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Breadfruit
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Posted: Sunday April 1st, 2007 19:30 |
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Kunjufu wrote: The reason it is so hard for some European accept, is because they would have to accept what they did...
and are still doing!
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Sunday April 1st, 2007 19:31 |
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graphics wrote: Why does it have to be the word 'sorry' then? Because as far as I know saying sorry means you admit some sort of responsibilty. Why can the PM not simply say I ackowledge that obvious wrong was done.
The whole question of saying sorry is getting silly, I fear that it is causing unessacary tensions that werent there before. Lets remeber that there are some people who are not nearly as educated and sensible as the members of this forum and are not capable of discussing these things in an adult way and they just see this ia becoming a black vs white issue.
Graphic...in short YOU were 'responsible' and it is a Black Vs white thing....an apology is warrranted because the Western so called civilisations have NEVER accepted their behaviour or acknowledge the 'benefits' of slavery....
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Soulstarr
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Posted: Sunday April 1st, 2007 19:34 |
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graphics wrote: Why does it have to be the word 'sorry' then? Because as far as I know saying sorry means you admit some sort of responsibilty. Why can the PM not simply say I ackowledge that obvious wrong was done.
The whole question of saying sorry is getting silly, I fear that it is causing unessacary tensions that werent there before. Lets remeber that there are some people who are not nearly as educated and sensible as the members of this forum and are not capable of discussing these things in an adult way and they just see this ia becoming a black vs white issue.
Your responses show me that you feel your precious government and monarchy have nothing to acknowledge let alone apologise for. no matter how much you try to dress it up, your real feelings are thinly veiled in your first paragraph alone.
I'd be interested to know if you feel that the jews deserved their reparations?
Last edited on Sunday April 1st, 2007 19:39 by Soulstarr
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graphics
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Posted: Sunday April 1st, 2007 19:37 |
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Kunjufu wrote: graphics wrote: Why does it have to be the word 'sorry' then? Because as far as I know saying sorry means you admit some sort of responsibilty. Why can the PM not simply say I ackowledge that obvious wrong was done.
The whole question of saying sorry is getting silly, I fear that it is causing unessacary tensions that werent there before. Lets remeber that there are some people who are not nearly as educated and sensible as the members of this forum and are not capable of discussing these things in an adult way and they just see this ia becoming a black vs white issue.
Graphic...in short YOU were 'responsible' and it is a Black Vs white thing....an apology is warrranted because the Western so called civilisations have NEVER accepted their behaviour or acknowledge the 'benefits' of slavery....
This is a crazy statement to make. I am most certainly not responsible. I am only responsible for my own actions and the slave trade was not one of my actions therefore how can i be responsible for it? It was not done in my name, how can it I was not even around then? This is why I have said this demanding an apology is crazy. The best thing we could all be doing is stopping the slavery that is happening now in the world. Lets not forget also that it was the British 'civilization' who actually abolished slavery. Therefore in the time that it actually occured the poeple saw their mistake and corrected it.
I will not allow anyone to apologise on my behalf for something which I did not do.
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Sunday April 1st, 2007 19:47 |
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Graphic....you have just proved how ignorant people like you are on the issue of Slavery...and the issues therein.....
First of all you should realy study and learn the subject before you come onto an AFRICAN forum and shouting the odds, because you look and sound foolish....
This only sounds crazy because the subject make Europeand uncomfortable and uneasy about what actually occured during slavery.. Moving on it has to be SAID the issue is not about individual responsiblity, it is about collective responsibility acknowledging a shamful part of YOUR history.. further it is about acknowleding the benefits of Slavery..lets be blunt about this, this lack of an apology is not about expressing regret..it is about Western Government avoiding possible financial claims for their actions..
Last edited on Sunday April 1st, 2007 19:48 by Kunjufu
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graphics
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Posted: Sunday April 1st, 2007 19:49 |
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You have your opinon I have mine. I know I am right, you know you are so I dont think we will resolve this! I have said my piece. I very much hope that the government will not allow themselves to be bullied into saying sorry.
ps It is very easy to try and write someone off as ignorant when you dont like what they are saying.
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Sunday April 1st, 2007 20:03 |
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graphics wrote: You have your opinon I have mine. I know I am right, you know you are so I dont think we will resolve this! I have said my piece. I very much hope that the government will not allow themselves to be bullied into saying sorry.
ps It is very easy to try and write someone off as ignorant when you dont like what they are saying.
Graphic..with all due respect..my view is not and OPINION its an obvious fact!! you have not demostrated a shred of evidence that you understand the issue of slavery in any perspective other than your own. You have failed to do even the fundamental and that is research your target audience, you could have done that by simply reading this thread in its entirity... The fact that you didn't do this demostrates as a FACT your ignorance..
Then typically you demostrate the type of arrogrance that is sadly previlent in your culture by stating that 'you know you're right', right about what exactly do even know what the hell this is about...?
You then mouth off about being 'bullied'...again this demostrates your ignorance on the subject, I would say to you simply that the fact that we are only Acknowledging slavery now 200 years later..is hardly evidence of succesive governments being 'bullied' quite the opposite i would suggest...
The issue PEOPLE like you have, is this..until this goverment acknowledges its atrocitocies and the benefits GAINED from these atrocities..there will never be peace...You can enjoy the benefits of ill gotten gains and EXPECT the victims of that atroscity to ACCEPT that injustice it won't happen....
So if it make you feel better bury your head in the sand, avoid the debate and deny till kingdom come the hard facts..but the issue of savery won't go away and African won't rest until justice is served....thats the bottom line..
Finally you really need to LEARN history properly and in context..the BRITISH did not abolish slavery....that would have been impossible, given that BRITAIN wasn't the only Slaver nation... The 2007 celebration commenorates the Act passed in parliment outlawing it in the UK only!!!
Furthermore....if you had learnt history in CONTEXT you would know that African in your slave farms of Brazil, Jamaica, Haiti, Barbados and the America revolted so many times it would have been clear even to the most harden slaver that.....the model of slavery was no longer economically viable...
Maybe if you had looked up names like Nanny of Maroons, Sam sharpe, Paul Bogle, Toussaint L'ouverture etc etc all the key BLACK names air brush out of the recent celebrations..you might have a frigging clue Graphic....
Last edited on Sunday April 1st, 2007 20:20 by Kunjufu
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Peacemaker
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Posted: Sunday April 1st, 2007 20:10 |
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graphics wrote: My ancestors were from Wales and Scotland and to the best of my knowledge were not slave masters or traders or anything so why do I have to apologise? I am sorry it happened just like I am sorry when a kid gets murdered in East London but I dont have to apologise for that, so why do I have to apologise for the slave trade when it was not my fault either?
Are we supposed to go back 200 years through everyone's family history and findout if they had any part in it and if so make them apologise? It would be ridiculous and like I said meaningless.
I hate how this issue is being made into a black vs white issue by some sections of society(mainly the chattering classes)and some sections of the media. It is not. It is something terrible which happened as a part of Britain's history and I am sure that the vast majority of British people are very sorry it ever happened but all these calls for an apology and repartions are just causing unessacary tensions.
It's not about you when it comes down to it "The peasants, The ordinary people, The taxpayer" You don't have any say in how your nation is governed now anyway. In truth British people never have. However yours is the arguement the media and politicians use to justify their reasons not to give an apology. A viewpoint that was given to you....which isn't surprising because with British people all their opinions are given to them from one source or another anyway. And of course being ruled in such a way you'll accept any law passed almost without question, and adopt any viewpoint spread to you by your rulers. Someone has to even tell you if a film is good for godsakes, normally an expert critic.
You as an individual or any white saying sorry wouldn't mean sh*te to anybody to be honest..
But the heads of state, in this case Tony Blair and the Queen should say sorry for the role their "nation" played during the era of the enslavement of Africans. It's as simple as that. Somehow people seem to think that it also means apologising on the British people's behalf. It doesn't.
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MarcusGarveyLives
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Posted: Sunday April 1st, 2007 20:17 |
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Rather than wild goose chases with Europeans whose "ancestors were from Wales and Scotland and to the best of my knowledge were not slave masters or traders or anything", and trying to work out who asked him / her to "apologise", Africans may instead wish to participate in the following serious discussions:
Galaxy - 'Pan African People's Show' with Bro Omowale: 10pm - 12pm
Sunday 1st April, 2007
There are those who claim that Toyin's actions in Westminster Abbey reinforced negative stereotypes of "people of colour" and set a bad example to our children. There are others who claim that he did it for publicity and sought to generate income for his "business interests". He has agreed to come into the studio so that those who wish to challenge him can have a direct platform from which to do so.
Listen to Galaxy Radio on 99.5 FM or online at:
http://www.afiwestation.com
Voice of Africa Radio - 'Afrika Speaks' with the Alkebu-Lan Revivalist Movement: 8pm - 10pm
Monday 2nd April, 2007
The subject matter will be the progress and issues surrounding the Operation/Truth 2007 campaign.
Sis. Jendayi will be on the phone from Bristol.
Listen Online at:
http://www.voiceofafricaradio.com/
Sky digital No.: 0192
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Sunday April 1st, 2007 20:33 |
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MarcusGarveyLives wrote: Rather than wild goose chases with Europeans whose "ancestors were from Wales and Scotland and to the best of my knowledge were not slave masters or traders or anything", and trying to work out who asked him / her to "apologise", Africans may instead wish to participate in the following serious discussions:
Disagree....As Graphic was 'brave' enough, (i'd say dumb enough) to come onto a Black Website, with a comic book understanding of World history, I'd say that it is important to demostrate to the onlooker, that the type of Idealogy he demostrated does not stand up the type of scrutiny rarely applied in the European media...
You will note how suddenly Graphic has been struck dumb, how when you scratch the surface of his so called argument...how it simply falls apart.....yet he believes he is 'right' wow!!!
Last edited on Sunday April 1st, 2007 20:39 by Kunjufu
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Peacemaker
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Posted: Sunday April 1st, 2007 20:37 |
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MarcusGarveyLives wrote: Rather than wild goose chases with Europeans whose "ancestors were from Wales and Scotland and to the best of my knowledge were not slave masters or traders or anything", and trying to work out who asked him / her to "apologise", Africans may instead wish to participate in the following serious discussions:
Galaxy - 'Pan African People's Show' with Bro Omowale: 10pm - 12pm
Sunday 1st April, 2007
There are those who claim that Toyin's actions in Westminster Abbey reinforced negative stereotypes of "people of colour" and set a bad example to our children. There are others who claim that he did it for publicity and sought to generate income for his "business interests". He has agreed to come into the studio so that those who wish to challenge him can have a direct platform from which to do so.
Listen to Galaxy Radio on 99.5 FM or online at:
http://www.afiwestation.com
Voice of Africa Radio - 'Afrika Speaks' with the Alkebu-Lan Revivalist Movement: 8pm - 10pm
Monday 2nd April, 2007
The subject matter will be the progress and issues surrounding the Operation/Truth 2007 campaign.
Sis. Jendayi will be on the phone from Bristol.
Listen Online at:
http://www.voiceofafricaradio.com/
Sky digital No.: 0192
If it's that important start a thread on it, instead of being a predictable [censoredword], which quite frankly puts me right off it anyway.
Oh wait, it only becomes "important" and "serious" when it's discussed on the radio.....by important people I've never heard of ever....with abit of fame.
Silly me....for prefering to talk to the more "everyday" type people.
Yes, don't talk or think, just listen to other people..and if you wish to talk, pay a premium phone rate.
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Soulstarr
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Posted: Sunday April 1st, 2007 20:42 |
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If it's that important start a thread on it, instead of being a predictable [censoredword], which quite frankly puts me right off it anyway.
Oh wait, it only becomes "important" and "serious" when it's discussed on the radio.....by important people I've never heard of ever....with abit of fame.
Silly me....for prefering to talk to the more "everyday" type people.
Yes, don't talk or think, just listen to other people..and if you wish to talk, pay a premium phone rate.
co-sign
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Breadfruit
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Posted: Sunday April 1st, 2007 20:47 |
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graphics wrote: Why does it have to be the word 'sorry' then? Because as far as I know saying sorry means you admit some sort of responsibilty.
So you don't think Britain was responsible for moving millions of Africans, , to their deaths, on plantations in the Americas?????
Or does responsibility mean something else??
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Black_Power
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Posted: Sunday April 1st, 2007 21:01 |
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Le Moor
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Posted: Sunday April 1st, 2007 21:07 |
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Peacemaker wrote: graphics wrote: My ancestors were from Wales and Scotland and to the best of my knowledge were not slave masters or traders or anything so why do I have to apologise? I am sorry it happened just like I am sorry when a kid gets murdered in East London but I dont have to apologise for that, so why do I have to apologise for the slave trade when it was not my fault either?
Are we supposed to go back 200 years through everyone's family history and findout if they had any part in it and if so make them apologise? It would be ridiculous and like I said meaningless.
I hate how this issue is being made into a black vs white issue by some sections of society(mainly the chattering classes)and some sections of the media. It is not. It is something terrible which happened as a part of Britain's history and I am sure that the vast majority of British people are very sorry it ever happened but all these calls for an apology and repartions are just causing unessacary tensions.
It's not about you when it comes down to it "The peasants, The ordinary people, The taxpayer" You don't have any say in how your nation is governed now anyway. In truth British people never have. However yours is the arguement the media and politicians use to justify their reasons not to give an apology. A viewpoint that was given to you....which isn't surprising because with British people all their opinions are given to them from one source or another anyway. And of course being ruled in such a way you'll accept any law passed almost without question, and adopt any viewpoint spread to you by your rulers. Someone has to even tell you if a film is good for godsakes, normally an expert critic.
You as an individual or any white saying sorry wouldn't mean sh*te to anybody to be honest..
But the heads of state, in this case Tony Blair and the Queen should say sorry for the role their "nation" played during the era of the enslavement of Africans. It's as simple as that. Somehow people seem to think that it also means apologising on the British people's behalf. It doesn't.
Is it about the apology of 'the individual', or is it about the powers to be for e.g. The British Government, The Queen, Tate and Lyle, LLoyds Insurance etc?
Is it not fact that they benefited from the profits of our blood.
For that do they not need to say sorry?
Last edited on Sunday April 1st, 2007 22:14 by Le Moor
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Le Moor
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Posted: Sunday April 1st, 2007 21:46 |
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To those that did right eventually.., and got up, and walked out...
Last edited on Sunday April 1st, 2007 22:27 by Le Moor
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Posted: Sunday April 1st, 2007 22:06 |
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If anyone(the PM, whoever..) wants to apologise on behalf of themselves then that is fine. I am simply stating that I do not want anyone to apologise on my behalf because I have not done anything about which I am sorry.
Maybe I dont know all the details about the slave trade(actually I think you will find I know more than you think...but lets not get into that!)but I am allowed to have my opinion and they should be respected, as should everyones.
As if you say Africans will never forget about the slave trade and are so desperate to get this apology, then why not start actually doing something to get it. Toyin seems to be the only person so far who I have seen actually doing something to get what he wants and to demonstrate his feelings. Why not have a mass protest in parliament, a strike or something to get this apology which is so vital, rather than just sitting around in the comfort of your own forum discussing it. Maybe its not quite so vital to the majority of people after all....?
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Posted: Sunday April 1st, 2007 22:20 |
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graphics wrote: If anyone(the PM, whoever..) wants to apologise on behalf of themselves then that is fine. I am simply stating that I do not want anyone to apologise on my behalf because I have not done anything about which I am sorry.
Maybe I dont know all the details about the slave trade(actually I think you will find I know more than you think...but lets not get into that!)but I am allowed to have my opinion and they should be respected, as should everyones.
As if you say Africans will never forget about the slave trade and are so desperate to get this apology, then why not start actually doing something to get it. Toyin seems to be the only person so far who I have seen actually doing something to get what he wants and to demonstrate his feelings. Why not have a mass protest in parliament, a strike or something to get this apology which is so vital, rather than just sitting around in the comfort of your own forum discussing it. Maybe its not quite so vital to the majority of people after all....?
Graphic....Like i said previously your feelings are imaterial on this issue, no one is asking YOU personally to take responsibility, we demand that the head of government of the UK does that....
Secondly your knowledge or the lack of is aso imaterial the simple FACT is that you have consistently failed to demostrate ANY knowledge of your OWN history never mind that of Africans...so again I state simply that what you know or don't know is also imaterial if you fail exhibit it...
As for your last imature quip, not worthy really not worthy of a response so I won't bother...
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Posted: Sunday April 1st, 2007 22:23 |
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graphics - here's one for you. What do you think the chances of history repeating itself are. Ok, we rally together and finally get the apology. In 200 years time when the then UK government decides to commemorate the day they decided to apologise, who do you think they will credit for them making that decision?
The apology is for them to make, not for them to be coerced into making - they just need to know that we know. Toyin made that as clear to them as they will ever need it to be.
On the aside, I think it would be nice to show the MET that when they arrested Toyin they arrested us as well.
Last edited on Sunday April 1st, 2007 22:25 by Incognito
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Posted: Sunday April 1st, 2007 22:24 |
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graphics wrote: If anyone(the PM, whoever..) wants to apologise on behalf of themselves then that is fine. I am simply stating that I do not want anyone to apologise on my behalf because I have not done anything about which I am sorry.
Maybe I dont know all the details about the slave trade(actually I think you will find I know more than you think...but lets not get into that!)but I am allowed to have my opinion and they should be respected, as should everyones.
As if you say Africans will never forget about the slave trade and are so desperate to get this apology, then why not start actually doing something to get it. Toyin seems to be the only person so far who I have seen actually doing something to get what he wants and to demonstrate his feelings. Why not have a mass protest in parliament, a strike or something to get this apology which is so vital, rather than just sitting around in the comfort of your own forum discussing it. Maybe its not quite so vital to the majority of people after all....?
Now maybe people would like to take up MarcusGarveyLive's advice and call in the radio show, send a text and show support for Toyin, make sure that he never is seen as a one man soldier, a foolish thought that has no basis in reality. Or you are welcome to stay here and discuss with this caucasian the same old tired rhetoric which as has been expressed, you have all heard before and can easily dismantle.
Use your time for something that has more meaning.
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Posted: Sunday April 1st, 2007 22:29 |
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Incognito wrote: graphics - here's one for you. What do you think the chances of history repeating itself is. Ok, we rally together and finally get the apology. In 200 years time when the then UK government decides to commemorate the day they decided to apologise, who do you think they will credit for them making that decision?
The apology is for them to make, not for them to be coerced into making - they just need to know that we know. Toyin made that as clear to them as they will ever need it to be.
On the aside, I think it would be nice to show the MET that when they arrested Toyin they arrested us as well.
I think this is a cop out of actually doing anything. If what Toyin did is enough, then why are we still talking about an apology.? If you want something badly enough you have to go out and get it. If when women were trying to get the vote they had said 'oh we dont need to go out and protest and go on hunger strike, we dont want to coerce them into giving us the vote, we want them to just give it to us', they might never have got the vote.
I just question why, if this apology is so important, and it would mean so much then why not go out and fight for it?
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Posted: Sunday April 1st, 2007 22:29 |
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| RasRuben.....I see that you have not attempted to take your own advice, I have been trying for the best part of an hour to get through, Anyhow this Thread is testiment of the feelings of a great many people toward Toyin... Last edited on Sunday April 1st, 2007 22:40 by
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