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obal85
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Posted: Saturday January 24th, 2004 04:49 |
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Do descendants of white colonialist in Zimbabwe deserve to own land in Zimbabwe?.....Despite the fact that their forefathers especially Rhodes went there to steal lands belonging to african indigenious people.
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untitled
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Posted: Saturday January 24th, 2004 19:58 |
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No, they don't but I'd rather see them in control of that land. Reason being that they put that land to much better use than it being put to now. Part of the reason that Zimbabwe was one of Africa's success stories was due to it's agricultural prowess. Now, that idiot of a president has given away the one thing that makes Zimbabwe a force to be reckoned with because of his own hate for white people. They aren't going to use it to better the nation. They aren't even going to use it to better themselves... most of the people that Bob has given the land to are so poor that buying seed and fertilisers is beyond their ability so the land will lie farrow. So who wins in the end? The country is a complete wreck. People resort to eating tree bark and leaves because of a severe shortage of food.
If anything, I would rather have seen that land be divided between the farmers and the Zimbabwean people. Because the farmers were Zimbabwean by virtue of birth and because they farmed in effect for the nation (though making a tidy profit as well; but hey, that's just a part of life...) I would have liked to have seen them keep at least SOME of the land to continue doing so and with the remainder of the land given back to the people, work with them to help them better themselves and in time, the nation. Looking at the present situation, true you have the land given to its rightful owners, but what now?
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MrBanks
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Posted: Wednesday February 4th, 2004 03:22 |
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Untitled:
I agree with you.
Olba:
First of all, I think that whites BORN in Zimbabwe technically DO have the right to own land simply because they WERE born there.
But they shouldn't have an inordinate amount of land or DOMINATE the agricultural economy like they were doing in South Africa and like they're starting to do in Mozambique, either.
Look, regardless of the crimes that there parents commited the people BORN in that land really do have just as much right to the land as any one else.
I'm only being fair and righteous in my observation.
If you say they should be put out the land because they're white...who's to say that us blacks and whites in Europe and America shouldn't be put out also and sent back to Africa?
Most black people feel the way I do deep down (I said MOST...not all) but the only problem is that we know that the whites have historically passed these vast amounts of land down generation after generation but got the land unfairly.
So we wanna take it all back.
I think that when Zimbabwe got her independance the land should have either ALL went to the government under socialism or it should have been divided evenly among all the adults.
Then the government should have launched massive educational projects to teach blacks the skills and sciences of agriculture and ecology so that we would be just as qualified as whites in maintaining the land and producing food and cotton and other goods.
Instead, too many of us became lazy and shiftless under the yolk of colonization like we did in slavery.
Instead of LEARNING how to work, too many wanna snatch the land way from the whites...then sit on it grinning and smoking funny herbs doing nothing.
Some sit on a bucket in the middle of a field wiggling their toes in the soil expecting sh*t to start growing on it's own.
Or wait for the West to drop packages of oatmeal from the sky when we're living in a tropical paradise that can grow damn near anything.
There's NO REASON what so f*cking ever that deserts should be growning in Central and Southern Africa!
The problem is the attitude of the people.
Now that colonism is "officially" over...no one wants to be a worker that produces and cultivates, everyone wants to be a leader or soldier who takes by force.
How many Zimbabs are trying to be farmers and plantation workers now?
Mugabe should reconstruct the educational system and make farming and agricultural work honorable and respectable again instead of giving all these men guns to play with.
Yeah yeah I know......
It sounded cool to me too!  
In the beginning when Mugabe was taking the land back and redistributing it...
Him and his military gets together and run the devils out the land and return it to it's former glory....it all sounds wonderful.
But after while reality sets in.
My worse nightmares were confirmed.
I was hoping that these negros wouldn't force whites off the land and out of the government only to end up f*cking everything up and having to come back to another white man on their knees.
Whites DID steal land in Africa and the Americas but they got their asses out in the field and WORKED to cultivate the soil. They didn't just kill off the natives and use up the land until they had nothing left......then starved to death.
They WORKED!!!
We're gonna have to do the same.
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Hesaid
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Posted: Wednesday February 4th, 2004 07:19 |
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Im free
Im free
Im free
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MrBanks
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Posted: Wednesday February 4th, 2004 08:38 |
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Hesaid: 
What was that?
An impression of Janet Jackson's right titty?  
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untitled
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Posted: Wednesday February 4th, 2004 17:20 |
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MrBanks,
Those were some brilliant points you raised! Especially regarding how peeps are just going to sit and wait for more handouts from either their own rotting, corruption-infested government or the West. Which is kinda funny, considering that one of the fundamental "lessons" you can pick up anywhere in Africa is that if you want something, you better damn well work for it. With no benefits system, if you have nothing, you literally have nothing...
Being given this land is a gift unlike any other. But I think it was very badly thought out. It's like a Bush election campaign. "I need the people to think I'm the best thing that ever happened to them... the people in the cities KNOW I'm a senile, corrupt philandering b**tard, but the people in the rural areas haven't a clue. I know, I'll give them something to keep them dumb like that. Hmmm... what do they REALLY want??" Okay, that's a somewhat cynical approach, but he actually did give people the land to keep them believing in him, that much is true.
Hesaid,
How long have you been waiting to let that one out? No pun intended.
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YOLANDA
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Posted: Wednesday February 4th, 2004 18:49 |
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Descandants of white settlers in Southern (for this is an issue across Southern although more predominantly Zimbabwe and South Africa) have put over the last century put in a lot of work to make the land work for them. They have studied the land experimented and found the right balance to make the land productive and to keep system sustainable. As things stand some of this expertise is being lost. Small scale African farmers and most of those settled in rural areas fall into this catergory are good at what they do. Year on year they farm and should the rains be sufficient they harvest enough to feed their their families and sell the surplus.
Taking large scale commercial farms that have been developed over 100years and handing to people who have no experience in their workings is setting those recipients for a fall and worse setting the country up for famine.
was land redistribution necessary - hell yeah. If you ever travelled Zimbabwe the descrepancy was all too abvious. Dry areas with poor soils for the blacks. Lush verdant productive land for the whites. Grounds for for redistribution yes. But a fair redistribution. Fair for all the blacks and the whites. The land continues to produce. The country is fed and trade in the surplus continues. It s so simple yet it has been complicated by Mugabe and his cronies and confusion and mayhem sown across the board.
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Kush
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Posted: Friday February 6th, 2004 07:50 |
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obal85 wrote:
.....Despite the fact that their forefathers especially Rhodes went there to steal lands belonging to african indigenious people.
Despite the fact... what are you, some kind of Uncle Tom N****r? Afrika belongs to Afrikans, irrespective of what we do with our land, if you and yours wish to live under white-world domination so be it, but some of us have other plans!
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Geoff
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Posted: Saturday February 7th, 2004 09:32 |
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The situation in Zim is a tragedy,the people for the most part are hardworking and educated.The education was driven by Mugabe,one of his better ideas.
There cannot be any doubt that whites came by the land by theft and deception originally and had no rights to own it...but as Zimbabwe has been Independent for 20 odd years it would have been better to have sorted the problem out back then,just after independence and not leave it until comparatively recently when it became an opportunists way of hanging on to populist power.
The farmers have the legal deeds for the lands they farm given to them by the present government after independance..There are obviously some racial overtones with a wealthy elite farming community being predominately white,but over the previous 20 years surely a program picking off farms up for resale to be managed by africans working alongside the acquired knowledge of white farmers would have kept a continuity of food supply for the country.
Irrigation schemes along side the established farms,enlarging the farming area available and then establishing african owned farms.Isreal has created productive land from nothing...with a lot of money pumped in...Zimbabwe could do the same..over time.I dont want to start a Zionist debate here about the amount of aid Isreal recieved...yes I know it was hugely funded from the west.
I seem to recall from my days at school, that the english had an agricultural system that meant everybody inherited land from their fathers,and over time the land was split into smaller and smaller tracks of land wasting the use because of the divisions between and the distances between land owned by one man,even America's farm land was held by many people until it was clear that large farms were more practical to produce food economically.So Zimbabwe's move is a step in the wrong direction....Lets hope it can be resolved before too many people die.
Geoff
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Kush
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Posted: Saturday February 7th, 2004 16:43 |
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It’s worth noting that you use the example of Israel in your argument, which is another case of stolen land, and western imperialism. We Afrikans have been under attack for over 400 years, so what are 20? The same white farmers that you make reference to, have not been feeding Afrikans, but instead have been growing fat of the land (CASH CROPS), though it is true not all white framers are rich, but that is their way. It is for Afrikan people to resolve their own problems, on their own land – in their own way. To suggest that others know best, is nothing new, we’ve heard that before, but Europe’s solutions had never served anybody else, but Europeans.
Last edited on Saturday February 7th, 2004 16:45 by Kush
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untitled
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Posted: Saturday February 7th, 2004 19:51 |
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Kush wrote: It is for Afrikan people to resolve their own problems, on their own land – in their own way. To suggest that others know best, is nothing new, we’ve heard that before, but Europe’s solutions had never served anybody else, but Europeans.
Are you seriously suggesting that in this case Africans can and/or should "resolve" this issue? It has taken less than 20 years for these self-empowered African leaders of yours to ruin a nation. A nation that was looked upon as a success story... of how Africa could be. Granted that it was due to 100 years of white rule that this was the case, but the man didn't have to screw it up, did he? It will take more than 50 years to rectify this. And that's if they start NOW. Looking at the current political and economic climate, do you think they will start any constructive changes now? Please point out ANY African nation that has resolved their own problems in their own way. I can almost hear you say South Africa, but we all know that South Africa is regressing. That brief resurgence after apartheid is waning. If anything, you leave it to Africans "to resolve their own problems... in their own way", things will get worse. And historically, they have.
Now, I'm not saying that Europe's solutions are the only solutions, but the present regimes in Africa cannot continue to remain in power and run things the way they do. People are dying. These leaders are buying their support with all these promises of land and ridding the country of white people. But also consider the people who continue to be raped, assaulted, murdered because they wish to speak out against the the present government. Consider, as I mentioned in an earlier post, that while this leader lives in extravagance, with a wife who's shopping budget would make Victoria Beckham jealous, his charges eat tree leaves (which aren't really in abundance because of the drought-like conditions) and have to walk half a day for water. Consider this mockery of a trial that is currently underway in the nation. The leader of the opposition is on trial for treason... plotting to have Mugabe assassinated. If found guilty, he could be sentenced to death. All because there actually IS an opposition. And considering the methods employed against the ordinary populace by government brigands (who naturally are paid for this "work"), the police and in some cases, the national Army, do you THINK he'll be found not guilty!?? Consider that it is a commonly-held view that Mugabe's the new Hitler, or that he is almost as bad as Saddam? Considering this - and more that is happening, which I do not have details of as I am not there - is it realistic to state that Africans are the best people to resolve their problems.
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Fredblack
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Posted: Saturday February 7th, 2004 21:03 |
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 @All. The issue in Zimbabwe is very straight forward, but confused by the white media and white sponsored internal opposition. The issue of land transfer was at the heart of the Lancaster House Treaty in 1982 ,but in order for its smooth transition required subsequent British Governments to honoured the clear agreements they made.
Part of this agreement, required Britain to provide financial renumeration to the Mugabe government to pay back white Zimbabweans; who of course inflated the cost of the land which they got for next to nothing.
People who blame Mugabe, I suggest no little about what has taken place, and in effect is a distraction and part of the enemy strategy. What progressive African leader has not face this. For example, the great Nkrumah experienced every thing Mugabe is facing right now; with the help of people like Paul Boateng's father promoted the enemy's and their own cause by screaming corruption to the Western press, who were and are always amenable to those kind of stories.
The mistakes which Mugabe has made, or has been purported to have made are marginal, as what leaders do not excerice poor judgement even when not African leaders opearting in such contexts. The greatest people cannot see the future and make honourable but poor judgement on many occassions.
The rights of white Zimbabweans as MB cites are secondary and quite frankly irrelevent. My family has land on both sides back home in the Caribbean. Does MB believe because some white folks take over our island, and are foolish enough to take our land; and have their children on my property that wills save them from wholesale slaughter ,my boy is joking; and I suggest any African who owns land will not get side tracked from what the fundamentals of this issue is about. If you don't have land and attachment to it and that kind attachment and understanding that comes with it, may miss the essential point...
The only decision whites in that position have to make, is to leave our country and property or die there. The choice is theirs, because I cannot see my people under similar circumstances sitting there finding fault with the PM, when the PM or government did not give us our land; and we aquired it via hard work and sacrifice after slavery..
No dicussion really.....
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untitled
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Posted: Saturday February 7th, 2004 21:58 |
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I had a feeling someone was going to come along and say something like that...
Fred,
The situations you cited in your own motherland are somewhat different from those taking place in Zimbabwe. Granted, the British do have an obligation to pay some form of compensation to the Zimbabwean people - something I, surprisingly forgot to mention in earlier posts - but that does not mean that his actions are right, or just. You seem bent on supporting him BECAUSE he is a black man in power and because he's stuck two fingers to the British government. But that doesn't mean he's right. Trust me, he has - and I must emphasize this - f***Ked things up for his own people. I cannot respect a man like that, nor condone his activities. I believe you are in Birmingham; apologies if I'm wrong. I believe there is a substantial Zimbabwean population out there. If you have the time or inclination, speak to some and gather their opinions. I'll almost guarantee you will find a lot of people justifiably against his oppression. Can you really see a man who instigated ethnic cleansing of his own people (though technically not as they were a different "tribe") resulting in the deaths and disappearance of hundreds of thousands.
Melodramatic as this is - and I'll be the first to admit it is a bit melodramatic - it's almost as if you'd say "bravo" to Saddam for (as Mugabe has done) being an indigenous leader of his own people and telling the West where they can shove their policies. Before you react, allow me to justify my metaphor. Both leaders have risen from the ashes to "lead" (by saying lead, I obviously mean control) their people. Both have been entirely self-interested and have done their utmost to remain in power. Both have been involved in ethnic cleansing. Both have told the US and UK where to shove it (though Iraq bought weapons from the West where Zimbabwe bought them from the East - China and other socialist states). I think, apart from the obvious, the only difference that lies between the two is that Mugabe styled his look on Hitler and Saddam on Magnum PI.
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Fredblack
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Posted: Saturday February 7th, 2004 23:01 |
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Untitled thanks for your response. First, I argue what I know not what I don't. The fundamentals to the issue concerning the land issue in Zimbabwe is as I stated and that is a FACT, as I was party to the pre Lancaster House briefing given by Mugabe and others on the issue in 1981, and know what the points of contention were then, and how it structured everything else.
So if we are talking about the land issue, those are the fundamentals right there. So is the issue of how western governments demonise non compliant African leaders, while turning a blind eye, to others who are destroying their countries. So please do not attempt to put words into my mouth, to suggest simply because Mugabe is a black man, he will get my support, which is presumptious and offensive.
I know why I support Mugabe, and why I stay silent on other leaders, who I know little about. I also know a bit about the systems and strategies used to demonise African and Caribbean leaders; which is CLEARLY at play in this instance and if the whites and thier friends were not so quick to demonise black/African leaders, we would perhaps be in a better position to seperate reality from myth and propaganda. Where there is doubt as an intelligent black man, I defend my own in the absence of good informatiaon and evidence.
No I do not come from Birmingham, god forbid ,but let me stop you there Guest. In every scenario where there is a change of regime, or those fighting or seeking to undermine a regime, there will be exiles in foreign countries saying all kinds of things. Some true, partially true and some damn fictious. So simply being a Zimbabwean does not in my eyes provide anyone with legitmacy or authority in the things they claim, as being a Ghanian exile during the time of Nkrumah, or any important African leader or Caribbean leader eg Bishop.
The US had their apologists running around the whole Eastern Caribbean spreading propaganda saying how Bishop was communist[and what], anti god, anti a small man owning his own litle wooden shack and a whole heap of sh*t[but were strangely silent when Gairy was destroying the total infrastrucure of the island, filling his pockets and reducing the women in the island to whores having to sleep with anybody for work in menial positions and I can go on].
More questions have to be asked before we grant these anti Mugabe voices with legitmacy. Same as Nigeria. If god willing there is a radical change in the status quo, and the majority remove this cancerous predator on the civic and political and social system. Bet you any money, many of them will be in England, and the US, saying similar things.
So not dissing you bro, just been around a while to have seen these things before; and was also invovled once in supporting the wrong side during the civil war in Angola. So experience teacheth wisdom.
I respect Robert Mugabe as a leader and radical. If evidence is found that genuinely descredits him, then he must face his fate. These are the principles I live and fall by. But by the same token, we do not take the enemies propaganda, or those from within the country, whose motives and authtenticity we are unable to confirm and side with our enemies against one of our own. Never, ever.
Back in the day, Sekou Toure in Guinea was a hero of the African radical movment worldwide. But as he aged and spent too long in power, he begun to attack and undermine the same democratic and radical principles which he stood at the forefront.
Once this information begun to spread in radical and internationalist African/Black circles, from authentic and legitmate sources, the Pan African world, took a step back and begun to view Toure in a different way and withdrew our support for him. Simple things bro. I would not condemn you on the word of the "Evening Standard", or "Daily Mail", or any white media; or because some one who happens to be black starts to run their mouth.
These are fundamental first principles where I come from. Treat others how you would with them to treat you; especially where the hand of the wazungu can clearly be seen.
We had a sister on the old black Forum,[ Shing] who was Zimbabwean, went there often; and whose perception of events were not as you are suggesting and more in line with what I heard from people I trust and have earned it.
Now if you are telling me, Mugabe has carried out ethnic cleansing then brother you will have to provide me evidence of that; because as somebody who follows developments in that part of the world carefully, that is the first time I have heard of what you are claiming. Not saying it is not true, but I would want to ask many many questions first.
For example are these ZAPU people who are making these claims. ZAPU did little for the liberation stuggle and undermined the armed struggle and helped Britain and the whites there and world wide impose a set of conditions on the African majority,which constrained and cripppled Mugabe et al from day one.
So more information please and from good sources.
And by the way bro. To compare Mugabe with Saddamm Hussaine is frankly silly and descredits any serious discussion you want to come with and raises questions about your motive. That is not even a reasonable comparison, to a fool. So who is prejudiced or has an uncritcal commitment......? In fact that comment, sounds like it came straight from the Daily Mail and anyone with serious understanding of this issue will know about the Daily Mails finacial and other interests in Zimbabwe and why it wants Mugabe removed by any means.
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obal85
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Posted: Sunday February 8th, 2004 04:00 |
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TO MR-BANKS,
U wrote: First of all, I think that whites BORN in Zimbabwe technically DO have the right to own land simply because they WERE born there.
They do not deserve to hold onto land in Zimbabwe cos their forefathers invaded and occupied that country......stealing lands belonging to african indigenous people
Look, regardless of the crimes that there parents commited the people BORN in that land really do have just as much right to the land as any one else.
I'm only being fair and righteous in my observation.
If you say they should be put out the land because they're white...who's to say that us blacks and whites in Europe and America shouldn't be put out also and sent back to Africa?
U sound so dumb at ur age....who said anything about putting them out cos they are white. Secondly, black people in Europe work hard to get what they possess .......they did not steal their houses......their businesses unlike the whites in Zimbabwe. If the whites wanted land so bad.....they should work hard for it just like blacks in europe work like donkeys. thats fair enough.....may be not to ya cos u sound like an uncle tom.
Most black people feel the way I do deep down (I said MOST...not all) but the only problem is that we know that the whites have historically passed these vast amounts of land down generation after generation but got the land unfairly.
So we wanna take it all back.
The land should be taken back from these white barbarians.
I think that when Zimbabwe got her independance the land should have either ALL went to the government under socialism or it should have been divided evenly among all the adults.
Then the government should have launched massive educational projects to teach blacks the skills and sciences of agriculture and ecology so that we would be just as qualified as whites in maintaining the land and producing food and cotton and other goods.
Instead, too many of us became lazy and shiftless under the yolk of colonization like we did in slavery.
Speak for urself only......if u r lazy....so be it.....many of us are lazy?......thats bollocks to my ear.....blacks in the diaspora work diligently to get where they are.....while whites in south africa......zimbabwe stole land and distribute them to their descendants and u expect us not to react to it.....u r just another uncle tom...real black people are fed up with people like ya.
Instead of LEARNING how to work, too many wanna snatch the land way from the whites...then sit on it grinning and smoking funny herbs doing nothing.
Some sit on a bucket in the middle of a field wiggling their toes in the soil expecting sh*t to start growing on it's own.
u r chatting bollocks still
Or wait for the West to drop packages of oatmeal from the sky when we're living in a tropical paradise that can grow damn near anything.
just cos u as a person is waiting for handout does not mean other blacks are waiting for handouts.
There's NO REASON what so f*cking ever that deserts should be growning in Central and Southern Africa!
The problem is the attitude of the people.
Now that colonism is "officially" over...no one wants to be a worker that produces and cultivates, everyone wants to be a leader or soldier who takes by force.
u r not making sense.
How many Zimbabs are trying to be farmers and plantation workers now?
How many do u know moron.....get ur facts right b4 u stereotype....uncle tom.
Mugabe should reconstruct the educational system and make farming and agricultural work honorable and respectable again instead of giving all these men guns to play with.
Mugabe may be a tyrant.....unlike u, he is no uncle tom....
Yeah yeah I know......
It sounded cool to me too!
In the beginning when Mugabe was taking the land back and redistributing it...
Him and his military gets together and run the devils out the land and return it to it's former glory....it all sounds wonderful.
But after while reality sets in.
My worse nightmares were confirmed.
I was hoping that these negros wouldn't force whites off the land and out of the government only to end up f*cking everything up and having to come back to another white man on their knees.
Whites DID steal land in Africa and the Americas but they got their asses out in the field and WORKED to cultivate the soil. They didn't just kill off the natives and use up the land until they had nothing left......then starved to death.
black slaves worked the land in north america ok......could u tell me what u do for a living? u sound so naive....u suffer from inferiority complex
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Fredblack
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Posted: Sunday February 8th, 2004 04:30 |
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 MB I did not see this until I read Oba85's post,when you said:"Look, regardless of the crimes that there parents commited the people BORN in that land really do have just as much right to the land as any one else.
I'm only being fair and righteous in my observation.
If you say they should be put out the land because they're white...who's to say that us blacks and whites in Europe and America shouldn't be put out also and sent back to Africa?"
I see you are a promoter of "squatters rights" and the charter of thieves and murderers..
ARE YOU CRAZY......? Fortuantely Obal85 has dealt with the issue. My parents and people built this country, as I do; in a way which is disrportionate to our rewards. How you can compare us with these murders and thieves is beyone me..
No, white Zimbabweans should be allowed to have rights. I agree, but behind the Zebras and Girraffes who are Africans; and in my view have more rights than them, and will always have .....I a black man is going to fight for a country, my country; where a white man has, or can have the same rights as me in my soil,[ and place of origin] and our land. That is mighty Christian of you, but if they want those rights stay in their country, or place of origin. We cannot give them what they deny us in their place of origin.
What black people idiots and inferior for real......? 
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Geoff
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Posted: Sunday February 8th, 2004 06:55 |
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Fredblack wrote: MB I did not see this until I read Oba85's post,when you said:"Look, regardless of the crimes that there parents commited the people BORN in that land really do have just as much right to the land as any one else.
I'm only being fair and righteous in my observation.
If you say they should be put out the land because they're white...who's to say that us blacks and whites in Europe and America shouldn't be put out also and sent back to Africa?"
I see you are a promoter of "squatters rights" and the charter of thieves and murderers..
When any foriegner of any colour buys land in any European country legally he has the rights over that land.The fact that he doesn't originate from where the land is bought does not go against him....unless you know differently?
ARE YOU CRAZY......? Fortuantely Obal85 has dealt with the issue. My parents and people built this country, as I do; in a way which is disrportionate to our rewards. How you can compare us with these murders and thieves is beyone me..
Most of the landowners have deeds of ownership issued by the present government since independence,they paid the market rate at the time,the value of that land has increased since.They maybe descended from thieves and murderers...should they suffer for the sins of their forefathers?
No, white Zimbabweans should be allowed to have rights. I agree, but behind the Zebras and Girraffes who are Africans; and in my view have more rights than them, and will always have .....I a black man is going to fight for a country, my country; where a white man has, or can have the same rights as me in my soil,[ and place of origin] and our land. That is mighty Christian of you, but if they want those rights stay in their country, or place of origin. We cannot give them what they deny us in their place of origin.
What rights are denied to any citizen in the UK? Not as many as are denied Zimbabweans in Zimbabwe when casting their vote.
What black people idiots and inferior for real......?
FredBlack....are there any circumstances that a white person can own land in Africa?
How do you define place of origin?
Geoff
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obal85
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Posted: Sunday February 8th, 2004 08:14 |
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TO GEOFF (the white_supremacist),
U wrote: The situation in Zim is a tragedy,the people for the most part are hardworking and educated.The education was driven by Mugabe,one of his better ideas.
There cannot be any doubt that whites came by the land by theft and deception originally and had no rights to own it...but as Zimbabwe has been Independent for 20 odd years it would have been better to have sorted the problem out back then,just after independence and not leave it until comparatively recently when it became an opportunists way of hanging on to populist power.
The farmers have the legal deeds for the lands they farm given to them by the present government after independance..There are obviously some racial overtones with a wealthy elite farming community being predominately white,but over the previous 20 years surely a program picking off farms up for resale to be managed by africans working alongside the acquired knowledge of white farmers would have kept a continuity of food supply for the country.
Irrigation schemes along side the established farms,enlarging the farming area available and then establishing african owned farms.Isreal has created productive land from nothing...with a lot of money pumped in...Zimbabwe could do the same..over time.I dont want to start a Zionist debate here about the amount of aid Isreal recieved...yes I know it was hugely funded from the west.
I seem to recall from my days at school, that the english had an agricultural system that meant everybody inherited land from their fathers,and over time the land was split into smaller and smaller tracks of land wasting the use because of the divisions between and the distances between land owned by one man,even America's farm land was held by many people until it was clear that large farms were more practical to produce food economically.So Zimbabwe's move is a step in the wrong direction....Lets hope it can be resolved before too many people die.
I knew u would be here to continue to spread ur racist propaganda about land in Zimbabwe. U admitted it urself ur forefathers (rhodes) stole the land from its rightful owner (zimbabweans) and it does not matter when the rightful owner take it back from u descendants of white barbarians....as long as they take it off u eventually....thats what matters. Like i said b4...blacks in europe work hard to buy houses, cars, own businesses lawfully etc etc.....they never stole land from ur kind in europe.....so that settles it. The farms were not given to ur kind by the current Government after independence.....u stole it damnit......stop lying through ur teeth.
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Posted: Sunday February 8th, 2004 09:27 |
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It seems the situation is very complex,and to try to see both sides and recognising we are all biased to some degree I have sought to find both sides to this problem.
The biggest job of any government is to look after the wellbeing of its nationals,ie food,health,wealth etc. Communism has failed in most instances to bring well being to its people, alternatively capitalism with all its faults has given us some of the richest nations on earth.Working for an extremely rich company ensures future security normaly.....to have a big commercial sector (who look after their own interests) is better for the financial health of a nation than having small scale independents who are only after self suffiency.To employ someone is to create income,spreading wealth,the larger the operation the more efficient it has to be.Farms are only agricultural businesses,to be effective they have to be well planned,coordinated,well financed.To merely change the owners of a farm means a lose of produce....how can any body know the quirks and problems on a particular piece of land...but to split up that land and expect to maintain a good harvest doesnt seem reasonable.The problems in Zimbabwe stem from many quarters...the bad feelings between whites and blacks only being part of it.
I produce some links and give quotes from them for closer attention....http://www.icl-fi.org/ENGLISH/2003/zimbabwe.html
Yet for almost two decades Mugabe was regarded and occasionally praised by London and Washington as a “moderate� African leader because he perpetuated the economic dominance in both agriculture and industry of the former white colonialists. Western bourgeois politicians and the media scarcely noticed, much less protested, when in the mid 1980s the Mugabe regime waged a war of extermination against the forces of a rival nationalist movement based on the minority Ndebele people. The Zimbabwean army massacred at the time an estimated 10,000 to 20,000 villagers in Matabeleland, homeland of the Ndebele. As long as Mugabe’s regime did not touch, indeed enhanced, the wealth of the white propertied classes, the men who run the City of London and Wall Street couldn’t care less what he did to Zimbabwe’s workers and peasants.
So Mugabe isnt without blemish...
A Dutch journalist of evident left-wing sympathies, Bram Posthumus, neatly cut through the cant and hypocrisy on both sides:“Most ‘Rhodies’ are unreformed racists and I would not want to be in the company of any of them.“On the other hand, the Zanu-PF [ruling Zimbabwe African National Union—Popular Front] top brass was cashing in on white largesse when it suited them. They did not question the economic models that they now claim were foisted upon them by the IMF and World Bank. Why should they? Capitalism has suited them fine ever since they came into power....The point here is, very basically, that neither of these two groups, white farmers and Zanu-PF chiefs, deserve a shred of sympathy, let alone support.�
—New African, February 2002
And the ZANU pf were happy to hold on to the comforts afforded them by the system.
While maintaining the wealth of the white propertied classes, the Mugabe regime also built up a privileged black elite via the state treasury. A large government bureaucracy was formed under ZANU-PF’s patronage. Outright corruption was systemic and massive while the government set up and financed numerous black-owned businesses. The Mugabe regime therefore consistently ran large government budget deficits even in fairly prosperous years. These deficits were initially financed by borrowing heavily from City of London and Wall Street banks at commercial rates of interest. Consequently, the burden of foreign debt doubled from a third of Zimbabwe’s gross domestic product (GDP) in 1986 to two-thirds of its GDP by 1994.
Plus mismanagement?
To begin with, the redivision of the land has been far from equitable. Of the first 600 white farms taken over three years ago, 200 of the largest were given gratis to officials of the ZANU-PF and to Mugabe’s cronies and relatives, including his wife. Inspecting her new 2,500-acre estate, Grace Mugabe announced to the assembled agricultural laborers: “I am taking over this farm� (Guardian Weekly [London], 21-27 November 2002). Only such members of the post-colonial black ruling elite have the money to operate the commercial farms at a profit. The mass of black peasants who now occupy much of this land in most cases don’t even have seeds to plant next year’s crop to feed their families.
And greed and nepotism?
Within a few years agriculture, traditionally the most conservative of occupations, nearly devoid of progress for almost an entire millennium and utterly devoid for several centuries, suddenly became one of the most revolutionary branches of modern industry, if not the most revolutionary. This transformation meant that agriculture progressed from being a handicraft, whose routines were passed down through the generations, to being a science, or rather a complex of sciences, undergoing a rapid expansion in both its empirical and theoretical knowledge. Any farmer not fully at home with such sciences, the mere ‘practician,’ will be helpless and baffled in the face of current innovations, yet cannot continue in the old ways.� [emphasis in original]........Kautsky pointed out that the economic size of a modern capitalist farm is to be measured not in acreage per se but rather in capital per acre, which is directly related to crop yield per acre:.....“The law according to which the more intensive the cultivation of the farm, the smaller its area must be for a given volume of capital also works in the same direction. An intensively farmed small estate represents a larger enterprise than a large, extensively cultivated one.�
So it is not easy to feed a nation...just because you have land?
While 350,000 agricultural laborers and their families worked on the white-owned commercial farms, their number was dwarfed by the six to seven million peasants engaged mainly in subsistence farming in the “communal� lands. As we have seen, the Mugabe regime was able to exploit and manipulate the land hunger of these dispossessed peasants against the MDC opposition (and also against the agricultural laborers).
Was the land issue a political tool | | | |
