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shing
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Posted: Friday February 13th, 2004 14:35 |
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@Geoff
BTW
Your anecdote gave me a good laugh. Thank you. I suppose you might like it if Zim went back to its ‘golden days’ when certain streets were only for the whites. You would then avoid such a traumatic situation.
@ anyone
Does anyone wonder why the Zim govt would even feel a need to clamp down on opposition to Mugabe? For several years ‘opposition’ to Mugabe has not been of the democratic nature you would expect in the UK. Did Michael Howard ever talk about marching on No.10 Downing Street and forcibly removing Blair from power? Did Michael Howard fall victim to a ‘set up’ where he discussed assassinating Tony Blair? Did members of the Conservatives talk about having people ready for ‘mass actions’? Any security crisis in Zimbabwe has come from the behaviour of MDC. Any brief glance at African recent history will tell you that when an opposition party is financed by western power then anything from assassination to coup attempt to civil war will follow. That is the security threat to Zimbabwe. The sickest thing is that MDC do not even represent popular feeling or a majority in Zimbabwe. If they had the people behind them for real then they would not even require one penny from Whitehall. That is fact. When people have had enough they take action. There are recent examples from Europe if any of you were thinking that the French revolution was a long time ago.
@ Kunjufu
sorry, I couldn’t find your new thread.
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Fredblack
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Posted: Friday February 13th, 2004 14:45 |
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@African. My brother and forgive me if I assume incorrectly your sex. I read what you said about Amin and much of what you say is not new. In fact, many of my elders and seniors who went to the 6 Pan African Congress in Tanzania were wined and dined by Amin, not to long after he had ejected Asians from his country. Not an act, that I find disfavour with, nor the rationale layed out by Amin which was very clear.
These people have and had no loyalty to the country, were essentially parastic on the African majority and had been though out colonialism, contributed little in terms of tax, or national service and kept their British passport along with money safely under their beds, just in case.
However, Idi Amin Dada was a tool in every sense of the Brtish and his career in the Kings East African Regiment is a clear illustration of his role in murdering and suppressing Africans fighting for their liberation ,of which he was proud of. Amin was a proud zealot of the British military and crystalised in his Sandhurst training.
Amins role in the suppression and destruction of the Kenyan Land and Freedom Movement, commonly referred to as Mau Mau, is well documented, as was the torture, betrayal and double dealing which lead the the capture of its leader the great Dedan Kimanthi. Amin is the enemy of progressive and radical Africans, of that there can be no doubt.
We can cite numerous figures in history who have done things which are admirable. Stalin for one, did great things, big thing and because of him the Soviet Union survived its most gravest challenges. Saddamm Hussaine, had big ambiton in terms of the industrial/scientific and educational and military spheres, and played the west like suckers. But we have to understand these people in the long and the round, to realise whether we speak of Stalin, Hussaine or Amin, as thugs, murders and men characterised by little principle, save maintaining their own power by inflicted callous violence and torture to the innocent and weak.
Because of this we have to hail President Julius Nyerere who for his many life long consistently progressive actions, got it damn right when he ordered Tanzanian forces to enter Uganda to arrest, or take out Amin and to stop once and for all his destruction of Ugandan society and peoples.
Fred
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Fredblack
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Posted: Friday February 13th, 2004 16:03 |
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 Shing, thank you for that my sister. It is so obvious that it doesn't really need repeating; that you can only ever know what is going on in a country, properly, unless you are in that region; and have the intellectual and other resources to make sense of it.
But I am reassured, as I argue above that we don't need first hand detaied knowledge to make sense of general patterns, if not almost rules of leadership, political/organisational behaviour of African Caribbean leaders to make sense of what is taking place in Zimbabwe. So your details put a smile on my face, because most of what you said is more or less what I have guessed or would have deduced based on what we all know.
Just touch on some key points you made.
1. Mugabe has not suddenly jumped on the issue of land, as it was of many key issues which the Government has been working on. Establishing the democratic instutions of the country still a work in progress took over 10 years of concerted effort at every level. So that one factor alone ,never mind the other aspects of Lancester House, of which land reform was but one, albeit important explains much.
Any new African, or Caribbean government established in those circumstances, have a million demands from the first day of office, in an external environment characterised by hostile and more powerful forces seeking to undermine it from every angle. We saw the same with Nkrumah, Castro, the Manley socialist government in Jamaica, who had the CIA and the US foreign Department committed to destoying Manley by any means necessary.
2. As I mentioned in my last post, we have to go back to the origins of the idea of the single party state in the modern era, and the role and ideas of Lenin and why he thought correctly this was the only way forward. Crudely put, Lenin realised that the preconditions for western style democracies of more stable and mature countries simply did not apply in particular parts of the world, given their circumstances. Under those conditions to talk, or infer, other forms of democracy was tantamount to suicide; and handing the nation over to its enemies, who would exploit the situation and re impose themselves.
In Russia, the majority were poor ,could not afford to finance independent parties of any significance,which meant faciliating the hegemony of 'bourgoise' parties, who would overturn the revolution; and impose the old order even more tougher, given its purported democratic/reformist features ,which had more legitimacy than the old rule of the Tsars. Foreign monies would finance parties to promote their agendas.
So Mugabe being in power for 20 years, is not an automatic issue of concern if the aforementioned is taken into consideration. For example, I forget how long President Julius Nyerre was in power for, but it was about if not longer than 20 years. But Nyerre was a popular and much loved man for all the right reasons....
3. The paucity of the Zimbawe government's communications strategies, as mentioned before is a common African/Caribbean governmental problem and its root is to be found in the human resources problem that most leaders are faced with from day one.
African/Caribbean leaders have more problems facing them from day one in office, and less resources and structures/mechanisms at their disposal. In fact this is a common charactersitic of black organisational life, whether in Britian or the US for that matter.
A leader will have a range of extremly challenging and complex problems facing them, but only a small number of people who are readily at the appropriate level of whatever you want to call it, who can handle or provide leadership in these areas. I can say from here, that communicating with the outside world was not nor should it have been an immediate pressing priority for Mugabe, or most leaders taking power. They have to deal with the immediate things to hand eg developing and improving political relations with adversaries in creating national harmony etc..
So leaders do not have a crystal ball, or an infinite number of organisational geniuses hanging around just in case, as these people have more than enough work to do. It is a truism that black men/women have to work much harder than their white counterparts and nowhere is this more evident than in the world of governance and leadership.
This is where people who are from these African and Caribbean countries living abroad have an important responsiblity if not duty to contribute to the human resources of their country.
Let me part with an example which demonstrates the human resource pressure which Caribbean/African leaders are faced with. I know a brother from my island who is a very senior civil servant. Highly educated, organisationally and administratively gifted and absolutely committed to his nations and regions development. He was arrested in Grenada, like many of my country men resisting the US invasion.
If you speak to his staff, or those who know him; and they tell you about the type of hours this brother puts in, and indirectly his staff, the man's brilliance and competence, and you compare it to his measley salary and conditions etc, most of us from the West would laugh.
Because of the brother's ability,[including his capacity to work across disciplines and policy areas] his Prime Minister, and Ministers, rely on him; and of course his work load is four times that of his peers. The reasons for this situation is simple to understand. But how many people does the Prime Minister, have around and under him of this ability and committment?
So as I have said elsehwere, the problems facing Prime Minister Mugabe, are not unique to him, or Zimbabwe;neither are the tactics used to attempt to constrain or descredit him. We have been here plenty times before and I trust have gained some wisdom from this collective experience.
As I said, I support Mugabe, albeit not uncritically as that is not in the gift of any man; and would hope that any one with a disengenous agenda, will not feel they can find a resting place on this Forum to spread their foolishness.
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Fredblack
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Posted: Friday February 13th, 2004 16:16 |
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Shing about the MDC. If my scanner was hooked up, I would post one of the documents given to me. It details the various attempts to assassinate Mugabe and other aspects of their POSTIVE ACTION CAMPAIGN, as they call it, some of which you mentioned.
But one story shared with us by a sister, who I think is the minister for Education or something[will have to check]. Dr something. She told us that in Parliament the MDC rep is accompanied every day by a white man, who sits there taking notes of every word said. When particular issues arise, which their black boy obvioulsy had not been briefed on, or anticipated coming up ,he would unashamadley look at the white man, for directions ,in the form of a nod etc.
People were stunned to hear that these whites did not even hide the fact that they ran the MDC, except of course when presenting themselves to the western world.
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Friday February 13th, 2004 17:36 |
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Shing: thank you for your indepth and informative responses..
1. On the points raised in the first paragraph..although I acknowledge your partial acceptance of my argument.. for it's not enough.. I'm therefore going remark my point on this issue again..
The goings on in Zimbabwe has in my view very serious ramifications for all Africans everywhere but especially in neighbouring Azania and definately in the UK.. Whatever happens in Zimbabwe can and will affect me whether I'm Zimbabwean or not.. Therefore it is NOT fair to say I or anyone else not of imersed in Zimbabwean micro politics cannot or should not comment regardless of the depth of their overall knowledge..that is NOT reasonable..
2. The points you raised on the one part state issue or on point and I cannot disagree with you at all.. Especially as you quite rightly point out.. Tha this is a Class struggle not a race struggle.. I would have gone on to develop my point along this line had you not beaten me to the punch.. also picking up on your brilliant anaylsis of tryng to mount a credible opposition to the Zanu PF.. I have to bring you right back to the obvious point..Why with this seemingly autocratic position could he not have forced this agenda sooner?
That said I entirely concede your point that those African leaders seeking to Build African rather than Europe or America.. Have been undermined, or assassinated, like Lumumba, Nkrumah and many others too many to,list.. I also changing tack did say in my previous post to you, that I agree Henry olonga and the MDC are Black Neo colonialist Apologists..so we are absolutely agreed on this point..
3. On the issue of Land reform we are again both agreed on the history that influenced this event and the triggers for the current rush for land reform ie the war veterans occupation of white farms.. It also appears that you slightly agree that Mubage was being opportunistic in his tactic of utilising the issue of land reform to remain in power..
When I talked about 'sudden' conversion to this issue naturally i did not mean that he suddenly woke to this idea, that is obviously silly.. However it is clear that his motives for making this a central issue of reelection and his arguement for staying in power..rests not on what best for the people but is clearly a case of self preservation..
This impression is further reinforced when you comment that the criteria for redistrbution appears to be first come first served in terms of reclaiming land.. Also if as you now point out that there is not information infrastructure in place to communicate Mugabe's intentions and that tight state controls are in place then it seems to me further evidence of an ill concieved and ill judged doctrine that appears to be controlling Mugabe rather than Mugabe controling it..
Either way I'm clear on this subject if I believed regardless of methodology that Mugabe's intension where for the people I would support him..regardless of whether he was squeeky clean or not.. The fact is Shing I have not seen, heard, or read a single fact that leads me to believe that Mugabe is idealogically sound.. or that he is a Principled African leader in the mould of Nkrumah, Tuore, Lamumba etc etc.... everything I see or hear leads me to the belief that he is no better than Bush or Blair..especially when he says to Blair that he should keep to the Uk and leave him to HIS Zimbabwe or word to that effect..thast had overtones of Colonialism of the worse kind..
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Geoff
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Posted: Saturday February 14th, 2004 21:17 |
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To all...
I am reluctant to respond here after the various arguments to my comments...most are based on the fact that I am white.Cant argue with that,if the whole topic is due to whiteness as opposed to blackness I would disappear into the ether....but I would suggest it is far from that,and the race topic is a smokescreen.
Geoff
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Geoff
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Posted: Saturday February 14th, 2004 22:01 |
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Shing......
My anecdote was meant to illustrate the difference in my expectations from a police force in a democratic country and the acceptance of my wife when faced by an unreasonable demand....at no time did I suggest he couldnt request some trade with me or call that request truamatic or ask for return to colonial times....and I believe you push your response too far.
We might all have been approached in the UK by ladies "selling" lucky heather...and declined their offer...and if they pressure you,you could reasonably hail the nearest policeman and be spared any further embarrasment.Or perhaps the fact that I was white you would want to preclude me from the protection of the police....even that I could handle...but my wife's acceptance that she had no recourse to a non political unbiased just policeforce while walking in her national capital.......felt very strange.Now you will reply concerning the racist police in the UK....and I am defeated.....but think on....In broad daylight midday in Oxford street you a black Zimbabwean is harrased by a street trader....would you feel free to hail a white bobby without the fear of a beating in some cell?
Its not about the UK anyway ...its about the acceptance of the status quo by Zimbabwean citizens,caught up in a situation were you are for the government or anti zimbabwean anti african pro european inlfuence pro colonialism etc.etc.Basically to put it simply its not black and white figuratively,but many shades of grey.
Geoff
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LadyDay
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Posted: Sunday February 15th, 2004 11:04 |
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the only reason why this makes headlines is because it shows black people in positions of power doing what the white people did back then. if its brutal so was the way the land was taken.
of course there are deeper things to consider. race is not a smoke screen. if it is then teh white uk media need to stop portraying the white farmers as defensless. (now who should be accused of playing the race card).
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Posted: Sunday February 15th, 2004 11:27 |
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LadyDay made an very interesting observation which black people need to recognise, and it is documented very well in world history, that nobody but nobody plays the race card, so to speak more than whites.
This is why when we use these misleading terminology and labels we do ourselves a serious misjusitce. As I said, I have never known a black man and woman to get a job sought by others ,that was not purported to be the product of race-[according to whites]. Even where stern and very unfriendly Professors with no liberal inclinations, or anti racist credentials give black students top marks, it is deemed to be due to other considerations.
I was in several Caribbean islands recently and you can see how the white skin of privillege operates and the transformation which white people go throw when they leaveGatwick and land in say Barbados. The demeanour changes ,they begin to talk much more louder and use the term English in almost every possible derivate humanly possible, to make black people know who they are and what they expect.
There is no country on the planet, where my skin colour as a black man confers privilege in that manner and if anything quite the reverse. And LadyDay is spot on to highlight something too many forget, in certain parts of the world the white man lives and lived like a king amongst the African black majority and Zimbabwe is one of the last bastions of unconstrained white privilege and power ,and much of their crocodile tears is directly related to that fear of loss.
So very good point LadyDay and something black people need to keep in mind about the white pathology and use of the 'race card'......
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Posted: Sunday February 15th, 2004 11:56 |
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FredBlack and Ladyday........
I hope you have not read my term "its not just black and white figuritively" as meaning skin colour,racial differences.I meant the problem has many facets, depths,its not as simple as 2 plus 2 equals 4.
Geoff
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shing
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Posted: Sunday February 15th, 2004 13:24 |
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@Kunjufu
‘This impression is further reinforced when you comment that the criteria for redistrbution appears to be first come first served in terms of reclaiming land..’
I was being sarcastic because I couldn’t believe that anyone would suggest a govt (any govt) would just give land to anyone without a selection process. Are you suggesting that they give land to people who don’t apply for it? This is about Zim’s future development not charity. There is an element of needing to attract the keenest minds to such an enterprise. Are you suggesting that the govt just gives land to the ‘needy’ irrespective of whether they can do anything productive with it or not. Applicants for land must state income and show ability to be productive dependent on the size and type of land they are applying for. Zim is still a third world country not a softened welfare state like u.k. There must be some element of ‘survival of the fittest’ to ensure development.
‘Also if as you now point out that there is not information infrastructure in place to communicate Mugabe's intentions and that tight state controls are in place then it seems to me…’
I didn’t say there was no information. I said that there could be more. Of course there could be more. Look at the UK for example and the fact that millions of monies in benefits go unclaimed every year. The Govt would say that they inform people but that some just don’t get the message, don’t drop by the job shop and pick up a leaflet etc. There can always be MORE information. In this case of land reform, those who wanted land were quick to find out how to go about applying for it.
‘further evidence of an ill concieved and ill judged doctrine that appears to be controlling Mugabe rather than Mugabe controling it..’
That remains to be seen.
‘I have not seen, heard, or read a single fact that leads me to believe that Mugabe is idealogically sound.. or that he is a Principled African leader in the mould of Nkrumah, Tuore, Lamumba’
I’m sure when those guys were alive their heroism and principles were undisputed worldwide.
I hate to defend politicians on a personal basis as I mistrust all of them anyway. But I do feel that your comments on Mugabe are telling. I find it funny that because you have not read or heard anything positive this means that…….. Judging from your earlier post about Zim I wonder where on earth you expected to read or see this positive stuff; the bbc?. Then you repeat something that the bbc saw fit to broadcast recently which paints Mugabe the same as Bush or Blair in your eyes. Hmm
Mugabe was given a hero’s welcome when he visited Harlem USA in 2000. Perhaps those members of the US civil rights movement saw or heard something you didn’t.
@Geoff
‘My anecdote was meant to illustrate the difference in my expectations from a police force in a democratic country and the acceptance of my wife when faced by an unreasonable demand....at no time did I suggest he couldnt request some trade with me or call that request truamatic or ask for return to colonial times…’
And the point of your anecdote was…..? It certainly goes no way towards responding to ANYTHING anyone has said on this forum about land reform, do the whites deserve it etc? I can think of no other motive (intentional or otherwise) for bringing up such a ridiculous anecdote other than as an expression of bitterness at the turning of the worm in African countries such as Zimbabwe. I suggest that some white folk (perhaps you, perhaps not you) would like to see a return to colonial times because that’s when you had ALL the power in Africa. In those ‘good old days’ would such a traumatic incident as the one you describe ever have happened? Hell no! This is not a wild accusation or even unreasonable comment. This is just common sense. Your anecdote goes on the pile of stories about how bad or corrupt the Zim police have got now that the country is in ‘crisis’. I could give you names of people; black or white who have been killed in police custody in the u.k. Whether I feel confident or not to ask for a policeman’s help is not the issue. In fact it is people such as yourself who encourage a negative perception of the Zim police thus eroding public confidence. Do I have to remind you that this same lack of confidence also exists in ‘democratic’ countries such as the u.k or u.s where there are areas where some people DO NOT call the police when they are in trouble. So to sum up, I actually think your anecdote was irrelevant and yes it put a smile on my face. Stick to the matter being discussed, land and do the whites deserve it etc. Surely you are in a wonderful position to give us the white perspective.
‘....and I believe you push your response too far.’
I’m sorry if YOU feel that way but that’s the way I feel.
BTW
I think that you should keep posting on any topic you feel like. ‘Content of character’ and all that.
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shing
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Posted: Sunday February 15th, 2004 16:30 |
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@Geoff
Do you work for the BBC. Nice interpretation of data from the UN.
‘A visit to Food & Agricultural Organisation of the United Nations mentions food shortages rather than starvation and food aid needed for 5.5 million people....’
I went to aforementioned site and found;
‘…..more than 6.5 million people will require food assistance to sustain them until the next harvest in April 2004…..
A look at the calendar shows us to be in Feb 2004 and I struggle to see scenes of starvation or ‘facing starvation’ in Zim.
‘Over 6.5 million people in the region are relying upon urgent assistance for their immediate survival…..’
EXACTLY! ‘in the region’. Not Zimbabwe. So it’s rather strange to use figure of 5.5 mil for Zimbabwe alone when UN clearly mentions a REGION not one country. What I’ve seen in Zimbabwe and my own instincts tell me that Zimbabwe shouldn’t even be put on the list.
The page also goes on to list those countries and ‘targeted beneficiaries’. Zim’s section says;
*550 000 poor vulnerable households in communal and peri-urban areas
*up to 300 000 households with livestock-based livelihoods
That is not 5.5 million Geoff is it?
On the same page there is a section listing many African countries under the title of ‘Appeals’ Most telling is the fact that Zimbabwe does not have a section on its own. Zim is lumped together with other Southern African countries; Lesotho, Malawi, Mozambique, Swaziland, Zambia. This tells me how it’s possible for them to come up with figures in the millions of people ‘facing starvation’. It doesn’t explain, however, the deliberate mis representation of data by people such as yourself and western media like the bbc.
People, check it out for yourselves….
http://www.fao.org/reliefoperations/appeals2004/soafrica_en.html
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Fredblack
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Posted: Sunday February 15th, 2004 16:57 |
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Shing. My sister your life energy is vital. Don't waste it.
Alost every objection our friend Geoff has come up, you have systematically taken apart. And it is clear to me his motives are very very suspect and not in good faith.
His basic premise is anti Mugabe and desired outcome is for black people here to agree with him, that Mugabe is a bad man, akin to Saddamm Hussaine[which completely desrcedited anything he thus had to say with me], and white Zimbabweans and the MDC the victims of something....
So no matter how much data you swamp him with it will make little difference. You disagreement with Kunjufu is one of information, not one of good or bad faith. Thus fundamentally different.
Fred
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Sunday February 15th, 2004 17:08 |
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shing wrote:
I was being sarcastic because I couldn’t believe that anyone would suggest a govt (any govt) would just give land to anyone without a selection process. Are you suggesting that they give land to people who don’t apply for it? This is about Zim’s future development not charity. There is an element of needing to attract the keenest minds to such an enterprise. Are you suggesting that the govt just gives land to the ‘needy’ irrespective of whether they can do anything productive with it or not. Applicants for land must state income and show ability to be productive dependent on the size and type of land they are applying for. Zim is still a third world country not a softened welfare state like u.k. There must be some element of ‘survival of the fittest’ to ensure development.
Shing: with the greatest of respects, nothing I have seen or heard and I'm talking here from Zimbabweans here.. Leads me to the view that Mugabe's Land grab is part of a greater strategic Goverment policy..If that is indeed the case it is a well hidden secret.. However all the indications that I have heard to date strongly point to the fact that Mugabe's supporters are the chief beneficiaries of this policy.. Is this right or wrong.. If as I suspect this is the case, how can Mugave's actions now be considered any different to that of Cecil Rhodes in the last century, who did very much the same thing..I'm struggling here so help me out?
I didn’t say there was no information. I said that there could be more. Of course there could be more. Look at the UK for example and the fact that millions of monies in benefits go unclaimed every year. The Govt would say that they inform people but that some just don’t get the message, don’t drop by the job shop and pick up a leaflet etc. There can always be MORE information. In this case of land reform, those who wanted land were quick to find out how to go about applying for it.
Again you make a valid point about effectiveness and in your comparisons to the Uk policy on claiming benefits.. However I would say the implications are somewhat different between the two comparisons.. I would also go on to say that i could careless about UK benefits, but I do care about how Mugab'e failure to get his version of the truth out, will affect Zimbabweans and Africans in the disapporra..so regardless of what others are doing, it is critical for me to know what Mugabe 's doing which doesn't appear to be much..
Finally I have to say that idealogically I'm not convinced that mugabe is a principled African leader.. As opposed to a neo colonalist who has merely fallen out with his political and economical pay masters..regardless of my souces of information.. Mugabe for me is contaminated by his inconsistency, and his lack of principled actions..
Last edited on Sunday February 15th, 2004 18:22 by Kunjufu
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Posted: Sunday February 15th, 2004 18:18 |
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Kunjufu. Before Shing answers. Can I make a comment on one point you made. Because it is a classic oxymoron, if I got the term correct.
The notion that a leader is giving access and opportunties or advantages to its own supporters, is one of the oldest red herrings in the book. And I don't have to be in Zimbabwe to answer this one; because it has been used so often in different context.
First, Mugabe supporters are also citizens, leading party officials; and even members of his own family or relatives. Does that suggest they do not have rights or access?. And does this suggest that in some cases they should not have preferential treatment?.
Leadership is an art more so than science and based on very delicate and balanced decisions and priorities and not the cold applications of unbending rule of principles.
Let me give you a scenario. This is the mid 1980's and If there it was thereotically feasible for our people to seize power in this country and this was achieved. The leadership of the movement at various levels is looking to reward its hardest and most committed members, those who have sacrificed the most for the cause. Those people like yourself who march up and down in rain, give your time and money in all kinds of ways....
At a particular point when leadership is deciding how to punish their enemies, and reward their loyal solidiers. People like me and you ,my brother are going to receive phone calls; and given opportunties and access, positions, secondments and a whole range of different things.
That is rational and logical, and not an indication of corruption etc. Of course some may opportunistically choose to define or characterise it as such. But is someone suggesting realistically, that many of those who served the nation at greatest cost ,should not be rewarded?
That is foolhardy. And just because a party member happens to be related by blood that he or she should not be rewarded when it is their objective work and commitment which is being rewarded? So if my brother was a proven Commander of our Security Forces, he should not be rewarded, simply because an accident of history that we are blood; when his performance in his role is beyond question or repproach...?
Some people may choose because of their circumstances or judgement etc not to take what they are entitled to eg Malcolm X who rejected material benefits which he was entitled to. But it does not make people corrupt if they make other decisions. I personally agree with Malcolm's stance, but can't diss others where they have a legitimate right.
It is a basic law in effect that a leader has to reward and maintain some of his key leaders and trusted people after a process of transition, because how else is he going to rule and govern, if not by maintaining key aspects of his machinary. And this has nothing to do with Mugabe and a problem that every leader faces.
This however is a far cry from job for the boys or for the incompetent, or to suggest an elite are living in luxury which is rarely the case except in clearly and fundamentally corrupt organisations. People on the outside may well say look at Fred and Kunjufu get this and that. HOw we get it ,eg whether we applied via legitimate processes like everybody else, or were given special dispension, they are not in the position to know and usually don't care, because they want for themselves and are not in the mood for listening.
I have demanded preferential treatment for my people and to be honest, did not give a damn who it upset and got my way. As a team head, I think about the needs of my people first. They work harder and sacrifice the most and take greatest risks. So consequently they do not wait in long queues.
As upset as other people were the leaderships job was to sort out the discontent etc and not my concern ,that is their job not mine. However, such preferential treatment was not allowed for team leaders. Because being a team leader is a priveleged position and high status in its own right. But making sure our troops were treated properly, was mandatory.
So under similar circumstances, yes you could call it Mugabe being a poltician, but its also good human resource managament.
All leadership involves politics of one type or another. And it could be argued that Mugabe was politically keeping his people and war vetrands, in particular, on board. But brother so would you, or I, because you simply could never ever betray the people who died for you. You would betray every thing you ever stood, for if Mugabe to send armed forces or the police to physically engage your vetrands and those who served you is madness itself. Rememember Mugabe is and was their Commander in Chief.
I have never had the experience at the level of people like Mugabe, or the Bishops of this world. But been close enough to know, that I would never ever want that type of responsiblity, that of being an African/Caribbean leader of a country attempting to emerge under those circumstances. Because it is a classic case of being damned if you do and damned if you don't
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Geoff
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Posted: Sunday February 15th, 2004 18:33 |
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Fredblack wrote:
His basic premise is anti Mugabe and desired outcome is for black people here to agree with him, that Mugabe is a bad man, akin to Saddamm Hussaine[which completely desrcedited anything he thus had to say with me], and white Zimbabweans and the MDC the victims of something....
I cannot recall any comments about Saddam Hussien, MDC, or white Zimbabweans from myself,and my basic premise is that Mugabe WAS a great leader...but he has outstayed his welcome....not from my own opinion...but from the events that have and are happening in his country,from most black Zimbabweans that I have talked to about it.
Shing.....there is a food shortage,I did stress that...but the shortages wont miraculously get better.Fields are not being planted,it is a natural result of the land reform program.I am not commenting on white farmers versus black farmers ,just the fact that the land is not being utilised by anyone at all.There are reasons for this and it will get better but now the country is in crisis.
http://www.wfp.org/newsroom/in_depth/Africa/sa_zimbabwe020705.htm
Now I will comment on what I think are the main problems......
Mugabe was elected as Prime minister since that he has changed his post to President which is not just a name change.The country has no free media to talk of and foriegn media are banned.The Land reforms were moving slowly due to shortages of funding from the UK government, non the less money shortages were forgotten to fund a war in the Congo...wouldn't that have been better spent internally? Or is there an ulterior motive to enter a war in a mineral rich country?The war veterans the CIO and the youth movements the army and the police are all arms of Government.The legislature that should define laws are under constant pressure to rubber stamp Dictats.The veterans are transported in government vehicals...the movement is driven by government ...not lead.There is regime of fear of retribution for speaking out....laws passed to curb political rallies...if rumour is correct food is now a tool as well if you have no ZANU pf card you dont get the maize.Rumour again says that ministers were first in the queue for farms,along with Grace and other family members....
If anybody thinks that what I say is racially motivated so be it...I have no agenda here ...have no axe to grind...no gain...wouldnt want any particular person or party to replace the elected government...would like to see elections verified by outside impartial parties though...not white ex colonial mediators...just fair and free elections that are seen to be that way....if that is wrong tell me please.
Geoff
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Fredblack
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Posted: Sunday February 15th, 2004 18:46 |
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| Geoff. I confused points made by untitled eg Saddam Hussaine etc with yours....Apologies.
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Sunday February 15th, 2004 18:52 |
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Fredblack wrote:
Let me give you a scenario. This is the mid 1980's and If there it was thereotically feasible for our people to seize power in this country and this was achieved. The leadership of the movement at various levels is looking to reward its hardest and most committed members, those who have sacrificed the most for the cause. Those people like yourself who march up and down in rain, give your time and money in all kinds of ways....
At a particular point when leadership is deciding how to punish their enemies, and reward their loyal solidiers. People like me and you ,my brother are going to receive phone calls; and given opportunties and access, positions, secondments and a whole range of different things.
Fred: Talking about 'stakeholders' to use a very mordern term..can I recite the following:
What were the aims of the 200 pioneers as they splashed aceoss the Motloutsi on 27 June and vanished into the dust clouds that enwrapped them like a smoke screen? Far some it was enough to be part of an adventure organised by South Africa's leading British colonial, Cecil Rhodes, the Colossus.. Other were, no doubt attracted by the lure of the 3,000 acre farms to be given away free to each pioneer in return for cutting the road to Mount Hampden, (no mention was made of the present occupiers of the land, the Shona & Ndelbele..)
Excerpt taken from pg 375 Scramble for Africa by Thomas Pakenham
Fred my first point is whilst I naturally see the gist of your argument and it does make sense.. My essential problem is this.. within a Capitalist controlled, neo colonialist context I fundermentally disagree that the way to solve Zimbabwe's problems is to input a black ruling class in place of the white ruling class one that exsistent before..isn't that the actual contradiction here..
If we compare both situations the one provided by you and the true historial one provided by myself.. How can it be principled to adopt the menthod of the White supremacy on our own people.. What I didn't mention here was the actual story of how Cecil Rhodes and his hench men, stole, tricked and took by force Zimbabwe..
The true contradiction for me is the belief that you can REFORM the Capitalist system in the way people seem to believe...the fact is whatever the right of reclaiming the land for the people.. Its execution is NOT principles and not idealogically sound no matter which way people want to cut it..
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Posted: Sunday February 15th, 2004 18:58 |
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Shing. How much clamping down on dissent and civil liberties is taking place in your country. I know it is self evident if people are attempting to undermine by illegal, and other means the legitimate government of any country, it will respond and legitimately so.
I am also aware, that many of those who correctly have had the state stamp on their heads, will cry foul etc; and in many cases local officals, police officers and ordinary supporters will take things in their own hands[not unaturally so]. This has nothing to do with Mugabe, or Zimbabwe per se, just how people respond under such circumstances; and of course it will be alleged not only did Mugabe inspire it, but also planned and led it as well..
But from your perspective, how significant are these clamp downs on civil liberties, and who is feeling it?.
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