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Ijexa
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Posted: Monday March 8th, 2004 03:18 |
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@All
Hmmmmmmm...?
Let's detail some of these mutual "benefits" which this thing is describing...
"...Britain declares state of emergency in colony of Kenya. British forces conduct human rights atrocities, establish Nazi-style concentration camps and ‘resettle’ hundreds of thousands of people in ‘protected villages’. Around 150,000 Africans die..."
But these were chicken feed in comparision... with the wholesale slaughtering and butchery of the indigenous peoples of Zimbabwe in soccessive revolts during the period from 1890 -1922, absolutely no information is available...
Similiarly... there is absolutely no information available on the number of Africans killed by France and Belgium in their subsequent operations within the Congo... but there is a record of approximately 22,000 Africans killed in the building of the Congo-Océan Railroad... and this is just one railroad...
Or in German East Africa with the Maji-Maji Revolt (1905-07)... with an estimated 250-300,000 Africans killed...
There's much... much more... but the archives of the French and Belgium governments are closed and they have to date refused to acknowledge or release any information relating to the deaths of Africans whilst under colonial occupation... despite operating similiar systems of forced labour...
The British also instituted similiar policies in Zimbabwe... and again... the precise details of precisely how many Africans were worked to death or massacred as the country was occupied and British settlers were first allotted farms of 3,000 acres each... an amount that was subsequently increased to 6,000 per family... which resulted in the eviction of the indigenous population to barren and desolate "reservations" which were in real terms concentration camps...
So... perhaps it... should come back and give us some more examples of these "mutual" benefits derived from European brutalisation of Africa and Africans...
Ijexa
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shing
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Posted: Monday March 8th, 2004 11:51 |
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@Geoff
Well seeing as you went back on your word; ‘MY FINAL WORD....thank god I hear............’ Here I am again. I just cannot let some of your…..comments pass unnoticed.
I especially couldn’t resist answering a question you asked Fredblack;
‘I know you see me as having an agenda,as being some sort of racist agitator....and to be honest that is what concerns me most.What is it you believe places me in that catagory....as I see myself differently.’
Okay, here’s what I think. First let me use some of your own words;
‘but also remember the British role in the abolition of slavery...its role in S/Africa's past...and the UK government's stand on Zimbabwe's development in regard to UDI......’
Why does this make me think of that boy in Iraq who was famous for getting his limbs blown off and then flown to u.k to have false limbs? Was anyone else less than amused at the fact that this boy was orphaned and made a multiple amputee by brits and u.s and then he is rescued by these same people? He said thank you publicly as I recall but was I the only one thinking that other words were more appropriate?
Why should anyone be thanking you or even considering the brit role in abolition of slavery if you were at the forefront of this practice? Why do white people want to take credit for correcting wrongs that they were responsible for or actively promoted in the first place? And when they finally come to their senses and ‘give’ us our freedom we’re supposed to say thank you? It makes me laugh. If I burn down your house and murder your family and then the next day my son turns up with money to pay for fire damage – will you be so keen to say thank you?
Everyone wants to discuss Mugabe’s ‘real’ motive for land reform almost as if to say that he should not be allowed to do it if his motives are not 100% pure. I doubt the motives of the whites who eventually repealed slavery were based on 100% pure motives. In all cases of black freedom following struggle against white oppressor, it is the blacks who have determined their own freedom. It is black people who teach whites about democracy and human rights because when we remain silent and give no trouble to our massa abuses remain. It is largely our resistance that has forced change. You can add all the flowery white liberals prepared to protest on the street but they are not the total picture. And their ‘role’ in our emancipation certainly does not require overlooking the behaviour of the white race in its entirety.
‘but history (my history) tells me we were also at the forefront of reforms for equality...’
Yes your history. Your AGENDA.
I wont comment much on this;
‘we should watch "our children" with the paternalistic eye....guiding....helping...concerned.Our African "dominions" are our "responsibility" like a concerned parent sending their child into the world....a duty...an obligation...’
because with your own words you answer your own question to Fredblack; ‘What is it you believe places me in that catagory....as I see myself differently.’
Your agenda is clear. Whether it is unconscious or conscious is irrelevant.
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shing
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Posted: Monday March 8th, 2004 11:53 |
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@Benti
Africa is once again colonized. It need to be libirated from its own local agents who are serving the intrest of Europe. We have 52 Mugabes in Africa. All should go! 52 Mugabes! Phew, that’s a lot of research you’ve done to help you reach your blanket condemnation of African politics.
@Geoff
Please READ your own comments at least. You did EQUATE Mugabe with Hitler. To even use the example of Hitler is meant to do what? Make us think that the two situations and the two leaders are the exact opposite of each other? No, you mentioned Hitler (twice) to raise similarities otherwise maybe Ghandi or Mother Teresa would have been appropriate for you.
1) ‘....Hitler raised Germany from destitution built roads built industry gave hope...and slaughtered untold numbers...he was a hero and one of the biggest b**tards the world has ever seen.......... ‘
2) but what if we could have stopped Hitler before his power got out of hand? A stronger Germany without the Sh*t that followed........
So what was the purpose of these comments hmnn? Were you not equating SOMETHING about the Zim ‘crisis’ to Hitler? Please tell me what similarity you were warning us about?
‘I am not related to this Cathy Buckle...but what if I was?’
Guilt by association and all that. Have you seen any of her African Tears drivel nonsense? That is what I was referring to. Just like henry (sellout) olonga’s brother had to come out and distance himself. He had to make it clear that he was not riding some imperialist bandwagon. Why? Because being a relation, people assume you’re all in the same camp ideologically.
And furthermore;
"Iwe shamwari" is an exclamation...."Hey you friend" or "oh come on mate"...
Do I need shona lessons from you? Why is it that Elvis Presley or Eminem come to mind? My meaning in my original statement is clear. You know exactly what I was saying and the point I was making. And going back to that Panorama documentary, there was absolutely nothing in there which amounted to systematic torture ordered from up high. If anything, they ‘uncovered’ some tales of abuse which they tried to patch together as proof of an orchestrated campaign. Also by using old footage of war vets breaking into farms and isolated shots of young Zimbabweans – this amounted to a youth militia terrorising all and sundry? Please. Again I ask, what numbers were they talking about? They gave a figure of 6 camps. How many are they alleging were tortured or raped? Are we talking Nazi concentration camp or (as I suspect) Zim citizens falling for sterling and flight to 1st world country. Let me repeat something Inshala said;
‘The greatest danger facing this historical Black economic emancipation is the fellow Zimbabwean black man who is lured by the silver dollar to mobilise against land reform in its entirety and translate the whole struggle into one of human rights and democratic expression or lack of it. This is the guise under which the western media now successfully rally public support although a few among us, cannot fail to see the truth through the thin veil....’
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Fredblack
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Posted: Monday March 8th, 2004 14:48 |
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@EXCUSE ME FOLKS: THE BRITISH ROLE IN THE ABOLITION OF SLAVERY. Thanks for that Shing because our white father writes so much nonsense hard for me to take it all in.
Listen, that is the biggest myth and insult ever. How another great white man William Willberforce led the abolition of slavery and the white man through higher moral disposition thought this was wrong. BULLsh*t The romantic image of the noble savage Oludah Equiano and that lovely story of him petitioning Willberforce and his cronies. A testiment to the superiority and moral character of the white man in his liberal conscience.
This is the sh*t regretably they teach our children in white schools today and is probably the average childs understanding of their own history.
Even in Caribbean schools they teach this sh*t and celebrate aboltion day, because the system was designed by white colonials and their converts and politically supported by the children and off spring of slave owners.
For example in St Lucia, they have got rid of cronie of the European/American who was given a knighthood by the queen for his years of service to them selling off the country for nex to nothing after 32 years in power and rigging every election from day one. The new incumbent who is a massive improvement, is from a slave owning family, who own a massive estate producing sugar in the Rosseau Vallley. Both of them have as much black in their skin colour as the pink souls of my feet.
So the official history is clearly related to the strucuture of colional/neo colonial politics and protecting the status quo from the same African majority as it always has been.
Money, power and empire is not about liberal conscience. The white man would never ever give up the Caribbean and anyone who is familiar with any island will know that. The white man wants our land, and its amazing productive capacity, minerals, sulphates, bauxite, oil and other resources. He wants our women and the superior quality and pace of life which the Caribbean facilitates.
Anybody has observed white people in the Caribbean even without a days education, can see those people are not leaving anywhere voluntarily. As long as they can feel and have the privileges which they think is their manifest destiny and god given right. They are the natural owners of the Caribbean and big men in the house, according to this thinking.
But as my papa use to say "two bulls cannnot live in one pen". Whites were driven out of our countries, they did not simply walk away and are now kept there by their half caste children and offspring and colonial puppets by continuing a structure of privelige which is slightly modified by historic in origins.
The Haitian revolution sparked the end of the slave regime after whites realised the blood lust that was taking place down there of genicidal proportions. Simply put, when they realised what the African would do to them.
Moreover Republicanism was rife in the French Caribbean which fused with the indigenous African war against the whites, in concert with the Caribs, and hence why resistance in that region was far more stiffer,[which in itself misleading given the wars all across the region and in every island] plus the nature of the topgraphy and smaller slave plantations, where we outnumbered them heavily.. These factors were deadly.
In Dominica they literally wiped out the white population and they were getting ready to abandon the island. When they tried to talk truce with the Africans, who agreed to meet the white Governor and his peeeps, who then ambushed them and cut their heads off, put them on poles to send a message about what kind of truce we would enter. In other words a la Haiti style, a fight to the bitter end and last man standing.
In Jamaica, they could not control the African and anybody who has read the accounts of Governor and military man Willam Trelawney will see his contemparenous thoughts in black and white. He begged his men to do nothing to antagonise the African male, not to intefer with their women etc, as they could not control the situation .
Contrary to the notions of white men having our women how they liked, while Africa men stood up and watched or hummed loudly to pretend they could not here. Slavery in the Caribbean was not slavery in the US. Interfering with the wrong woman could cause a riot and definitely retribution, especially if it was a man's queen or a highly rated, respected, or sought after woman. Some brother would have to volunteer to take on that one way mission.
Trelawny wrote to England begging to withdraw or send massive numbers of new troops. They could not send new troops because we had then tied down in every region or part of the Caribbean. They also had to fight and out manouvre the French and other European countries who would aid Africans as part of their divide and rule strategy. Our leaders were playing off one against the other, particularly in my region where we had several different whites in control fighting each other eg Dutch French, Spanish and English.
Fire was one of the most devastating weapons used particularly in Jamaica, where burning "cane piece" became a mantra. As soon as whites managed to restore order and rebuild, "fire pon them" to quote Capleton and our people set fire to it. They were like cats chasing their tails.
Every Caribbean island was in a state of uproar, even islands like Antigua, which is so small and flat there is no way you can conceive serious military resistance. But the Africans out there were ruthless using suicidal tactics, as in Barbados contrary to image, where Africans fought the white man to a stand still. Even little islands like St Kitts, St Vincient etc experience blood baths.
As the great Caribbean historian Eric Williams said, the Caribbean was a region of fire and death. Read the works of Richard Hart great Jamaican scholar, or Leonard Honey- Church from Dominica or CLR James. Who are these whites like Geoff fooling? I heard these stories drinking milk from my mother's breast. My mother viewed the Christian church as evil and never put foot in one and prefered her tradional African based beliefs. Her people had contempt for whites in any shape or form.
Finally to round off. David Wedderburn a Jamaican radical who was hung and beheaded in England was one of the greatest abolitionist, who told Willberforce about his arse. Wedderburn was a leader of the working class movement in this country which sought to over throw the ruling class, in order to weaken colonialism/imperialism. He was one of the leaders of the famous Peterloo riots/cum massacre.
In one of his famous speeches where he was the first to refer to events in the French Caribbean, unknown to the average white. Barbados, St Kitts, Antigua and Jamaica were the only islands known to whites and then only a few.
Davidson advised the white man to withdraw from the Caribbean and to end slavery for their own good, as events in the French Caribbean and English speaking regions clearly showed they were no longer in control and would run from there or be buried in mass graves. The choice was theirs. He told the white man that the worse thing they could do was to aggrvate the African because once roused and the killing starts, as events in Haiti and other places showed, it will not stop until there is not one white person left.
These are the sub texts underlying Willberforces promenience and why he is given credit and as Shig excellently observed is how white supermacy works. They cause the problem and then award a Noble peace prize to one of their own for preacing peace and reconciliation. Bullsh*t.
Like Ian Smith in Rhodesia, when he said the black man will never ever rule not for a thousand years in thier own country, that was the attitude and now it is as if we are stupid to believe these very same people led the process of peace and transition to African rule. No the fear of war and loss of their life styles and material interests did it. The fear of ZANLA did it.
ZANLA, as I said to Shing was not strong enough to beat the White Rhodies and their white South Afrian and Portugues friends who would rally to their support. And at the same time deal with Joshua Nkomo and his tricks.But what they did have was the capacity to destroy the country in an ongoing war with no decisive outcome. In other words white livestyles and material interests were seriously threatened.
The white man gives us nothing, only tries to manouvre when his arse is against the wall and try to credit himself and people with bringing about change. Bullsh*t.
Off topic slightly. This is why the issue of white settlers in black countries is a very very serious one. Everywhite person say in the Caribbean actually displaces or takes away far more than they contribute and they take not only from the indigenous in terms of jobs, opportunties etc, but take away from the opportunties from the children of the same indigenous people here.
We have a higher unemployment and under employment rate, because they can pick up themselves and go to our countries and refuse to leave and still laud it over our people and famiies. When they are ready when Africans make it uncomfortable for them in South Africa, Zimbabwe etc, they can pour back here and go straight into professional jobs at the higher levels right over the heads of Africans here.
But slowly and surely Caribbean governments are learning hard lesssons which bright people would never have to experience. First being they cannot ever trust white America, UK etc. They have given us nothing for playing their games and do not blink to go back on trading and other agreements leaving thousands of our people unemployed etc.
Hence why the slow realisation that the money which keeps many islands going actually comes from us, the people who own signficant portions of particular islands are here in the UK. They have realised that one returnee whether it is to visit family or do business brings in about four times the amount than the average white on their two week break.
One of the downside for the status quo and a pro for people like us, is that one of the consequences of targetting people such as myself, is that we actually radicalise indirectly or directly. Returnees like my folks of which there is a large number, are the most patriotic, critical and hostile to the white pressence in their country and their children are worse. Those from the UK have a even bigger impact given the depth of racism here.
This is strenghening the indigenous oppostion to what I describe above and slowly but surely altering the mix and strategic factors in play. Every African who returns home to the Caribbean, for holiday, business or whatever; especially in the smaller islands are changing the balance or variables. Moreover,every single individual has a potential for bringing four more into the picture.
So the next ten years is going to be very very interesting both in the Caribbean and in Africa and Zimbawe in particular.
Fred
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BlackMatta
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Posted: Monday March 8th, 2004 21:32 |
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Last edited on Saturday February 25th, 2006 08:40 by
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Fredblack
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Posted: Monday March 8th, 2004 22:47 |
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@Blackmatta. Hmm. Sure you don't already know the answers cos my spirit tells me different. But would be interesting what others have to say.
On the top of my head:If I knew the answer to these questions...
1. Are there any western democracies that were established without a period of internal conflict and associated oppression?
TO MY KNOWLEDGE MOST WESTERN SOCIETIES UNDERWENT SERIOUS CONFLICT TO ESTABLISH DEMOCRACIES.
2. Is there any reason to believe that the progress of Zimbabwe and other African nations is fundamentally different and requires global intervention?
NOPE BUT WESTERN GOVERNMENTS COLONIAL RELATIONSHIP TENDS TO COLOUR AND DENIES NATURAL DUE PROCESS
3. Among nations, is there any precedent of a world player owing its status to global intervention.
NOT TO MY KNOWLDEDGE. Japan and Germany were reconstructed by world powers, but are not super powers. Neither has a serious military capacity and stripped by the Allies, so that scrubs them out from the get go..
...I would better be able to judge the situation in Zimbabwe. Could one of you historians oblige?
And while you are at it...
4. What is the original meaning of the term "Third World"?
The term third world was first mentioned by Chairman Mao in his first and I think only visit to the UN where he divided the world between the West, Soviet Union and previously non aligned previously colonial countries eg India, P*kistan, Africa etc.
Fred
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Geoff
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Posted: Tuesday March 9th, 2004 00:15 |
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Blackmatta......
"Just because I am paranoic doesn't mean they are not out to get me"
With all honesty I talk as I think....no agenda...I am not that clever unfortunatley...you flatter me...thanks.
Geoff
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Geoff
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Posted: Tuesday March 9th, 2004 00:33 |
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Point of order Shing.......
It was you that first mentioned Hitler....I echoed his good start and the way it all ended up....as an illustration of how a good guy sometimes gets it wrong.
The massacres of the Ndebele peoples are always used to paint Mugabe as some kind of Hitler figure..........Shing Feb 12th
Geoff
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Geoff
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Posted: Tuesday March 9th, 2004 00:43 |
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FredBlack ....Ijexa....and all...its late......... had a hard day...am feeling chastened by your responses...will get back to you.
Geoff
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Bredder Tukoma
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Posted: Tuesday March 9th, 2004 00:46 |
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@Geoff
No tit for tat here you are not worthy and as wiser heads than me have said your agenda is clear, although thanks for stimulating an excellent discourse on Carribean history and atrocities in Africa. Unfortunately Geoff genocide is not specially European but if its one thing Euros are damn consistent at it. Very consistent in fact.In fact I reiterate its a RULE!
Anywhere where there is a sizable Euro poplulation outside of Europe then genocide was involved.
Caribbean= genocidal behaviour/Australia.... /New Zealand/ America/South America/ Canada/ /the point...
Europeans do not assimilate with non European people. They kill them in large numbers. Where is this assimilation going on in Europe where the far right have power in former eastern block countries/ what interracial relationships.../ so assimilation is fine as long as there are none/little blacks left/ no assimilation definatley in economic/educational/justice/political spheres/ (core areas of life Geoff). I go with the enviromental theory that explains Euro cultures consistent behaviour towards 'cultural others' but others I'm sure can elaborate further.
Insult to my fellow black brothers in arms. NEVER. Only benefits available to me here are the abundance of tools I can pick up to cultivate the land of my forefathers. For a strong Africa will be beneficial for blacks in the UK whether theyre grateful or not. But like others this country is my playground. To know the European mind is to know where home can only be. Oh yeah nearly forgot a French man may not have 'stimulating' conversation but he will be able to communicate with a fellow Euro alot easier than a Kamba/Shona. French, Spanish, English, German all based off latin Geoff. Dont make me teach you your own history.
@all
Excellent info/its like washing brain in clear water in here...Blackmatta/ Funny how we never hear of Second World, dem try relegate we 2 divisons in one season..
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shing
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Posted: Tuesday March 9th, 2004 17:06 |
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@Fredblack
‘They cause the problem and then award a Noble peace prize to one of their own for preacing peace and reconciliation. Bullsh*t.’
Yes!!!! F.Wdeklerk the ex south African president received a peace prize with Nelson Mandela. What an insult?!! How are you receiving a prize for ‘being instrumental’ in returning a country to something approaching normality? It’s disgraceful that it took so long and in other circumstances Mandela should have refused the medal if it meant sharing a platform with deklerk. What nonsense!
White people/Geoff’s skewed perspective would say, yes he was promoting peace – give him the prize. If a person is already starting from this point of view then it is clear that pretty much EVERYTHING he/she says is tainted by this. Geoff may not see himself as having an agenda. Well, at the very least he is totally ignorant of the black/African perspective. So what? Well, as we live in a white man’s world – this skewed perspective translates itself into power/AGENDA. Geoff could keep his mouth shut, safe in the knowledge that those at bbc, cnn et all wear the same white tinted spectacles as he does.
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shing
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Posted: Tuesday March 9th, 2004 17:12 |
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@BlackMatta
‘2.Is there any reason to believe that the progress of Zimbabwe and other African nations is fundamentally different and requires global intervention?’
Who judges when intervention is required? And what does this intervention really comprise of?
You go to a lawyer. He doesn’t just help you gratis does he? He charges you a fee. There is a price to pay. When it comes to global domination by the west – they can claim to be intervening based on WMD, mad dictators, torture, human rights abuse etc. WHATEVER their reason for intervening or ‘helping’ there is always a price to pay. I say, that price is too high for developing countries. Geoff makes me laugh. He said this;
‘we should watch "our children" with the paternalistic eye....guiding....helping...concerned.Our African "dominions" are our "responsibility" like a concerned parent sending their child into the world....a duty...an obligation...’
The only truth in this is that the paternalism translates into arrogance every time.
Can you imagine a parent advising their child to take out a credit card which they know they will never be able to pay off cos the interest rate is extortionate?
Can you imagine a parent who knows that their child is being bullied and so invites this bully to spend some time in child’s room beating the sh*t out of the child?
Can you imagine a parent who moans about giving their child £1.50 pocket money when the reality is that the child actually pays for ALL the grocery in the house amounting to £100?
Can you imagine a parent who upon finding out their child is doing a degree pays some thugs to burn down the university?
Can you imagine a parent who had killed all the friends of their child and regularly beaten their child and kept them locked up, then after coming to their senses they refuse to apologise?
‘paternalistic eye’ – 
‘concerned parent! –
I hope you catch my drift. The ‘help’ they give us is a sham. It’s not help at all if the result is that I am now worse off than before – how the f**k have you helped me? And if I can prove that you deliberately set out to further your own interest and not mine then we cannot use the word ‘help’ at all. So they use the word ‘intervention’ but the implication is that there is a desperate need for them to do so to stop our suffering etc – i.e they claim to be ‘helping’ us.
Their goal is to maintain their dominance. A strong Africa; politically, economically, militarily is not a goal for any western leader. Once you take this common sense idea on board then everything they say and do begins to make sense.
They will always judge intervention as an absolute must when the 3rd world country is run by a leader who is not following pro-western policies. Often they will tell lies and spread deliberately misleading information about that country to garner support amongst their whites and on international stage. An example is the current misconception being freely reported by much of western media and Geoff that 5-7 million Zimbabweans are either starving or facing starvation. The source document is a u.n food development report which clearly mentions a similar figure but for THE ENTIRE SOUTHERN AFRICAN REGION not ONE COUNTRY! Who's to say whether it is not actually Malawi or Zambia who have more skeletal peeps than Zim. I don’t know but I don’t see them on bbc 6 o’clock crap.
Misinterpretation of data is common – Iraq & sexed up dossiers anyone? There is nothing new about this practice. The question is, if we cannot even have faith in their ability to tell the truth or interpret data accurately or have accurate intelligence then why should we take them seriously when they say – ‘we must intervene – regime change now etc’.
I also say that even IF there were ever a situation where they were not lying or exaggerating or exercising deliberate western bias then we should still not take them seriously. Like I said to Geoff about the panorama secret camps ‘documentary’, if it’s 100% true then so what?!! Does this ‘evidence’ justify going into a country and setting back the development of black Africans? So, even if they have 100% no lies/no exaggeration proof of human rights abuses and no democracy etc then I still say F**k Off! They are not ‘helping’ us. The price for what they call help/intervention is too high for 3rd world countries.
BlackMatta, if they were ‘helping’ us for real – Africa would be a super power. But don’t be so naïve Shing. We live in the real world. Why should rich countries help poor countries and get nothing in return? No, they’re not helping us. If you look at practices such as financing and arming opposition parties they are not even providing us with a service which we must pay for – i.e lawyer example – they are active agents in our instability and destruction. Helping someone to destroy themselves is not ‘help’ and certainly not the kind of ‘intervention’ that any black person should applaud.
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Fredblack
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Posted: Tuesday March 9th, 2004 20:31 |
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@Shing said:
"Can you imagine a parent advising their child to take out a credit card which they know they will never be able to pay off cos the interest rate is extortionate?
Can you imagine a parent who knows that their child is being bullied and so invites this bully to spend some time in child’s room beating the sh*t out of the child?
Can you imagine a parent who moans about giving their child £1.50 pocket money when the reality is that the child actually pays for ALL the grocery in the house amounting to £100?
Can you imagine a parent who upon finding out their child is doing a degree pays some thugs to burn down the university? Can you imagine a parent who had killed all the friends of their child and regularly beaten their child and kept them locked up, then after coming to their senses they refuse to apologise?"
And then the clincher that had me cracking:
" BlackMatta, if they were ‘helping’ us for real – Africa would be a super power".
Classic. Great line. Being loved to death by white people...
Shing can you drop lyrics like that in real life?. Because if you can you are a natural public speaker. Had me gagging especially your list of rhetorical questions.
Could imagine that dropping right in a full house. Definitely get the party started with those kind of lyrics people would be rocking ...
Good work sis
Fred
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Fredblack
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Posted: Wednesday March 10th, 2004 01:02 |
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@All have you all seen the New Plot Against Africa thread by Life Chemist? It's about 20 mercenaries caught on their way to Zimbabwe. Deja vou me thinks. So predictable really.
So what has Geoff and his people have to say now?. You don't involve mercenaries in a popular war against a tryant. You involve "solidiers of fortune" against popular governments etc where mass backing is not forthcoming.
As old as time and elequently noted by non other than Machievelli in "The Prince". So who is Geoff and his apologists fooling...?.About Mugabe is a tryrant, and you have to pay hungry and unprincipled foreigners to fight to over throw him. Must think black people fool for true.
Fred
The day must come, as Dada outlined in his thread about African culture et al. The time must come when whe hear sh*t like this that we dispatch our people to back and defend the sovereignty of democratically elected leaders. For every 20 they send we send 60.
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shing
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Posted: Wednesday March 10th, 2004 09:33 |
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@Geoff
Point of order 
Get a brain please and stop being such a badly disguised mogadon.
CRITICAL ANALYSIS NOT GOOGLE SEARCH!.
So because I first mentioned Hitler that means….
What was my charge against you? I said that you equated Mugabe with Hitler i.e you drew some similarities. Did I say that you were the first person on this thread to use the name Hitler? Are you not capable of processing information?
‘The massacres of the Ndebele peoples are always used to paint Mugabe as some kind of Hitler figure..........’Shing Feb 12th
That’s my quote yeah but have I used Hitler in the same way as you did – to equate him with Mugabe? HAVE I? READ and LEARN.
Let me give you an example just so that this hopefully penetrates your skull;
Person 1 says
Tony Blair could be turning into a control freak. Remember Margaret Thatcher?
Person 2 says
People are always comparing Tony Blair with Margaret Thatcher?
Now Massa, tell me which person is equating Blair with Thatcher? Which person is DESCRIBING that some people equate Blair with Thatcher? DUH!!!!
If you cannot see the difference between my use of Hitler and your use of Hitler then it goes beyond what you said; ‘.I am not that clever unfortunatley’.
If you cannot see the difference then you’re a dumb ass.
BTW
Thanx for FINALLY admitting that you did in fact equate Mugabe with Hitler;
‘I echoed his good start and the way it all ended up....as an illustration of how a good guy sometimes gets it wrong.’
Like drawing blood from a stone. All those u.s blacks lobbying for slavery apology and reparation – Now I know how they feel. Bloody hell.
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Geoff
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Posted: Thursday March 11th, 2004 00:10 |
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To All....
My silence has been deafening...I have been beaten down.
Yesterday I contemplated suicide on the realisation that the whole white race is involved in the suppression of any advancement by people of colour. All 1st world governments are involved,fearful of looseing everything they have gained since the dawning of time...whites taught the devil his trade.... they are evil personified......all wisdom ,truth,the very essence of goodness eminates from Africa and its indigenous peoples whereever they reside.
But seriously....I am sure there is a lot of truth in what you say.....some of it with good reasons...some of it excuses....I cannot believe the white world is preoccupied with suppressing the black world,not as much as the black world is preoccupied with suspecting everything the white world does is anti black.While saying that there is anti on both sides,extremes of opinions,they are all without doubt wrong.
By the nature of this forum it draws the extremes ...the white supremicists,and black power exponents.I am a passerby involved in niether extreme....but the depth of knowledge and the eloquence and passion that it is put across (I believe) silences the moderates who visit here.I cannot answer to the crimes of my forebears,I neither excuse nor condone them just accept they happened and try to learn from them.........
Most extremes moderate with time and the middle ground becomes the norm...may that time come soon.......But I would say that.....for various reasons ...wouldn't I?
Geoff
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BlackMatta
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Posted: Thursday March 11th, 2004 21:18 |
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Last edited on Saturday February 25th, 2006 08:40 by
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shing
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Posted: Friday March 12th, 2004 11:48 |
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@Guff
‘But seriously....I am sure there is a lot of truth in what you say.....some of it with good reasons...some of it excuses.... I cannot believe the white world is preoccupied with suppressing the black world,not as much as the black world is preoccupied with suspecting everything the white world does is anti black.’
Excuses? - I speak for myself when I say that I have NEVER CLAIMED THAT ALL OF AFRICAS PROBLEMS ARE DOWN TO THE WHITE MAN OR HIS GOVERNMENTS.
Repeating something I said before, I have my criticisms of Mugabe and land reform BUT I DO NOT FEEL THAT THIS IS THE FORUM OR THE TIME OR PLACE TO BE DISCUSSING THEM. Why? To avoid being swept up in current u.k policy to remove Mugabe from power. I become another black person condemning my own govt thus adding to blair & bush 'evidence' that Mugabe is a tyrant etc. I wasn’t born yesterday Geoff. They need their black 'victims' to complain more than disgruntled white farmers. The fact that it's the disgruntled white farmer who is financing the black 'victim' is lost on most people such as yourself.
To use an analogy, if my son is lazy and performing badly at school I will try to chastise him, discipline him etc. If my son is also being bullied at school by staff and pupils and there is open racism etc at the school then PERHAPS I WILL DEAL WITH THAT FIRST. At meetings with school governors I am not going to stand up and criticise my son for being lazy when I know that the school are adding to his problems. I am going to deal with those negative forces at the school which are impacting on my son’s performance. Whether or not I believe my son’s problems are 50% laziness and 50% bullying – I will still deal with those external forces in the public arena.
The arena, time and place for criticising African leaders and policies etc is not every time a western leader wishes to practice regime change in an African country. This point would be academic if there was a strong African media presence.
You say;
‘I cannot believe the white world is preoccupied with suppressing the black world,’ –
*I suppose slavery was about the white world advancing the black world.
*I suppose a white minority owning the best land is advancing the black world.
*I suppose financing and arming opposition movements in African countries is advancing the black world.
You can’t believe there is a preoccupation yet the evidence is readily available. Whether they are preoccupied or obsessed doing it reluctantly – the practice of suppressing the black world is pervasive and ongoing.
‘By the nature of this forum it draws the extremes ...the white supremicists,and black power exponents.’
'Black power exponents' are extremists only because the middle ground moderate opinion you cherish is currently overpopulated by white supremacists. You have a very short memory – typical for a white man.
Slavery was mainstream
Apartheid was mainstream
A minority of whites owning the best land in Africa was/is mainstream
It wasn’t white people who removed these practices from the mainstream. It was resistance and discourse by black people. Your response is so predicatable. Today, you say, this forum attracts extremists – black power exponents. Tomorrow when there is justice for Africa and black power is no longer an oxymoron – then we will be mainstream. It is not just the passing of time which changes extreme to moderate. There's an awful lot of dissent, resistance etc which goes on during that time. You think that white people just naturally, smoothly, gracefully give power/resources they took by force back to black people? If white people are able to give countries and resources back to blacks so freely then WHY DID THEY TAKE THEM BY FORCE IN THE FIRST PLACE? Maybe we should've just flipped coins.
What made the white world stop calling Nelson Mandela a terrorist?
Yesterday a terrorist, today a freedom fighter, tomorrow in government.
‘Most extremes moderate with time and the middle ground becomes the norm...may that time come soon.......’
To suggest that views commonly shared on BlackNet will gradually change over time is somewhat disingenuous. Whatever individual posters do is irrelevant. So long as we live in a world where the white world actively suppresses the black world there will always be a need for outlets such as BlackNet.
I repeat BlackMatta’s question;
‘So let us know exactly which of your behaviours, beliefs and values have been chastened because it doesn't show in your last post... ... or should we just continue not taking you at face value?’
It seems to me you concede nothing in any of your posts. The minute you are challenged decisively you move on to something else to avoid dealing with it. I feel this is quite important considering it was you who, for example, introduced that u.n food report as your source document and failed to interpret it correctly. You neither acknowledge nor challenge in response. Instead you often present side track arguments. Instead we get your latest 'effort' of extremes and moderates guff.
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Posted: Friday March 12th, 2004 12:01 |
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@Fredblack
Sorry, almost missed that.
Thanx.
I have a mistrust of public speakers - 'men of the people' etc so I doubt I would ever put myself in that position deliberately. Personally I believe that fiction/drama is the best way of conveying big ideas to the masses. People are moved and ideologies are challenged at the same time. Public speakers can do a lot of damage if they become 'moderate' due to bribery or just over time. Like some strident feminists who've mellowed over the years. What of the people who swallowed every line and now feel betrayed? What if the public speaker has a different agenda to the people and is leading them to......? Public speakers often incur the wrath of authorities if they're considered to be too 'extremist' as Geoff would say. That black muslim cleric who got sentenced for 8 years recently comes to mind. I'm currently too busy for jail or deportation. There are other forms of protest. Ghandi said 'Be the Change you wish to see in the world.' Well, yeah, that's me. Perhaps a cop out but yeah.....
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Fredblack
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Posted: Friday March 12th, 2004 12:37 |
