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The Black Forum 2 - The BN Village > Welcome to The Black Forum - The Blacknet Village > News and Politics Village > African-American Indians. Can a person be both African American & Native American Indian.


African-American Indians. Can a person be both African American & Native American Indian.
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Vubundada_Kandaba
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 Posted: Thursday December 7th, 2006 16:39

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James Hakeem Sweeney, his sister Nzingha Beverly Sweeney and Charline Habiba Tramel traveled from Buffalo, New York, to attend the pow wow. "There is a part of my history here that I need to know," Mr. Sweeney said. He said his grandparents came from Oklahoma. Nzingha Sweeney said that she always felt that her grandparents, aunts and uncles were keeping secrets about their Indian heritage. "I remember looking at my grandfather with those cheekbones and high nose, and I would say there is more to where we come from," Ms. Sweeney shared.

"I have been to other pow wows because I am always searching for my Indian history. I have grandchildren and I want them to know where they come from, so they will know where they are going," Ms. Tramel said.


Today, organizations, such as the Black Indians United Legal Defense and Education Fund and the Freedman Descendants of the Five Civilized Tribes, argue that the history of Black Indians has been left out deliberately by government agencies such as the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA).

"Our current struggles arise from what seems to be a concerted effort by the highest levels of U.S. government agencies responsible for the fiduciary and trustee duties to deny Black Indians their rights under the Treaty of 1866, giving slaves held by the five tribes equal rights, as full members of the tribes.

"I charge the BIA with ethnic cleansing, racial discrimination, ethnically exclusionary procedural systems and breach of contractual obligations," said Angela Molette, Freedmen's Descendants spokesperson. She said the main purpose of the First Annual Black Indian Pow Wow in Enid was to call "members" of the five tribes back home so that they may re-claim the heritage that was lost due to the forced exile. Historians have estimated that at least 18 percent of the Indians that survived the Trail of Tears were Black.

In his article, Brent Staples cites the Choctaws, Seminoles, Cherokees and Creeks, four of the Five Civilized Tribes that were marched out of the southeastern United States—with their slaves (Blacks/Africans)—and onto land that became Indian Territory and Oklahoma.

The Seminole and the Cherokee tribes have employed discriminatory policies to prevent black members from receiving tribal benefits—and to strip them of the right to vote in tribal elections. Like the white slave owners they emulated, Native Americans often fathered children by enslaved women and occasionally treated those children as family. As a result, millions of black Americans are descended from black people who were either members of the tribes during slavery or adopted into them just after Emancipation.

In the Civil War, these slaveholding, formerly southern tribes joined the South, fighting for the Confederacy. Their territory became a battleground of some of the bloodiest guerrilla fighting in the war: All-Indian Union brigades from Kansas fought all-Indian Confederate brigades in a free-for-all that resulted in the slaughter of lots of civilians, who by the way also were Indians.

When the war ended, the North punished the Cherokees and the other tribes who dared to side with the South. The federal government forced the tribes to accept their freed slaves as tribal members—regardless of any aforementioned fathering. The feds also took land away from the Cherokees to create a dumping ground for dozens of tribes left homeless by white expansion—and that land became Indian Territory.

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Any-one has an opinion about this issue which seems to become a major problem after the Indian tribes were allowed to operate Casino's and now black members are being kicked out. Also can one be an African American Indian, or you just Black Indian? VK.



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 Posted: Friday December 8th, 2006 17:23

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I remember looking at my grandfather with those cheekbones and high nose, and I would say there is more to where we come from

This could mean anything. Not just association with 'Native Americans'.  But we as living being are vain.

The federal government forced the tribes to accept their freed slaves as tribal members—regardless of any aforementioned fathering.

I think the federal government is the one who started it and are currently doing the kicking out also.  Just like this statement below.

The feds also took land away from the Cherokees to create a dumping ground for dozens of tribes left homeless by white expansion—and that land became Indian Territory.

Any 'black' or African person can claim being Indian also.  But is it really communicating the message of peace to Native American which seems to be an issue above.  Because if a 'black' person did a 'wrong' to a 'native' person, how would that be handled.   In this case 'indian' person or group would administer justice as in the case above.  If so that means 'black' indians even if they join will be marginalized with full benefits.  It's much easier to tell a fellow black or African I identify as 'black' 'indian' (not marginalized) then to tell a 'indian' we are 'black 'indian' (candidate for marginalization).

As in all things 'black' people do in this world it will turn into a fight.

For 'black' 'indians' it will be a political fight spread wide and far but those organized and identify as such are not big in numbers anywhere.

Sometimes we have to consider things beyond just identity.

But i've by far met more 'race' 'indians' than 'indians'.




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 Posted: Saturday December 9th, 2006 18:07

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What did she mean by her grandfather's cheekbones being Indian?  They could be African. They originated in Africans first.



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 Posted: Saturday December 9th, 2006 18:27

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alabamagirl wrote: What did she mean by her grandfather's cheekbones being Indian?  They could be African. They originated in Africans first.


clp)...what foolishness some people speak.  Anyone can look at Nelson Mandela



...or many other south Africans and see so called "indian cheekbones".  Comments like that are more out of ignorance and Black folks desire to be anything other than African.



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 Posted: Monday December 11th, 2006 01:25

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Shemsi en Tehuti wrote: alabamagirl wrote: What did she mean by her grandfather's cheekbones being Indian?  They could be African. They originated in Africans first.


clp)...what foolishness some people speak.  Anyone can look at Nelson Mandela



...or many other south Africans and see so called "indian cheekbones".  Comments like that are more out of ignorance and Black folks desire to be anything other than African.


I agree with this , it's very true. I'm suprised she's taken a big step just to find that small part about herself. I myself, I am 1/4 Indian, as my grandmother is from India, she's a beautiful indian woman, but at the end of the day I am still BLACK !



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 Posted: Monday December 11th, 2006 06:04

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The funny thing is most Native American tribes don't even reconize alot of the 'black Indian' tribes,but  quickly except the 1/4 native indian Chuck Norris and Johnny Depp types. These people are of African ancestry,why can't they take pride and research that?

Last edited on Monday December 11th, 2006 06:07 by kiley



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 Posted: Friday December 15th, 2006 02:06

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Maybe they hate their African roots.



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 Posted: Friday December 15th, 2006 02:06

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Maybe they hate their African roots.



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 Posted: Friday December 15th, 2006 05:31

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kiley wrote: The funny thing is most Native American tribes don't even reconize alot of the 'black Indian' tribes,but  quickly except the 1/4 native indian Chuck Norris and Johnny Depp types. These people are of African ancestry,why can't they take pride and research that?

Kiley, do you claim to be African-American?  Because if you are, you would know that many American Indians recognize Lumbee, Seminole, and Cherokee who have significant African heritage. 

 

The Black Seminoles are descendants of runaway slaves who escaped from coastal South Carolina and Georgia into the Florida wilderness beginning as early as the late 1600s. The runaway slaves joined with various Indian groups escaping into Florida at the same period. Together, the two groups formed the Seminole tribe, a multi-ethnic and bi-racial alliance. Today, Black Seminole descendants still live in rural communities in Oklahoma and Texas and in the Bahamas and Northern Mexico. In the 19th century the Florida "Black Seminoles" were called "Seminole Negroes" by their white American enemies and Estelusti, or "Black People," by their Indian allies. Modern Black Seminoles are known as "Seminole Freedmen" in Oklahoma, "Seminole Scouts" in Texas, "Black Indians" in the Bahamas, and "Mascogos" in Mexico.




 



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 Posted: Friday December 15th, 2006 09:49

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This Kiley troll chats a whole load of sh*t. Ignore it.



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 Posted: Friday December 15th, 2006 15:17

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TheDogon wrote: kiley wrote: The funny thing is most Native American tribes don't even reconize alot of the 'black Indian' tribes,but  quickly except the 1/4 native indian Chuck Norris and Johnny Depp types. These people are of African ancestry,why can't they take pride and research that?

Kiley, do you claim to be African-American?  Because if you are, you would know that many American Indians recognize Lumbee, Seminole, and Cherokee who have significant African heritage. 

 

The Black Seminoles are descendants of runaway slaves who escaped from coastal South Carolina and Georgia into the Florida wilderness beginning as early as the late 1600s. The runaway slaves joined with various Indian groups escaping into Florida at the same period. Together, the two groups formed the Seminole tribe, a multi-ethnic and bi-racial alliance. Today, Black Seminole descendants still live in rural communities in Oklahoma and Texas and in the Bahamas and Northern Mexico. In the 19th century the Florida "Black Seminoles" were called "Seminole Negroes" by their white American enemies and Estelusti, or "Black People," by their Indian allies. Modern Black Seminoles are known as "Seminole Freedmen" in Oklahoma, "Seminole Scouts" in Texas, "Black Indians" in the Bahamas, and "Mascogos" in Mexico.




 
_______________

It took the lumbees a long time to be reconized by the Native American Associations in the Carolinas because some have 40% african blood.

And I'm only telling you what a black Native American said, the black natives are look down upon.



Last edited on Friday December 15th, 2006 15:20 by kiley



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 Posted: Friday December 15th, 2006 15:18

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Prince Hakeem wrote: This Kiley troll chats a whole load of sh*t. Ignore it.

The same with you.



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 Posted: Friday December 15th, 2006 16:01

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Folks this is old news in the US.Native American and Blacks have a long history.The Lumbee Tribe in North Carolina look like Black folks and act like us by an large.

 

Inidian Hooiser basketball coach Kalvin Sampson is a member I think.

http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/ind/sports/m-baskbl/auto_headshot/487761.jpeg[/img[/url]]

Their site is interesting.

 

http://www.lumbeetribe.com/news_events/index.htm



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 Posted: Friday December 15th, 2006 16:17

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kiley wrote: Prince Hakeem wrote: This Kiley troll chats a whole load of sh*t. Ignore it.

The same with you.


At least my sh*t makes sense. :)



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 Posted: Friday December 15th, 2006 16:24

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TheDogon wrote: kiley wrote: The funny thing is most Native American tribes don't even reconize alot of the 'black Indian' tribes,but  quickly except the 1/4 native indian Chuck Norris and Johnny Depp types. These people are of African ancestry,why can't they take pride and research that?

Kiley, do you claim to be African-American?  Because if you are, you would know that many American Indians recognize Lumbee, Seminole, and Cherokee who have significant African heritage. 

 

The Black Seminoles are descendants of runaway slaves who escaped from coastal South Carolina and Georgia into the Florida wilderness beginning as early as the late 1600s. The runaway slaves joined with various Indian groups escaping into Florida at the same period. Together, the two groups formed the Seminole tribe, a multi-ethnic and bi-racial alliance. Today, Black Seminole descendants still live in rural communities in Oklahoma and Texas and in the Bahamas and Northern Mexico. In the 19th century the Florida "Black Seminoles" were called "Seminole Negroes" by their white American enemies and Estelusti, or "Black People," by their Indian allies. Modern Black Seminoles are known as "Seminole Freedmen" in Oklahoma, "Seminole Scouts" in Texas, "Black Indians" in the Bahamas, and "Mascogos" in Mexico.




 

My wife' grandmother is Seminole.  She inherited tanned skin that sunburns like a mofo.........

Looking at her you would never know it though as she still puts her African ancestry first..........



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 Posted: Friday December 15th, 2006 16:56

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kiley wrote: TheDogon wrote: kiley wrote: The funny thing is most Native American tribes don't even reconize alot of the 'black Indian' tribes,but  quickly except the 1/4 native indian Chuck Norris and Johnny Depp types. These people are of African ancestry,why can't they take pride and research that?

Kiley, do you claim to be African-American?  Because if you are, you would know that many American Indians recognize Lumbee, Seminole, and Cherokee who have significant African heritage. 

 

The Black Seminoles are descendants of runaway slaves who escaped from coastal South Carolina and Georgia into the Florida wilderness beginning as early as the late 1600s. The runaway slaves joined with various Indian groups escaping into Florida at the same period. Together, the two groups formed the Seminole tribe, a multi-ethnic and bi-racial alliance. Today, Black Seminole descendants still live in rural communities in Oklahoma and Texas and in the Bahamas and Northern Mexico. In the 19th century the Florida "Black Seminoles" were called "Seminole Negroes" by their white American enemies and Estelusti, or "Black People," by their Indian allies. Modern Black Seminoles are known as "Seminole Freedmen" in Oklahoma, "Seminole Scouts" in Texas, "Black Indians" in the Bahamas, and "Mascogos" in Mexico.




 
_______________

It took the lumbees a long time to be reconized by the Native American Associations in the Carolinas because some have 40% african blood.

And I'm only telling you what a black Native American said, the black natives are look down upon.


I would never characterize things as perfect.  Definitely "race" and/or colorism has plagued American Indians.  But this does not begin to compare with what Africans have experienced at the hands of your "White" saviours.

American Indians in the beginning welcomed us.  But it was us who turned to killing them like dogs on the plains of this nation.



 

 









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 Posted: Sunday December 17th, 2006 09:39

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Its very hard to criticize these people for identifying themselves as Black-indians when 1.) In different Indian tribes it takes no more than 1/8 indian blood to be "indian. 2.) I've seen completely European people claiming that they were Native American and winning group membership into a tribe.

As for personal experience, at first I didn't believe there were such things as BlackIndians. Until recently I thought all these people were just AA's claiming they were Indians because they had a straight nose or high cheekbones etc. If you've lived in the US you'll know that damn near every American claims to have a Cherokee Indian grandma. So I've learned to take these Indian blood declarations with a grain of salt. Whenever any AA sees something in them that doesn't look African to them they claim its "indian blood", despite the fact that IF it by chance isn't African its much more likely to come from White ancestry instead of Indian.

 

But.........................actually, when I was in high school we visited a nearby county called HALIFAX for a basketball game. And believe it or not  about 1/4 of the school looked clearly mixed Black and Indian. My dad was at the game and he told me that these people were called "issues" (sorry mispelled but I don't know the correct term, this is what the non-indian people in the town call them i hear).

Also, about 4 years ago on vacation me and my family visited the Cherokee mountains. It was very disappionting to say the least. Not only were 3/4 of the people there look like White men playing dress up I saw no Black influence in anything or ANYONE there. I believe Black/indian mixes broke off and formed their own communties while Indian/white mixes kept the tribal name and became the official "native Americans" tribes. When I was in the Cherokee mountains I saw hundreds of Confederate flags flying and EVERYONE looked like poor white trash. It was crazy. I was expecting people who looked like Poccohanis not George bush.

 



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 Posted: Sunday December 17th, 2006 21:00

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Answer: Yes

In prehistory when a large percentage of Native Americans mixed with Egyptians who "originally" travelled to North America -- this set the mixture.

Question:  Who do u think taught them art? And why do you think their art is so similar to African art?

Our "second" coming just solidified this little know fact! 

Not to mention, so-Called Whites who claim native American heritage who are in fact  claiming african heritage whether visibly intelligible or no...!

 

Reading is Fundamental:  "Dirty Little Secrets" by Dr. Claud Anderson

 

Last edited on Sunday December 17th, 2006 21:03 by Fine1952



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 Posted: Sunday December 17th, 2006 21:31

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I've never heard of the ancient Egyptians travelling to America. Where's the proof, Fine? How do you know the Africans didn't get the art from the Indians?



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 Posted: Wednesday December 20th, 2006 16:23

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Suggested Reading for alabamagirl:

1. "Before Columbus; Links Between the Old World and Ancient America" by Cyrus H. Gordon--1971

2. "1491 New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus" by Charles C. Mann--2005**

 

 

 

 

 

 

Last edited on Saturday December 23rd, 2006 19:40 by Fine1952



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 Posted: Wednesday December 20th, 2006 16:42

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Burning Spear wrote: Folks this is old news in the US.Native American and Blacks have a long history.The Lumbee Tribe in North Carolina look like Black folks and act like us by an large.

 

Inidian Hooiser basketball coach Kalvin Sampson is a member I think.

http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/ind/sports/m-baskbl/auto_headshot/487761.jpeg[/img[/url]]

Their site is interesting.

 

http://www.lumbeetribe.com/news_events/index.htm

yeah, I noticed many of the women in the Lumbee tribe go out of their way to date black men.  Was kinda shocked.

Last edited on Wednesday December 20th, 2006 16:42 by DSP



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 Posted: Wednesday December 27th, 2006 23:47

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DSP wrote: Burning Spear wrote: Folks this is old news in the US.Native American and Blacks have a long history.The Lumbee Tribe in North Carolina look like Black folks and act like us by an large.

 

Inidian Hooiser basketball coach Kalvin Sampson is a member I think.

http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/ind/sports/m-baskbl/auto_headshot/487761.jpeg[/img[/url]]

Their site is interesting.

 

http://www.lumbeetribe.com/news_events/index.htm

yeah, I noticed many of the women in the Lumbee tribe go out of their way to date black men.  Was kinda shocked.



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The lumbees don't even reconize their black blood.



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 Posted: Wednesday December 27th, 2006 23:48

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DSP wrote: Burning Spear wrote: Folks this is old news in the US.Native American and Blacks have a long history.The Lumbee Tribe in North Carolina look like Black folks and act like us by an large.

 

Inidian Hooiser basketball coach Kalvin Sampson is a member I think.

http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/ind/sports/m-baskbl/auto_headshot/487761.jpeg[/img[/url]]

Their site is interesting.

 

http://www.lumbeetribe.com/news_events/index.htm

yeah, I noticed many of the women in the Lumbee tribe go out of their way to date black men.  Was kinda shocked.



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The lumbees don't even reconize their percentage of black blood. many only claim white and native blood so I don't know where you got that information from.

Last edited on Wednesday December 27th, 2006 23:50 by kiley



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 Posted: Thursday December 28th, 2006 00:00

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I've never heard of half of this stuff either Kiley......



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 Posted: Thursday December 28th, 2006 00:02

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safetyblitz wrote: TheDogon wrote: kiley wrote: The funny thing is most Native American tribes don't even reconize alot of the 'black Indian' tribes,but  quickly except the 1/4 native indian Chuck Norris and Johnny Depp types. These people are of African ancestry,why can't they take pride and research that?

Kiley, do you claim to be African-American?  Because if you are, you would know that many American Indians recognize Lumbee, Seminole, and Cherokee who have significant African heritage. 

 

The Black Seminoles are descendants of runaway slaves who escaped from coastal South Carolina and Georgia into the Florida wilderness beginning as early as the late 1600s. The runaway slaves joined with various Indian groups escaping into Florida at the same period. Together, the two groups formed the Seminole tribe, a multi-ethnic and bi-racial alliance. Today, Black Seminole descendants still live in rural communities in Oklahoma and Texas and in the Bahamas and Northern Mexico. In the 19th century the Florida "Black Seminoles" were called "Seminole Negroes" by their white American enemies and Estelusti, or "Black People," by their Indian allies. Modern Black Seminoles are known as "Seminole Freedmen" in Oklahoma, "Seminole Scouts" in Texas, "Black Indians" in the Bahamas, and "Mascogos" in Mexico.




 

My wife' grandmother is Seminole.  She inherited tanned skin that sunburns like a mofo.........

Looking at her you would never know it though as she still puts her African ancestry first..........

_____________________

Do you know native Americans kept African slaves? In America and other spanish countries?


Researching Black Indian Genealogy of the Five Civilized Tribes It is known that many Africans intermarried with Native Americans. Less widely known is the fact that many Native Americans also owned African slaves, and fathered children with African slave women. In addition there were smaller numbers Free People of Color who lived in many of the nations and who also lived and married persons from the same nations, and whose descendants claim ancestry from the Oklahoma Black Indian people. As a result, thousands of Americans have African and Indian ancestry.

http://www.nativeweb.org/resources/genealogy_tracing_roots_/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_Spanish_New_World_colonies

Thats why some Africans have native ancestry,some native tribes tried to and did absorbed the Africans who became part of their communities through keeping them as slaves ,after they signed treaties with the state government,because they no long had a need for them.



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 Posted: Thursday December 28th, 2006 19:32

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What "us"?

TheDogon wrote: kiley wrote: TheDogon wrote: kiley wrote: The funny thing is most Native American tribes don't even reconize alot of the 'black Indian' tribes,but  quickly except the 1/4 native indian Chuck Norris and Johnny Depp types. These people are of African ancestry,why can't they take pride and research that?

Kiley, do you claim to be African-American?  Because if you are, you would know that many American Indians recognize Lumbee, Seminole, and Cherokee who have significant African heritage. 

 

The Black Seminoles are descendants of runaway slaves who escaped from coastal South Carolina and Georgia into the Florida wilderness beginning as early as the late 1600s. The runaway slaves joined with various Indian groups escaping into Florida at the same period. Together, the two groups formed the Seminole tribe, a multi-ethnic and bi-racial alliance. Today, Black Seminole descendants still live in rural communities in Oklahoma and Texas and in the Bahamas and Northern Mexico. In the 19th century the Florida "Black Seminoles" were called "Seminole Negroes" by their white American enemies and Estelusti, or "Black People," by their Indian allies. Modern Black Seminoles are known as "Seminole Freedmen" in Oklahoma, "Seminole Scouts" in Texas, "Black Indians" in the Bahamas, and "Mascogos" in Mexico.




 
_______________

It took the lumbees a long time to be reconized by the Native American Associations in the Carolinas because some have 40% african blood.

And I'm only telling you what a black Native American said, the black natives are look down upon.


I would never characterize things as perfect.  Definitely "race" and/or colorism has plagued American Indians.  But this does not begin to compare with what Africans have experienced at the hands of your "White" saviours.

American Indians in the beginning welcomed us.  But it was us who turned to killing them like dogs on the plains of this nation.



 

 











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 Posted: Thursday December 28th, 2006 19:39

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girlfromthenc wrote:there. I believe Black/indian mixes broke off and formed their own communties while Indian/white mixes kept the tribal name and became the official "native Americans" tribes. When I was in the Cherokee mountains I saw hundreds of Confederate flags flying and EVERYONE looked like poor white trash. It was crazy. 

Most of the Eastern Cherokees aligned thenselves with the Confederates who sought to reinstate the slave trade. COnfedrate flags should be no surprise its part of their "heritage".

 




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 Posted: Thursday December 28th, 2006 21:40

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101stAirborne wrote: What "us"?

TheDogon wrote: kiley wrote: TheDogon wrote: kiley wrote: The funny thing is most Native American tribes don't even reconize alot of the 'black Indian' tribes,but  quickly except the 1/4 native indian Chuck Norris and Johnny Depp types. These people are of African ancestry,why can't they take pride and research that?

Kiley, do you claim to be African-American?  Because if you are, you would know that many American Indians recognize Lumbee, Seminole, and Cherokee who have significant African heritage. 

 

The Black Seminoles are descendants of runaway slaves who escaped from coastal South Carolina and Georgia into the Florida wilderness beginning as early as the late 1600s. The runaway slaves joined with various Indian groups escaping into Florida at the same period. Together, the two groups formed the Seminole tribe, a multi-ethnic and bi-racial alliance. Today, Black Seminole descendants still live in rural communities in Oklahoma and Texas and in the Bahamas and Northern Mexico. In the 19th century the Florida "Black Seminoles" were called "Seminole Negroes" by their white American enemies and Estelusti, or "Black People," by their Indian allies. Modern Black Seminoles are known as "Seminole Freedmen" in Oklahoma, "Seminole Scouts" in Texas, "Black Indians" in the Bahamas, and "Mascogos" in Mexico.




 
_______________

It took the lumbees a long time to be reconized by the Native American Associations in the Carolinas because some have 40% african blood.

And I'm only telling you what a black Native American said, the black natives are look down upon.


I would never characterize things as perfect.  Definitely "race" and/or colorism has plagued American Indians.  But this does not begin to compare with what Africans have experienced at the hands of your "White" saviours.

American Indians in the beginning welcomed us.  But it was us who turned to killing them like dogs on the plains of this nation.



 

 






_______________________

I know yes but Some Native American had slaves just like whites did,so that doesn't make them any different. They killed too.


Researching Black Indian Genealogy of the Five Civilized Tribes It is known that many Africans intermarried with Native Americans. Less widely known is the fact that many Native Americans also owned African slaves, and fathered children with African slave women. In addition there were smaller numbers Free People of Color who lived in many of the nations and who also lived and married persons from the same nations, and whose descendants claim ancestry from the Oklahoma Black Indian people. As a result, thousands of Americans have African and Indian ancestry.


URL
http://www.nativeweb.org/resources/genealogy_tracing_roots_/



About Africans and the cheerokee indians:


"In 1809, nearly 600 enslaved blacks lived in the Cherokee nation. This number increased to almost 1,600 in 1835 and to around 4,000 in 1860. Cherokee populations for these dates are: 12,400 in 1809, 16,400 in 1835, and 21,000 in 1860. The proportion of families that owned slaves never exceeded ten percent, comparable to the percentage among white families across the South. In the 1835 census, only eight percent of Cherokee households contained slaves, and only three Cherokee owned more than 50 slaves. Joseph Vann had the most, owning 110. Of the 207 Cherokee listed as owning slaves, 168, or 83 percent, owned less than ten slaves. Of the slave-owning families, 78 percent claimed some white ancestry".




"The harsher treatment of blacks by the Five Civilized Tribes, including the Seminoles, possibly stemmed in part from the larger number of enslaved blacks held by Indians after the removal. The number of enslaved blacks among the Creeks increased from 502 to 1,532; among the Cherokees, the number grew from 1,592, to 2,511; among the Choctaw, from 512 to 2.349; and among the Chickasaw, the number climbed from several hundred to around 1,000. For the Seminole, the number increased from 500 to less than 1,000, although most scholars dispute this figure as too high in view of the many who are known to have been stolen and sold by slavers or else who had run off to Mexico".



"The Choctaw put off embracing the formerly enslaved as tribal members until 1885; only the Chickasaw, however, refused to take this step, never recognizing their formerly enslaved blacks as full tribal members. (For more a more in-depth look at the Seminoles and formerly enslaved blacks, read the Seminoles and Slaves: Florida's Freedom Seekers ".


URL:

http://www.slaveryinamerica.org/history/hs_es_indians_slavery.htm








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 Posted: Thursday December 28th, 2006 22:11

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kiley wrote: 
I know yes but Some Native American had slaves just like whites did,so that doesn't make them any different. They killed too.


Researching Black Indian Genealogy of the Five Civilized Tribes It is known that many Africans intermarried with Native Americans. Less widely known is the fact that many Native Americans also owned African slaves, and fathered children with African slave women. In addition there were smaller numbers Free People of Color who lived in many of the nations and who also lived and married persons from the same nations, and whose descendants claim ancestry from the Oklahoma Black Indian people. As a result, thousands of Americans have African and Indian ancestry.


URL
http://www.nativeweb.org/resources/genealogy_tracing_roots_/



About Africans and the cheerokee indians:


"In 1809, nearly 600 enslaved blacks lived in the Cherokee nation. This number increased to almost 1,600 in 1835 and to around 4,000 in 1860. Cherokee populations for these dates are: 12,400 in 1809, 16,400 in 1835, and 21,000 in 1860. The proportion of families that owned slaves never exceeded ten percent, comparable to the percentage among white families across the South. In the 1835 census, only eight percent of Cherokee households contained slaves, and only three Cherokee owned more than 50 slaves. Joseph Vann had the most, owning 110. Of the 207 Cherokee listed as owning slaves, 168, or 83 percent, owned less than ten slaves. Of the slave-owning families, 78 percent claimed some white ancestry".




"The harsher treatment of blacks by the Five Civilized Tribes, including the Seminoles, possibly stemmed in part from the larger number of enslaved blacks held by Indians after the removal. The number of enslaved blacks among the Creeks increased from 502 to 1,532; among the Cherokees, the number grew from 1,592, to 2,511; among the Choctaw, from 512 to 2.349; and among the Chickasaw, the number climbed from several hundred to around 1,000. For the Seminole, the number increased from 500 to less than 1,000, although most scholars dispute this figure as too high in view of the many who are known to have been stolen and sold by slavers or else who had run off to Mexico".



"The Choctaw put off embracing the formerly enslaved as tribal members until 1885; only the Chickasaw, however, refused to take this step, never recognizing their formerly enslaved blacks as full tribal members. (For more a more in-depth look at the Seminoles and formerly enslaved blacks, read the Seminoles and Slaves: Florida's Freedom Seekers ".


URL:

http://www.slaveryinamerica.org/history/hs_es_indians_slavery.htm


Kiley, you just don't understand what "White" supremacy is.  Get this book. . .read it.  I am not saying this will change your life.  But it will at least "upgrade" your conversation so that you will know what you are dealing with here. . .at the "Black" Village. . .




http://www.amazon.com/Yurugu-African-Centered-Critique-Cultural-Behavior/dp/0865432481









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 Posted: Saturday December 30th, 2006 05:57

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I was on this site called mjnewsonline and there was this thread that is 17 pages long. People were arguing about whether the Jackson's had Cherokee heritage and I'm like does it even matter? So what, who cares?  confused3 It's nothing special.



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 Posted: Sunday December 31st, 2006 16:33

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There were Black people in the Americas long before Columbus or Mongoloids.The Ethnic American Black people are a people unto ourselves.Many of us that claim "indian" are not aware that our "part indian" ancestors were actually of indigenous American stock.There is enough American Blacks that know the truth to school the ignorant....

Black Africans didn't exist in the Americas before contact, nor in Asia or Polynesia.

There were Black peoples from Asia,Oceania,Pacific Islands,and Africa  in the Americas,long before Columbus or Mongoloids.The mongoloids aren't even the original Asians...They were Black people.....





Buddha SE Asia



Shang Dynasty China



Austronesia



Andaman Islands


The Andaman Islanders share the same ABO Blood group as people in Somalia. The stealing of young Melanesians to work in the cane fields of Australia and Fiji was called "Blackbirding." Europeans in big ships with muskets, axes and mattocks would seduce naive islanders on board to look at other treasures. Sometimes they were offered a pleasure cruise that never came back. One account tells how recruiters in the bay of a missioned island stood on deck with hymnbooks, singing, until the islanders paddled out for a look. They were told falsely that a Bishop was on board; they clambered up and were promptly thrown in the hold.   It is quite interesting reading.  Her website goes into great detail about the Wild Borneo Man, Malaysia, and other parts of the Oceanic Islands.  The picture shows the now EXTINCT Tasmanian Aborigines (1860). The pictures of the Tasmanians come from the following website:




Tasmania



Sri Lanka
 China 1000 AD

Thailand

 India

 Papau New Guinea

 Phillipenes




CHINESE ROOTS LIE IN AFRICA, RESEARCH SAYS



by Robert Lee Holts, Times Science Writer
(Los Angeles Times, September 29, 1998)


Most of the population of modern China--one fifth of all the people living today--owes its genetic origins to Africa, an international scientific team said today in research that undercuts any theory that modern humans may have originated independently in China.

In the search for human origins, in which political beliefs and pride of place can figure as prominently as fossil evidence, the genetic findings dramatically illustrate the intricate weave of prehistoric migrations and human evolution, the scientists said.

Published today in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Scientists, the study is the product of the Chinese Human Genome Diversity Project, a consortium of seven major research groups in the People's Republic of China, and the Human Genetics Center at the University of Texas Health Science Center at Houston.  It was funded by the National Natural Science Foundation of China.

Detailed Genetic Profiles Created

The group used the advanced tools of DNA analysis to create detailed genetic profiles of 28 of China's official population groups, which comprise more than 90% of the country's population, to better understand the roots of complex chronic diseases among so many of China's ethnic groups, the team also shed light on the ancestry of the people in East Asia, who, like everyone, carry in every cell of their bodies genetic hints about their evolutionary history and the journey of their forebears.

"The contribution [of this study] is very significant to the literature of human evolution," said Ranjan Deka at the University of Cincinnati, who studies human genetic variation.  "The findings also will have a lot of bearing in the study of genetic diseases."

Until now, other research said, few studies of human population genetics have taken such a comprehensive look at China.  Stanford University geneticist Luca Cavalli-Sforza, an authority on human genetic variation, said.  "It is very encouraging to see a cooperative effort of this magnitude beginning to take place in this most important part of the world, and [they] are to be warmly congratulated for it."

In all, the Chinese government today recognizes 56 ethnic groups.  Just one of them, the Han, makes up the bulk of the population, comprising about 1.1 billion people.   The other 55 ethnic minority groups encompass about 100 million people spread throughout China.

To study the diverse genetic inheritance of such an enormous population, the researchers used a special set of genetic markers called microsatellites.  These extremely short chemical segments of DNA mutate very rapidly.  That allows scientists to use them as signposts to mark how populations diverged or merged over time, reconstructing their evolutionary journey through time and across the continents to their contemporary abodes.

The scientists looked at 30 such microsatellite markers across 28 of the population groups in China and then compared the pattern to 11 other population groups around the world.

The researchers demonstrated that the people of northern and southern China cluster into distinct regional genetic populations that share inherited characteristics.   Those groups in turn, can be divided into even smaller, separate genetic groups.

Yet, overall they all are descendants of a single population group that may have migrated into China from the south eons before humans learned to forge metal tools or use a written alphabet, the new research suggests.

"Populations from East Asia always derived from a single lineage, indicating the single origins of those populations," the researchers said.  "It is now probably safe to conclude that modern humans originating in Africa constitute the majority of the current gene pool in East Asia," they said.

Then several hundred thousand years later, some theorize, a second wave of more sophisticated tool-using human migrated out of Africa and overwhelmed those earlier ancestors.  According to that theory, modern humans are descended solely from those especially sophisticated tool-users.

http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/china1.html






But jumping from there to clime Chinese civilization belong to Black Americans.... Jesus! That's is a long jump into logical nonsense.



You can't even spell "clime",idiot.I have never stated that "Chinese civilization belong to Black Americans"..I simply refuted this dumb "clime" of yours....

Black Africans didn't exist in the Americas before contact, nor in Asia or Polynesia.


There were Black peoples from Asia,Oceania,Pacific Islands,and Africa  in the Americas,long before Columbus or Mongoloids.The mongoloids aren't even the original Asians...They were Black people.....







That's just dreamming. You aren't even "dreamming",dummy.You are comatose if you think that your outlandish and ridiculous arguments are of any real scientific merit.Hang it up,skippy..Your argument has no basis in reality whatsoever....

Why don't you go back to West Africans an study your real ancestors?  That is what I am doing,moron.My ancestors were of the Black Race.There were fully human Black people of differing types on this Earth in Europe,Americas,Asia,Pacific Islands,Africa and etc. long before any of you Non Black mutants ever existed.

There is nothing shameful in descending of people that has a simple culture. What is shameful is to replace our real ancestors by fantasies. You are the only one shameful using outdated and silly rhetoric  as if that shows  people smelting iron  long before 1000 BC were somehow "simple".The only thing simple is your debate style as you have failed continuously to refute one fact,moron....



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 Posted: Sunday December 31st, 2006 16:36

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There were Black peoples in the Americas,long before Columbus or Mongoloids...



Maya Magician with Snake in Mouth



West African Magician with Snake in Mouth

 Olmec

 

 Ohio

 SE USA

 Olmec

 Olmec

 Olmec with Afro

 Olmec with CORNROWS



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 Posted: Sunday December 31st, 2006 16:41

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Idiot,there were Black peoples in the Americas,long before Columbus or Mongoloids...Accept the facts!
The fact is they have tried to ROBB THE HERITAGE OF NATIVE AMERICANS. They will never succeed.   The Great Ethnic American Black people  don't have to "robb" nothing from ourselves...There were Black people in the Americas from Asia,Oceania,Africa,Pacific Islands,and etc.,long before Columbus or Mongoloids....

 Luzia-Black people were in the Americas thousands upon thousands of years prior to mongoloids....

 

Onge of SE Asia

 Luzia was found to most resemble the Black people of Asia,Oceania,Pacific Islands,Africa,and etc....

The face of "Luzia" was reconstructed using modern forensic methods and its morphology painstakingly analysed by craniometric measurements. The reconstruction brought to light and and the measurements confirmed that "Luzia" was not a mongoloid Amerindian but had features indicating a possibly Australoid or southeast Asian ancestry. When it was dated to around 11,500 to 12,500 years ago (the oldest human remains found so far in the Americas), the sensation was perfect.

Since Luzia's discovery, at least 50 similarly un-mongoloid Palaeoamerican remains have been found in the Lagoa Santa area near where "Luzia" herself was found. They all seem to have been buried within a small area that may have been a cemetery. This rises the intriguing question of whether the Lagoa Santa population at this early time was perhaps already settled in a specific area and perhaps even no longer just hunter-gatherers. There are a lot of unanswered questions about the Lagoa Santa people that cry out for further research.

The craniometric analysis of the skulls found later confirms that "Luzia" was not a single aberrant individual but belonged to an established population with apparently southeast Asian characteristics. "Luzia" herself is now in the National Museum at Rio de Janeiro while most of the other finds are stored at the Natural History Museum, Belo Horizonte in Minas Gerais.

Her investigators think of "Luzia" as Australoid. She could be. However, at the Andaman Association we cannot help thinking that the Lagoa Santa people look more Negritoid than Australoid in the way her facial features have been reconstructed (see picture above). Our president, George Weber, says that his own spontaneous reaction to seeing the restored face of "Luzia" for the first time was an astonished "my God! an Onge woman in Brazil!"

If Luzia was indeed Negritoid, it would do away with the somewhat unlikely crossing of the Pacific at such an early date as well as with the enormous return trek by Australians from Australia via Siberia and Alaska into the Americas (a lot of which would have led through their left-behind cousins' hunting territories).There is evidence that both modern Australians and modern Negritos (along with Melanesians, Papuans, Veddoids and some others) come from the same original immigrant stock and are thus distantly related. The wanderings of the Americans-to-be would most likely have taken them along the coast of China and Japan (which was not an island then).

http://www.andaman.org/BOOK/chapter54/text54.htm

I ask you just a question: Why Black Americans have to look for pride in Chiapas and Guatemala instead of West Africa?   Why do idiots try to argue against DNA as opposed to reaching obvious logical conclusions?The fact of the matter is that Black peoples were in the Americas,long before Columbus or Mongoloids...Accept it!

Please, invest in good books. What you are reading is a political ideology that has not root in reality.  Shut up,DUMMY,you are dead wrong...Argue with the DNA,ASSWIPE...












 

Dr. Kumaraswamy Thangaraj takes blood samples from an Onge woman.


Using blood samples, they compared the complete sequence of the mitochondrial DNA extracted from five members each of the Onge and Great Andamanese, all part of the negrito group of inhabitants of the islands.

To their surprise, the team found that the Onge and Great Andamanese resembled the African population more closely than east Asians or even the mainland Indian population of today.

This, according to them, could have happened only if the Onge and Great Andamanese were almost direct descendants of the first human beings believed to have been born in Africa 150,000 years ago.

Lalji Singh says this migration through the sea may have happened some 65,000-70,000 years ago and predates the land journey by about 10,000 years. In effect, the new evidence makes these two tribes possibly the oldest surviving human stock in Asia.

Lalji Singh calls them, ''immensely unique and very precious for humanity''.

http://www.andaman.org/BOOK/news_negrito/2005/2005.htm

 



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 Posted: Wednesday January 3rd, 2007 13:09

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First of all you need to stop calling people idiots, theories about ethnographic origin are just that; theories to be proven and disproven with increasing levels of new data….
A lot of the supposed facts I've read so fair seem to focus on a slightly sophisticated form of the old style eugenics….if that’s the case then you’ll are arguing over nothing… if America is the supposeded melting pot ..then can’t you’ll just get along…after with no other place on earth ( except may be London ) with so many ethnic groups intermingling why can’t you’ll just hug and be friends…gosh darn it!!



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 Posted: Wednesday January 3rd, 2007 13:43

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First of all you need to stop calling people idiots, You are an idiot..  theories about ethnographic origin are just that; theories to be proven and disproven with increasing levels of new data…. Theory my ASS...You OBVIOUSLY have not one bit of education about DNA.This simply goes over your head.I will prove it.
A lot of the supposed facts I've read so fair seem to focus on a slightly sophisticated form of the old style eugenics….

The belief that information about heredity can be used to improve the human race.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=0&oi=define&q=http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/publicat/genechoice/glossary.html&usg=__4MxmoILR1DzgW_fYuTBOT5Ak3c4=

This is the DEFINTION of "eugenics".We know that you just pulled the word out of your ass and simply don't know what it means.A study of Mitochondrial DNA that concludes that Black people of Asia,Oceania,and Pacific Islands are BLACK is far from "eugenics".It's actually stating the OBVIOUS that these BLACK people are BLACK as the DNA studies have concluded that ancient genetic mutations make them closer to Africans than any other group on this Earth and their "unique origin" is derived from them being direct descendants of the FIRST peoples to leave Africa.Where is the "eugenics" in that,you jackass?

 

if that’s the case then you’ll are arguing over nothing… You are the only one arguing,dummy.These posts come an old debate from another website. if America is the supposeded melting pot You can't even spell "supposeded".No wonder your dumb ass is stating that DNA studies are "eugenics",you idiot...then can’t you’ll Idiot, "you'll" means YOU WILL... just get along…after with no other place on earth ( except may be London ) with so many ethnic groups intermingling why can’t you’ll Inarticulate buffoon... just hug and be friends…gosh darn it!! What are you talking about,dummy?This thread is from a scientific debate.Your silly ass doesn't know "eugenics",DNA,and Mitochondria from a hole in the group...Stick to your legos....





The Black groups like the Onge and Jarawa left Africa up to 100,000 years ago.Of course they have a "unique origin" as they are direct descendants of the first people that left Africa up to 100,000 years ago and have lived in isolation since.Ancient genetic mutations found in this group have proved that they are closer to Africans than any surviving population...Stop trying to argue with DNA,you moron....









 









Dummy,you don't understand.The Mitochondrial DNA section used in that study is  HYPERVARIABLE.GET IT,MORON.I'm putting up the GENETIC studies that explains this in more details,you idiot.Stop trying to argue with the DNA... 









In other words, more advanced studies have shown that these Black people share affinity with  Mongoloid type Asians (DUHH!These Black people are/were the INDIGENOUS ASIANS and this is as all of them appeared before they mixed with the Mongoloid that became the predominant Asiatic type over the ages with few exception) and also with their racial kinsmen in AFRICA as it has been proven that Black groups like Onge group more with Africans than Mongoloids,you silly rabbit ...

Earlier work by the same group on the three tribes had suggested that Andamanese Negritos have closer affinities with Asian than with African populations...But these links relied on sections of the mtDNA that are known to be hypervariable. Analysis of the complete mtDNA sequence of five Onge, five Great Andamanese...told a different story, notes Thangaraj.....

http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/jul182005/snt816492005717.asp

The first Indians

Among the world’s oldest indigenous populations, too














Looking into the past: An Andamanese giving a blood sample 









Indian scientists have uncovered a missing link in the prehistoric human migration jigsaw puzzle by revealing that two reclusive tribes in the Andaman and Nicobar Islands are among the world’s oldest surviving indigenous groups.

The researchers from the Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology , in Hyderabad, have gathered enough genetic clues to prove that the Great Andamanese and the Onge, whose numbers are shrinking day by day, are the direct descendants of modern humans who evolved in east Africa some 150,000 years ago (Science, May 13, Vol 308, No 5724).









“Ancient genetic mutations found in these groups make them closer to Africans than any other populations that survive today,â€? Lalji Singh, ccmb director and a co-author of the study, told Down To Earth.









 On the contrary, the Andaman tribes reached there much earlier — about 65,000 years back. The modern humans are believed to have started moving out of Africa about 70,000 years ago.









http://www.downtoearth.org.in/full6.asp?foldername=20050615&filename=news&sec_id=4&sid=9



First human migrated to Andamans from Africa














An Onge tribal








GENETICISTS at the Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology (CCMB), Hyderabad, have established through DNA analysis that the early human had “first� migrated out of Africa taking the “South route� via India to reach Andamans Islands, some 70,000 years ago.
Reconstructing the pre-historic human colonisation of the world, the CCMB geneticists claimed that their studies of the maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) had established that modern human arose possibly about 1.5 lakh years ago from East Africa and had reached the Andaman Islands by taking the route along the Indian Coast. They later reached Nicobar Islands as well.
“Our study suggested that the Onge and the Great Andamanese are unique in their origin,� CCMB Director Lalji Singh, who unveiled the findings after a “complete mtDNA analysis� of 16,569 base pairs of five each of Onge, Great Andamanese and Nicobarese, has claimed.
“Novel mutation found by us in mtDNA of the Onge and Great Andamanese helped in placing them in two unique branches — defined as M31 and M32, for the first time in the world by CCMB — in the human evolutionary tree�.
The three-year CCMB study, led by Dr K Thangaraj, reconstructed that some modern humans, who came out of Africa over 70,000 years ago and ventured into the northern coastal areas of Indian Ocean, finally reached Andaman Islands.
The two ancient maternal lineages had evolved in the Andaman Islands in genetic isolation, independently from other South-East Asian population, the study, which was reported in the prestigious ‘Science’ journal, suggested.




http://www.tribuneindia.com/2005/20050520/science.htm#1



Dummy,stop trying to argue with the DNA....

Last edited on Wednesday January 3rd, 2007 14:06 by KooolHerc



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