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Geoff
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Posted: Tuesday March 23rd, 2004 01:10 |
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Shing....you remarked..
Well, as we live in a white man’s world – this skewed perspective translates itself into power/AGENDA. Geoff could keep his mouth shut, safe in the knowledge that those at bbc, cnn et all wear the same white tinted spectacles as he does.
Mugabe reigns supreme in Zimbabwe... a blackmans country in a blackmans continent .....his recent drastic actions have taken no heed of the reactions of western governments.He has done what he sees best for Zimbabwe....that is fair and reasonable.You protest against my suggestion that he could have made changes by stealth long ago as not being realistic because the western governments would have acted against his promotion of african independence from western financial dominence......so what has changed now? Far greater moves by him than quiet internal laws to limit the powers of alien institutions/farmers etc.Massive upheaval to the country he wants to push foreward...of course nothing comes without growth pains.....again I will repeat what I have always said.....he is the figure head of Zimabawe....the buck stops with him.It is only the timing of such dramatic action that I feel uneasy with...simple as that.
HOW MANY ZIM FOLK DID I SAY WERE STARVING?.....Do believe I pointed at the said report and gave its figures.....if they are right or wrong I dont know....but a fact is this...If you are in employment in Zimbabwe be it teacher policeman whatever on a salary you are struggling....if you have a bit of money to play with to start and you have the go ...you are making money off the backs of the less fortunate.The people at the bottom of the pack are going hungry....no jobs ...no prospects....nothing to look foreward to.There is a food supply crisis in Zim.....it is not getting better...and the people that suffer most are the least able to help themselves.....and that is a direct result of the governments policies.....and that aint good.My interpretation was taking the report at face value...possibly not the best thing to do.....never the less....a worsening food supply crisis within Zim as we speak is getting more pressing day by day.
THE CORE ARGUMENTS?....Zimbabwe is a soveriegn state,in control of its destiny...influenced by outside forces like every other state in the world.It has now taken drastic action.....dramatic vicious draconian measures......NOW. Why now? Why has it now decided to do what it could and should have been doing over time since independence? The excuse is that there would have been a reaction from western governments.....less reaction I would suggest if prudent, just ,realistic ,actions had been taken back then...on the wave of post independence elation......or even after a 2-3-5 year cool down period...when all the Zim powers that be had accessed the way to go foreward......to wait so long seems strange thats all.....and smells a bit.....that is my core argument.
Geoff
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shing
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Posted: Tuesday March 23rd, 2004 11:50 |
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@Geoff
‘You protest against my suggestion that he could have made changes by stealth long ago as not being realistic because the western governments would have acted against his promotion of african independence from western financial dominence......so what has changed now?’
It’s still groundhog day for you innit?
Countries do not act in isolation of each other. Go back to some of the arguments made earlier on this forum not just by me but also by Fredblack about why FULL INDEPENDENCE was compromised at Lancaster Gate. Cast your feeble mind back to the days when South Africa was strong but in the hands of white apartheid regime which was happily bombing and raiding Angola, Mozambique to name a few. You think that full independence was possible without support of other African countries? I don’t. Even western superpowers had to bribe little old Turkey prior to Iraq war and get some sort of shambolic coalition of the willing. I seem to recall bases being needed in Saudi Arabia no. So, land reform is not the same as waging war some may say. But fact is, it is an economically hostile act towards western interests/white africakkana. You cannot do it without support of other African countries. I think you seriously underestimate the ‘quiet diplomacy’ of Thabo Mbeki. After 1980 independence do you really believe Mugabe or any other black African leader could’ve relied on ‘quiet diplomacy’ from white apartheid South Africa?
“a worsening food supply crisis within Zim as we speak is getting more pressing day by day.�
Do you work for the Red Cross?
Have you been on the phone with Cathy Buckle?
I maintain that your use of starving Zim folk figures was highly suspect. You FINALLY responded; ‘My interpretation was taking the report at face value...’ I don’t think so. As I said before, it was at best misinterpretation of data and at best a lie. The report said 5.5 million are facing starvation in THE SOUTHERN AFRICAN REGION. YOU said 5.5 million are facing starvation IN ZIMBABWE. If that’s what you call ‘face value’ then you really should work for the bbc if you don’t already.
What exactly is your point Geoff about money made off the backs of people?
Africa and other third world countries are at the bottom of the pack and those of us fortunate to live/work in the first world are making money off them. You honestly think that Zimbabweans were not suffering prior to land reform? You honestly think that the increased unemployment and lack of forex has nothing to do with sanctions or economic sabotage?
You know what, even if you were right and ALL Zimbabwe suffering was down to Mugabe’s land reform policy then I would say GOOD. All good things are worth fighting for. Another point to consider is that the uk and other colonial powers did not win Africa and its resources in a poker game. They stole, killed, raped and cheated for it. Does anyone (including white man you) really think that they will just hand it back?
Look how many black Africans had to die just for us to get flag independence and a name change here or there. NOW we’re talking money, the real deal; ECONOMIC independence and people (you/bbc/blair & friends) suddenly look at high inflation and unemployment as if they belong to evil worlds and evil leaders. They don’t. High inflation and unemployment are staples of countries not in control of their own resources and economy i.e the third world. What part of the world does Zimbabwe belong to Geoff?
That’s why people such as yourself and the uk govt have to introduce the human rights argument. Without it, nobody could say Zimbabwe was any worse off than a number of African countries which are donkeys years away from even attempting to control their economy (e.g land reform or indigenisation of businesses). Look at how Malawi is suffering, I’ll wager people there are at least 3 times worse off than Zimbabweans. Why is their plight not worthy of international attention? Why is Zimbabwe an out of this world case when much of Zim’s probs are standard fare throughout 3rd world?.
Wake up and smell the coffee you’re brewing. The only difference is land reform and the western fear that it might actually have long term benefits for black Africans. And any similar domino effect, such as that which happened throughout Africa as we went after our own flags, would be catastrophic for western business interests in Africa/3rd world. And current unequal trade relationship. Lack of manufacturing base in Africa etc.
‘you are making money off the backs of the less fortunate. The people at the bottom of the pack are going hungry....no jobs ...no prospects....nothing to look foreward to.’
I hear violins again…..
PRACTICALLY NO AFRICAN COUNTRY HAS A DECENT EMPLOYMENT RATE. And I’ll add to that, working for Mcburger burger inn or euroshoe is not what I call DECENT EMPLOYMENT. Our economies will not be developed when they are in the hands of foreigners. That is fact. Control of our own resources is the ONLY WAY to increase jobs and prospects long term. As opposed to Mcburgers opening a new store in Harare so 5 black employees are needed. Woo hoo! What you moan about is typical of white people who are only capable of talking ALLEVIATION and not ERADICATION to Africa’s problems. I seriously doubt your agenda has anything to do with the latter.
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shing
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Posted: Tuesday March 23rd, 2004 12:06 |
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@Geoff
Thanx for this;
‘I have the option of going to a hotel in Corfu or Magaluf or Zanzibar or Disney land why should I opt to see Victoria Falls from a country where my money may be devalued as I sleep……I am an affluent arrogant european...I make decisions on that basis. ‘
It’s a vast improvement on
‘but it would be nice to go again and enjoy the place and its people for a holiday.....I hope one day...and not too far away.’
Because unlike most of what you write, a logical thought process is clear.
‘Most conversations I have had about the present situation (and it isn't every day) paint Mugabe as a good man that has outstayed his welcome.I saw a house (more like a mansion) being built for him when I was there,it was pointed out as we travelled past...’
Is his mansion going to be buried with him? As I walk past some of the glorious and splendid buildings, monuments in London I wonder exactly how many were built with honest labour. As I peruse the crown jewels in Tower of London and witness the ornate gold finishings throughout Buckingham Palace I wonder how all this wealth was obtained. I wonder how many palaces does Zimbabwe have. I wonder if Mugabe’s mansion is not something that needs to be paid for. Is there an economic transaction there? Are builders not building and getting paid for it? You know what Cathy, I hope he builds ten mansions.
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Geoff
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Posted: Wednesday March 24th, 2004 01:34 |
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Shing......
I am rendered speechless.....well nearly.
It seems that no action at all could happen until the support was sought and rendered by other african states? And only then could measures be taken to bring the freedom of self determination for the nation?
Again..... I know not a lot about the events and the quiet diplomacy etc. that you mention...it could all be true ....it could be exactly as you say....It could also be a double bluff...a smoke screen...an over protestation...to shield less righteous goings on.You appear to say to make an omelette you must break eggs so hardships are to be expected.You say that the people that are suffering will benifit long term,and that it will break the yoke of western tyranny for the good of all africans....I hear and understand what the drift of your argument is...I got it long ago.I am sure you have more insight into the prejudices,injustices,inequalities etc.etc. that exist that have existed and that the west wants to protect so they exist for thier (our) benifits for ever.....the only caution that I put to you is that men are men are men are men.All the efforts that have been brought to bear introducing the land reforms....right now....couldn't some of the same drive been used against the Rhodies that were frittering the forex to swiss banks...used to close loopholes that made the exploitation of Zimbabweans easy for western interests...it couldn't have provoked greater reaction than the present situation...and it might have righted wrongs....evolved the freedoms that where sought.My anology for you......you visit my home....I call the shots.I can decline your offer of a cigarret and ask you nicely not to smoke in my house.....should you ignore my request.....you dont get invited again.My house my rules...simple....I dont chop off my smoker guests hands two hours into their visit.......not without saying I may just do it if he doesnt desist.Having no ashtrays makes your smoker guests uneasy....lays down some restrictions.
My other point would be that men being what they are ....black white yellow or brown ...are men...some are good... some are bad...most are simply human..a mixture....looking after their own...their families and their ego's....unless the government in Zim are all minor gods I see them as I see my politicians in the west....mostly self serving.I hope your faith in the elected leaders integrity is well founded....otherwise the people are exchanging one form of dominance for another....just changing the pigmentation of that arrogant elite........
Geoff ....imagining again....
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BlackMatta
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Posted: Wednesday March 24th, 2004 20:46 |
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Last edited on Saturday February 25th, 2006 08:44 by
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Posted: Thursday March 25th, 2004 11:34 |
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@Geoff.W.Bush who lied about the number of Zimbabweans facing starvation………
‘.....the only caution that I put to you is that men are men are men are men.All the efforts that have been brought to bear introducing the land reforms....right now....couldn't some of the same drive been used against the Rhodies that were frittering the forex to swiss banks...used to close loopholes that made the exploitation of Zimbabweans easy for western interests…’
It’s still groundhog dog for you innit? I seem to recall answering this feeble point you made donkeys posts ago.
‘It seems that no action at all could happen until the support was sought and rendered by other african states? And only then could measures be taken to bring the freedom of self determination for the nation?’
This renders you speechless?!!!! I suspect that anything which shows a black leader thinking strategically would render you speechless. You cannot conceive that it might be easier to do land reform when next door neighbour South Africa is run by a black man who has yet to publicly denounce you or economically punish you. As opposed to doing land reform when South Africa was run by people like yourself who were bombing African states at will. Knowing that regardless of when land reform is tried, there will be a negative response from u.k - which scenario presents a reduction of problems? Which scenario presents an increase in problems? In which scenario is success of land reform more likely?
‘...it couldn't have provoked greater reaction than the present situation…’
No of course not because compulsory land reform is a more effective measure than stop gap policies to curb white greed in Zimbabwe. But like I said in an earlier post to you, the Zim govt tried various policies and initiatives to challenge the white grip on the economy and each time they were met with a response. Each time the response was not white rhodies applauding and saying ‘thank you for trying to curb our priviledge'. THINK ABOUT IT.
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shing
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Posted: Thursday March 25th, 2004 11:43 |
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@Geoff.W.Bush
Mbeki a true friend of Zim
March 25th 2004
By Campion Mereki
WHEN times are hard friends are few. This is the opposite of the Zimbabwean situation.
The British have ganged up with their allies in the European Union and the United States to condemn and strangle Zimbabwe’s economy in an attempt to make us submit to their wishes. Nay, we have stood our ground. We would rather suffer, eat one meal a day and remain sovereign.
The British and their allies realised that they cannot cripple the economy permanently or effect a regime change through the sponsorship of an opposition party in Zimbabwe.
They cannot do a Yugoslavia here. Even sending a Brian Donnelly, a counter-intelligence operative that masterminded the uprising in Yugoslavia which resulted in the ouster of Slobodan Milosevic, does not work here.
Donnelly has told his masters to think about the following in their meetings: "Zimbabwe is a unique situation. I cannot succeed. Their security is unparalleled." (The British ambassador, Sir Brian Donnelly, has denied involvement in any subversive activities aimed at undermining the Zimbabwean Government).
MI6, Britain’s foreign intelligence arm, can admit that Zimbabwe’s security is impenetrable. The United States’ Central Intelligence Agency once rated our security as one of the best on the African continent.
Incensed by their failure to topple President Mugabe by all means, the British and their allies turned to South African President Thabo Mbeki.
They implored him to use South Africa’s economic muscle to cripple the Zimbabwean economy and effect a regime change.
But Mbeki stood his ground.
He has told Zimbabwe’s enemies that the situation in Zimbabwe, "if at all it is bad as you claim, it is best solved by Zimbabweans".
Mbeki has resisted both internal and external pressures and opted for "quiet diplomacy" for which he has been criticised.
The racist media, led by opposition Democratic Alliance leader (if ever he is a democrat) Tony Leon, has tried to pressure the South Africa’s ruling African National Congress government to get tough with Zimbabwe.
What do you expect from poor Tony Leon (Blair’s namesake), who is fighting for his kith and kin whose farms were acquired by the Zimbabwean Government?
Mbeki has told the British and their allies that he cannot impose sanctions on his biggest trading partner in Southern Africa.
Having seen that Mbeki has stood his ground, US President George W Bush, during a visit to South Africa in July last year, described Mbeki as his "point man" on Zimbabwe. Bush obviously said this to avoid embarrassment over his failed mission.
Mbeki is indeed a true friend of Zimbabwe. He has stood by Zimbabwe through thick and thin. He is now seeing Zimbabwe reaping the benefits of its agrarian reform.
Mbeki’s obduracy has paid off. The West is embarrassed. Mbeki is a learned man. He patently sees how the West and other detractors set an African against another African.
During the apartheid era in South Africa, the Mbekis were banished and lived in exile in Zimbabwe, among other African countries. His party, the ANC, had an office in Zimbabwe which was bombed in 1986 by the racist South African regime.
Today the same racists are telling Mbeki to get tough with Zimbabwe. Nonsense. Only yesterday Zimbabwe was telling the British to impose stiff economic and military sanctions against apartheid South Africa.
I vividly remember then British Premier Margaret Thatcher telling then Prime Minister Mugabe that "if you cut your finger, don’t come to me for a bandage".
She literally meant that if Zimbabwe imposed sanctions against South Africa, then we could not go to Britain for assistance if the sanctions hurt us.
She would snub us. Blood is indeed thicker than water! The British and other Western allies of apartheid South Africa were protecting their trade investments in the apartheid regime.
The suffering of the majority blacks did not matter to them.
The churches should pray for Mbeki’s younger brother, Moeletsi, who is in the habit of attacking the Zimbabwean Government.
How can he forget that when he was in exile the Zimbabwean Government, which supported the struggle against apartheid, gave him shelter and employment? God help his soul not to become a Judas.
Zimbabwe should continue to support Mbeki and his government for their stance on the land issue. This is the African spirit.
Behind the scenes the white racists are ganging up to topple the Mbeki government. The Boomerang Trial is a strong indicator.
The racists are still dreaming of coming back into power but they have become anachronistic.
During the apartheid era, the International Monetary Fund classified South Africa as a developed nation. It secretly received assistance, and without strings attached. Now black-ruled South Africa is a developing country. The whites in South Africa, like their counterparts in Zimbabwe, are arrogant.
They have refused the policy of reconciliation enunciated by their government. They should be taught that Africa is for Africans.
Elections in South Africa are only a few weeks away. Racist parties like the DA of Leon are contesting, hoping for a change of fortune.
No black person in his/her right senses can cast a vote on a party like the DA.
The blacks in South Africa should avoid the mistake a few Zimbabweans made in the 2000 parliamentary elections.
They voted for a party that was a shadow of white racists. I am not sounding racial, but if we allow the white man to come back through the back door and rule, we would be going back to the days of slavery.
The leopard will never change its spots. Even if you go to Western countries, no black candidate can run for a post in government and win. The reason is that anything black is regarded as being synonymous with failure.
You can only see political appointees like Baroness Amos in Britain who are meant to hoodwink people of the African race that the leopard has changed its spots. No, we are mature and educated enough not to be fooled.
The ANC should win by a wide margin in the April 14 elections to prove to the world that South Africa is for blacks.
Zimbabweans should give moral support to the ANC just as South Africa is giving all the support necessary to the land reform programme.
We wish our dear brother, Mbeki, and his party, the ANC, a landslide victory and another term in office.
Mbeki has indeed proved to be a true friend of Zimbabwe. He has personally rebuked the racist Press in his country and attacked its fixation with Zimbabwe.
Taken from Zimbabwe Herald
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Geoff
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Posted: Friday March 26th, 2004 00:44 |
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BlackMatta...
My opinion has leaned towards the fact that the west has interest in a commercial involvement in Africa,this is seen as re colonialisation.The west has huge investment in Africa and they obviously need to protect this.But I also think that to rely totally on the integrity of African ruling parties is not good....and to say that any opposition is anti advancement or anti african and to suppress generally accepted freedoms of democratic countries by limiting the press TV and public meetings etc. and to say that these measures are for the countries own long term benifit is an arrogant misuse of power. And to now say AHA but that is how the colonialists the arrogant white elite used to act only compounds the wrong....if they were wrong so is this method too.
To answer your question....Do you think the people of Zimbabwe should endorse 100% the UK stance on land reform? I dont know what that stance is....I thought the agreement was that the UK and USA was to finance the land reform program and of course stipulate the pace and content of these reforms.If as has become clear an agreement cant be reached Zimbabwe has every right to go ahead with its own reforms...as I have said so many times it is an independant soveriegn state.To say that simple legal moves to solve the inequalities within Zimbabwe would invoke western actions against Zimbabwe and then take the subsequent actions seems to be a strange argument. SO simply put....NO ...I dont think the people of Zimbabwe should endorse 100% the UK stance on land reform.But I also think it shouldn't endorse the present alternative either.....And if not why not you ask?....On both counts the stance has seen to be unfair,unreasonable,biased ,replaceing one form of dominance for another in fact.
Geoff
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Geoff
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Posted: Friday March 26th, 2004 01:25 |
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Shingaling....
we are down to name calling now? As it happens funnily enough I had a knickname "Bush" long ago because my moptop was a little unruley...hippy like innit?
Groundhog day or not..... read my previous reply to BlackMatta.....its all about timing....has it taken this long before exhausting each and every avenue? Every other loophole tightening measure been tried...for that stranglehold on the economy? How long has Mbeki been in power....believe they have a long history he and Mugabe? So why the pause.....could it be a last gasp grip on power? Expediency for a his own end?
I quote from dubious sources and get castigated.......so you quote from ....what? Mugabe's mouthpiece?....Zimbabwe Herald ....the tone is so obviously amaturishly biased to be funny....no where up to the BBC's standards...at least they are subtle....shame the other journalists didn't get their tickets and the other printing presses were "damaged" so that you could read alternative views....use your inteligence to balance arguments....but a government that knows best...better than the people it professes to represent...the people that voted it to power....aha... power most certainly is a heady drug.
oh Shing...give me a break innit?
Geoff
Last edited on Friday March 26th, 2004 01:26 by Geoff
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Posted: Sunday March 28th, 2004 16:37 |
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@Geoff.W.Bush who lied about the number of Zimbabweans facing starvation.
You just don’t get it do you. If you had any idea what bias was you would’ve stopped posting here for shame long ago. A dunderhead such as yourself seems to think that THE ONLY THING stopping African nations from development is their own poor leadership and the world being full of bad guys mixing things up. You think it has absolutely nothing to do with a concerted effort by the west to keep Africa down? Africa lost hundreds of thousands of people JUST to get flag independence and fancy new names. You think that going after the real deal – economic independence - will be met with little or no resistance from the west? You think that the west and rhodies are just sitting back waiting for us to implement the right policy here and there.
‘I quote from dubious sources and get castigated’
NO GEOFF THAT’S NOT WHAT YOU DID. At what stage of that particular argument did I criticize WHERE you got your information from? Was it not the fact that you at best misinterpreted the information and at worst lied about it?
IF you had had any decency and quoted the source as it was written, something like ‘5.5 million facing starvation in the Southern African Region’ and not said AS YOU DID; 5.5 million facing starvation in Zimbabwe then I would have had no problems with both the information and the source. I’m surprised you’re still wasting time protesting your innocence. If you were really ‘innocent’ you would’ve accepted that you misinterpreted the information OR you would’ve stood by your misinterpretation as fact. NOT this dishonorable middle ground where you totally discount the difference between 5.5 million in one country and 5.5 million spread between the entire Southern African region. Maybe you never got your GCSE Maths. And you DARE to complain about being accused of having an agenda………..
‘.......so you quote from ....what? Mugabe's mouthpiece?....Zimbabwe Herald ....the tone is so obviously amaturishly biased to be funny....’
Did you actually read the article or did you scroll down to the end and see ‘Zimbabwe Herald’ and then dismiss it out of hand?
If all you can do is criticize the source and not analyse what the source is saying then it all goes back to your non understanding of the word bias.
WHAT IS YOUR POINT ABOUT BIAS?
Is this part of the Zim Herald article untrue?
‘I vividly remember then British Premier Margaret Thatcher telling then Prime Minister Mugabe that "if you cut your finger, don’t come to me for a bandage". She literally meant that if Zimbabwe imposed sanctions against South Africa, then we could not go to Britain for assistance if the sanctions hurt us.’
Is this part of the Zim Herald article untrue?
‘Mbeki has told the British and their allies that he cannot impose sanctions on his biggest trading partner in Southern Africa.’
Is this part of the Zim Herald article untrue?
‘He has told Zimbabwe’s enemies that the situation in Zimbabwe, "if at all it is bad as you claim, it is best solved by Zimbabweans". Mbeki has resisted both internal and external pressures and opted for "quiet diplomacy" for which he has been criticised.’
DO YOU HAVE EVEN AN INKLING AS TO WHY I USED THIS ZIM HERALD ARTICLE?
Oh Ye of poor memory and intellect, it was to back up my argument;
‘You cannot conceive that it might be easier to do land reform when next door neighbour South Africa is run by a black man who has yet to publicly denounce you or economically punish you. As opposed to doing land reform when South Africa was run by people like yourself who were bombing African states at will…’
Is the article not an illustration of the fact that Mugabe is now able to rely on some support from S.Africa? You seem to think that land reform was a realistic choice after independence when Zimbabweans had lost many in the fight JUST to change Rhodesia to Zimbabwe. Your deliberate ignorance of Zimbabwe’s weakened position disgusts me. How old is Zimbabwe as a nation? Land reform is a walk in the park is it? After independence did Zimbabwe have all the finances and expertise and support from neighbouring countries to undertake such an ambitious and potentially disastrous scheme? How secure was Mugabe in his presidency? How long does it take to build an army and police, intelligence forces you can trust?
Before you start bleating about bias, use your brain and actually read and analyse the information presented before you.
‘Zimbabwe Herald ....the tone is so obviously to be funny....no where up to the BBC's standards...at least they are subtle....’
Dream on Geoff. Your idea of subtle is lying about the number of Zimbabweans facing starvation as the western media including your auntie beeb have been doing. Subtle? Or should that be ‘domination of the media marketplace – you keep hearing one view until it becomes the norm so that anything different is perceived as ‘amaturishly biased’?
Imagine – Geoff having a ‘secret’ agenda
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Geoff
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Posted: Sunday March 28th, 2004 23:38 |
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Shingaling....I said...
HOW MANY ZIM FOLK DID I SAY WERE STARVING?.....Do believe I pointed at the said report and gave its figures.....if they are right or wrong I dont know....but a fact is this...If you are in employment in Zimbabwe be it teacher policeman whatever on a salary you are struggling....if you have a bit of money to play with to start and you have the go ...you are making money off the backs of the less fortunate.The people at the bottom of the pack are going hungry....no jobs ...no prospects....nothing to look foreward to.There is a food supply crisis in Zim.....it is not getting better...and the people that suffer most are the least able to help themselves.....and that is a direct result of the governments policies.....and that aint good.My interpretation was taking the report at face value...possibly not the best thing to do.....never the less....a worsening food supply crisis within Zim as we speak is getting more pressing day by day.
Deny it if you can.................make excuses for it if you think you should...
NO GEOFF THAT’S NOT WHAT YOU DID. At what stage of that particular argument did I criticize WHERE you got your information from? Was it not the fact that you at best misinterpreted the information and at worst lied about it?
Do you want me to answer that same question again and again and again?.....critisism of ALL media is the norm in your posts....unless the journalists are ticketed/verified/passed by Zanu....but thats not how democracy/freespeech works.Control of the media/police/judiciary/youth in any way is commonly used by one party states to maintain their position....a lesson learnt form the colonialists?
I read the entire article Shing...thats how I form opinion....reading and interpreting....not something that is permited by the arrogant leaders of Zimbabwe who know better than the very people they profess to represent.The parts I thought were particularly amatuerish?
Nay, we have stood our ground. We would rather suffer, eat one meal a day and remain sovereign.
The blacks in South Africa should avoid the mistake a few Zimbabweans made in the 2000 parliamentary elections
The reason is that anything black is regarded as being synonymous with failure.
The racists are still dreaming of coming back into power but they have become anachronistic.
I am not sounding racial, but if we allow the white man to come back through the back door and rule, we would be going back to the days of slavery.
He has personally rebuked the racist Press in his country and attacked its fixation with Zimbabwe.
And my reasons why......(1)Nay ....a reason for shortages made to sound noble.(2) Mistakes made by a few Zimbabweans....in a free and fair election? (3) Turning the racist screw to your own advantage.(4) If outnumbered ...let em dream (5) Panic strategy...back to slavery...oh come on (6) Rebuked racist Press?..or free press with a differing opinion?
It all in the tone...point of view.
And to finish you have the temerity to say....wait for it....Dream on Geoff. Your idea of subtle is lying about the number of Zimbabweans facing starvation as the western media including your auntie beeb have been doing. Subtle? Or should that be ‘domination of the media marketplace – you keep hearing one view until it becomes the norm so that anything different is perceived as ‘amaturishly biased’?
I have the option to read from many and varied sources...Mugabe is afraid to let the people he strove to educate the same rights.....why?
Your reasoning concerning Mugabe's Mansion.....has Grace got building projects on each of her farms too?....to help the nation of course.Did you learn spin from the Uk Labour Parties spin masters? You learnt well.....
Geoff
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Posted: Tuesday March 30th, 2004 11:07 |
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@Geoff.W.Bush
Still in a timewarp aren’t you?
‘My interpretation was taking the report at face value…’
Face value is not the same as lying Geoff. Keep on downplaying the impact of your original statement and I will continue to challenge you. I will not tolerate propagandists posing as reasoned thinkers. If I had presented negative stats about the u.k and presented them incorrectly I’d like to think that I would be capable of either acknowledging my mistake or standing by it 100% if I believed in it. Your sob story about struggling policemen and teachers – is that your evidence that 5.5 million Zimbabweans are struggling? What do struggling cops and teachers have to do with saying that 5.5 million Zimbos are facing starvation? You sound like a backtracking u.k politician who has to use a smokescreen to deflect criticism. YOUR USE OF THE 5.5 MILLION STATS WAS WRONG. Be a man and accept it.
I know that when I read ‘5.5 million are facing starvation’ in ONE country my concern is a lot greater than 5.5 million are facing starvation in AN ENTIRE REGION. Zimbabwe has roughly 13 million people so to say that nearly half of us are facing starvation is not a throwaway comment. However 5.5 million facing starvation spread out over tens of million doesn’t have the same impact does it Geoff? And you dare to accuse me of spin.
I love my country and so I am naturally concerned that anyone who read YOUR ‘INFORMATION’ on Blacknet that day would have gone away with a false and deliberately misleading impression. I’m sure that people on Blacknet do not access it to receive the same propaganda they get from most of western media. You did not take the stats at face value Geoff. All you did was deliberately misinterpret stat and present it as fact like the beeb like the sun newspaper and your other ‘varied sources’. So varied yet owned by a handful of people…..
‘Do you want me to answer that same question again and again and again?.....critisism of ALL media is the norm in your posts....unless the journalists are ticketed/verified/passed by Zanu’
Geoff – are you dumb or just being deliberately annoying? AGAIN, I have no issue what-so-ever with where you got your information from. I am disgusted with how you deliberately misinterpreted that information and presented it as fact. I don’t give a monkeys where you get your information from but try not to tell lies. Simple, no?
BTW – something I need to do is find out whether that journalist ban is still in place in Zim. I’ve been seeing a few reports on itn and bbc which suggest the journalists are reporting from Zim. In the past they had to add the proviso that they had smuggled the pictures out etc. No such comment was made on the last three reports I’ve seen.
‘Your reasoning concerning Mugabe's Mansion.....has Grace got building projects on each of her farms too?....to help the nation of course.Did you learn spin from the Uk Labour Parties spin masters? You learnt well.....’
My reasoning concerning Mugabe’s mansion is basically to ask you ‘SO WHAT?’ Obviously your ‘sophisticated’ mind failed to detect my sarcasm.
This fixation white people have on the luxuries of black leaders makes me laugh. If Mugabe doesn’t build the mansion does that mean that Zimbabwe suddenly becomes a 1st world country overnight? Will indigenous blacks suddenly own the economy and be able to determine their own future as opposed to waiting for foreign firms to expand and create jobs or waiting for u.n handouts? YOU AND YOUR PEOPLE ARE THE MASTERS OF SPIN.
*Whose media dominates the world?
*Whose world view dominates on every issue?
I could list dozens of media promoting your pro-blair/bush agenda
How many could you list which are pro-Zimbabwe/Mugabe (whatever you want to call it). Seriously, how many articles have you seen which are not fixated on demon Mugabe and are soberly discussing pros and cons of land reform by say comparing Zim situation with how India did it, by getting agricultural and economic experts to actually consider REAL impacts and consequences? As opposed to SPIN.
Your people are very good at trying to whip black folk into a frenzy of agitation over corruption and human rights without even once focusing on how YOUR OWN corruption, human rights abuses and double standards and self interest are contributing to the situation.
IF Mugabe building mansions and driving a fancy car was the direct cause of our poor Zim teachers and policemen struggling then fair enough – criticise away. However, when you realise that corruption and human rights abuses are the first thing your people harp on about when you want to replace a third world leader with a puppet then it becomes clear that focusing on mansions and cars serves no greater purpose than gossip mongering.
‘…..it is better a man be a killer than a gossip mongerer. Gossip mongering poisons society.’
I think its time Our Man in Africa came home.
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Posted: Tuesday March 30th, 2004 22:35 |
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Shing.....
I have spent some time looking through this thread to find where I stated that 5 million Zimbabweans were starving....I think this is what you are complaining repeatedly about..................
Shing.....A quick look at Amnesty International web site tells a different story to the one you catagorically state.A visit to Food & Agricultural Organisation of the United Nations mentions food shortages rather than starvation and food aid needed for 5.5 million people.....Why ban foriegn media from the country? Why the government closure of independent newspapers?
So it seems I said food shortages rather than starvation.....and it would appear I inferred it was Zimabwe alone that was suffering.....for that inference I apologise whole heartedly......your repeated plea for me to retract at most an ambigious statistic has given you many column inches here.........and you complain when I say "the lady protests too much"......it could be seen as a gambit/ploy misinterpretation to gain the high ground.
The building of mansions for the political elite is not the reason Zimbabwe is in crisis,but it is an indication of the attitude of that elite.....Nero fiddled while Rome burned comes to mind.It is at least insensitive,and in a democratic country could be a vote looser....but oh yea.......in a democratic country....shucks....
Some links about the Media situation......shame really.
http://www.sabcnews.com/africa/southern_africa/0,2172,73502,00.html
or the accreditation issue.....good reasons Im sure........
http://www.sabcnews.com/africa/southern_africa/0,2172,73652,00.html
Or an editorial comment.......
http://allafrica.com/stories/200403260145.html
A Google trawl.....apparently the internet is monitored in Zimbabwe also....but that may just be western propaganda.
Geoff
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Posted: Thursday April 1st, 2004 09:30 |
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@Geoff
'......and it would appear I inferred it was Zimabwe alone that was suffering.....'
Yes. There is no official figure for how many in Zim are suffering. The source said 5.5 million for the Southern African region. I hope you now see the difference between what YOU said and what the source said because there is a BIG difference.
and yes, comments like ‘the lady protests too much’ do make it seem as if you were claiming the moral high ground for yourself as white people often do. Also, the ‘ambiguity’ (if that’s what it was) of your starvation/facing starvation statistic added to the negative picture. The following comment also does not help…..
‘A Google trawl.....apparently the internet is monitored in Zimbabwe also....but that may just be western propaganda.’
And again the word ‘agenda’ comes to mind.
‘……apparently the internet is monitored in Zimbabwe also…….’
As opposed to everywhere else in the world hmn Geoff? I wonder who is better at monitoring the internet. Who has the best/most technicians etc? Oh well, I’m a proud Zimbo, I’m sure our boys give the FBI and MI5 a run for their money……..
Perhaps you’re now thinking ‘jeez, she jumps on everything I say….’ Just to let you know Geoff, in case you didn’t – this is a website called Blacknet not Whitenet. I’m not going to ignore the usual muckracking and easy to make derogative comments I find everyday in western media. As these comments are rarely effectively challenged they perpetuate and you find everybody –black and white repeating lies/propaganda as fact.
‘The building of mansions for the political elite is not the reason Zimbabwe is in crisis…’
Ohhhhhhkay, so stick to the facts i.e
• Plausible reasons/ideas/explanations why Zimbabwe is in crisis.
• Is crisis because of land reform only?
• Will land reform be a success?
• What impact have western sanctions had on Zimbabwe?
• Are bush/blair using propaganda against Zim pretty much as western media did against Ghana and first African countries to go for independence?
• How will western media respond to domino effect of other African countries following Zimbabwe model; Uganda, S.Africa, Namimbia to name a few?
• And any other ‘relevant’ issues you can think of. I’m sure you can think of some which don’t include the typical white world response to black defiance. Or am I asking for too much?
Moral judgements about the character or ‘attitude’ of black leaders are little more than irrelevant. Besides, what is a white man from a country full of palaces built on slavery doing criticising a black leader from a country full of -how many palaces?
Be careful you don’t get vertigo up there on your moral high ground.
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Posted: Friday April 2nd, 2004 00:01 |
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Shing ..............
let me answer you again as honestly as I can,point by point.
Plausible reasons/ideas/explanations why Zimbabwe is in crisis.
• Is crisis because of land reform only? Definately not
• Will land reform be a success? Only time will tell....but I have said I hope it is.
• What impact have western sanctions had on Zimbabwe?I should imagine less than you infer....remembering how long sanctions against S/Africa took to bite earlier.And Zimbabwe has a rich ally next door to lessen the more dramatic effects.
• Are bush/blair using propaganda against Zim pretty much as western media did against Ghana and first African countries to go for independence? I would expect western commercial interests are painting the situation worse than it is ,Zimbabwe is an independent country already.Propaganda can be used both ways too.It is the use of anti western feeling to cover unsavoury happenings and blanketing it all as the only way to rid the beastly colonials that I cant get my head around.....sorry.
• How will western media respond to domino effect of other African countries following Zimbabwe model; Uganda, S.Africa, Namimbia to name a few? In the same manner I would expect,wouldn't you? Especially if they handle it in the same way....I hope they learn from the errors made by Zimbabwe.
• And any other ‘relevant’ issues you can think of. I’m sure you can think of some which don’t include the typical white world response to black defiance. Or am I asking for too much? Why is it spoken of as "Black defiance"?....you still dont get my drift here Shing.....Land reform..... .good.....ways and means.....bad.You seem to keep on keeping on about white versus black...I dont see it as that....its the haves against the have nots,regardless.The problem is that in general it is the whites that have....no doubt about that.How that is dealt with shows the maturity/integrity of the people in power.I know the work ethic of Zimbabweans is good...so no lazy african jibes from me....the country was a viable concern at independance.I believe 22 years have passed since then....laws have been passed where hand signs are illegal.....Chinga...There is a massive brain drain...the youth and educated have fled in droves.....why? ....is my question.... Because the quality of life has detiorated to such an extent they feel unable to reside in their beloved motherland.Is it entirely due to sanctions? NO WAY ...Why have those in power allowed themselves to be in a position to have that imposition placed on the country.Bold imaginative patriotic moves to build the economy,laws protecting forex leakage,building from the base that was there at independance,rather than what appears to be a last ditch stand to gain public favour,by using the most obviously targetable wealthy elite as scapegoats.To use the descendants and later arrivals with no connection to the crimes commited against the country historically,and who in the main part were contributing mightyly to the wealth and well being of that country seems to me to be petty/misguided.To say the only way is to raise a peoples movement against the scapegoat farmers when multinational governmental financial institutions are the main target of the Soveriegn government of Zimbabwe just seems to go for the popular easy option.To say moves couldn't be made because of western reaction...that good Zim housekeeping laws,that could be internationally recognised as such would have caused less/more propaganda than the present events...seems to be an excuse....sorry.If the recent events are to exact revenge for the crimes of the western world against the population of africa historically....say so....if it is to gain financial control of your resources....then without doubt...without any shadow of a doubt ....the course of action is ill concieved,and bound to cause a counter reaction.Your phrase "typical white world response to black defiance"forgets Zimbabwe is independant....defiance....no ....Zimbabwean self determination....yes.You call the shots internally....make them constructive....patriotically sound for all ....good house keeping for the whole country...and you gain the respect of the world community.Raise a growing army of Veterans....who should be diminishing over twenty two years....bribe them ....tinker with the judiciary...the media...and the world asks questions......
See you soon Geoff
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Posted: Saturday April 3rd, 2004 21:39 |
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Last edited on Saturday February 25th, 2006 08:49 by
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Posted: Sunday April 4th, 2004 00:33 |
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BlackMatta...........
Thanks for that explaination....you drop into a topic and enlighten me greatly. I have re-read the post several times( I am slow) and it makes a lot of sense.To paraphrase or make another equation,its like keeping an addict on a low dosage to maintain their dependancy? As I have said before,I have made a huge adjustment in my outlook on the events reported in the "crisis" that occur in africa and the rest o | | | |
