paid workers, this changed dramatically through a combination of unionization and the Black Freedom Movement.
Many of these African-American workers would have 'migrated' from agricultural industries. I think the author is skirting over African-American struggles in relation to employment in the Industrial North...It is an inspiring history that is extensively recorded, we should all examine it, but particularly African-Americans (of the post 60's generation)
What lessons can we draw from this?
* As long as there is a vulnerable workforce, capitalists will seek them out to utilize against other workers.
Can any of you dispute the above statement?
* Low-wage workers will not be competitors if they cease being low-wage workers, i.e., if they are unionized and gain power in their workplaces or jobs.
Forget the negative connotations with the term 'union' you all hold...What he really means is 'collective barging' Uniting to fight for a common cause.
* Part of changing the character of work can be found in the demands of a social movement that combines the fight for political and social justice, with economic justice. To a great extent, the crisis facing the Black worker today can be linked to the failure of the Black Freedom Movement to pursue the path suggested by Dr. King toward the end of his life, that united the fights for racial justice with economic justice along with what later came to be known as global justice.
The operative words here are 'combines the political and social with economic'
Without disrespecting the life and history of Mr. Fair, who I am sure made contributions to our struggle for justice, somewhere along the line he fell prey to the emotional and hallucinatory appeal of attacking immigrants as a means of saving the Black worker. Not only is this morally bankrupt, but it is also politically bankrupt. If we do not have an accurate analysis of the problem, we cannot possibly develop a good strategy to resolve it. Or, perhaps it was better and more succinctly put by the Cheshire Cat in Alice in Wonderland when he said, "if you don't know where you want to go, any road will get you there."
As he states "If we do not have an accurte analysis of the problem, we cannot possibly develp a good strategy to resolve it."
This in the end is what this article is about...The lack of 'accurate analysis'
Last edited on Thursday May 31st, 2007 19:32 by Tahliba
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Kunjufu Villager

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Posted: Thursday May 31st, 2007 19:15 |
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impactplayer wrote:
Huh..the "workers" broke the law they dont respect the soveregnty of this country!!! Illegals know exactly what thier doing and are just as reponsible for it as the private sector!If you were in thier shoes you should lobby your own damn govt. Build up Mexico why resort to breaking the law. Thats like breaking into my house and demand I cloth and feed you. Most people I know would put a bullet to the head of any man who attempted that in their house.
Get it straight the controversy is about ILLEGAL immigrants, dont you dare think I wont call you on it either, Im tired of this being politicized..They are breaking the laws and not respecting the rights of a soverigen counrty..I dont care if we a million jobs americans wouldnt do. Id give american prisoners whos paying their dues those jobs than illegal immigrants. We cannot afford another welfare state, it will easily bankrupt the country..
Impact: Are you for real? boy i had to read and reread the above, then for measure i checked the date to make sure it was not April 1st... I really can't believe your brassneck.....
How can you as a card carrying American TALK about the rule of 'law' and 'soverignty;...hold up didn't your commander in chief consistently break international law, in fact break is not the right word flout is a better word... didn't flout to the glee of the right wing public of america the soveriegnty of other country, flout international law of human rights and Geneva convention on prisoners... come on now impact if we are going to use analogies then i could talk about what i would do if a man kicks down my door kidnaps my family and calls it justice?
But to be honest what got me, was the barefaced cheek to BLAME immigrants of 'bankrupting' America...do what!!!? ROTF....listen i'm not an economist..however i would suggest that if America is near bankruptcy then i think there is a very good argument to suggest that you should fire your ire at you CIC for wasting the legacy left by Clinton (whom i have no time for) in favour of an illegal and amoral war ..how you have the temerity to blast CeeCee with a straight face god only knows...
damn you've got a bareface cheek....
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Tahliba Villager
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Posted: Thursday May 31st, 2007 19:56 |
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impactplayer Wrote:
Huh..the "workers" broke the law they dont respect the soveregnty of this country!!! Illegals know exactly what thier doing and are just as reponsible for it as the private sector!If you were in thier shoes you should lobby your own damn govt. Build up Mexico why resort to breaking the law. Thats like breaking into my house and demand I cloth and feed you. Most people I know would put a bullet to the head of any man who attempted that in their house
So it is just Mexican illigal immigrants you have a prolem with?
You don't mind the legal Mexican immigrants? Or for that matter the legal African, Asian, Caribbean, European immigrants?
Your quote above would not look out of place amongst the literature of the BNP in this country....scary stuff.
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Tahliba Villager
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Posted: Thursday May 31st, 2007 20:01 |
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milesdavis wrote: Jesse Jackson actually hired buses to bring displaced African Americans from New Orleans back to work on the clean up effort. No one showed up. Except for illegal immigrants who want to work.
There are plenty of jobs available if people want to work.
Well that might have had more to do with the conditions those workers had to work under...21st Century prison labour( a popular source of cheap labour for a long period in American history.)
@Happiness
OF course there is
Last edited on Thursday May 31st, 2007 20:05 by Tahliba
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adrianerik Villager
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Posted: Thursday May 31st, 2007 20:38 |
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A little statistic...Nearly 76 to 78 percent of African-Americans are either working-income, middle income, or upper income. Oftentimes discussions of African-Americans center on the conditions (and they are horrible) of what is called the 'hardcore', quasi-permanent underclass, mostly settled in 'rust belt' States, which have been gutted of their manufacturing industries.
America's industry has morphed from a manufacturing base to a service base and, a scan of any of these service based companies, BLUE CROSS, AETNA, MCI, will show that, for the most part, Loqueeta and Shaneafa and Aisha are sitting at their desks or cubicles, earning their checks, saving their monies and buying their little homes, causing a slow, but steady rise in African-American home ownership. Not that their jobs are safe. But, if they are at risk, it is not because they are African-Americans, it is because that sector, the service industry, comprised of working and middle income whites, blacks, AND hispanics, are also being outsourced. (another issue).
There should just be some perspective on this topic to waylay some of these generalizations.
The issues, and history of African-American involvement with 'immigrants' is not that simple. There are several layers to the story and not simply explained by 'immigrants taking AA jobs, and most definitely not explained by African-Americans not wanting to work. I've seen the lines for to apply for the positions of maids and janitors everytime a new hotel is built. If the question is, is this reflective of the aspirations of that 22 percent (was 26 percent), that's another issue and the analyis should be more directly focused.
There is and has been a sour taste in African-American's mouths about unions since the beginning of the industrial revolution. Without dealing with white supremacy unions mean nothing. It was the exclusion of African-Americans from unions by the new urban immigrants - Italians, Poles, Germans - that relegated black workers to many of these marginalized industries. There was clear understanding of the power of unions, the organizing of the nearly totally African-American train porters, greatly improved the lives of these men. But the vicious exlusion of imminently qualified African-Americans in the contruction industry (it's not for nothing that there is such a large black mason's group in the states) led these men allowing themselves to be used as scabs to break the predominately white union strikes.
Economic 'justice' (whatever 'justice' means) is a wonderful thing to achieve, but even in Cuba, without the destruction of white supremacist imagery, the color line manifests itself in this socialist society in its allocation of careers. There were several film documentaries outlining this.
The initial African-American interaction in Florida with hispanics (predominately Cubans) was not the same as the relationship with Puerto Ricans in New York City. African-Americans dominated the maids and janitor industry in Miami. In the 60's, during 'white flight', when these businesses were sold to the arriving Cubans, African-Americans were summarily dismissed (they had unions) and replaced by hispanic workers. Nearly everyone in the Miami area had a relative or friend who was not just fired, but let go deprecatingly. The caustic relationship between these two groups began during that epoch.
I disagree with the quality of the statement that there is 'work' to had in America. One just has to look for it. It's true, to a degree, if the idea is to have everybody doing 'something'. But, with the outsourcing of middle class jobs to India (information systems, accountants, medical billing) as well as the manufacturing jobs, economists have detailed the low wage, no benefits, no job protection work of the available jobs, and the dislocation required to take them. And...the often seasonal, temporary nature of these jobs.
As late as the 70's and 80's, it was African-Americans who lined up on the corners, waiting for busses to carry them to pick blueberries and strawberries and tomatoes, dig potatoes, pull weeds, etc. And, generation by generation, there was the sense of movement as a people. The hard work was 'already' done so now, this community should be enjoying the benefits of a better lifestyle.
Whether that mindset places African-Americans at a disadvantage when 'competing' with Brazilians or Nicaraguans or Guatemalans or Haitians, who have not yet educed that type of change and expectations from their societies, is not a question. Of course it does.
I've seen American workers adjust when a depressed state of the economy is seen as being like rain, something that affects everyone. My friend, with his BA in Accounting, has no problem 'busting' tables at International House of Pancakes, during one of the recessions. Another friend, law degree in hand, monitored residents at his apartment building.
However, in a collective sense, when the idea that you should now stand in the center of street on Wisconsin Avenue in D.C. and 5th street in Philly and Highland Avenue in New York and wait for a van to pull up and point their finger at this one, ignore that one, point their finger at that one, ignore the other...and do this...because that's what the 'third world' does...I don't think folks are ready to accept that. It's not a sense of not wanting to work, it's a sense of a situation being forced on you, and your only option is 'go down' to where your grand-dad, daddy and mommy had already been. And, even if you meet that leve, there is still another level lower to go. (In Philly, the Cambodians are undercutting he already low hispanic salary by almost 50%. Even latinos are not ready to wear rubber sandals in the winter to get by)
African American construction workers, particularly from South Carolina and Georgia, are in my opinion, second to none. Nearly everyone in that Geechee section of America builds their own homes. They used to joke that the little black children could probably frame a home by themselves. A little known fact is that, after the hurricane that devastated Homestead Florida, the residents were being ripped off by expensive union guys from the North. But word leaked out that the 'South Carolina Boys' did quality work at a fair price. My cousin's husband was one of them. He can't read, but he can make a blueprint.
The response made a point about the failings of THE Black Movement. I probably need to look this person up, to see his age. There was no such thing as THE Black Movement. There were MANY black movements, each part of the epoch, part of a 'resistance' but not necessarily of the same 'insistence'. They were capitalists, socialists, a few communists. Sexist and Feminists...and Womanists. Cultural nationalists and followers of buddhism. So you can't say that the 'movement' failed. Failure is based upon what your goals were. Beyond that, what particular society has yet to cure the ills of the world?
Jessie Jackson's Rainbow Coalition was a manifestation of exactly what Dr King was referring to. It was a broad coalition of blacks, whites, hispanics and American Indians based upon their economic situation. It worked until everybody became prosperous. The Black Panther Party (for Self Defense) just existed at the wrong time (J Edgar Hoover and cointelpro). And their virulent sexism needed to be cleaned up.
What a lot of African-American groups failed to do was, to paraphrase Toni Cade Bambara, un-tie the 'movement' from its black-white duality (African-Americans started starring in movies with John Waye to pick on the Asians or the latinos), and, as Malcolm says, place in the framework of human rights. That, at least, would have had us LISTENING to other peoples as humans and not as a race, nor a nationality.
That probably would have provided a better context for understanding the conditions that drove so many immigrants to pick up and leave their communities.
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Posted: Thursday May 31st, 2007 21:38 |
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Tahliba wrote: Does it matter to any of you that many of these 'IMMIGRANTS' legal or otherwise are of African origin, be that Carib or continental? And not just eastern europeans or asians? OR for that matter South American.
Is it just immigrants you all have a problem with or a particular nationality/ethencity of immigrant?
The percentage of all other regions is dwarfed by Mexicans and Cen Americans. They come with the least skills, and education but the most crime and depencence on the socal welfare system without contributing taxes.
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impactplayer Villager

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Posted: Thursday May 31st, 2007 21:56 |
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CeeCee wrote: Impact,
First of all, Your cursing will not scare, convince to change my mind or anything else. I don't care if you disagree with me, I would most appreciate if the explectives stay in the backburner. I can have a differing opinion without cursing someone out. If you think going to schange my pattern of speech , you'll probably be dead inyour gravesite and what I STILL will not change for you or anybody else coming off like that! It that style of disagreement has never worked on me in the past and most likely will not work on me in the future. If I person like you( In this case , the workplace, came after me with that attitude, I only tolerate it for so long, then I get permission from my supervisor to throw them out or report them.)I just have no room for it.
No offense but you clearly dont have a grasp on this issue and I should realized that. Ill apoligize for the way I got across my point. Lou Dobbs on CNN got me fired up as always and I read your comments at the wrong time. But I stand by everything I said.
Anyway, far as paragraph 1 and 2Yeah, the workers may be breaking the law, but our gov't and the private sector are also doing a fine job themselves and to prove that, while I cannot speak for other people's states, but I know in mine, they are/have made laws where if employee's or landlords rent to illegal immigrats/hire them, they will fine or possibly jailed for it. You're putting allof them blame on them, but to me our guys are just as guilt | | | |