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Posted: Sunday April 11th, 2004 13:31 |
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@Geoff & Caff
‘Of course there would be a reaction ...and a reasonable reaction’
Dream on. I'm sick of white people and white media always wanting blacks to believe that black leaders always go for the more brutal option, the most corrupt option. There is no thought process, just land grab. You make me laugh. Even when the whites stole the land there was a thought process behind it. That of course is more legitimate on the international stage than black people reclaiming what is rightfully theirs.
‘…it shouldn't be beyond a clever mans intellect to frame laws phaseing in a percentage of land regeneration or redistribution attached to every white owned farm as an annual tax so redistributing the land over time back to the indeginous population….’
It isn’t beyond anyone’s intellect even yours but why should we have to wait when the u.k govt has reneged on playing their part of the bargain. Why be even handed with people who continually take the mickey? It is my opinion that land reform is land reform however you disguise it. You would get the same racist response from the white govts and media of the world. If the white farmers were willing to give up the land at any stage then maybe THEY would have been supporters of such a fairytale scheme. The reality is that time and time again they have resisted even the most minimal of land redistribution efforts after Zim independence with economic sabotage and general disdain for the black govt of the day. Your solution as a white man would be to frame a law that would get the same benefits over time as enforced Land redistribution. I say to you to get real.
If I take your house today of course you are going to resist immediately. If I start taking your house brick by brick are you going to sit back and do nothing? Unless you are a total idiot you can see the same outcome i.e no house.
‘Do you mean 80% of developed land? .....this is where the racial element comes into this question….now Mugabe sees the Whites to be unfairly having the best land.’
It’s a little bit more than that Geoff. Again I must ask you, do your white friends have such a foothold in Africa through sheer coincidence or sheer hard work or theft/genocide? Like I said before dopey;
How can one avoid being ‘racial’ in returning the land to the rightful owners if the original action of theft was discriminatory in the first place? YOU STARTED IT.
‘They may say Im a dreamer...’
Yep.
Unsurprisingly you attribute your white farmer kin minority in Zim with an honesty and fair-mindedness that they have never shown in Africa. Africans are always being asked to be virtuous and saint-like (follow the rule of law) even when they are thrust into dealings with the devil-like mentality of white people protecting their own interests.
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Posted: Sunday April 11th, 2004 13:37 |
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@Basher B
You’re a strange one.
I prefer the out and out racists who spew abuse. At least it’s obvious what you’re dealing with and the moderators shut them down. What’s your mission with the article about Rwanda on a forum about white land grabbers in Zimbabwe?
Your picture about debating on the internet made me laugh. If you agree with its sentiment then what are you still doing here? You know where to go.
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Geoff
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Posted: Sunday April 11th, 2004 23:41 |
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Shing ....
Mis-interpretation yet again,or worse....the white farmers dont have to like it...like paying tax,its a requirement. The foothold was due to all things you mentioned Shing....illegal...or at least immoral to begin with...followed by hard work,very hard work over generations.That is part of the reason they are reluctant to give up on their efforts...its only natural....from their viewpoint,are we giving them the right to have opinions or rights? If these priveleged minority are holding the majority back,who could deny action against their excesses? I attribute nothing to the farmers other than they are human beings with the same faults as you and I...protecting your home and livelyhood is very natural...I am a docile individual most of the time but enter my home unwanted and see me in a different light.I dont look for problems outside my door...my home is my domain....Zimbabwe is your domain...draft laws for the good of the majority.If some dont play your game .....legislate....legislate fairly for the good of the majority. To my mind the experience of these collective farmers is a resource that is being wasted....by Zimbabwe...for they will use that painfully gained knowledge somewhere...and indeed have to relearn the new localities own difficulties.And remember some of these farmers and probably the majority(I dont know) have no connection to the crimes of the colonialists other than being white....if that is to be a cime in your Zimbabwe.
I lived through the Aparthied years watching it all on BBC TV news...tonight I watched a programme about the trial of Mandela and co on BBC4.I had never realised how many whites had been involved in the struggle,several of the main defendants were white,the saboteurs targeting property were an all white group,the groundswell of public opinion where individuals boycotted South African produce was mainly white from the developed west.....Now to my naive mind...and considering the intervening years....and with the right approach ...Zimbabwe could have carried the world's opinion with it.....I.E. rich priveleged elite,downtrodden majority,USA an UK reneging on promised help........Its all down to personalities and approach...
I will try to refrain from replying any more to this topic because ....you put a spin on a lot of my words...extend what you think I say ....to what you think I should be saying or what you want to hear me say....I see the white Zimbabwean farmers as White Zimbabweans....you see them as and extension of western dominance...an arm of western financial domination...linked somehow directly to Downing street or Capitol Hill.....I see them as a marginalised minority...not perfect human creatures...but people none the less...doing their best for themselves and family.They are using the system for their benifit....change the system....its should be within the countries power.If as you say they are anti Zimbabwean or flouting laws in place for the betterment of that country deal with them as such.
Just two more observations......Up to now it is you that has mentioned corruption in Africa....I have never spoken about it...or even responded to your mentioning it...it seems a sore point to you,and rightly so.My own experiences of corrupt practices in Zimbabwe.....there for a total of 14 days I witnessed first hand three major instances...two involved passport office irregularities .....one ....a local queue was jumped because people knew people and a gratuity was paid....two....walking past a queue of perhaps 150/200 people outside the Harare head offices led into the head honchos office to be given an immediate resolution there and then because people knew people...........three....Harare airport two day wait for release of cargoe until nods and winks and "tips" miraculously released consignment into our hands.And this is just the background to my first anecdote about the different attitudes /outlook/expectations from myself and many Zimbabweans....not a racial observation...it was not because I was there ...a marungu...I was just an observer...an amused...bemused observer.
And finally....Basher B is a schoolboy nutter....I think I mentioned that or similar first off...lives in Zoo York and watches the Birmingham blues? He lives in a flat ?(apartment) is off to Florida in August for a month? just as the schools close over here?
Byeee Shing....will give your regards to Caffy
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Posted: Wednesday April 14th, 2004 13:42 |
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@Geoff
‘the white farmers dont have to like it...like paying tax,its a requirement.’
And you seem to think that their not liking it has nothing to do with current u.k stance against Zimbabwe and western media misinformation. Surprise surprise. Do you think these imperialists are powerless beyond writing angry letters? What do you think the mdc was all about? A political party funded all to stop black people getting land. You make me laugh.
‘The foothold was due to all things you mentioned Shing....illegal...or at least immoral to begin with...followed by hard work,very hard work over generations.’
The ‘hard work’ of white farmers as opposed to what? You underestimate what their original land thefts constitute. Did they steal arid land? No they took all the best high veldt land for themselves and so a black farmer on crappy land can work as hard as he wants but is the yield the same? What has hard work got to do with it? I'm sure you'll find lazy white farmers and lazy black farmers and vice versa. The crucial distinction is that whites took ALL the best lands for themselves. Who was in a position to have bumper surplus harvests and so able to plan ahead and who was living from day to day? It is this disgusting immoral anomaly which you totally ignore as if whites landed in Africa, bought lands fairly and then proved themselves to be harder working then the natives. As if Mugabe is now jealous of white farmers for working hard where his own people had not. Colonial wrongs will be righted in Africa and the sooner white people get used to that fact the better. White people need to look at the behaviour of their own people past, present before criticising blacks who try to challenge white domination. You really are in no position to judge anybody. The poor world must pay heed to your judgements and proclamations because you have all the money and might equals right. Quite simple really.
White farmers cannot be compared to say the middle classes in u.k who moan at the slightest tax rise. These are people who stole or are the immediate beneficiaries of theft amongst other crimes. They bulldozed their way into Africa and tried to make it their permanent home of priviledge on the back of murdered, tortured and dispossessed Africans. Those who are trying to maintain that privilege in the hope that they will be absorbed into history like the aristocracy in u.k are as guilty as the original colonialists not merely;
‘human beings with the same faults as you and I...protecting your home and livelyhood is very natural...’
‘I am a docile individual most of the time but enter my home unwanted and see me in a different light.’
How about entering Africa unwanted and stealing everything for yourself? One rule for whites……..
‘If these priveleged minority are holding the majority back,who could deny action against their excesses’
Exactly! Speak to tony blair and bush about why they seem to have a problem with it. It’s common sense really.
‘And remember some of these farmers and probably the majority(I dont know) have no connection to the crimes of the colonialists other than being white....if that is to be a cime in your Zimbabwe.’
If being white was used as leverage in gaining unfair advantage over blacks then yes being white could be said to be a crime. Like I keep saying to you, YOU STARTED IT. Anyone who challenges the original racism of your white kin in Africa against black Africans will be open to your ridiculous charge. Land can only be taken once, by white people. After that, the world (blacks, aborigines etc) must respect property rights. Get real. White imperialists/farmers in Africa ARE a large part of the problem. The problem will not be solved until they are dealt with.
‘They are using the system for their benifit....change the system....its should be within the countries power.If as you say they are anti Zimbabwean or flouting laws in place for the betterment of that country deal with them as such.’
All these things are being done. People like yourself and western media are the ones who ‘alert’ the world to a perceived problem in protest at your privileges being challenged.
‘you put a spin on a lot of my words..’
As opposed to your practice of putting a spin on u.n data and answering questions I ask you with sidetrack ‘observations. Like this; ‘Up to now it is you that has mentioned corruption in Africa....’ What’s your point? The tone of your ridiculous observation implies that I had accused you of mentioning corruption. Where have I done this? And in fact the corruption you go on to talk about having witnessed is not how I have spoken about corruption AT ALL on this forum. This is similar to your previous inability to understand my use of Hitler. You are like an internet search engine that can only respond to keywords and give a list of irrelevant information simply because one has used a key word. The context and purpose of using the keyword is totally irrelevant to you.
‘it seems a sore point to you,and rightly so..’
If you want to know my views on corruption you would do well to ask me as opposed to insinuate.
I could list all of the unanswered questions I’ve asked you (some more than once) but I wont bother as you said;
‘I will try to refrain from replying any more to this topic…’
So, here’s hoping.
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Posted: Friday April 16th, 2004 15:15 |
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@all
Wondering if this news will be reported on bbc 'news';
'THE United Nations has once again given Zimbabwe a clean bill on human rights after it rejected attempts by some Western countries to get the world body to take action against Harare on alleged human rights violations.
The majority members of the UN Commission on Human Rights yesterday rejected a resolution, sponsored by Western countries who have been hostile to the Government for embarking on land reforms, to take action against Zimbabwe, at a 60th session of the commission’s meeting in Geneva, Switzerland.
For the second year running, the UN human rights body has rejected attempts to punish Zimbabwe for alleged human rights abuses despite spirited campaigns by Britain, the United States and other European countries.
According to sources in Geneva, Zimbabwe got support from all the 15 African countries which are members of the commission, 10 Asian countries, one South American country and a European country.'
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Geoff
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Posted: Friday April 16th, 2004 23:54 |
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Any links to this good news Shing?
http://news.amnesty.org/mav/index/ENGAFR460062004
Geoff
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Posted: Saturday April 17th, 2004 16:45 |
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@Geoff.W.Bush
I knew it was too good to be true but then it's no surprise. white man is desperate to have the last word and control the airwaves everywhere. Oh well.
As to your link. What's your point? There are no human rights abuses going on in your own back yard eh Geoff?
You think that gossip and unsubstantiated reports constitute a crisis? You think that a few (10) white farmers getting killed while desperately clinging to colonial gains is anything for the world to get its knickers in a twist about?
If there was any balanced reporting in your myopic world we would be reading and hearing about the large numbers of murders and attacks on white farms in South Africa. If you really give a monkeys about the suffering of black folk then why don't you focus on those who are really SUFFERING and not those who are facing understandable and neccesary social upheaval from such a radical policy (land reform). Land reform would result in conflict and some problems REGARDLESS of whether rhodies and u.k clubbed together to cause more problems.
Interesting part of the article;
'Amnesty International is calling on the Zimbabwe authorities to ensure that the police and army abide by the highest standards of professionalism and respect for human rights.'
Just like Amnesty International have called on u.k and u.s to ensure the human rights of 'illegal combatants' in Guantanamo Bay. Just like Amnesty International have criticised your u.k govt for not doing enough to ensure the safety of prisoners in custody. Just like......The list goes on. Like I said before, you and your white kin are in no position to judge anybody. Again the u.n has concluded that Zimbabwe has 'no case to answer' with regard to human rights. Again, like a typical rhodie you come back on this site bleating about 'good news'. So desperate to share this information that the western media has been repeating ad verbatim since Mugabe started land reform. I've got one word for you; IRAQ.
So, if you're able to look beyond your white-tinted specs and see that human rights abuse is not a 3rd world problem then the question remains; why the hoo ha over Zimbabwe? It really doesn't take a genius to figure it out. Since land reform began in 2000 there has been an overwhelming clamour by west for regime change BECAUSE of human rights abuse. Ha Ha Ha. It is white people who have shown the world time and time again that they only respect the human rights of their own kind and that when it comes to WMD they're their only ones who are allowed to use them and indiscriminately. Then, as a result of white media domination, the rest of the world must sit back and listen to the pronouncements of white politicians telling us about the latest 3rd world leader who needs to be removed and the latest 3rd world country which needs 'intervention'.
Change the record.
Imagine......Geoff not reverting to type.
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Posted: Saturday April 17th, 2004 17:19 |
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So no link then Shing? ...
http://www.sokwanele.com/default.htm
may be of interest....while you find that link for us.
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Posted: Saturday April 17th, 2004 18:08 |
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@Geoff.W.Bush
'sorry'
Didn't realise you actually wanted a link. I missed that bit. I went straight to your 'link'. Anyway lest you start behaving like a dog after a bone here it is...
http://www.herald.co.zw/index.php?id=30980&pubdate=2004-04-16
I put the ' ' marks at the beginning and the end but I forget to write Herald Newspaper etc. Easily done. But 'good news',as you called it, remains the same. Zim has no case to answer according to the u.n.
and while searching for that link you so 'desperately' wanted I found another one;
http://www.irinnews.org Go there then click the news story entitled:
'ZIMBABWE: "No action" vote by South bloc defeats human rights resolution'
Try finding the results of the u.n human rights findings on any other western news site. I typed in various combinations of key words and could only find the above two. If YOU find any, please post the links here. I would be interested to see how your impartial media report it (if at all). Probably we'll both be 'wondering if this news will be reported on bbc 'news'.
BTW
I find it funny and rather distasteful that a white man can skip past news on front page of this site;
'April 16, 2004
Still no justice for Roger Sylvester - Public meeting - Sunday 18 April 2004, 5-7pm'
AND BE IN SUCH A HURRY to alert us poor black folk about poor black folk sufferings in Zimbabwe. I wonder if Mugabe or any other 3rd world leader is going to finance the family of Roger Slyvester or Christopher Alder or Brian Douglas or Joy Gardner or Shiji Lapite or Ibrahima Sey or Mikey Powell(to name a few)to speak abroad about the human rights abuses perpetuated here. Those in glass houses..........
Again I must ask you; why the hoo ha over Zimbabwe? And if you can be bothered to even consider answering that question, please remove your white tinted spectacles first.
Imagine....Geoff not taking the p*ss
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Posted: Saturday April 17th, 2004 20:13 |
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Last edited on Saturday February 25th, 2006 09:04 by
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Posted: Sunday April 18th, 2004 01:58 |
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Shing and BlackMatta......
there is a strange irony here.....of course there are civil rights abuses in every country....but there are degrees to all and every situation.
To mention Shing's comment about the first page of this very site....I never enter this site by the front door...I arrive directly at these forums....that is what I have bookmarked...sorry....but I investigated..and it says...
Still no justice for Roger Sylvester - Public meeting - Sunday 18 April 2004, 5-7pm
I understand public meetings .....shall we say are "monitored" in Zimbabwe...so comparisons can be made directly in this instance......would the same meeting be "allowed" in Zimbabwe?...Because we have abuses here does that mean that all and every other abuse in every other country, and the extent of that abuse comparitive to the abuses here shouldn't be mentioned.I am appalled by some of the things that happen in my country....I Watched a programme about a guy who died in police custody...he happened to be black ....and I was..... unhappy....about his treatment.But to be honest...it could have been a white guy....it may have been racial..who can really say....but whatever...his treatment was not good....but while saying that ...understandable.There are troublesome drunks every Saturday night in most police stations nationwide in the UK ...who lay on the floor and make snuffling snorting noises....this time it was a tragedy....no excuses.A terrible terrible mistake....a hard call to say the police were criminally implicated...negligent yes without doubt...no doubt at all....possibly racial....definately a stain on our collective conscience....
But does it compare? The wholesale abuses that are occuring in Zimbabwe.But I have never focused on that....strange that you should bring it up so often.....I repeat again....the lady protests too much.
The tone of your "alert us poor black folk about poor black folk suffering" etc.....I have never mentioned blackness as opposed to whiteness...white wrongs opposed to black wrongs....wrongs have no colour.....make a stack of wrongs ...black on black Zimbabwean on Zimbabwean against in Zimbabwe...... and measure them against the wrongs white on black in the UK (by numbers involved)...and who might (win) lose? No contest I would say........And now we are talking about current events..not historical wrongs. The present regime in Zimbawe could be said to be anti western? That is fair enough....understanding the wrongs that have been involved ....so ponder the following....can give you the link (google again...should I apologise?)
Zimbabwe's ministers, who stand accused of plundering their country's wealth, are spending fortunes on educating their children abroad Some ministers have reportedly paid more than double their annual salaries on tuition and residence fees for children enrolled at Harvard University in the US
Ministers Sydney Sekeramayi (Defence), Stan Mudenge (Foreign Affairs), Simbarashe Mumbengegwi (Higher Education and Technology), Herbert Murerwa (Industry and Technology), Shuvai Mahofa (Youth, Gender and Employment) and Emmerson Mnang agwa (Speaker) all have or had children at finishing schools or universities in Britain. Mines and Energy Minister Edward Chindori-Chininga and the provincial governor of the Midlands, Cephas Msipa, enrolled their children at US schools. Rural Resources and Water Development Minister Joyce Mujuru's offspring were in Switzerland and Britain while Health and Child Welfare Deputy Minister David Parirenyatwa had a son at Durham University in Britain.
It is the double standards that are amazing....men of concsience? Degrees of corruption?
If I give a monkeys? How long have you been here ....to talk like that? Focus on those that are really suffering?....and not those who are facing understandable upheaval from such a radical reform? Understandable? What if the people suffering are the people that are facing unreasonable upheaval due to mismanaged but needed reforms? Gossip and unsubstantiated reports?I have never mentioned the death of ONLY 10 white farmers...why do you? The crimes are more than that involved here.....If the position was reversed....If I was Zimbabwean...black Zimbabwean...and had to choose between a government that had only its own designated press journalists TV channels....who preached reform against the colonial past and its inequalities...while sending their children into the heart of the "enemies" environs to "better themselves" hand in hand with dessimating the economy ....and it doesn't matter if they MEANT well........
If you were to read what I ACTUALLY SAY and not what you expect me to say...subtract my obvious prejudices/agenda....modify your own assumptions/assertions....and then meet in the middle....
And that for sure is my last meandering word on the subject....but to reiterate...Hope I am wrong and you have it right...god help the little people of Zimbabwe if my concerns are correct.........but that is the beauty of an open society...changes can be made...as wrong as it can be ...it can be righted...one day ...one day here ....
Imagine that in Zimbawe Shing.............
Caff and Geoff XXX
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Posted: Sunday April 18th, 2004 09:18 |
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TO KUSH,
U wrote: Despite the fact... what are you, some kind of Uncle Tom N****r? Afrika belongs to Afrikans, irrespective of what we do with our land, if you and yours wish to live under white-world domination so be it, but some of us have other plans!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
R u short-sighted or mentally disturbed or what?....whats the point u r trying to correct exactly cos u r not making any sense. I dont like chatting with a 17 year old for ur fuc****king info. I suggest u shush if u have nothing sensible to add ass*****hole.
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BlackMatta
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Posted: Sunday April 18th, 2004 11:36 |
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Last edited on Saturday February 25th, 2006 09:05 by
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Posted: Sunday April 18th, 2004 23:47 |
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BlackMatta.......
I cannot deny the basic thrust of your arguement that Minorities dont enjoy the same level of protection that the indigenious population do in the UK.....the difference being that laws have been framed to address these deficiencies....it will take time for us to live in that perfect world....when peoples minds catch up with the laws.
Again privelege is rife in the UK....but it dont make it right....or acceptable...nor is it a blueprint that needs to be followed to attain "national construction" And for a country that is rejecting the inequalities of the western system to cynically use that trait as an excuse in its own developement seems to me to be hypocrisy beyond reasonable behaviour....
Forget the sensitivities of the dispossesed white farmers,focus on the practicalities of "fast tracking" a major part of your countries economy by removing the engine of that industry......that is the knowhow....the experience...the infrastructure.It takes more than good land to make a succesful farm.Can banks finance the requirements of these newly acquired farms when there is still so much uncertainty?
I accept wholeheartedly the need for Zimbabwe to be master of its own destiny,to develope its own resources for its own benifit.....all I have ever questioned was the way that is being done....as simple as that.
Geoff aka Caff
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Posted: Monday April 19th, 2004 19:36 |
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@Geoff
‘I understand public meetings .....shall we say are "monitored" in Zimbabwe’
Do you think the police in this country will ignore the Roger Sylvester meeting?
‘would the same meeting be "allowed" in Zimbabwe?...’
Why don’t you find out and stop relying on propaganda from people who are guilty of EVERY CRIME (and more) that they accuse Zimbabwe of?
‘Because we have abuses here does that mean that all and every other abuse in every other country, and the extent of that abuse comparitive to the abuses here shouldn't be mentioned.’
No, that’s cool so long as you’re capable of adding context and balance. Minus lies and propaganda then we should be fine. Furthermore if you're relying on evidence from a media(propadanda) machine financed by the very people who are trying to manipulate the situation to their own ends then one has to ask what's the point?
You point to web links of sites entirely devoted to Zimbabwe's crisis? Do you know who finances all this? It's not Mugabe (of course) and it's definitely not the 'little people of Zimbabwe'. So at this time when Mugabe decides to take land back, is who is digging into their pockets to finance websites, posters, campaigns, newspapers?
When it comes to bleating about corruption or human rights abuses, those in glass house shouldn't throw stones. And when it comes to bleating about corruption or human rights abuses whenever the west wish to practice regime change then the best thing for whites and sell out blacks to do is Shut the hell up!. Plain and simple.
‘Zimbabwe's ministers, who stand accused of plundering their country's wealth, are spending fortunes on educating their children abroad..’
What’s your point Mr Gossip Mongerer?
If we take all your ridiculous arguments about the wealth of Zimbabwe politicians to its extreme it would seem a man like yourself would only be happy for our leaders to dress in rags as a true reflection of the country's wealth. An exaggeration of course but blackmatta’s point is key here.
'Privilege among ruling classes is a historical fact in every country's development and is still rife among royalty, Conservative and increasingly Labour politicians in this country.'
Why do white people think that there can only be one class of black person in Africa i.e poverty stricken? They think that upper class is one thing in the west and another thing in Africa.
‘It is the double standards that are amazing....men of concsience? Degrees of corruption?’
It is your double standards that the 3rd world finds not merely amazing but disgusting. Prove your point about corruption (if you can) but telling us which minister sends his kid where – what’s your point Mr Gossip Mongerer? Do you have a list of schools for which a Zimbabwe minister is allowed to send their kids to by approval of blair & bush?
‘subtract my obvious prejudices/agenda....’
As a black person posting on a site called Black Net, time and time again I find your ‘obvious prejudice/agenda’ offensive. Perhaps that is the problem.
‘If you were to read what I ACTUALLY SAY’
Such a hypocrite. Scroll back to see examples of your own failings in that department. Often, I wonder whether you can read at all.
‘god help the little people of Zimbabwe if my concerns are correct.’
Oh please.
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shing
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Posted: Monday April 19th, 2004 19:49 |
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@Blackmatta
‘Maybe he argues that it's all in the past. What has happened has happened.
But what's to stop others from looking forward to the same argument? Because everything eventually becomes the past.’
Exactly. White people carry on like this all the time. Acts of theft are legitimate if it is them doing it simple. Look at the Israeli situation. Bush now talking about the 'realities on the ground.' And these are people whos land claim is biblical not practically last week.
‘Because Geoff's points do not highlight any significant departures from historical norm in Zimbabwe's development he is arguing some new precedent in national construction. His position must therefore equally represent a total rejection of the validity of his own country's route to development. But I don't hear him campaigning for redress.’
Also he fails to even acknowledge the witlessness of bleating about corruption or human rights. As if a ‘perfect’ Zimbabwe wouldn’t have endured uk/u.s censure over land reform.
What makes the u.s invade Iraq but have ‘talks’ with North Korea?
Perhaps Geoff thinks that North Korea has a better human rights record then Iraq.
What makes the u.s invade Iraq but give millions of dollars in aid to israel?
Perhaps he thinks that israel has broken less u.n resolutions than Iraq.
Sorry, that last part should be addressed to Geoff.
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BlackMatta
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Posted: Saturday April 24th, 2004 12:44 |
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Last edited on Saturday February 25th, 2006 09:10 by
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Geoff
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Posted: Sunday April 25th, 2004 01:40 |
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I am trying to wean myself off posting to this topic,as it seems my viewpoint is totally flawed.
I spoke to a Zimbabwean ex magistrate today who returned from Zimbabwe recently....I asked about the situation at home right now...his reply was basically ...".it is OK...people are suffering...there is unemployment and a shortage of cash...there are full shops but no money to buy,economically it is poor but people are surviving.....its best to stay clear of politics"
That says more about the situation than anything I can add....better not be involved in politics?.....I have thought what he might mean...I didn't get the chance to question him further.
I cannot put my thoughts and reasons down as eloquently as Shing and BlackMatta...and I know that I have a slant on the events from biased media reports...I dont know enough about my own countries history to argue it got it right or that we made all the same mistakes that other developing countries have to make.....what I do know.........Zimbabwe was a relatively wealthy self sufficient country a short time ago....it is not now.One of its largest export earners (farming) is now in ruins..It has suffered a massive brain drain.The majority of its population are politically niave....it is a one party state (in practice if not in theory...whatever Shing says)
If this is the result of a clever strategy to regain its national identity and economic self determination....and it is all on its planned course....more power to the leaders who have had the insight and will to carry through the reforms.... I will bow to the people who profess to know the ins and outs of the pains of a nation regaining its destiny.If some are the side affects and must be suffered to justify the ends... more power to the leaders... I will repeat that again and again..... and have tried to say it before........But I believe something is wrong.....
I know the Zimbabweans that I meet daily would love to return....will return...but not now....not yet.....and that is part of the wrong that is bringing the country down further....the people who can....leave.....powerless to change things from within...frustrated by the system in place....amazed that we ridicule Blair...that we are allowed to ridicule Blair...or the Queen....or place election posters in our windows openly...amazed that we listen to the stories of political persecution and grant asylum ...and support the needs of families without prejudice.Surprised that we question our politicians actions so freely....
I hope I am miles out in believing things have gone horribly wrong.......that something doesn't ring true ....
And that is my final word on the matter.....
Geoff & Caff
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Posted: Thursday April 29th, 2004 15:40 |
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@Geoff
‘Zimbabwe was a relatively wealthy self sufficient country a short time ago....’
Yes, then its president embarked on land reform and the rest is history.
‘One of its largest export earners (farming) is now in ruins..’
Really Geoff. I thought that land reform of any nature required a transition of some kind. Zimbabwe is a 3rd world country – what kind of transition comes to mind, especially when western states like u.k and u.s put a squeeze on the economy. ‘ruins’ is the sort of term beloved of whites to describe any kind of black enterprise embarked upon without white man’s ‘guiding hand’. To dismiss land reform after 5 mins as ‘ruins’ is propaganda. Yet again, not even the merest hint of anything approaching analysis from you. Why am I not surprised?
'..its best to stay clear of politics"
Hmn. A sentiment probably shared by the late David Kelly or countless Iraqis. It's good to see your hypocrisy and white man double standards remain intact.
‘I know the Zimbabweans that I meet daily would love to return....will return...but not now....not yet.....and that is part of the wrong that is bringing the country down further....’
Oh please. Give Blacknet a break Geoff. As if the exodus of able bodied brains has only JUST NOW begun in Zimbabwe. As if this is not a problem ALL 3rd world countries face. Get real Geoff. Zimbos were desperate to come to the u.k even during the ‘golden days’ you white folk still dream about. The numbers have not increased due to the ‘crisis’. The Zimbabwean community in u.k has grown steadily over the years and with such a base it is easier for Zimbabweans in Zimbabwe to find passage to the u.k. They are not coming to a territory new to Zimbabweans. Most Zimbabweans who come here PROBABLY already have relatives here. I bet that’s something you know already from your ‘research’ of anecdotal evidence.
You said;
‘I know that I have a slant on the events from biased media reports...’
and….
‘I am trying to wean myself off posting to this topic,as it seems my viewpoint is totally flawed’
And yet you still come back time and time again so desperate to ensure white man’s view is the last word. ‘I believe something is wrong.’ Yes, with you Geoff. At best - patronising, arrogant, ignorant and at worst - white supremacist.
‘And that is my final word on the matter.....’
Fingers crossed again.
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Posted: Thursday April 29th, 2004 15:42 |
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@all
just a reminderUN Commission on Human Rights concludes 60th session
http://www.chinaview.cn 2004-04-24 05:15:10
‘GENEVA, April 23 (Xinhuanet) -- The United Nations Commission on Human Rights concluded on Friday its six-week session for 2004 with the adoption of 88 resolutions, 28 decisions, and five Chairman's statements.
The 2004 session was also noteworthy for criticism by national delegations -- especially those of developing countries -- of the Commission's agenda item on the "question of the violation of human rights and fundamental freedoms in any part of the world," which annually features the tabling of resolutions on the human rights situations in specific countries.
ISLAMIC, AFRICAN AND ASIAN NATIONS, ALONG WITH CUBA, SAID REPEATEDLY THAT THE WESTERN COUNTRIES "POLITICIZED" THEIR CRITICISM OF OTHER COUNTRIES' HUMAN RIGHTS PERFORMANCES, PAID MORE ATTENTION TO CIVIL AND POLITICAL RIGHTS THAN TO ECONOMIC AND DEVELOPMENT RIGHTS.
THE WESTERN COUNTRIES WERE TRYING TO IMPOSE THEIR OWN CULTURAL STANDARDS AND GOVERNMENTAL SYSTEMS ON THE REST OF THE WORLD, AND WERE MORE INTERESTED IN CONFRONTATION THAN IN DIALOGUE AND COOPERATION IN HUMAN RIGHTS MATTERS, THEY SAID.
The Commission rejected draft resolutions on human rights situations in China, ZIMBABWE, and the Chechen Republic of the Russian Federation, in the first two cases on no-action motions.’
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Posted: Thursday April 29th, 2004 15:48 |
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