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obal85
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Posted: Saturday January 24th, 2004 05:49 |
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Do descendants of white colonialist in Zimbabwe deserve to own land in Zimbabwe?.....Despite the fact that their forefathers especially Rhodes went there to steal lands belonging to african indigenious people.
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untitled
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Posted: Saturday January 24th, 2004 20:58 |
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No, they don't but I'd rather see them in control of that land. Reason being that they put that land to much better use than it being put to now. Part of the reason that Zimbabwe was one of Africa's success stories was due to it's agricultural prowess. Now, that idiot of a president has given away the one thing that makes Zimbabwe a force to be reckoned with because of his own hate for white people. They aren't going to use it to better the nation. They aren't even going to use it to better themselves... most of the people that Bob has given the land to are so poor that buying seed and fertilisers is beyond their ability so the land will lie farrow. So who wins in the end? The country is a complete wreck. People resort to eating tree bark and leaves because of a severe shortage of food.
If anything, I would rather have seen that land be divided between the farmers and the Zimbabwean people. Because the farmers were Zimbabwean by virtue of birth and because they farmed in effect for the nation (though making a tidy profit as well; but hey, that's just a part of life...) I would have liked to have seen them keep at least SOME of the land to continue doing so and with the remainder of the land given back to the people, work with them to help them better themselves and in time, the nation. Looking at the present situation, true you have the land given to its rightful owners, but what now?
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MrBanks
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Posted: Wednesday February 4th, 2004 04:22 |
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Untitled:
I agree with you.
Olba:
First of all, I think that whites BORN in Zimbabwe technically DO have the right to own land simply because they WERE born there.
But they shouldn't have an inordinate amount of land or DOMINATE the agricultural economy like they were doing in South Africa and like they're starting to do in Mozambique, either.
Look, regardless of the crimes that there parents commited the people BORN in that land really do have just as much right to the land as any one else.
I'm only being fair and righteous in my observation.
If you say they should be put out the land because they're white...who's to say that us blacks and whites in Europe and America shouldn't be put out also and sent back to Africa?
Most black people feel the way I do deep down (I said MOST...not all) but the only problem is that we know that the whites have historically passed these vast amounts of land down generation after generation but got the land unfairly.
So we wanna take it all back.
I think that when Zimbabwe got her independance the land should have either ALL went to the government under socialism or it should have been divided evenly among all the adults.
Then the government should have launched massive educational projects to teach blacks the skills and sciences of agriculture and ecology so that we would be just as qualified as whites in maintaining the land and producing food and cotton and other goods.
Instead, too many of us became lazy and shiftless under the yolk of colonization like we did in slavery.
Instead of LEARNING how to work, too many wanna snatch the land way from the whites...then sit on it grinning and smoking funny herbs doing nothing.
Some sit on a bucket in the middle of a field wiggling their toes in the soil expecting sh*t to start growing on it's own.
Or wait for the West to drop packages of oatmeal from the sky when we're living in a tropical paradise that can grow damn near anything.
There's NO REASON what so f*cking ever that deserts should be growning in Central and Southern Africa!
The problem is the attitude of the people.
Now that colonism is "officially" over...no one wants to be a worker that produces and cultivates, everyone wants to be a leader or soldier who takes by force.
How many Zimbabs are trying to be farmers and plantation workers now?
Mugabe should reconstruct the educational system and make farming and agricultural work honorable and respectable again instead of giving all these men guns to play with.
Yeah yeah I know......
It sounded cool to me too!  
In the beginning when Mugabe was taking the land back and redistributing it...
Him and his military gets together and run the devils out the land and return it to it's former glory....it all sounds wonderful.
But after while reality sets in.
My worse nightmares were confirmed.
I was hoping that these negros wouldn't force whites off the land and out of the government only to end up f*cking everything up and having to come back to another white man on their knees.
Whites DID steal land in Africa and the Americas but they got their asses out in the field and WORKED to cultivate the soil. They didn't just kill off the natives and use up the land until they had nothing left......then starved to death.
They WORKED!!!
We're gonna have to do the same.
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Hesaid
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Posted: Wednesday February 4th, 2004 08:19 |
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Im free
Im free
Im free
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MrBanks
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Posted: Wednesday February 4th, 2004 09:38 |
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Hesaid: 
What was that?
An impression of Janet Jackson's right titty?  
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untitled
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Posted: Wednesday February 4th, 2004 18:20 |
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MrBanks,
Those were some brilliant points you raised! Especially regarding how peeps are just going to sit and wait for more handouts from either their own rotting, corruption-infested government or the West. Which is kinda funny, considering that one of the fundamental "lessons" you can pick up anywhere in Africa is that if you want something, you better damn well work for it. With no benefits system, if you have nothing, you literally have nothing...
Being given this land is a gift unlike any other. But I think it was very badly thought out. It's like a Bush election campaign. "I need the people to think I'm the best thing that ever happened to them... the people in the cities KNOW I'm a senile, corrupt philandering b**tard, but the people in the rural areas haven't a clue. I know, I'll give them something to keep them dumb like that. Hmmm... what do they REALLY want??" Okay, that's a somewhat cynical approach, but he actually did give people the land to keep them believing in him, that much is true.
Hesaid,
How long have you been waiting to let that one out? No pun intended.
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YOLANDA
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Posted: Wednesday February 4th, 2004 19:49 |
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Descandants of white settlers in Southern (for this is an issue across Southern although more predominantly Zimbabwe and South Africa) have put over the last century put in a lot of work to make the land work for them. They have studied the land experimented and found the right balance to make the land productive and to keep system sustainable. As things stand some of this expertise is being lost. Small scale African farmers and most of those settled in rural areas fall into this catergory are good at what they do. Year on year they farm and should the rains be sufficient they harvest enough to feed their their families and sell the surplus.
Taking large scale commercial farms that have been developed over 100years and handing to people who have no experience in their workings is setting those recipients for a fall and worse setting the country up for famine.
was land redistribution necessary - hell yeah. If you ever travelled Zimbabwe the descrepancy was all too abvious. Dry areas with poor soils for the blacks. Lush verdant productive land for the whites. Grounds for for redistribution yes. But a fair redistribution. Fair for all the blacks and the whites. The land continues to produce. The country is fed and trade in the surplus continues. It s so simple yet it has been complicated by Mugabe and his cronies and confusion and mayhem sown across the board.
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Kush
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Posted: Friday February 6th, 2004 08:50 |
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obal85 wrote:
.....Despite the fact that their forefathers especially Rhodes went there to steal lands belonging to african indigenious people.
Despite the fact... what are you, some kind of Uncle Tom N****r? Afrika belongs to Afrikans, irrespective of what we do with our land, if you and yours wish to live under white-world domination so be it, but some of us have other plans!
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Geoff
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Posted: Saturday February 7th, 2004 10:32 |
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The situation in Zim is a tragedy,the people for the most part are hardworking and educated.The education was driven by Mugabe,one of his better ideas.
There cannot be any doubt that whites came by the land by theft and deception originally and had no rights to own it...but as Zimbabwe has been Independent for 20 odd years it would have been better to have sorted the problem out back then,just after independence and not leave it until comparatively recently when it became an opportunists way of hanging on to populist power.
The farmers have the legal deeds for the lands they farm given to them by the present government after independance..There are obviously some racial overtones with a wealthy elite farming community being predominately white,but over the previous 20 years surely a program picking off farms up for resale to be managed by africans working alongside the acquired knowledge of white farmers would have kept a continuity of food supply for the country.
Irrigation schemes along side the established farms,enlarging the farming area available and then establishing african owned farms.Isreal has created productive land from nothing...with a lot of money pumped in...Zimbabwe could do the same..over time.I dont want to start a Zionist debate here about the amount of aid Isreal recieved...yes I know it was hugely funded from the west.
I seem to recall from my days at school, that the english had an agricultural system that meant everybody inherited land from their fathers,and over time the land was split into smaller and smaller tracks of land wasting the use because of the divisions between and the distances between land owned by one man,even America's farm land was held by many people until it was clear that large farms were more practical to produce food economically.So Zimbabwe's move is a step in the wrong direction....Lets hope it can be resolved before too many people die.
Geoff
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Kush
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Posted: Saturday February 7th, 2004 17:43 |
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It’s worth noting that you use the example of Israel in your argument, which is another case of stolen land, and western imperialism. We Afrikans have been under attack for over 400 years, so what are 20? The same white farmers that you make reference to, have not been feeding Afrikans, but instead have been growing fat of the land (CASH CROPS), though it is true not all white framers are rich, but that is their way. It is for Afrikan people to resolve their own problems, on their own land – in their own way. To suggest that others know best, is nothing new, we’ve heard that before, but Europe’s solutions had never served anybody else, but Europeans.
Last edited on Saturday February 7th, 2004 17:45 by Kush
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untitled
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Posted: Saturday February 7th, 2004 20:51 |
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Kush wrote: It is for Afrikan people to resolve their own problems, on their own land – in their own way. To suggest that others know best, is nothing new, we’ve heard that before, but Europe’s solutions had never served anybody else, but Europeans.
Are you seriously suggesting that in this case Africans can and/or should "resolve" this issue? It has taken less than 20 years for these self-empowered African leaders of yours to ruin a nation. A nation that was looked upon as a success story... of how Africa could be. Granted that it was due to 100 years of white rule that this was the case, but the man didn't have to screw it up, did he? It will take more than 50 years to rectify this. And that's if they start NOW. Looking at the current political and economic climate, do you think they will start any constructive changes now? Please point out ANY African nation that has resolved their own problems in their own way. I can almost hear you say South Africa, but we all know that South Africa is regressing. That brief resurgence after apartheid is waning. If anything, you leave it to Africans "to resolve their own problems... in their own way", things will get worse. And historically, they have.
Now, I'm not saying that Europe's solutions are the only solutions, but the present regimes in Africa cannot continue to remain in power and run things the way they do. People are dying. These leaders are buying their support with all these promises of land and ridding the country of white people. But also consider the people who continue to be raped, assaulted, murdered because they wish to speak out against the the present government. Consider, as I mentioned in an earlier post, that while this leader lives in extravagance, with a wife who's shopping budget would make Victoria Beckham jealous, his charges eat tree leaves (which aren't really in abundance because of the drought-like conditions) and have to walk half a day for water. Consider this mockery of a trial that is currently underway in the nation. The leader of the opposition is on trial for treason... plotting to have Mugabe assassinated. If found guilty, he could be sentenced to death. All because there actually IS an opposition. And considering the methods employed against the ordinary populace by government brigands (who naturally are paid for this "work"), the police and in some cases, the national Army, do you THINK he'll be found not guilty!?? Consider that it is a commonly-held view that Mugabe's the new Hitler, or that he is almost as bad as Saddam? Considering this - and more that is happening, which I do not have details of as I am not there - is it realistic to state that Africans are the best people to resolve their problems.
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Fredblack
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Posted: Saturday February 7th, 2004 22:03 |
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 @All. The issue in Zimbabwe is very straight forward, but confused by the white media and white sponsored internal opposition. The issue of land transfer was at the heart of the Lancaster House Treaty in 1982 ,but in order for its smooth transition required subsequent British Governments to honoured the clear agreements they made.
Part of this agreement, required Britain to provide financial renumeration to the Mugabe government to pay back white Zimbabweans; who of course inflated the cost of the land which they got for next to nothing.
People who blame Mugabe, I suggest no little about what has taken place, and in effect is a distraction and part of the enemy strategy. What progressive African leader has not face this. For example, the great Nkrumah experienced every thing Mugabe is facing right now; with the help of people like Paul Boateng's father promoted the enemy's and their own cause by screaming corruption to the Western press, who were and are always amenable to those kind of stories.
The mistakes which Mugabe has made, or has been purported to have made are marginal, as what leaders do not excerice poor judgement even when not African leaders opearting in such contexts. The greatest people cannot see the future and make honourable but poor judgement on many occassions.
The rights of white Zimbabweans as MB cites are secondary and quite frankly irrelevent. My family has land on both sides back home in the Caribbean. Does MB believe because some white folks take over our island, and are foolish enough to take our land; and have their children on my property that wills save them from wholesale slaughter ,my boy is joking; and I suggest any African who owns land will not get side tracked from what the fundamentals of this issue is about. If you don't have land and attachment to it and that kind attachment and understanding that comes with it, may miss the essential point...
The only decision whites in that position have to make, is to leave our country and property or die there. The choice is theirs, because I cannot see my people under similar circumstances sitting there finding fault with the PM, when the PM or government did not give us our land; and we aquired it via hard work and sacrifice after slavery..
No dicussion really.....
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untitled
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Posted: Saturday February 7th, 2004 22:58 |
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I had a feeling someone was going to come along and say something like that...
Fred,
The situations you cited in your own motherland are somewhat different from those taking place in Zimbabwe. Granted, the British do have an obligation to pay some form of compensation to the Zimbabwean people - something I, surprisingly forgot to mention in earlier posts - but that does not mean that his actions are right, or just. You seem bent on supporting him BECAUSE he is a black man in power and because he's stuck two fingers to the British government. But that doesn't mean he's right. Trust me, he has - and I must emphasize this - f***Ked things up for his own people. I cannot respect a man like that, nor condone his activities. I believe you are in Birmingham; apologies if I'm wrong. I believe there is a substantial Zimbabwean population out there. If you have the time or inclination, speak to some and gather their opinions. I'll almost guarantee you will find a lot of people justifiably against his oppression. Can you really see a man who instigated ethnic cleansing of his own people (though technically not as they were a different "tribe") resulting in the deaths and disappearance of hundreds of thousands.
Melodramatic as this is - and I'll be the first to admit it is a bit melodramatic - it's almost as if you'd say "bravo" to Saddam for (as Mugabe has done) being an indigenous leader of his own people and telling the West where they can shove their policies. Before you react, allow me to justify my metaphor. Both leaders have risen from the ashes to "lead" (by saying lead, I obviously mean control) their people. Both have been entirely self-interested and have done their utmost to remain in power. Both have been involved in ethnic cleansing. Both have told the US and UK where to shove it (though Iraq bought weapons from the West where Zimbabwe bought them from the East - China and other socialist states). I think, apart from the obvious, the only difference that lies between the two is that Mugabe styled his look on Hitler and Saddam on Magnum PI.
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Fredblack
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Posted: Sunday February 8th, 2004 00:01 |
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Untitled thanks for your response. First, I argue what I know not what I don't. The fundamentals to the issue concerning the land issue in Zimbabwe is as I stated and that is a FACT, as I was party to the pre Lancaster House briefing given by Mugabe and others on the issue in 1981, and know what the points of contention were then, and how it structured everything else.
So if we are talking about the land issue, those are the fundamentals right there. So is the issue of how western governments demonise non compliant African leaders, while turning a blind eye, to others who are destroying their countries. So please do not attempt to put words into my mouth, to suggest simply because Mugabe is a black man, he will get my support, which is presumptious and offensive.
I know why I support Mugabe, and why I stay silent on other leaders, who I know little about. I also know a bit about the systems and strategies used to demonise African and Caribbean leaders; which is CLEARLY at play in this instance and if the whites and thier friends were not so quick to demonise black/African leaders, we would perhaps be in a better position to seperate reality from myth and propaganda. Where there is doubt as an intelligent black man, I defend my own in the absence of good informatiaon and evidence.
No I do not come from Birmingham, god forbid ,but let me stop you there Guest. In every scenario where there is a change of regime, or those fighting or seeking to undermine a regime, there will be exiles in foreign countries saying all kinds of things. Some true, partially true and some damn fictious. So simply being a Zimbabwean does not in my eyes provide anyone with legitmacy or authority in the things they claim, as being a Ghanian exile during the time of Nkrumah, or any important African leader or Caribbean leader eg Bishop.
The US had their apologists running around the whole Eastern Caribbean spreading propaganda saying how Bishop was communist[and what], anti god, anti a small man owning his own litle wooden shack and a whole heap of sh*t[but were strangely silent when Gairy was destroying the total infrastrucure of the island, filling his pockets and reducing the women in the island to whores having to sleep with anybody for work in menial positions and I can go on].
More questions have to be asked before we grant these anti Mugabe voices with legitmacy. Same as Nigeria. If god willing there is a radical change in the status quo, and the majority remove this cancerous predator on the civic and political and social system. Bet you any money, many of them will be in England, and the US, saying similar things.
So not dissing you bro, just been around a while to have seen these things before; and was also invovled once in supporting the wrong side during the civil war in Angola. So experience teacheth wisdom.
I respect Robert Mugabe as a leader and radical. If evidence is found that genuinely descredits him, then he must face his fate. These are the principles I live and fall by. But by the same token, we do not take the enemies propaganda, or those from within the country, whose motives and authtenticity we are unable to confirm and side with our enemies against one of our own. Never, ever.
Back in the day, Sekou Toure in Guinea was a hero of the African radical movment worldwide. But as he aged and spent too long in power, he begun to attack and undermine the same democratic and radical principles which he stood at the forefront.
Once this information begun to spread in radical and internationalist African/Black circles, from authentic and legitmate sources, the Pan African world, took a step back and begun to view Toure in a different way and withdrew our support for him. Simple things bro. I would not condemn you on the word of the "Evening Standard", or "Daily Mail", or any white media; or because some one who happens to be black starts to run their mouth.
These are fundamental first principles where I come from. Treat others how you would with them to treat you; especially where the hand of the wazungu can clearly be seen.
We had a sister on the old black Forum,[ Shing] who was Zimbabwean, went there often; and whose perception of events were not as you are suggesting and more in line with what I heard from people I trust and have earned it.
Now if you are telling me, Mugabe has carried out ethnic cleansing then brother you will have to provide me evidence of that; because as somebody who follows developments in that part of the world carefully, that is the first time I have heard of what you are claiming. Not saying it is not true, but I would want to ask many many questions first.
For example are these ZAPU people who are making these claims. ZAPU did little for the liberation stuggle and undermined the armed struggle and helped Britain and the whites there and world wide impose a set of conditions on the African majority,which constrained and cripppled Mugabe et al from day one.
So more information please and from good sources.
And by the way bro. To compare Mugabe with Saddamm Hussaine is frankly silly and descredits any serious discussion you want to come with and raises questions about your motive. That is not even a reasonable comparison, to a fool. So who is prejudiced or has an uncritcal commitment......? In fact that comment, sounds like it came straight from the Daily Mail and anyone with serious understanding of this issue will know about the Daily Mails finacial and other interests in Zimbabwe and why it wants Mugabe removed by any means.
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obal85
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Posted: Sunday February 8th, 2004 05:00 |
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TO MR-BANKS,
U wrote: First of all, I think that whites BORN in Zimbabwe technically DO have the right to own land simply because they WERE born there.
They do not deserve to hold onto land in Zimbabwe cos their forefathers invaded and occupied that country......stealing lands belonging to african indigenous people
Look, regardless of the crimes that there parents commited the people BORN in that land really do have just as much right to the land as any one else.
I'm only being fair and righteous in my observation.
If you say they should be put out the land because they're white...who's to say that us blacks and whites in Europe and America shouldn't be put out also and sent back to Africa?
U sound so dumb at ur age....who said anything about putting them out cos they are white. Secondly, black people in Europe work hard to get what they possess .......they did not steal their houses......their businesses unlike the whites in Zimbabwe. If the whites wanted land so bad.....they should work hard for it just like blacks in europe work like donkeys. thats fair enough.....may be not to ya cos u sound like an uncle tom.
Most black people feel the way I do deep down (I said MOST...not all) but the only problem is that we know that the whites have historically passed these vast amounts of land down generation after generation but got the land unfairly.
So we wanna take it all back.
The land should be taken back from these white barbarians.
I think that when Zimbabwe got her independance the land should have either ALL went to the government under socialism or it should have been divided evenly among all the adults.
Then the government should have launched massive educational projects to teach blacks the skills and sciences of agriculture and ecology so that we would be just as qualified as whites in maintaining the land and producing food and cotton and other goods.
Instead, too many of us became lazy and shiftless under the yolk of colonization like we did in slavery.
Speak for urself only......if u r lazy....so be it.....many of us are lazy?......thats bollocks to my ear.....blacks in the diaspora work diligently to get where they are.....while whites in south africa......zimbabwe stole land and distribute them to their descendants and u expect us not to react to it.....u r just another uncle tom...real black people are fed up with people like ya.
Instead of LEARNING how to work, too many wanna snatch the land way from the whites...then sit on it grinning and smoking funny herbs doing nothing.
Some sit on a bucket in the middle of a field wiggling their toes in the soil expecting sh*t to start growing on it's own.
u r chatting bollocks still
Or wait for the West to drop packages of oatmeal from the sky when we're living in a tropical paradise that can grow damn near anything.
just cos u as a person is waiting for handout does not mean other blacks are waiting for handouts.
There's NO REASON what so f*cking ever that deserts should be growning in Central and Southern Africa!
The problem is the attitude of the people.
Now that colonism is "officially" over...no one wants to be a worker that produces and cultivates, everyone wants to be a leader or soldier who takes by force.
u r not making sense.
How many Zimbabs are trying to be farmers and plantation workers now?
How many do u know moron.....get ur facts right b4 u stereotype....uncle tom.
Mugabe should reconstruct the educational system and make farming and agricultural work honorable and respectable again instead of giving all these men guns to play with.
Mugabe may be a tyrant.....unlike u, he is no uncle tom....
Yeah yeah I know......
It sounded cool to me too!
In the beginning when Mugabe was taking the land back and redistributing it...
Him and his military gets together and run the devils out the land and return it to it's former glory....it all sounds wonderful.
But after while reality sets in.
My worse nightmares were confirmed.
I was hoping that these negros wouldn't force whites off the land and out of the government only to end up f*cking everything up and having to come back to another white man on their knees.
Whites DID steal land in Africa and the Americas but they got their asses out in the field and WORKED to cultivate the soil. They didn't just kill off the natives and use up the land until they had nothing left......then starved to death.
black slaves worked the land in north america ok......could u tell me what u do for a living? u sound so naive....u suffer from inferiority complex
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Fredblack
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Posted: Sunday February 8th, 2004 05:30 |
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 MB I did not see this until I read Oba85's post,when you said:"Look, regardless of the crimes that there parents commited the people BORN in that land really do have just as much right to the land as any one else.
I'm only being fair and righteous in my observation.
If you say they should be put out the land because they're white...who's to say that us blacks and whites in Europe and America shouldn't be put out also and sent back to Africa?"
I see you are a promoter of "squatters rights" and the charter of thieves and murderers..
ARE YOU CRAZY......? Fortuantely Obal85 has dealt with the issue. My parents and people built this country, as I do; in a way which is disrportionate to our rewards. How you can compare us with these murders and thieves is beyone me..
No, white Zimbabweans should be allowed to have rights. I agree, but behind the Zebras and Girraffes who are Africans; and in my view have more rights than them, and will always have .....I a black man is going to fight for a country, my country; where a white man has, or can have the same rights as me in my soil,[ and place of origin] and our land. That is mighty Christian of you, but if they want those rights stay in their country, or place of origin. We cannot give them what they deny us in their place of origin.
What black people idiots and inferior for real......? 
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Posted: Sunday February 8th, 2004 07:55 |
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Fredblack wrote: MB I did not see this until I read Oba85's post,when you said:"Look, regardless of the crimes that there parents commited the people BORN in that land really do have just as much right to the land as any one else.
I'm only being fair and righteous in my observation.
If you say they should be put out the land because they're white...who's to say that us blacks and whites in Europe and America shouldn't be put out also and sent back to Africa?"
I see you are a promoter of "squatters rights" and the charter of thieves and murderers..
When any foriegner of any colour buys land in any European country legally he has the rights over that land.The fact that he doesn't originate from where the land is bought does not go against him....unless you know differently?
ARE YOU CRAZY......? Fortuantely Obal85 has dealt with the issue. My parents and people built this country, as I do; in a way which is disrportionate to our rewards. How you can compare us with these murders and thieves is beyone me..
Most of the landowners have deeds of ownership issued by the present government since independence,they paid the market rate at the time,the value of that land has increased since.They maybe descended from thieves and murderers...should they suffer for the sins of their forefathers?
No, white Zimbabweans should be allowed to have rights. I agree, but behind the Zebras and Girraffes who are Africans; and in my view have more rights than them, and will always have .....I a black man is going to fight for a country, my country; where a white man has, or can have the same rights as me in my soil,[ and place of origin] and our land. That is mighty Christian of you, but if they want those rights stay in their country, or place of origin. We cannot give them what they deny us in their place of origin.
What rights are denied to any citizen in the UK? Not as many as are denied Zimbabweans in Zimbabwe when casting their vote.
What black people idiots and inferior for real......?
FredBlack....are there any circumstances that a white person can own land in Africa?
How do you define place of origin?
Geoff
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obal85
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Posted: Sunday February 8th, 2004 09:14 |
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TO GEOFF (the white_supremacist),
U wrote: The situation in Zim is a tragedy,the people for the most part are hardworking and educated.The education was driven by Mugabe,one of his better ideas.
There cannot be any doubt that whites came by the land by theft and deception originally and had no rights to own it...but as Zimbabwe has been Independent for 20 odd years it would have been better to have sorted the problem out back then,just after independence and not leave it until comparatively recently when it became an opportunists way of hanging on to populist power.
The farmers have the legal deeds for the lands they farm given to them by the present government after independance..There are obviously some racial overtones with a wealthy elite farming community being predominately white,but over the previous 20 years surely a program picking off farms up for resale to be managed by africans working alongside the acquired knowledge of white farmers would have kept a continuity of food supply for the country.
Irrigation schemes along side the established farms,enlarging the farming area available and then establishing african owned farms.Isreal has created productive land from nothing...with a lot of money pumped in...Zimbabwe could do the same..over time.I dont want to start a Zionist debate here about the amount of aid Isreal recieved...yes I know it was hugely funded from the west.
I seem to recall from my days at school, that the english had an agricultural system that meant everybody inherited land from their fathers,and over time the land was split into smaller and smaller tracks of land wasting the use because of the divisions between and the distances between land owned by one man,even America's farm land was held by many people until it was clear that large farms were more practical to produce food economically.So Zimbabwe's move is a step in the wrong direction....Lets hope it can be resolved before too many people die.
I knew u would be here to continue to spread ur racist propaganda about land in Zimbabwe. U admitted it urself ur forefathers (rhodes) stole the land from its rightful owner (zimbabweans) and it does not matter when the rightful owner take it back from u descendants of white barbarians....as long as they take it off u eventually....thats what matters. Like i said b4...blacks in europe work hard to buy houses, cars, own businesses lawfully etc etc.....they never stole land from ur kind in europe.....so that settles it. The farms were not given to ur kind by the current Government after independence.....u stole it damnit......stop lying through ur teeth.
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Geoff
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Posted: Sunday February 8th, 2004 10:27 |
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It seems the situation is very complex,and to try to see both sides and recognising we are all biased to some degree I have sought to find both sides to this problem.
The biggest job of any government is to look after the wellbeing of its nationals,ie food,health,wealth etc. Communism has failed in most instances to bring well being to its people, alternatively capitalism with all its faults has given us some of the richest nations on earth.Working for an extremely rich company ensures future security normaly.....to have a big commercial sector (who look after their own interests) is better for the financial health of a nation than having small scale independents who are only after self suffiency.To employ someone is to create income,spreading wealth,the larger the operation the more efficient it has to be.Farms are only agricultural businesses,to be effective they have to be well planned,coordinated,well financed.To merely change the owners of a farm means a lose of produce....how can any body know the quirks and problems on a particular piece of land...but to split up that land and expect to maintain a good harvest doesnt seem reasonable.The problems in Zimbabwe stem from many quarters...the bad feelings between whites and blacks only being part of it.
I produce some links and give quotes from them for closer attention....http://www.icl-fi.org/ENGLISH/2003/zimbabwe.html
Yet for almost two decades Mugabe was regarded and occasionally praised by London and Washington as a “moderate� African leader because he perpetuated the economic dominance in both agriculture and industry of the former white colonialists. Western bourgeois politicians and the media scarcely noticed, much less protested, when in the mid 1980s the Mugabe regime waged a war of extermination against the forces of a rival nationalist movement based on the minority Ndebele people. The Zimbabwean army massacred at the time an estimated 10,000 to 20,000 villagers in Matabeleland, homeland of the Ndebele. As long as Mugabe’s regime did not touch, indeed enhanced, the wealth of the white propertied classes, the men who run the City of London and Wall Street couldn’t care less what he did to Zimbabwe’s workers and peasants.
So Mugabe isnt without blemish...
A Dutch journalist of evident left-wing sympathies, Bram Posthumus, neatly cut through the cant and hypocrisy on both sides:“Most ‘Rhodies’ are unreformed racists and I would not want to be in the company of any of them.“On the other hand, the Zanu-PF [ruling Zimbabwe African National Union—Popular Front] top brass was cashing in on white largesse when it suited them. They did not question the economic models that they now claim were foisted upon them by the IMF and World Bank. Why should they? Capitalism has suited them fine ever since they came into power....The point here is, very basically, that neither of these two groups, white farmers and Zanu-PF chiefs, deserve a shred of sympathy, let alone support.�
—New African, February 2002
And the ZANU pf were happy to hold on to the comforts afforded them by the system.
While maintaining the wealth of the white propertied classes, the Mugabe regime also built up a privileged black elite via the state treasury. A large government bureaucracy was formed under ZANU-PF’s patronage. Outright corruption was systemic and massive while the government set up and financed numerous black-owned businesses. The Mugabe regime therefore consistently ran large government budget deficits even in fairly prosperous years. These deficits were initially financed by borrowing heavily from City of London and Wall Street banks at commercial rates of interest. Consequently, the burden of foreign debt doubled from a third of Zimbabwe’s gross domestic product (GDP) in 1986 to two-thirds of its GDP by 1994.
Plus mismanagement?
To begin with, the redivision of the land has been far from equitable. Of the first 600 white farms taken over three years ago, 200 of the largest were given gratis to officials of the ZANU-PF and to Mugabe’s cronies and relatives, including his wife. Inspecting her new 2,500-acre estate, Grace Mugabe announced to the assembled agricultural laborers: “I am taking over this farm� (Guardian Weekly [London], 21-27 November 2002). Only such members of the post-colonial black ruling elite have the money to operate the commercial farms at a profit. The mass of black peasants who now occupy much of this land in most cases don’t even have seeds to plant next year’s crop to feed their families.
And greed and nepotism?
Within a few years agriculture, traditionally the most conservative of occupations, nearly devoid of progress for almost an entire millennium and utterly devoid for several centuries, suddenly became one of the most revolutionary branches of modern industry, if not the most revolutionary. This transformation meant that agriculture progressed from being a handicraft, whose routines were passed down through the generations, to being a science, or rather a complex of sciences, undergoing a rapid expansion in both its empirical and theoretical knowledge. Any farmer not fully at home with such sciences, the mere ‘practician,’ will be helpless and baffled in the face of current innovations, yet cannot continue in the old ways.� [emphasis in original]........Kautsky pointed out that the economic size of a modern capitalist farm is to be measured not in acreage per se but rather in capital per acre, which is directly related to crop yield per acre:.....“The law according to which the more intensive the cultivation of the farm, the smaller its area must be for a given volume of capital also works in the same direction. An intensively farmed small estate represents a larger enterprise than a large, extensively cultivated one.�
So it is not easy to feed a nation...just because you have land?
While 350,000 agricultural laborers and their families worked on the white-owned commercial farms, their number was dwarfed by the six to seven million peasants engaged mainly in subsistence farming in the “communal� lands. As we have seen, the Mugabe regime was able to exploit and manipulate the land hunger of these dispossessed peasants against the MDC opposition (and also against the agricultural laborers).
Was the land issue a political tool used by a sophisticated Mugabe for his own ends.
Other internal issues concerning the Ndebele who's area covers the border between Zim and S/Africa...
http://www.inkundla.net/indonsakusa/citizenship1.html
And an amazing quote from Mugabe here......
http://www.oneworld.org/news/reports/jul97_zimbabwe.html
"Let us remember that there are those who are bent on mischief-making - persons who see in our unity and the history of the struggle that unites us, a force against their own machinations. If we dig up history, we wreck the nation and we tear our people apart into factions."
So no one comes out of this with shining principles....perhaps we are all just humans after all.......... not a super human amonst the lot of us.....
Geoff
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Posted: Sunday February 8th, 2004 10:48 |
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I knew u would be here to continue to spread ur racist propaganda about land in Zimbabwe. U admitted it urself ur forefathers (rhodes) stole the land from its rightful owner (zimbabweans) and it does not matter when the rightful owner take it back from u descendants of white barbarians....as long as they take it off u eventually....thats what matters. Like i said b4...blacks in europe work hard to buy houses, cars, own businesses lawfully etc etc.....they never stole land from ur kind in europe.....so that settles it. The farms were not given to ur kind by the current Government after independence.....u stole it damnit......stop lying through ur teeth.
The country that you call Zimbabwe is an area deliniated by colonialists and named Rhodesia ....it is not a natural African area.
If I save enough money can I settle in Zimbabwe and buy land legitimately? If not why not? Cant you afford me the same priveliges that the west affords Africans?
(Are you my mateTemp in drag? you have the same attitude)
Geoff
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Posted: Sunday February 8th, 2004 22:08 |
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Fredblack wrote:
No I do not come from Birmingham, god forbid ,but let me stop you there Guest. In every scenario where there is a change of regime, or those fighting or seeking to undermine a regime, there will be exiles in foreign countries saying all kinds of things. Some true, partially true and some damn fictious. So simply being a Zimbabwean does not in my eyes provide anyone with legitmacy or authority in the things they claim, as being a Ghanian exile during the time of Nkrumah, or any important African leader or Caribbean leader eg Bishop.
I want to pick up on this point. Iraqi exiles who were anti-Saddam provided large quantities of "intelligence" to the US that proved to be entirely unsupported by the facts. They were telling the US what it wanted to hear in order to gain it's support, not to mention lots of funding. A lot of the WMD claims that the US and the UK were making about Iraq were based on exile-supplied "intelligence" that was swallowed whole without any real analysis. We have here an excellent and topical illustration of the point that Fredblack is making.
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Posted: Sunday February 8th, 2004 22:57 |
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Obal84. Solidier save your strength. Follow your own logic my brother. If what you say is correct,and it is, do you think you are going to change the wazungu's mind. And even if you do what practical relevence does that have. He probably got nuff family eating of the blood and death of Africans in Zimbabwe and have the front to come to a black forum and want to justify his sh*t. The same gun they invented is going to solve their angst, believe that..
He can post all the links he wants. This man ain't reading one of them. Basic solidiers code; and my father would turn in his grave to witness me break it. No white man on this planet, is going to come and attempt to convince me, that any black, or African man, or nation or people are this that or the other.....Don't come to me at work and ask me what I think about Nigerians/Jamaicans, or any black people ,because you will not like the answer-white boy.
Only one of my own, can come with that kind of talk, for him not to receive the standard swift kick where the sun don't shine. As my old pappa use to say, no self respecting white man on this planet is going to take the word of a black man against his kith and kin and blood in something important; and it is insulting for my man to even to assume he can with his links and stuff.
@Technoir. Excellent contemporary example, of the old addage, all that glitters is not gold; especially when it comes to the words of so called exiles or immigrants. When those thieiving b**tards from Caribbean governments get found out, where do they go-straight to the US, because we will find their black arses in the UK for sure..Too many folks here with strong feelings about that kind of thing, and our community is very small here; and you cannot disappear with a bag of the nations money just like that in the UK....
Fred
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Posted: Monday February 9th, 2004 09:41 |
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FredBlack....
Seems a strange stance to close ones eyes to all news from sources you dont think sound.....or even refuse to look at links posted by a wazungu.
I have no family links to Zimbabwe at all other than a Zimbabwean wife...no relatives other than inlaws...all are black.
Perhaps others would like to look at my links and perhaps they may tell you they are not colonialist western interest lead propaganda...as I said...I have looked at both sides of the situation.
http://www.shef.ac.uk/~surc/politics/zimbabwe.html#top
This one seems more than balanced....but of course I have my bias too.
Geoff
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Posted: Thursday February 12th, 2004 12:26 |
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**revised post**
Kunjufu wrote: Obal: If i can discuss a few points regarding this issue and our response to Geoff, I think his questions regarding Zimbabwe are ligitimate, and should be highlighted and debated properly regardless of whether the questioner is black or white..
Now i know given that I did give Geoff an absolute hardtime on Reperation that this will appear hypocritical and perhaps it is.. But for the distinction I would make is on that occassion in my view geoff was clearly forming the arse and disrespecting us our history, culture and a ligitimate concern felt by many..
However in this instance I think it is wrong to dismiss or insult him, when he is in fact raising a perfectly legitimate concern arising from his own observations..that to me is reactionary..
Getting back to the topic it seems to me that there is an enormous number of issues that has become entangled and confused on both sides of this debate.. Your original question that asks whether Europeans should own land inherited from their forefathers is simple absolute no it was stolen it remains stolen regardless of the passage of time..
However the secondary question of whether those who bought land under Mugabe's goverment is not so clear cut. because clearly this type of ownership could be regarded as 'legitimate'..
So this point then moves me onto Mugabe, is his actions initiated by the people right?..For me answer yes in principle..it is absolute right to renationalise the stolen Land and then use it for the people.. However If the question then extends to whether I believe his current method of implementing this policy is correct I would have to say no..and the proof unfortunately is now being felt by the people, basically Mugabe has destroyed his country through shortsightedness and personal ego..
This brings me to whether i believe Mugabe's motives are African centred, no I don't I think they are individualistic in nature and character.. So i'm not one of these African who would cheers him on as a 'fighter' for us.. because clearly his idealogy is NOT sound and his motives are at best questionable..at best!!
So just to conclude my opening gambit on this thread, I do have a serious problem with Black people hailing this man and his action without a proper examination of him, his motives and whether his actions have been beneficial or correct for the people.. It is totally reactionary in my view to hail him just because he says and does things against other equally questionable heads of states in American, Britain. As Africans need to critically examine Mugabe and the whole process his is currently employing and ask questions, serious questions about what is going on in Zimbabwe and its wider implications for everyone..
Last edited on Thursday February 12th, 2004 18:45 by Kunjufu
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Shing
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Posted: Thursday February 12th, 2004 14:23 |
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Can I just respond to some of the **** I've been reading on this forum? Too many different people to respond to but basically;
Anyone who has never been to Zimbabwe and is relying on western media; please shut up!
Anyone who thinks that land reform has failed already needs to consult any serious economist who will tell you that 15 years is a more realistic time to give. How long have any of you given Zimbabwe? Look at the example of India and it's agricultural reform for example. It is not an overnight success story. Any story, any anecdotes of difficulties black people are having becomes for example;
'We are all lazy. Only the whites know how to til the land. Only whites can feed the country. Look what happens when you give land to blacks; they waste it etc.'
Some of you DISGUST me. As if a third world country undertaking land reform is not going to experience difficulties in getting enough help to its people. But after roughly five minutes of land reform that is not an excuse to say it has failed and that we should give the land back to the whites. Those black people who are completely divorced from land and fail to see that WORLDWIDE, land is power should stand aside and let those who wish to have land prosper. Those blacks given land who fail to utilise land will be judged by their country folk who suffer food shortages or not as a result. Anyone who thinks that land was given willy nilly really needs to get their facts straight. I was there, I applied for land and it's a process as thorough and bureacratic as you would expect in any country. As if a govt is just going to hand out acres of land to just anybody. WAKE UP! And stop living under the veil of it's African therefore it's not being done properly. Anyone who thinks that current food shortages are because of land reform is having a laugh. You should go to Malawi and try helping people who are REALLY suffering instead of contributing to propaganda about Zim. Zimbabwe's problems are there but they are being heightened by western financial terrorism as well as sabotage by disgruntled white farmers who stockpile grains hoping to control prices.
It disgusts me how easily black people, zimbos and non-zimbos have fallen for the western propaganda. Do some serious research before you start making sweeping comments that land reform has failed or using adjectives such as 'disaster', 'tragedy' to describe an historic process that is in its infancy. White farmers had over a hundred years to perfect their farming techniques cos believe me the whites who stole land were not farmers when they came to Zim. How long have Zimbabweans been given? Not even five minutes. Also, are black Zimbabweans going to benefit from stealing cattle and slave labour as white 'zimbabweans' did?
I would be the last person to suggest that Mugabe is some kind of saint and that the way he has operated is perfect (Mugabe is a politician not a saint). But the alternative of demonising Mugabe as soon as he does something to offend the west is unpalatable. The alternative of waiting for the BBC to tell us which black leaders are good and which black leaders are bad is unpalatable. When will black people wake up to the fact that it's a simple equation; African leader supporting western interests is good. African leader supporting African interests is bad. Duh!
Land reform is land reform. A Zimbabwean being given land in a fertile area after having inhabited dry lands cannot be expected to wait for a situation when everyone (Zim & the West) agrees that the time is now right for land reform. Power is taken and not given. Does anyone on this forum really think that the current policy of willing buyer, willing seller was making any dents in land inequality? Were any of you really waiting for the day when whites would say 'let's share'?
Anyone who believes any of the propaganda that 7 million Zimbabweans are facing starvation needs to wake up! 7 million is half the population, 1 in 2! Starvation on that scale is unprecedented even in Ethiopia. Starvation on that scale is biblical and yet whenever you see these 'Zimbabweans' on BBC moaning about food shortages or torture they look suspisciously healthy. If there were really half of us starving then do you not think that they would have lots of footage of emaciated people? The people 'protesting' look healthier than some of my friends in UK!
Anyone who really believes that there is a serious issue of human rights violations in Zimbabwe also needs to do some research. Those Zimbos lucky enough to get monies for slandering their Government will soon wise up when those funds dry up. Perhaps when MDC backers in Whitehall realise that their campaign of misinformation about Zimbabwe may be scaring away investors from Zim but they are no nearer their ultimate aim of derailing land reform or regime change. Sell outs like Henry Olonga may have to think twice about touring u.k schools and spreading lies about their own country when the meal ticket is removed.
The massacres of the Ndebele peoples are always used to paint Mugabe as some kind of Hitler figure. Lets push aside the fact that these happened soon after independence and anyone who lived in Zimbabwe will tell you that the fear of counter revolution was a real one. Also lets push aside the fact that there was public reconcilliation after these events. The people of Zimbabwe were able to draw a line under these incidents. Those who wish to dredge up this sad chapter in Zim's history are only promoting a u.k policy of divide and rule. I'm not trying to say that there are no Ndebele people who harbour hatred against the Shona people and vice versa but to try and stoke up a fire where none exists among the general population is unforgivable and the west (and its MDC sell outs) will in time be judged PROPERLY for its disgraceful conduct in Africa both past and present.
Funny how Mugabe's human rights record was only an issue when he started land reform. What an insult to think that the west even gives a monkeys about the supposed loss of black life when the only time they howl about it is when their own interests are threatened. It's easy to harp on about so called human rights abuses in Zim as if it's on some Nazi scale. It's not. Even Amnesty International cannot make a good case about Zimbabwe as the UN a few years back stated that Zim 'had no case to answer'. How can anyone take seriously someone's account of 'having to flee' for their political beliefs when there are members of the opposition living freely AND knocking on doors campaiging in Zimbabwe? What about the loss of black life in custody in UK and USA prisons? Lets lay all these human rights abuses at the door of Blair and Bush as people are doing with Mugabe.
Regardless of Mugabe's well documented 'sins', when African history is written by real Africans he will be judged as a hero. If you think I'm lying just consider Winston Churchill and all he did for the British people during wartime. Apparently he was also responsible for having the Kurds gassed. Not just Hitler doing the gassing eh?
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Posted: Thursday February 12th, 2004 15:07 |
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@Geof. It was not my intentions to respond to you, as is my usual stance to white posters. However ,given the remarks of Kunjufu I will respond this once, to clarfiy, reinforce key FUNDAMENTAL MATTERS OF PRINCIPLE; including giving brother Kunjufu's remarks the respect they deserve.
You have still not satisfied me by your response that you are African ,or black, as I do not on principle engage with white people on a purported black forum. There are a million fora where black and white can engage each other; and a couple of which I am a member. However, this is one of the few black fora, to my knowledge and hence the ability to engage constructively with my own is SACROSANT and in my mind "private" black space..Trying to avoid white opinion is one of the most difficult challenges facing my people, given white institutional dominance at every level. So not wanting to engage wazungus in my private time and space is not difficult to understand.
However, given the higher principle of majority rule, I respect the views of my brothers and sisters on the Forum and accept their wisdom or judgement on the matter in question.
Having said the above, my attitude on discussions concerning Mugabe or any other black leader is very simple to understand and again fundamenally consistent. I will repeat my comments above in full on the issue:
"I know why I support Mugabe, and why I stay silent on other leaders, who I know little about. I also know a bit about the systems and strategies used to demonise African and Caribbean leaders; which is CLEARLY at play in this instance and if the whites and thier friends were not so quick to demonise black/African leaders, we would perhaps be in a better position to seperate reality from myth and propaganda. Where there is doubt as an intelligent black man, I defend my own in the absence of good informatiaon and evidence".
Concerning the Zimbabwean critics of Mugabe, I said:
"More questions have to be asked before we grant these anti Mugabe voices with legitmacy. Same as Nigeria. If god willing there is a radical change in the status quo, and the majority remove this cancerous predator on the civic and political and social system. Bet you any money, many of them will be in England, and the US, saying similar things.
So not dissing you bro, just been around a while to have seen these things before; and was also invovled once in supporting the wrong side during the civil war in Angola. So experience teacheth wisdom.
I respect Robert Mugabe as a leader and radical. If evidence is found that genuinely descredits him, then he must face his fate. These are the principles I live and fall by. But by the same token, we do not take the enemies propaganda, or those from within the country, whose motives and authtenticity we are unable to confirm and side with our enemies against one of our own. Never, ever.
Back in the day, Sekou Toure in Guinea was a hero of the African radical movment worldwide. But as he aged and spent too long in power, he begun to attack and undermine the same democratic and radical principles which he stood at the forefront.
Once this information begun to spread in radical and internationalist African/Black circles, from authentic and legitmate sources, the Pan African world, took a step back and begun to view Toure in a different way and withdrew our support for him. Simple things bro. I would not condemn you on the word of the "Evening Standard", or "Daily Mail", or any white media; or because some one who happens to be black starts to run their mouth.
These are fundamental first principles where I come from. Treat others how you would with them to treat you; especially where the hand of the wazungu can clearly be seen"
I operate from very simple truths. If the anti Mugabe forces in Zimbabwe were the majority he will not be able to hold onto power ,no matter how many elections it is alleged he has rigged; despite the contrary view of international observers by the way many from Caribbean countries, who I know personally.
The truth is the truth, and if Mugabe is what the western media says he is, they would not need to say it; or do the things they are doing. That simple, because the massess will remove him no matter how many weapons the security forces has.
But in fact, where Mugabe definitely can be criticised and I don't have the information to know what was going on and what his priorities were internally, or elsewhere, is why did he allow the people to get so frustrated and anxious, that they took things into their own hands ,thus rendering his control and leadership of events, and by extension having to become pollulist, in the most worrying sense of the word, and be dragged belatedly into action.
None of us can explain this inertia, and most of the explanations given are only part explanations. But what is not in question is Mugabe retains popular support. How he has managed to, and some of his methods may well be suspect; and that is my experience talking not hard evidence, as I have said it is difficult to disentangle white coordinated propagnada, which is politically inspired, from the truth.
So under those circumstances, my position is absolutely correct and morally consistent. Moreover, I have detailed documents in my possession from the Zimbabwean government and other good contacts, and have heard first hand accounts of the covert campaign of disruption which is at work to undermine Mugabe; which squares with my and others assessment of what is going on. I have very close friends who are married to Zimbabwean women living in the country as we speak. Not that they do not have criticisms of how Mugabe has handle particular issues, but not to the degree where they would indirectly support,[or provide the opportutnity for their comments to be used] the propaganda and agendas of those hostile to the Zimbabwean African majority.
Iraq is an excellent example. The thinking world knew Saddam Hussaine was an animal, however only when it suited Western interests did we witness the full ratching up of the Western and other media; bringing its full power to bear on the issue in question. Given the numerous examples we can cite of this opportunistic behaviour, on the behalf of westrern interests, I would be a fool and betray fundamental princples, to take up your offer to examine material, whose primary purpose is to do what, I ask....?
Why this interest in Mugabe and Zimbabwe, at this time. These are the type of questions I suggest discerning people make....What is the desired outcome that the person who is posting these links is hoping for when black people read this information on Zimbabwe....?
Black unity is based on core fundamental and invioble princples, and as I said what Africans have to say on this matter is of more concern to me ,than any white liberal or other views or opinion on the matter. And even if there are exceptions to this truth, I would need to see far more than I have, to ever consider reviewing my position.
If for example, we have evidence of the type of stuff that has taken place in West Africa, Sierre Leone, Liberia with a complete break down in civic order, the willful murder, brutality and violence against the majority, or wide spread corruption as in Nigeria which adversely affects the majority, clear evidence of the suppression of popular dissent, then we are meeting the type of conditions where I would have to change my views.
Now my primary reasons for responding relates to Kunjufu's interesting point which I did not see in MBanks' post, that of the issue of white people who have legitimately bought land in legal commercial transactions. Well that would depend on the fundamental values and objectives strategic and otherwise of Mugabe's government and ZANUPF.
I have no problems of passing legislation to ensure no whites can purchase land in my country, and whether they are renumerated for it, is contingent on many key strategic and long term considerations. In the real world of policy making it is impossible to sqaure every circle and to ensure equity and justice is done to all parties. I know this not only from academic study, but as a professional senior policy maker.
Yes if conscientious will always seek to do the most good to the most number. But hard reality will always dictate some serious injustice will be done to some element or consituency. Look at tax policy for one example. All policy is characterised by underinclusivity and over inclusivity and it cannot be helped.
So taking back land from whites which they bought legitimately is no real problem for me, on ethical or poliitical grounds. Affrimative actions hurts and disadvanages some whites, but life is tough and we live with that. All policy making has to deal with the real world of politics otherwise it would be governed by philosphers and academics, not leaders, who have to deal with reality and political interests. That does not mean ip so facto, all policy making is prostitution, or unprincipled opportunism far from. But to deny political consideration in policy making is fantasyville.
So I have little problems with taking land from whites, who have bought them legally, and there are numerous scenarios where that course of action can be completely morally justified. I can even live with it if it is pure political expediency ,as long as it is clever politics which has some important medium term of other implications.
But for us to decide where we stand, or shall I say where I stand, I need to know much more information than most of us have. If it is a case of just jumping on white people as some form of scape goating, that I would find very troubling.
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Posted: Thursday February 12th, 2004 17:01 |
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Shing is that you..? Life is so funny. I mentioned your name, from the old Forum and if I am not mistaken the last words we shared was me responding to your question about my take on the Zimbabwe situation.
Well life is so funny. Well if it is the orignal Shing regardless of your post, good to hear from you again. Long time....
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Posted: Thursday February 12th, 2004 17:50 |
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@All. As I have said until sister Shing who I mentioned in my first post turned up, and shared her insight. There is a war of disinformation and character assassination going on against Mugabe ,that is a fact and as I said I have documents to show the kind of sabotage and stuff taking place, trying to destroy him by any means necessary.
I have read detailed information which shows who funds the so called internal opposition, their networks of contacts, how they coordinate with outside forces etc, the various prongs of their strategy etc.
It is impossible for any of us, particularly outside the country to make a complete, or even accurate assessment of what is going on in the country, because of the amount of enemy propaganda at play. But as I said, I am not prepared to jump on my people, or any African for the words of our people's enemies. As Shing has pointed out ,concerning Mugabe's economic goals, [which take a long time to bear fruit]; not to mention the concerted efforts of western powers to frustrate them at every turn, and then blame Mugabe.
Tony Blair, like his predecessors, renaged on Lancaster House Agreements, where the British undertook to pay the reimbursement for land transfer; and without this money the process simply could not be smooth. So then to Blame Mugabe, when they and they alone undermined his capacity to deliver and intensify the people's demands for action...
Well welll well. I had no idea what Geoff was talking about when he said Mugabe ordered "ethnic cleansing" in Zimbabwe, as someone who has great affection and interest in that country, I was shocked at his claims, and as you can see above challenged him ,not realising what he was referring to. You will read above, how I questioned whether the people purporting these attrocities, were ZAPU supporters, because if he thinks all of us are ignorant of some of the things that went on, and is going on, then he makes a serious misjudgement.
ZAPU were heavily implicated in the assassination of the great General Joshiah Tongeragarra, who white intelligence and military institutions feared; such was his brilliance as a solidier and hero of the people and his troops.
Now Shing has given me an insight into what Geoff was possibly talking about, I dismiss his allegations with contempt. As I mentioned above, ZAPU since the time of Nkomo was playing a double game, postering about armed liberation; but working with the enemy and I knew that from personal accounts from people who are responsible for these things long time ago..
Any individual who colludes with an external white enemey to squash the collective majority, is the enemy. That person can be one of your brothers, or sworn comrades, but the day he crossess that line he becomes an enemy. If such individuals are leaders of other tribal groups ,it makes not one inch of difference; as the primary issue is not their ethnicity, but their collusion with the enemy.
The day you break fundamental principles and want to ally yourself with whites or others, you are no longer a family member and different rules apply and this is common to all human groups....Why does anybody expect us to be any different...? Wheter we be African Caribbeans or Zimbabwean, all groups must have fundamental rules eg like not sleeping with your children, or neices...
Under such circumstances, those playing such games can expect only one response from any decent leader, which is unleashing the armed forces/security services of the nation loose on them, in order to preserve the stability of the nation. Simple things my friend. Any slaves found colluding with the enemy, passing on information or actively fighting for him knew what to expect in the Caribbean, and most parts of the black world and it stands to reason.
When Dessalines massacred thousands of mixed race Hatians, it was not ethnic cleansing or based on hatred of this group, but based solely on security consideration and the undesputable facts, that the majority of mixed raced Hatians sided with the Frech, Spanish and British at particular key periods in our peoples war of liberation, from one of the most hideous of all slave regmimes.
Anybody who seeks to enslave us, or works with those who desire this outcome, or invites an enemy into my home or country, must understand and expect what any respectful or reasonable man will do in response.....So so much for your "ethnic cleanising" lies and distortion of facts and reality.
When Cubans in Miami, collude and coordinate with the CIA to bring the Yankee into Cuba, they must know what Casto and the Cuban State will do to them. In the same way I suggest if anyone is foolish enough to declare support for Islamic terrorist, and Bin Ladin in particular, in the US. Simply stands to reason and you can't blame them, can you....?
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Posted: Thursday February 12th, 2004 19:53 |
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Shing: Welcome back to the Village...you have been missed...
With respect Shing I must disagree with your opening remarks, whilst I see why you would make this statement, it is consistent to argue that one cannot comment or analysis Zimbabwe just because either they have not visited that country or maybe unfamiliar with all the minute issues of Zimbabwe.. clearly that point of view does not hold water.. If we applied that principle across the board, no one would be able comment about anything...would they?
I also have to say again with the greatest of respect that it is somewhat patronizing and disingenuous to ASSume that my view or the view of others is purely glean from Western media sources... In my case that is simply not true... The fact is I know and I have personally heard Zimbabweans discuss this issue at length and they do not share this rosy view of Mugabe or his motives.. sorry but that is also a fact!!
However speaking for myself even if i were accept that I was taking my view from the western media.. I have some serious questions that I think are legitimate in regards to R Mugabe:...
- First how long has he been in power in a one party state?
- Why is he only now approx 20 years after he first came to power now deciding to implementing land 'reform'?.
- What trigger his sudden conversion to this strategy when he has never discussed or voiced this as a policy issue before?
- Where has he discussed, voice a coherent strategy of how he intends to renationalized the stolen land and his plans to support the people charged with farming it?
- What is his criteria for who should receive the land retaken, who decides and what is the criteria on which this is based?
I could go on asking what to me is very basic and fundamental questions, but the point here is whos responsibility is it to inform and counter the Western media's claims of what is currently happening in Zimbabwe.. You know R Mugabe is not an individual he is the head of a sovereign country...If does not wish to pander to the Europeans fine..but where is his strategy for informing his own people? Sorry but I'm not accepting the 'evil white folks' defense on this one.. He clearly has a responsibility that he is obviously not discharging why?
Before i go on let me also clarify a few things at this point, I'm not a MDC supporter, clearly they are an European funded and backed organization seeking to be the 'black' face of white rule in Zimbabwe... I'm definitely not a Henry Olonga fan, he is a sell out of the very highest order and when I see this joker kissing arse.. it makes my skin crawl..
However learning some of the lesson of Iraq, it is clear that if what fred and Shing is saying is true, then in my view if Mugabe does not learn from what happened to Saddam and Iraq and counter these obvious tactics.. then he is at best incompetent and at worst negligent in ASSuming that he can hold of outside pressure through rhetoric and bravado...
Last edited on Thursday February 12th, 2004 19:59 by Kunjufu
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Posted: Thursday February 12th, 2004 20:14 |
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@Kunjufu. Serious and important questions my brother, but as you have directed your post to Shing, I will watch and learn, as some of the questions you asked I would like answered even though I think I can adequately handle some eg the land issue has not just recently become a key issue, that I do know.
But one issue you and I have raised which is fundamental, and I think goes to the short sighted nature of African and Caribbean leaders, who have only seem to realise the importance of developing their own communication strategies with their supporters or people when it is well too late.
I was summonded literally in the 12th hour to attend a meeting with Senior Zimbabwe Government people to be given information which should have been put out years ago, not once you have allowed the enemy to completely control the debate. The same thing in the US, as my contacts tell me, they wait until the enemy is at the door to turn up in the same grassroot forums where they spent plenty time when they were not in power eg annual Malcolm X Day celebration et al...
So while agreeing with you, this is not unique to Mugabe and almost every Caribbean leader can be criticised the same way. We get summonded often,after they f**k up and seek to rally their nationals after the ink is already dry on the paperwork.
These are genuine criticisms and applicable to many. By the way Shing can speak for herself but I do not belief and hope she seriously does not compare you with any MDC or Henry Olonga types......
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Posted: Thursday February 12th, 2004 20:36 |
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Fred; I agree that most if not ALL the Carribean leaders are equally guilty of the amateurism that I'm attaching to Mugabe..i'm also a feirce critic of these so called leaders too.. But as this question pertains to Mugabe I was trying to highlight some of my concerns..
As you probably guessed I have some very serious issues about Mugabe, and i'm not one of those Cultural nationalist now jumping on this Mugabe 'freedom fighter' bandwagon just because he is decided upon reactionart rhetoric to prolong his stay in power..
So in that regard I would be interested in your view perhaps after Shing has offered hers in response to my questions..
As an aside on the issue of Geoff: just clarify that I'm not suggesting that people HAVe to respond to his questions or entertain him if they do not wish to in our place.. what i'm saying is that I have seriously pushed the line that White folks can post here provided that they respect our space.. If when a poster heeds that line, we then disrespect childishly then we lose credibility.. however to make distinction here I'm not saying that we can't rough him up, or slice n dice his arguement harshly..but to resort to name calling on the basis of his colour and not what he is saying to be is not called for......
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Posted: Thursday February 12th, 2004 21:14 |
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Kunjufu. Don't disagree with anything you have said, with perhaps a qualification. Not in any order. I agree with you, that anyone adopting an conveinient radical or anti imperialist stance is offensive.
The worse example that comes to mind is Idi Amin, and how he used the Ugandan Asian issue. Throw, or force them out by all means, if the issue is of fundamental or strategic importance; but not a conveinient tactic to appeal to deep sentiments about the role of this group in the Ugandan, the African and Pan African world.
There are people who I have met,who seriously will look you in the eye and tell you Amin was an African hero.....So we agree there.
Concerning the treatment of white posters, my view is not based on whether they are foul- mouthed idiots, or geniuses who could elevate our discussions to a higher level. But a basic position. I have no doubt that anybody, black or white, who comes here talking foolishness, on any subject will meet their nemesis-no doubt whatsover. But I think you are correct, once you accept somebody in your home, or space, to overtly abuse them is bad breeding amongst other things.
Hence, why I prefer not to engage them directly...because I know amongst other things they will offend and while I am through self preservation and just basic intelligence have to tolerate them in their world, don't want them in mine-if I can help it.
But regarding Mugabe, [and I am eagerly awaiting Shings response as she has the inside coo];,and like you there are lots of things I would like to know, both good about important work and developments taking place; as well as serious issues about Mugabe's performance.
But one key factor I think in explaining Mugabe's priorities, and goes to the heart of your question about his 20 years in power, I think has to go to consolidating his own power base. I say that not because of any special knowledge, but by observing what radicals, or leaders generally, attempt to do; and it makes sense.
The Russian revolution, and the events leading up to it for almost a century, really helps to inform my view and we can see it every where we look. On one dimension it can appear to be a lust for personal power; and in too many cases is. But looking at it another way. In order for a new regime in a country characterised by instability, or potential instability, or with an immature political culture and institutions, always seek to ensure for good obvious reasons, that their party or organisation which they genuinely believe for good reason, is the agency for stabilty and change, has a duty to ensure that institution is strong and able to survive.
This is where the complex debate, where Lenin distigusished himself; and at the same time unwittingly created the demise of the revolution, by creating the machinary that eventually fell into the hands of Stalin. The dictatorship of the people, the Bolshevick Party, provided the discipline, the organisation, expertise, political education and worldview, and human resources to both develop the country and defend it from external enemies, which were many and powerful.
However, at what point in time, does a leader, if ever give up that power, or bring about the transition to different more inclusive forms of government is another question ,and I think in the African context shaped by the extenal environment to a large degree. Look at Mandela. He went, only once he was satisfied that the future of the ANC was in hand.
So experience elsewhere, can help us to fill in some of the important detail which we would like to know. If a leader is the principle unifying factor, holding a whole range of other leaders together; which is how leadership structures operate, the man cannot always simply slip out of the scene, because that team will collapse and I have seen it first hand.
One or two guys, can bring and keep numbers of talented, ego centric guys together. But once they are gone, internal warfare will break out. A bit like Castro, who is a historic and unifying figure, as Mandella was and still is. The history of the mafia and organised crime will demonstrate this a hundred fold...
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Posted: Thursday February 12th, 2004 21:55 |
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Greetings Untitled, you refer to success story, whose success? One cannot argue that the situation is a good one, but are you advocating the return of colonialism? If that is the case we have nothing to say to each other, if on the other hand you are saying things could have been handled better, and there is still more to do – no argument. You mention 100 years of white rule, I suggest to read, “How Europe Underdeveloped Afrika�, by Walter Rodney. It is not the only book on the subject, but after reading it, I believe we’ll have a more informed conversation. In closing, we have no one else, but ourselves to look to. (Seems like I missed a good deal of the action while the system was down – I’m back!) – PEACE.
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Posted: Friday February 13th, 2004 02:26 |
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Kunjufu....thanks for your even handed approach...I appreciate it.
Mr FredBlack...Thanks for responding so candidly,I have learned a lot from your standpoint and can understand it.You are obviously a man with a lot of experience of the way things are,and not how we would like them to be.While not always agreeing with your opinion I respect it...and a lot of it makes sense also.
Shing.....A quick look at Amnesty International web site tells a different story to the one you catagorically state.A visit to Food & Agricultural Organisation of the United Nations mentions food shortages rather than starvation and food aid needed for 5.5 million people.....Why ban foriegn media from the country? Why the government closure of independent newspapers?
A small anecdotal illustration of my own experience from a short visit to Zimbabwe and the attitudes that may be part of the problem.....Whilst walking in Harare with my wife we were accosted by a man selling trinkets..I declined politely saying I had no money and had already bought some earlier.He would not let us go without appealing to my wife as his sister to get me to buy....He became insistant that I buy to the extent that I remonstrated with him to leave us alone please.My wife advised me to ignore him and to walk away faster...I said no ...if need be I would call a policeman to intervene.We managed to leave him with my wife dragging me away by my arm.Later she explained he was a war veteran...and if I had called the police the chances are the police would side with the veteran...and a bigger problem would have ensued.The point I am trying to high light is that the people feel helpless against the powers that be....the police cant be relied on to be impartial...even in such a trivial situation like that.My wife remains amazed at election time that our neighbours display political posters in their windows....is astounded by TV programmes like Question Time.....too many questions.
Geoff
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Posted: Friday February 13th, 2004 06:35 |
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@KunJuFu
***Shakes head***
Bwoi... have to disagree with here strongly on here... to give this miscreant even the basic time of day is one massive mistake... little Piggy Geoff has already shown his true colours on the Imperialism thread... and during the course of his discourse with TUN(UITOU)... displaying the almost genetically based racism that is common to is ilk... that literally seeps from his pores.. sub-consciously colouring his words despite every attempt to display himself as someone who is free of this incipient racism...
To illustrate the level of this using his own example of the criticism levelled at the bias of the Zimbabwian police forces... for which he lays the blame squarely on the shoulders of Mugabe... as a sign of his mismanagement and corruption...
Yet contrast his statements on the Imperialism thread where on BZ rejection of the "bauble" and the death of his cousin in police custody... where he tried to say that it would have been better for BZ to accept and work within the establishment system for change...
This is the arrogance that we are dealing with here... a "white" man expecting... nay... demanding that on visiting an African country... he be accorded full treatment as that of citizen who has fought and shed blood to free his country from the racist rule of people like himself... but where the official clandestine murder and mistreatment of Africans in this country is highlighted... he attempts to soft soap it and sweep it under the carpet...
THAT... is the dishonesty... duplicity and low down racism that this miscreant is peddling here... and then be expecting US to engage in debate with him...
***Shakes head***
The only remedy is to put a foot across their throat... simple... to do anything otherwise is to welcome their evil into our midst... and thereby lose before we have even started to win...
Simple... WE discuss OUR problems amongst our own kin... not amongst strangers... and most vertainly now amongst enemies... who have not the slightest respect for us and ours...
Be it a discussion on the evils of Mugabe... or any other African... whether in the Americas... the Caribbean... or Africa itself... any attempt at outside interference by a wazunga MUST be meet with a solid wall of unity... this is how every other group Europeans... Asians... etc... deal with an attack on one of their own by an outside party... without that level of solidarity... the continued strategems of divide and conquer will allow others to exploit Africa and Africans... and give over the ruling and running of our countries to governments which are controlled by Europeans...
...Nigeria... South Africa and... most recently Kenya... are three of the more prominent examples... and if we are not careful... Zimbabwe will follow the same route... key countries which themselves to provide the lead role in supplying the example of Africans building and achieving by themselves for themselves...
Peace...
Ijexa
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Posted: Friday February 13th, 2004 10:54 |
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| someone mentioned Amin(RIP), what I like about this man is that he worked his way up through the colonial period, waited for them to decorate him, present him to the queen, get the best training in sandhurst and let them think he was on their side or a sell out to his people, but only to turn around and give them a dirty slap and hand over the land to it's rightful owners. Amen. I hope David lammy is reading, work your way up in those big institue, wear them suits and talk posh and once you get to the top don't forget your downtrodden brothas and sisters. The Indians were brought in to built the railway illegaly by the brits, they all had british passports and Amin was not stupid he knew this, they owned uganda by proxy. It's one thing to be colonised BUT another to be re-colonised by another race brought in to step on you and your own. Damn right his my hero. Mugabe is now called the new "Amin", so Aminism is the new word given to any black leader wishing to empower their people. When Amin died last year the BBC ( proven liars)and the rest of the world chose to ignore the vast mouring and state of shock the whole of Uganda was in, believe be, big men where crying,the whole country came to a standstill. The present president Museveni hang his head in shame and forced himself to not only apologise but welcomed back Amin's elder son and even returned all his properties,land and pension to this family and gave his son a top position in his government. Outsiders who don't know anything about but rely on the BBC on African issues should just shut up!
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Posted: Friday February 13th, 2004 14:02 |
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Fred, Ijexa, Shing, Obal and any other interested parties: I'm going to start a thread on how we respond to and treat Europeans who post here... I think the debate on Zimbabwe is too important to be diverted from its present focus.. so Please any further points on Geoff should be posted on the Thread that I will start sometime today..
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Posted: Friday February 13th, 2004 14:54 |
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| Kunjufu. Over and out. Message understood.
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Posted: Friday February 13th, 2004 15:29 |
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@Kunjufu
Okay, I partially retract my comment. What I should have said was, anyone who is relying upon western media only – shut up! I would also add that even those who are relying upon anecdotal evidence of Zimbabweans this is not enough. To have opinions about certain aspects of the Zimbabwe ‘crisis’ one must at least have been there to experience first hand what is supposedly going on. Anyway, your questions;
1 How long has he been in power in a one party state?
An irrelevant question when you look at the state of most African countries political classes. To address the political disenfranchisement of many Africans one must first look at the standard of living. Who cares about political canvassing when the rains haven’t come and the arid land your family were dumped on is not going to produce a harvest worthy of the name? The fact is that Africa’s political classes will not improve until we have populations with a standard of living beyond mere survival or living day to day. That is fact. Opposition for the sake of opposition is not democracy. Your question also shows the glossing over of Zimbabwe which I expect from western media. Mugabe has been there for over 20 years so this must mean that....
There have been quite a few strong minded individuals who tried over the years to mount a challenge to the Zanu PF party. Lack of support from Zimbabwean people and non existent financial backing has meant that no ‘party’ lasted more than five minutes. Until the MDC that is. One of the reasons why people with common sense in Zimbabwe were immediately suspicious of these new ‘saviours’ was the financial angle. MDC were able to literally overnight rally support, transportation, campaign posters etc. No opposition worthy of the name had been able to do so before. What was the difference now? Money, and where was this money coming from? The motivation and roots of the MDC were obviously from an anti land reform policy.
The question you should therefore ask is:
What happens to African leaders when they implement policies aimed at raising the standard of living of indigenous Africans?
Another point to add about your original question is that until there is full freedom in Zimbabwe, Zanu PF will always be the party that gets the most votes in elections simply because they are indelibly linked with delivering freedom to the country. The only thing which will divorce people from that attachment is money. When people’s standard of living is much higher and parties will form naturally to support different interests and goals that people have. This is what happened in developed countries. The tragedy of Africa is that outside interests have sought to implant parties and ideologies of their own. That is not development. Perhaps the question you should also ask is;
Why haven’t Zanu PF got rid of Mugabe?
2 Why is he only now approx 20 years after he first came to power now deciding to implementing land ‘reform’?
Are you serious Kunjufu? Yet more glossing over. Because Mugabe did not physically begin land reform until 2000 this means that there were no steps prior to this. This means that it was literally an overnight decision wasn’t it? What you are actually saying is that because BBC news did not report anything until the west deemed the situation was critical, i.e that Mugabe was now taking land this means that nothing was going on before.
What you need to do is subtract the ten years which left Mugabe's hand tied according to the Lancaster House agreement and then find out what happened in the following ten years. I recall Mugabe trying to get the UN to apply pressure on UK to meet it's obligations of the Lancaster agreement. And this was before the year 2000.
I agree that Mugabe’s timetable for land reform was not entirely his own. The land protests of war veterans if allowed to continue could have turned nasty for Mugabe. Also, if he had allowed the land issue to remain unaddressed prior to elections then this would have given political impetus to the war vets who have some power in Zim. They could have started their own party or worse still caused civil disobedience in the country. So, at worst Mugabe chose a policy he knew would be popular to remain in power. (the first politician in the history of the universe to do so). At best he responded to a situation that any observer would have told you needed to be dealt with.
3. What trigger his sudden conversion to this strategy when he has never discussed or voiced this as a policy issue before?
Your term ‘sudden conversion’ tells me that you have been relying on western media for your analysis. Think about it. An example. From reading the mirror or the sun or guardian in the time leading up to the congestion charges in London I was able to learn about opposition to it and the Mayor’s reasons for doing it. What steps were being taken etc. Now if I had been abroad all this time and not checked uk press websites on a regular basis I could pick up a newspaper that told me that congestion charging has started today. I could then scratch my head wondering what brought this all on. What do you think was going on in Zimbabwe prior to land reform? What do you think was being debated in Zimbabwe parliament prior to land reform? ‘when he has never discussed or voiced this as a policy issue before?’ When you have never seen BBC reporting on a debate in parliament about proposals for land reform.When you have never seen BBC reporting a Mugabe speech about land UNTIL the situation was deemed to be serious by the west i.e they realised he was not just talking about land reform he was now doing it. i.e UNTIL white lives or livelihoods were at risk.
4. Where has he discussed, voice a coherent strategy of how he intends to renationalized the stolen land and his plans to support the people charged with farming it?
Should I laugh or cry? Just come out and say it. You think Zimbabwe is a banana republic don’t you? Zimbabwe needs something like Hansard online so that people such as yourself can read about what is debated in Zimbabwe. Did you know that the Zimbabwe parliament system is closely modelled on the UK’s system. That is, the president does not just announce one day that he is going to do something, it is debated and voted on in parliament. I agree that at the moment Zimbabwe needs an opposition worthy of the name so that the govt is more adequately challenged on policies. But actually I’ve heard MP’s representing in parliament on issues such as getting agricultural units in time for the rains. The govt has not had an easy ride on land reform.
5.What is his criteria for who should receive the land retaken, who decides and what is the criteria on which this is based?
The land is just given to anyone who turns up at Mugabe’s house.
‘where is his strategy for informing his own people?’
His own people in Zimbabwe? Are you suggesting that people in Zimbabwe are so misinformed that they are protesting on the streets in their masses? The MDC attempts to inspire people to take over failed. There was no popular support. Almost one hundred people does not constitute a majority or popular feeling. I agree that Zimbabwe has no national media worthy of the name. Certainly nothing with the reach of CNN. On ZBC1 there have been advertising campaigns reminding people of the importance of land. I’m not saying this is enough but to reach Zimbabweans living in the west is a bit more difficult and perhaps beyond the ruling party’s capabilities at the moment.
It’s a sad fact that many of the bright young things who make up Zimbabwe’s ‘media classes’ have been swallowed up by the ‘independent’ newspapers who sprang up in response to land reform. The government has not liberalised the media to the extent which the western world would like. I say, so what? If liberalising the media means a proliferation of lies and misinformation like the stories about Basildon Peta then yes, ban it. That is just my own opinion. The media plays an important role in Africa’s fight for economic freedom. Those who think that the struggles ended with the awarding of flags and new names are seriously mistaken. I agree that banning western media from Zim does make a bad impression. But after reading some of the lies and often racist crap coming out from various western media I fully understand the siege mentality. Many countries fear being swamped by other cultures. Just take a look at some of France’s laws surrounding radio play of it’s own artists for example. And France is a developed country!
Anyway. It’s one thing to have inaccurate reporting or sheer slander when you have adequate bodies in place to regulate it and a population with enough food in its belly to remain vigilant and write letters of complaint etc. But when some of these lies have financial consequences for the entire country such as the scaring away of potential investors or tourists then I think the actions of the Zim govt are entirely justifiable.
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Posted: Friday February 13th, 2004 15:32 |
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@Geoff
Nothing I’ve seen on Amnesty International website that I’ve not seen on BBC or ITN lunchtime news. Their sources for torture accounts are dubious to say the least and they do not have anything credible which suggests a govt sponsored campaign of terror. I repeat, if you have Zim folk coming to UK saying they are in exile for their beliefs then how are MDC still campaiging in by elections? How is it I can still be approached by an MDC rep urging me to vote for them? People such as yourself and the UK govt have taken advantage of the fact that people in Zimbabwe are desperate to come to the UK. Regardless of one’s stance on the land issue, Zimbabwe is still a third world country. People still want to leave to make quick money etc. Until that factor is removed from the equation I will take any ‘accounts of torture’ with a pinch of salt. Also, if the govt sponsored campaign of terror and security threat was anything like what western media and Amnesty International have suggested then you would expect certain things to follow;
Removal of foreign ambassadors
General climate of fear
None of these things are apparent to me at the moment.
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