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Femergy
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Posted: Saturday July 24th, 2004 23:14 |
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I come across many people who are dead against either of the above, but I still don't quite understand the real reasons behind the extremities.
which would you do, shack up or get married and why would you choose it?
Is moving in first really a trial run, can it really be the basis for future marriage or is every one still to much on their best behaviour?
Do you yearn for the time when marriages were prearranged for you and the elder stook responsibility for undertaking the matching?
Have you had an arranged marriage and if so what was good about this?
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Tammyboo
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Posted: Sunday July 25th, 2004 02:52 |
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| I don't think that "shacking up" is a good choice for me. I prefer to be married but not arranged by anyone but me and the man. The same way you can sleep in a house with a man and give him pleasure, why can't he make it official?
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babyblue
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Posted: Monday July 26th, 2004 13:06 |
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I don't really see a problem with 'shacking up', sometimes you may not be ready to fully committ yourself to the other person. Also if you've been living together for a long time, you may already act like a married couple.
I think i'd probably live with a partner before i live with them because it's a good way of finding out what someone is like, with-out having less choice of whether or not you'll be able to put up with them.
I don't agree with arranged marriages, because sometime who your parents/ family may choose as an 'ideal' partner may be your worst nightmare!!
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Tammyboo
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Posted: Monday July 26th, 2004 18:14 |
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Please don't shoot the messenger but I heard the following statistics.1) Marriages that weren't arranged are likely to end up in divorce vs marriages that were arranged. 2) People that "shack up" before marriage end up in divorce more than people who get married and didn't shack up first. I always thought that in either case it would be the other way around.
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Fredblack
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Posted: Tuesday July 27th, 2004 00:16 |
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@I actually firmly believe in the practice of living together purely because of the type of society we live in in terms of white western culture. I would not have this view in my own country or most Caribbean countries. I don't know enough about Africa first hand to comment there, nor would I think it necessary. But could be wrong.
But I think given what is at stake in these countries I would insist we live together before marriage. But this condition would only apply in obviously very serious relations.
I disagree. Certain things about people cannot be hidden, while others can be hidden 50 years into a marriage..
I have lived with two women and I am glad I did because it really gave me important insights which were to have important consequences. Would always recommend it for my son definitely. Not to sure about daughter. A man has to know who is the mother of his children. A black man has far too much to lose...
In the Caribbean you know who you are dealing with as a woman, her upbringing and lots of things about her, her family etc..Furthermore, if things go wrong the protection accorded to each party is fairer and there is much more avenues and resources to support people etc.
FB
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Femergy
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Posted: Tuesday July 27th, 2004 07:34 |
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Fredblack wrote:
@ Not to sure about daughter. A man has to know who is the mother of his children. A black man has far too much to lose...
HI FB,
Would you please expand on your comment regarding 'not too sure about daughter.' Becasue it suggests that perhaps your gender is a determining factor as to whether you live with someone before you get married (if at all). Also, your comment 'man has to know who is the mother of his children', what specifically would living together offer up by way of clues that not living with her wouldn't, AND what would you be looking for (for those less experienced than yourself)?
In the Caribbean you know who you are dealing with as a woman, her upbringing and lots of things about her, her family etc..Furthermore, if things go wrong the protection accorded to each party is fairer and there is much more avenues and resources to support people etc.
Do you mean to say that the rates of marriage are therefore HIGHER in the Caribbean than African-Caribbean's living out of the Caribbean. My PERCEPTION is that this is not the case. Your argumentwith regard to protection and fairness of treatment must be more to do with traditions that fit closer to the African way of the community being just as much involved in the marriage and its ongoing success than over here where we don't seem to want to 'get in each others business.' Do you think if we did, a lot more relationships would be sustained OR not even happen in the first place?
Peace
Fem
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Sooofresh
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Posted: Tuesday July 27th, 2004 09:31 |
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Personally,
Not a believer in arranged marriage.The person should meet their partners in their natural surroundings under natural circumstances.
Not a believer in co- as well, as i belive it makes people lazy in getting married, especially among white people who to tend co-habit for 20 years have kids, they just cannot be bothered.
@fazun: what you are stating is true, but the only reason why arranged marriage does not end up in divorce is due to the culture and the stigma attached with divorce.These people do not ramp with their marriage vows, so they try their damn hardest.
Maybe, maybe not
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Backatya
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Posted: Tuesday July 27th, 2004 12:22 |
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Femergy wrote:
HI FB,
Do you mean to say that the rates of marriage are therefore HIGHER in the Caribbean than African-Caribbean's living out of the Caribbean. My PERCEPTION is that this is not the case
Peace
Fem
With due respect Femergy here is a question for you.
On what is your perception based?
My perception is that marriage rates are higher among blacks living in those places (where African/Black culture dominates without the same level of interference/contamination from white/Western culture) than among blacks living in places like the UK. My perception is based on 'second-hand' evidence from those who live and are more familiar with the culture in those places. Not saying it is anymore relevant than your perception but I would be interested in knowing the basis of your perception.
It seems logical, even in the absence of more 'authoritative information', that where a culture predominates, the influences of that culture will also affect those for whom it is not the main culture. Hence why I would say that in places like India and P*kistan where 'arranged marriages' are the cultural norm, such marriages would be higher among those living there than among those Indians and Paskitanis living in the UK for example............mere 'personal perception' I grant you but quite a logical assumption I feel.
Taking up on FredB's point about adopting a different practice due to the 'Society' one resides in, I can say that had I lived my teen to mid-thirties in the Carribean as opposed to here in the UK, I would not have felt as 'comfortable' about 'living together' as I did here. My views on marriage have changed somewhat (hence why I am married now) and this had much to do with me getting more into my African/Black culture (and learning more about my heritage) in my mid to late thirties, than any influence from white/Western society...which I believe more and more is becoming anti-marriage.
I feel that the 'psychological effect' of marriage on a couple (and particularl the woman) makes it important for African/Black men/women living in Western societies to see marriage as the ritualistic way to 'seal' their union (notwithstanding the importance, above all else, of making a solid relationship the foundation of that union.
The perception that is propagated about 'black men being afraid of commitment' is given more fuel when we elect to accept and adopt white/Western thinking about the irrelevancy of marriage in the 21st century. The methods we choose to display/confirm to our women/men that we are commited to them should be those that best work to stabalise and solidify our unions not those which are ok for white folk. 'Marriage' and 'Family' values are very much central to traditional African/Black culture.
Respect
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Fredblack
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Posted: Tuesday July 27th, 2004 13:55 |
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@Femergy quite a short one at this stage. Work to do...
1. I think primarily from a male perspective on most things as that is what I am. Except of course some things just stand out to you as a man and of course you will ponder how that would affect a woman. Or take education from your close sisters/jfriends etc on the matter.
So having a son, being a man and seeing some dreadful things happen in this society, how laws operate are interpretated,where the bias is in decision making and the prepondernance of innocence or guilt etc. As a father I have to think how to protect my son and guide him through this mile felid.
All my brothers lived with their wives before they married. My sisters completely different. My father and people would not have it. But I have never really thought about this practice regarding women/daughters. Will speak to the wife and get her view and get back to you on this. As her feeling as a mother would probably be the ultimate determinant on the issue if we could not agree. In same way my views would predominate if we could not come to a concensus on matters to do with our son.
But one thing I can share with you, my wife is adamant she does not want her daughter married as a virgin. She has very strong opinions on those matters, because she views intimacy of all types and knowledge of your husband to be's capabilties to be very very important. Don't want a Treveor Nelson story here.
2. The point I was making is that coming from a smaller society it is much easier to have the type of knowledge needed to make better decisions than in a large urban and complex society like this one.
3. About marriage in the Caribbean. Can't speak with absolute authority as we are talking about over 20 islands if we want to be very precise. But here is what I know and we can say as there are almost general laws which we can apply depending on the region, size and type of society. Class is the primary or one of the primary factors in shaping attitudes towards marriage, as is the region one is from.
For example historically particular islands have higher rates of marriage than others. For example Jamaica has always had a low rate of marriage than say Eastern Caribbean states. Hernandez is the Jamaican expert on this issue. Slavery and disruption in Jamaica had a far greater impact on cultural norms around marriage than other regions given the type of slavery, the size of the island and the forms of slave production eg big planatations. The type of plantations on most islands are far more smaller.
For example in particular islands the historic attitude to illigitimacy has always been very very strong and established in law, due to the property owning nature of soceity. So in islands where people have greater land ownership, we will see this in the attitudes of the law to things like illigitimacy. For example in my island women who are married to men are highly unlikely to want a law which give another woman's child access to her potential estate and property by husband.
In the same way many women fail to appreciate there are black and white women in this country who are more hostile to the CSA and many women who they feel undeserving than there are men who are hostile.
Because no woman is going to want another to be able to take the bread or her money from her mouth and her family for some past dubious relationship.
Marriage is seen as an important institution for many things eg respectablity.
But generally the middle classes and those in stable positions eg respectable working class in the Caribbean generally marry. It is the poor and the marginal who again largely due to economics and norms shaped by disrupriton/cultural dislocation who are less likely to and this has been the case since slavery.
Another group which is affecting marriage rates is the increase of teenage pregnancies in this islands which is creating a national furoar.
FB
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LadyDay
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Posted: Tuesday July 27th, 2004 17:29 |
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i see no problem in living together before marriage. i do see a problem in living with someone year in tear out without making the ultimate commitment. its seems its trendy in the west to be shacked up and never commit to marriage.
i dont believe living together prior to marriage determineshow your marriage will turn out
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Femergy
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Posted: Tuesday July 27th, 2004 21:28 |
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Backatya wrote:
Femergy wrote:
HI FB,
Do you mean to say that the rates of marriage are therefore HIGHER in the Caribbean than African-Caribbean's living out of the Caribbean. My PERCEPTION is that this is not the case
Peace
Fem
With due respect Femergy here is a question for you.
On what is your perception based?
@ Backatya, it is a perception that FB has explained in his response to my post. Without wishing to state 'devils advocate' I feel it useful sometimes to say what is on other peoples minds but won't say it. FB's reply has neatly outlined the issues and more fundamentally why that is the case.
I am a firm believer in ritual and as such shacking up isn't my preference if ritual is absent. Many people get married without ritual, just a clinical legality, and that is not my preference either. We are people of rituals and symbology. Where there might well be islands with high levels of marriage, I do wonder whether this is more driven by christian indoctrination as opposed to Africentric/ritual marriage.
I do not view a christian any less, my point is more around understanding what is driving the levels of marriage - i.e. Eastern islands are predominantly Catholic.
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Maat
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Posted: Wednesday August 4th, 2004 13:52 |
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Femergy wrote: I come across many people who are dead against either of the above, but I still don't quite understand the real reasons behind the extremities.
which would you do, shack up or get married and why would you choose it? We shecked up first but I had been living with him for a while before hand. Getting our place was like the next natural step
Is moving in first really a trial run, can it really be the basis for future marriage or is every one still to much on their best behaviour? It depends on how comfortable the couple are with each other. Some people never let their guard down (past reasons) so that in itslef can cause big problems. I am surprised when I hear people who STILL don't do certain things infornt of their partners because they don't want the image theor partners have of them to change
Do you yearn for the time when marriages were prearranged for you and the elder stook responsibility for undertaking the matching? Do you mean as in the elders would make a wiser choice for you, based on their knowledge and experience?
Have you had an arranged marriage and if so what was good about this? No I'd have to check out the goods first If I had a background that involved arranged marriage, then I suppose I would feel the need to do as my culture does. Not sure if I'd be happy in the relationship though....
Good Questions Femergy
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LadyN2
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Posted: Thursday August 5th, 2004 01:32 |
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I don't believe that when I am in a serious relationship that I would "shack up" with anyone. I believe in being married to a person if I am going to be living with them. But if someone I know does it, oh well.
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The Watcher
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Posted: Thursday August 5th, 2004 01:49 |
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Marriage is not for the drunk one!!!
Before Marriage
After Marriage
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Sage
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Posted: Thursday August 5th, 2004 01:55 |
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@ DM
LMAO!
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Fredblack
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Posted: Thursday August 5th, 2004 03:17 |
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@Femergy. You asked"HI FB,
Would you please expand on your comment regarding 'not too sure about daughter.' Becasue it suggests that perhaps your gender is a determining factor as to whether you live with someone before you get married (if at all). Also, your comment 'man has to know who is the mother of his children', what specifically would living together offer up by way of clues that not living with her wouldn't, AND what would you be looking for (for those less experienced than yourself)?
-----------------------------------------------------------
1. Gender is very important as this in my mind is not a gender nuetral issue. Some things are gender nuetral others not. So speaking from a male perspective and what I know and have experience and what I have seen others experience. I advise no son of mine or man who wanted it, to marry a woman from a distance in this western society.
Sorry to say and I am not stereotyping and you as a woman know how many women think and how they see marriage. Not in a nuts and bolts kind of way. A man needs to know the nuts and bolts. I only have to sit and watch many of the women around me to see how they see marriage to know I am not cursed to be living in a bad part of town.
Not talking about sisters who are mature and have an rounded view of the world and a grounded one. Cos many simply don't from my perspective.
Let me tell you about the things I am talking about and I will not go too deep, but I can...I have lived with two women and one who I went out with and could see many of the things I saw clearly in the ones I lived with.
Let me say this. There are different types of women according to their circumstances and it creates odd paradoxes. For example a woman with two kids can be slack as hell in how she runs her home and make all excuses she can. Some justified others not. While others are up first thing in the morning and have done a hundred things before it is 12.00 clock.
Then you can have women that I tend to go out with. Who are "good girls" live with their sisters or parents in well run homes, with good role models in a whole heap of things to do with family life. But when you live with them. Jesus god...
The first couple of years can be hell not heaven and you could as easily end the relationship as continue with it.
You can have a woman, who can organise a home like anything. But cannot handle money like a little kid. Why she has never had to be responsible, living with her sisters or parents spending money like a kid with no consequences beause here what they are going to eat and live comfortably. So as big women they can blast their money with no consequences at that culture is very very deep and difficult to shift.
You can have a woman, as I said who runs her home like a machine, but that on top of working by the time they come home they are dead and like old women. For real and that is a serious issue. They act as if they are doing you a favour by simply going to work when they were always going to work. But beyond that they are no good to you as a man or beast, until the weekend. For real. Do you know how many women I have been out with and by seven o clock half way through touching base as I call it the woman is snoring like a drunk.
Many women today simply have not been socialised for hard work or actually being a wife. And I am not lying as they have a very soft and undemanding life until two children drop on them.
I was trained for hard work from the year dot. I have held two jobs did five degrees back to back. All but one part time and hold down demanding positions. Train regularly to keep fit etc, play sport, carry out my organisational functions/duties and stilll fresh for my woman. While she has gone to work, come home prepare a meal if in before me, what 3-4 times a week if that. And the woman is mashed. For real.
If not mashed, all they want to do is slump in front the TV and not even hold conversation and if you attemp to, it is as if you are irritating them. Because that is what they did by their parents or sisters.
It is as if they have very little real understanding what this thing is about. I have had women for real that men wanted to fight and abuse me for, walking down the road in certain CAribbean women, becaue they are hot and bueatiful women. Bu the reality is, you are not getting much benefit and that kind of stress does not help, because as soon as they do a bit of normal domestic or whatever they are tired.
I know women who when the relationship moving to serious stages they still want to act as if you just met and want to be going everywhere. When you impress on them that is not possible as serious things requires saving money and sacrificing. These women get depressed. NOt joking, very serious. And these are not uneducated or stupid uniintelligent women. That is why I say men have to be very careful, because taking them on face value, you will think these are dream women, concious, intelligent, values in the right place until you live with them and realise they have been living a fantasy life.
But the joke is. When I live with women I do everything for the first year, as I have always had my home and will not live under a woman's roof and subject to any whims. As a man I am much more principled and consistent than most women I know and will not suddenly swicth on anything I have said or agreed or suddenly come with new exceptions.
Most of thes women were shattered by 9.00 clock and I am fresh as a daisy. I even said to many of them that I could have another woman and they would not know and that is why I say to this day. Women want men for things different than we want them. We want them literally and I don't mean sexually. Women from my experience like to feel safe in the knowledge they have a man, it gives them normality. They have something to say when Valentines DAy comes. But to be honest. I could have fit in two women comfortably in that time.
One day I was talking to a cousin of a good pal and mention some of the dramas I had with my ex previous to my wife and he was stunned. People see a particular image of a woman and I think impose all that is good on them. Then he told me what I said he could relate to and mentioned his brothers woman. He described as a young old hag.
He told me, he remembered her when they first went out and she was a lovely girl. Life and soul of the party. He said not even a year pass and when he come and check his brother. She could just about take her face out of the television. And if she was not doing that she was sleeping and by our standards as men, silly times and not even children these days go to sleep so early.
He said, he used to try to start a little conversation with her, but it was like drawing blood. His brother is a builder who comes home late 8.00-9.00pm and he said he could not buy a conversation from her. As if she had cooked the food and what else do you want.
After a while of talking and no joy, my man started to creep and for a good while too. Of course when she found out big drama and she wanted to involve him and tell him about his brother. But he said through love and respect for his brother. He said nothing, because he would have told her if you were my woman, I wouldn't be creeping around when I have a house, because I would be f**kig her in your face and telling you to shut the door behind you and come and make noise if you think you are man or woman..
One of my bredrins, looks after his parents home when they are back home most of the year or for year on end as they have their home. From childhood many of the boys go and check him there and chill in the garden and reason.
One day I went there and the place was full with brothers. Usually there will be three or four at a time. But there was a whole heap. It suddenly dawned on me all of us had women and should have been at home. But most of the guys were there for the same reason more or less.
After the majority left me and my man were just chatting and I asked for his girlfriend and child's mother. Who actually lives next door to him. The man just dimissed me ands said her. After Emerdale or whatever, she is finished. So literally my man just entertained his friends for company.
And his girl is daman lazy. My man's sister was one of my old long time girlfreinds and use to cuss that woman hard for her laziness and could not believe a black woman in her 30's could be that lazy and only had one child,who she could deposit with her who lived around the corner and go rave and check her friends. We always invited her to retreats we organised because her man is one of our long time solidiers and you could see she was lazy for true, beause my woman had to go and get her to involve her or get her to help her. When food cook she appears, or hangs around when joke and conversation is going on. She will offer people drinks and things non taxing, but when the women step forward, she steps back or disappears.
So what I have learned is this, especially if you come from a home where women are on their jobs hard and pride themselves on it, you don't want to pick up a woman who acts simply by going to work and cooking a meal is doing you a favour. Because that is what you are going to get from Monday to Friday.
As I have seen if their freinds or sisters phone to chat sh*t. Energy shoots through their veins. In fact what I really use to resent and I have experienced this as I said with two women I lived with. Is if they went out in the middle of the week, because there is something about wine bar and restauarant which is an undeinable right and both of them drink.
By the time they get home, you cannot get a sentence out of them, because they have in my eyes a weak disposition in the first place and then want to drink. Even if only a couple glassess of wine and come home. Forget any interaction of any kind.
As I have always told these women and my wife. They must have prayed to god, they have a very busy man who has more than enough to keep him busy, because if not. I would have had other women long time and if they don't like it. They know what they can do. Becuase I can go back home and get far more bueatiful women to what we have here who are serious about keeping their men if treated well.
Don't have to put up with inferior sh*t. I keep on mentioning the book Yardie, because what Headley character says about a lot of women here many men can relate to. Flow Unclever on the Muslim women and Western women thread says many things which are damn true and I can given plenty example when he said there are too many women in this society who can't even do the basics which we associate with being a woman.
This is why men like me are resentful of even an inch extra demands being made on me by any woman, because we are being short changed big time in too many cases. Fufil what I have a right to expect properly and we can think about it, but don't dare come with any new agenda items, because I will show you where to put it. Men can always get what they want and don't have to put up with sh*t.
I have had women who would spend all Saturday at hair dressers, shopping with friends and doing whatever and come home mash up and tired.
But let me show you something which to me is very revealling. I have never given a damn about what women say to their friends or sisters. If anything negative comes my way. They are gone and it is a simple as that. Because everyone has the right to choose their counsell. But choose it well, because if not.....My close people are solidiers who I have and can put my children's life in their hands. So I have no worry about my council as they have kept me free and at large so to speak.
But all if notr most of my girlfriends and wife included were terrified of my relationship with my aunt, who lives very close to me, who they all liked and respected. Because they were terrified as we were so close that I would make comments about their lacking as Caribbean woman. Which I never did, because my aunt would tell me to dump them as they are inferior women and not the kind I need to be dealing with.
You see those women have a very high standard and perception of what it is to be a Caribbean woman or wife, to hear you just come home from work. There are only two of you and you are already dead to the world, because why would a self respecting man who has choice going to put up with that foolishness. What did these generation women invent work or jobs?
Women who are so tired they will throw any rubbish on and offend your eyes and simply dump themsleves in a chair. I don't expect a dolly bird, but don' take the piss and I have read out the riot act on several occasions. Because they were over the moon to have me and now want to insult me...Girlfriend fix up fast...Or they are so tired they just come home from work and throw their clothes and underwear and stuff on the floor and quickly bathe and leave it right there.
Beause they are so "stressed" all they can think of is comfort and I as a man raised properly would never do that, or only if my attention is interupted. But not on a daily basis and when you see these women on road they are a million dollars and man can't even approach them.
So living with women will really open your eyes whether this woman is actually capable or fit for the long haul. I know three 20 something black girls bueatiful, nice and warm down to earth approachable. I would warn young brothers when you see them run. They can't do sh*t for you even basics. Forget it.
Femergy, let me stop here cos I could go on all night.
FB
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theblackestgirl
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Posted: Thursday August 5th, 2004 04:09 |
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I really don't see alot wrong w/ non-forced arranged marriages. But "shacking up" is soooo not for me.
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Sooofresh
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Posted: Thursday August 5th, 2004 11:28 |
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@Fredblack wrote:Many women today simply have not been socialised for hard work or actually being a wife. And I am not lying as they have a very soft and undemanding life until two children drop on them.
I was trained for hard work from the year dot. I have held two jobs did five degrees back to back. All but one part time and hold down demanding positions. Train regularly to keep fit etc, play sport, carry out my organisational functions/duties and stilll fresh for my woman. While she has gone to work, come home prepare a meal if in before me, what 3-4 times a week if that. And the woman is mashed. For real.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!
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Femergy
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Posted: Thursday August 5th, 2004 11:41 |
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@ DrunkMonkey .... is that any way for a moderator to behaviour 
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Posted: Thursday August 5th, 2004 12:30 |
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@ Femergy
No its not and Im sorry...............
JUST KIDDING!!
Thats a better description of marriage than I could EVER write!!
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Fredblack
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Posted: Thursday August 5th, 2004 14:26 |
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@Sooofresh...who said"FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!"
You are probably too young to know about serious relationships...But are you suggesting I am making things up. I suppose what Headley said in his book and a lot of those brothers fresh from Jamaica say about "them English girls" is all lies...?
Sooofresh is your Muslim brother Flow Unclever also wrong when he says there are a whole heap of western black women who are useless and simply cannot manage basic things like running a home or marriage?
What I actually found funny is that all these women mentioned say or negotiate what they were going to take on and simply strained to manage it. When as a man I have been doing these things comfortably by myself...
So....
I should bring some older married women who will give you an insight into their grandaughers and daugher in laws...or go to people's homes who have 20 something daughters who are not only spoilt but bone idle. Their mothers were brought up in a different system and cannot be bothered to force it on those who are not interested or want to hang out with their friends to their long term detrmiment.
I know mothers big women who held two jobs for 30 years and runs smooth homes like a machines. One daughter is highly skilled one absolutely useless. Sorry for the man who choose wrong..
Young girls have cars today and have a million and one reasons to be elsewhere.
My cousin had to take his new wife firmly in hand for two years. Because she did not have clue and was brought up in a good home with plenty sisters..She is a professional manager though...
Had he not had the patience and home training they may not have got to ten years marriage. He had to take the lead in the home, which where we come from is shameful and speaks negatively of the woman and the home she is from.
So what is going on in families today in terms of the training and socialisation of their daughters which why I will tell any son of mine, live with her first. If she is against it go and get yourself another woman. Because this is not about romance or virtue but simple practicalities..
A man cannot afford to be buying doddgy goods..
FB
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Sooofresh
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Posted: Thursday August 5th, 2004 14:54 |
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@fredblack
no I am not implying that you are lying!
Just reading all your posts, you have issues with some women.
Not all women want to be house trained as you claim these are not dogs maybe that is not their cliche! maybe they prefer to do other things like going to the GYMN!.
Not all women are lazy far from it, try saying that to a women who has kids and works and runs a home I am sure Thaliba will fill you in.
BUT
let me tell you that my mum and her sister both done pHDs while having two kids under 5 years old and looking after the house and yes they were "mashed" as you rudely put it. So Instead of the husbands whinging about why their wives did not have the time for them, they instead agreed to help them.
You mentioned that you work long hours and then go the GYMN ! ofcourse you will not be mashed up! that is FUN.
sorry cooking dinner requires preperation, not sure what you eat but I know whatever my mum and dad cooks takes hours.
One question: have you got anything positive to say about modern women.
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Sage
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Posted: Thursday August 5th, 2004 16:48 |
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@ Ja/all
I have a question. Are common law marriages recognized over there?
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Posted: Thursday August 5th, 2004 17:53 |
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@Sooofresh I got plenty issues with post modernism or the popular white ideas being promoted and the ideas its promote so has half the country actually. You are obviously to young to keep the company of grown men and listen to them carefully and observe in more carefully.
Hasn't your Muslim brother Flow unclever got these issues or the author I mentioned or does those observations not count?.
I have plenty issues with how men conduct themselves and a whole heap of issue around basic expectations. As people have basic expectations of me and most men for that matter.
So it cannot be that I am held to basic expectations even when not agreed to it, but women cannot hold up things they agreed with. Simple matter of contract and mutual agreement.
Do you think if I came home late my woman would not want me to do things I have agreed to do or naturally expect me as a man?
Why does having good skills in basic domestic managament equate with being a dog? So when your Muslim husband has basic expectations you will interpret that as wanting you to be a dog..? You go work and come home and are shattered and what...?Well go to work, fix up your business or don't. The choice is yours. But you can't have it both ways.
A great brother called Haki R Madhubuti says this. Black people progress requires putting your hours in for white people and then coming home and putting your time in for your own. Not one at the expense of the other and that my dear sister is the standard and requirement of black progress.
If I worked all the hours that god sends. Do you think that alone is going to cut it with the average woman I have met. No it won't, because money to them is not all when they don't want that to be a priority but when they do it is a different thing. A man can be blamed for not working enough or as I have for working too much..
Men are usually expected to keep to expecations. Looking after children require having these skills and the funny thing is these women know it, which is why from my observations they fear the scrutiny of older maturer women who are very very influential in large families and where you see real female power by the way. Many of whom who have been working longer than they have been alive.
The women in my family and mother in particular is less concerned that you are a barrister than you are a good woman/wife and mother to her son and grandchildren. They reall don't give a toss about your profession. Both my sisters are professionals and what...? Their mother doesn't care about that primarily.
How can you expect equality and you cannot even hold up your basic end of the deal which you voluntarily entered nobody forced it on you? I have never known a woman to say to me she doesn't want what is on offer in terms of male expectations? We live in a modern world so very few men I know expect the kind of stuff we grew up in. But even with important compromise and shared responsibilities a lot still struggle.
All the men I know do far more in their homes than their fathers and happy to do so, but women still struggling. Nah....
I remembered this buppy boy, who use to show off and nobody took him on with his foolish buppy girl. They grew up in the area, but act like they come from a different planet. He had a business and she was a council housing officer and looked down on people, for real.
One day after a political function he came to our base with us. He thought he was a good role model and wanted to join our African male fraternity.
There was a lot of food left and we were helping ourselves and talking. I have never seeen a man eat so much like he was starving. Certain brothers like me was watching him hard, beause what is going on the home is even more important to us than all the black chat he wants to come with. While he ate he begun to talk about his buppy show girl who nobody liked anyhow.
When the man started to talk, the only thing he did not do was to cuss out her arse. He said she was usesless and do we know how much of their money, and his in particular, was spent on a weekly basis in take aways and restauarant..
The woman was all superifical show and nothing else. You know what happend about 7 years in he met an ordinary down to earth sister and married her and left the trophy gal right there. Home girls know what is important and taking care of their business.
Why don't the women I mention come forward and say well I am a modern woman and don't believe in these things. Because most of them would be on the way out. Families have basic expectations on how their grandchildren are raised and the regime in the home and how kids are being fed etc. So if you come from family with expectations that sh*t is not going to wash.....
We have one of these women in our extended family and you know something they are barely tolerated by the other women, barely and just politeness because they are married to their blood. The irony is she is madly jealous of the women who are loved and command respect from men and women who also work hard and work harder looking after their families.
She said to me the other day, if she won the lottery now she would go to the Caribbean on the spot. I laughed because one women like that have no place in the Caribbean and when there spend most of their time complaining. They are neither fish nor foul and live in a state of limbo of being crudely neither Caribbean or white. Difficult place to be....
Furthermore, wasn't she the one talking about careeer career career? Her family have suffered. She has no real marriage, because the husband wouldn't waste a drop of sweat on her and is there for his children. Her father in law who use to love her holds the woman in contempt, beceause her new ideology came late in life.
I said to her tongue in cheek just to put salt in the wounds you should have stayed at home girl and look after your family and keep yourself sexy for your man. She was a bueatiful looking woman and now....Haggard and battered and her husband looks twenty years younger and in very good nick...So she is insecure there as well. I am convinced many women cannot absorb the stresses of this society or they internalise it and it manifests in different ways...
While working her daughters are more influenced by their baby mother friends, and now we have two baby mothers in the family. So who is the laughing stock? Who is the woman mothers tell in the family who not to be like..Who is the one who is politely ignored when serious people are having family conversations.
So not talking theory my dear or about MY ISSUES ,as I don't have this issue as I do my work and approach it properly and get the required results...These women are good role models to use to frighten the hell out of our daughters...So its all good.
FB
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Sooofresh
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Posted: Thursday August 5th, 2004 19:09 |
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@Fredblack fair enough both women and men should take care of buisness when it comes to marriage.
Flow-unclever well that bro is a different story so NO COMMENT, except I aint getting married full stop.
I remember when my mum was studying, working and looking after the family well she was tired all the time that sometimes she cries because she felt a failure. Now let me explain me, my sister and my dad felt sorry for my mum and tried to help in every way, BUT the problem was her nosey aunties who never worked yet they placed this guilt on my mother.My dad was furious that my mum own sisters can place this emotional burden on my mum. It is always the case of people quick to criticse women on not complying with her duties at all time and is treated with discontent.
Dunno guess people should look at the whole picture before assuming that modern women is lazy.
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Posted: Thursday August 5th, 2004 20:02 |
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@Sooofresh. Take your point. But that is the clash of cultural expectations and this is exaclty what I am talking about. Men are measured by men, particularly elder men in terms of expectations. Women by their seniors etc. The point for me is many of these older women had to work much harder and earn less money and still manage the things many of these younger women struggle with. Women who had 6 kids not today with one and two..
Today I have washing machine and all gadgets which my mother did not have until late..
Morover, men back in the day were not helping women in the areas they do today. My mother would not want my father's involvement in her runnings period, because as far as she was concerned he has his business to mind not hers.
The women of our generation expect it and too often still struggle and can't manage. The thought of my father or uncle's living with a woman and having to be man and woman, which is how they would see it for the first one and two years of a relationship to run the fundamentals in the home, until our women can eventually get their heads around it.
Sis. Would never happen. She would end up same place she came from. That woman would be cussed on road and the immediate community and family will get to hear about it.
FB
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Fredblack
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Posted: Thursday August 5th, 2004 20:33 |
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@Ashanti said:"@ Ja/all
I have a question. Are common law marriages recognized over there?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Boy....After 2 years. Which is no time. So shows you the very very slippery and tricky legal dilemas a man can put himself in.
Jax
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Posted: Thursday August 5th, 2004 20:48 |
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@ Ja...
The time varies here in the States as well as the requirements. If you both, in the presence of others refer to the person you are living with as your wife or husband...it meets one of the requirements of a common law marriage....that plus, the length of stay and if both your names are on legal documents.
Almost forgot...and if you make your intentions known (about eventually marrying the person you're living with).
Last edited on Thursday August 5th, 2004 21:04 by Sage
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Fredblack
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Posted: Thursday August 5th, 2004 21:07 |
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@Ashanti. NOt here if I am not mistaken. It is two years or joint residency. You don't have to declare sh*t, it is assumed from the legislation that that inference can be taken.
Had a most interesting discussion with specialist lawyer in this area which frightened the bejezzuss out of me. She said if yo are living with a woman, don't care what the circumsntances as the law is not interested, as a man make sure she is paying everything fifty fifty. Because aftter that period she is your common law wife.
A whole heap of men with women who aint divying up fifty fifty so you can imagine how that info went down..Fifty percent as we know depends on what one earns. So most of the women in my life never paid for fifty percent of anything, because I have always earned more generally or had more.
The laws in this country on family matters are a joke and probably doing more to put people off marriage etc than anything else. There is a big increase of men and women living seperately because people fear to commit under these circumstnaces..
So if you enter a relationship with more materially and can contribute more have a higher status job etc than your woman who say works at Tesco. You could end up being hammered.
I know brothers who will simply dismiss a black woman if she is not close to their earning capacity, because that way if sh*t breaks out they are even or gain but not lose. For real, they won't touch a woman unless as I say they see her payslip. Which to me is disgusting. How much or what a woman earns means nothing to me, because it is she that is the point of attraction. But these laws force people to be coldly rational and calculating.
My wife's sister complained her boy friend would not even give her a draw in his yard when she stayed there. Don't want any woman getting to cosy. Because he built himself from dirt and no woman is going clean him out. That is his view. Sick culture my sister, but the law has a lot to do with it.
Jax
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Posted: Thursday August 5th, 2004 21:25 |
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Fredblack wrote: @Ashanti. NOt here if I am not mistaken. It is two years or joint residency. You don't have to declare sh*t, it is assumed from the legislation that that inference can be taken.
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Posted: Thursday August 5th, 2004 22:59 |
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So my Lions become even MORE relevant!!! LOL
The forbidden 'M' word is just not an option and thank you guys for the heads up on the common law thing!! wow 
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Posted: Thursday August 5th, 2004 23:29 |
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@Ashanti. They aint playing and that is the real deal.
You have a set up that just breeds insecurity and a win lose scenario which is not healthy in a relationship. I could have a woman who has problems with her apartment and just through circumstances ends up in my bigger home and find your arse in serious legal sh*t.
Turn it around. What kind of man would you be if your girl was in a fix and you did not immediately come to her aid. I know situations when flat mates want to leave the country or something and one no longer has home. So many things could happen in an life...
FB
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Posted: Friday August 6th, 2004 00:40 |
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@ Ja....
Well this will no doubt give those who are considering living together something else to think about.
@ DrunkMonkey
In defense of the female lion....upon closer look at her actions in the second pic...she was probably ticked off because after a long day of cleaning the den, looking after 5 cubs, all this without a bath and without eating, her man came home with no roses and tried to make out with her.
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Posted: Friday August 6th, 2004 01:20 |
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@DM your defunct lion is hillarious. But bro. Let me say this. Nothing wrong whatsoever with marriage and in fact I would go as far to say it is crucial on multiple levels. I know in this culure marriage is under fire. But the majority marry and remain marry despite all the madness.
As a black man marriage is critical on so many levels time does not allow me to expand. Its about your status as a man for one, because marriage is a public ritual and acknowldegement of key aspects of your masculinity and not based on some private agreement. But between you and your wife and community.
The thought of not being married in my family is an insult as it would suggest you are backing out of a fundamental aspect of your masculinity and expectations. Your status, that of your children and a whole heap of stuff, commitments etc. Much more than a piece of paper. Its also about publicly honouring your woman and about her position and status whether rich or poor. It bring honour it based on integrity.
Marriage is critical for power and matters of inheritance. That is how most of the world gain and maintain their power. I benefited from marriage and cannot deny my children the same rights and protection and entitlements. Simple as...
In fact the people who say marriage is not important are people who live in a very small world. I always say to some people England in not Brixton or Hackney and not being married as a serious black man will back fire on you big time in very very embarrasing ways in professional life. Trust me.
The majority of people in this world and country who count are married and they already have nasty perceptions of black men and our women. You are not doing yourself any favours in the bigger world as a black man not being married and are if you are. Simple...
If I tell you comments sisters have told me when they got engaged, even my missus and she said that is where you really see what white people really think of black people; even when they re not talking about them directly. They only reveal what they are talking about in private when they here a sister is getting married in the office.
I have had people ask me honestly in all sincerity as they know I am not an irrational man who will jump in your face. Why don't these black women/men like being married?. Why do they want to have these children without a proper husband? Don't they realise how people see them or how easier it makes life..And all those things..
I know some very bitter and angry professional women of my age group who are twisted and not joking or exaggerating. Because they are the only one not married in their firm and thinks like that. And you can feel it for them because life is already hard for any black person, even if their coconut values really limits the feild big time.
But not only amongst whites but black people here and definetly in certain tribes of the family. I had a friend who was a fool a because if a man does not value himself what can you do. He is half Nigerian and Caribbean but has a much Nigerian culture in him than my foot. What I call black culture which aint nothing but talking black whatever that means. Good solid and very concious brother in all respects. But wobbly values on certain fundamentals like family life.
Had a chiid in a messy relationship. Whole heap of drama.
A Nigerian sister and very bueatiful and intelligent and human, blew him off his feet. Her home making skills were top notch, caring and hard working normal sister. Bang he gets her pregnanat after some years together. After being with a woman after a while a man knows his intentions. But she was on his case quite rightly to come correct, if only for the sake of their son. But he seem to me to have one foot in and one foot out.
Because like it or not in that situation you are going to have to bite the bullet and take the rough with the smooth. No the woman is not perfect, but as a man I could see he more than contributed to her being angry as she felt devalued and I don't have to be a Nigerian to know that. My sister would react exactlty the same and would expect if they have a decent man and things happen that he would be duty bound at least.
I have elder cousins who were with their men and they got preganant and married and been married for donkeys and happy. But their men have character and are old school Caribbean men even though not that old really.
But like all relationships which go up and down and sometimes you can't stand the sight of each other until a week later or something. So there is no ideal day in life. He would cuss and complain but he wasn't going anywhere else.
I told him at times a man just needs to make a commitment and you will be surprised all those petty warfare ceases beause the woman's worse fears are no longer there. What is there to say she may not feel insecure and feel she might end up as another mistake? I mean we aint talking about major issues where couples are concerned just irritation. How many times must I ask you or tell you rubbish..
Years later they decide to have another child. Family are going beserk, because their daughter is being disrespected and understandbly so. But she did not want only one child. One day while he was in hospital and the woman's friends came to see her. But she was in the bathroom and he said she would be out in a minute. One of the women who did not even acknowledge him when she entered only his son, kissed her teeth and ignored him and continued to walk towards the bathroom.
My boy is not soft or any p***y let me tell you. A professional man, who grew up on street in North London figth enough police and a solidier in the wars down there. So he asked my girl where she was going and did she not hear him. What the woman told him I would not repeat to you. Complete utter contempt of disrespect. WEll predictable because I would react exactly the same at that type of insult, but would not be in that position.
My man then told the woman's husband who he always thought was soft and in the Church to speak to his wife. The man said nothing. But I don't think it was about being soft on that day. He just thought the man was low and not worthy of respect as a Nigerian of a particular calibre.
My boy told his son to wait for him in the car and then told the husband as he obviously had no control over his wife, then he would have to deal with it and grabbed both of them by their throats and dragged them to the lifts...Warfare broke out. Police came and I got the call at some stupid time in the mornnng to come and get him.
A couple of years later. We were in the Caribbean and I had warned him and everybody to mind your mouth while there. Unless I others point it out you have no idea of who you are talking to or with. It could be a judge, a gangster anybody as he does not come from there and there is no such thing as innocent information on a small island.
My aunt invited us for luch and a posse of us reached. All the brothers are pros and handled themselves to the max. My man gets into a conversation about man and woman with my youngest sister who is married. Cut a long story short I come back from somewhere and he is talking about his children. Three in total.
My sister is charming like a viper and has absolute contempt for men who as far as she is concerned run around the place breeding women. Something about a bueatiful smile that lulls foolish men and when I heard what he was talking about try to draw his attention.
My man ignore me and carrying on. Thinking his dissertion of woman dramas is cutting any ice. I know my sister. Because three children and no marriage is no accident. That fact he is a professional man and earns money and always working and looks after his children no doubt. Is neither her nor there as far as she is concerned.
My aunt comes to bring out drinks etc and over hears this conversation. And almost hauls me by my neck into the kitchen and reads the riot act to me, about what am I walking around with a "quarter men" as we call them who have no respect for themselves, their women or children?
The worse thing about my aunt when she gets her teeth into to something like that. Talk about feminism, men abusing or disrepecting good decent black women. Jesus god. Years later she is still going on..She does not even know the women but will put her hands in fire to defend them.
My man thought he was in Brixton or Hackney where a man saying openly he is not into marriage but producing children aint no big thing. BIG MISTAKE....IT IS A BIG THING....People check it like this. Good stable trusty worthy responsible men. Suspect men, up to something shady...Rightly or wrongly that is how it is seen. He is not a poor ignorant man, but educated and surely must have the sense to realise this is not good and is not expected of somebody in his position. What is even more shocking to my aunt a retired head mistresss. The man comes from an advanced country and comes here with this backwardness.
He is not from a poor village or from a community where men are seamen or all over the place or just slack.
I am glad it was by my aunt and not in front of my father. Because he is man of age and has no fear of any little boy or have to hide and would question my man and intellectually tie him in knots..and it would boil down to this...WHAT FORM OF MAN ARE YOU...?He has daughters and just the thought of that kind of conversation will kill him or make him go on the offensive. Its like violating his house...
So my brother DM say you are not rushing to marry in the Village. But elsewhere guard your words very carefully.
Yes the waters are very very rough. But one thing we know as day follows night there are good women of marriage material. It just means in this time brothers got to be slick on their game. I mean really slick. You will probably have to go through more women that guys of my generation to find the woman of your choice. But this is the new reality. Also my brother you do not know what life has for you.
But we are blessed as a race with good women even amongst the madness and that is the truth. Just need how to avoid the crazies long enough and you will meet them and then be on your game to know what to sus out when they don't have their public faces on.
FB
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The Watcher
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Posted: Friday August 6th, 2004 02:39 |
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I just reached in and probably will have to go out again in a mo so Ill be brief...
@ Ashanti
A very good response LOL!! I have no witty reply for you...
@ FredB
Like that in my family too, In my family being unmarried is a slight on your status as a man, and implies a you're too weak to hold a woman. Point is Im mid 20s living in a big city in the Western world. Its not a nice village in the Carribean or Africa with women who hold family values dear and so on. Its a world where everybody is out for self to get what they can (including me) or be left behind with nothing. Who wants to have a dream of working together in marriage? Look how easy divorce is, when a marriage aint working people will run go break up and mash up your whole system. Marriage has been reduced to a peice of paper and tax benifits. Thats it!
Yes its about finding the right woman but every man who has been divorced thought he had the right one innit? Till you get burned and left without a damn thing.
Ive been raised by the city to be the most cynial and suspicious man on earth LOL Serious! Ive met too many crazy chicks in my short lil life. Yeah Ive met good ones too and had a few real love relationships but the M word is just not feasible for a young modern man like me. Dunno what the alternatives are, you just threw a damper on the shacking up thing with you 'common law' talk so *shrugs* I dunno....
Maybe a decade of batchelordom and relationships has made me selfish, marriage can only work with mutual umm compromising but Ive enjoyed my way on everything for too long so it would be like giving in (way too much). Selfish? Perhaps but there you are
How much do those blasted wedding things cost anyway? the ring and dress would bankrupt me bro and as for a honeymoon!!
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Posted: Friday August 6th, 2004 10:44 |
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Fredblack wrote:
But we are blessed as a race with good women even amongst the madness and that is the truth. Just need how to avoid the crazies long enough and you will meet them and then be on your game to know what to sus out when they don't have their public faces on.
FB
Yes I agree. And we are blessed with as many good men. Whilst there 'crazies' out there, there is also the 'wo'tless' and 'quarter man' men out there, Ladies keep your legs shut tight for as long as you can (metaphorically speaking!). Yes, there are patient men out there who whilst waiting for a slice from you will no doubt be dipping his boots elsewhere, but that's his look out! Emotions play far too great a role of a woman's psyche to ignore, so lets use that intuition and in-sightful energy to good and perfect use.
Signs to watch out for for a good man will include:
- Does he have knowledge of his Spirit self and is he comfortable talking about all issues from a spiritual standpoint?
- Is he commited to continuously developing himself to be the best that he can be?
- Is he a man of vision, does he have one, does he have a plan? Notice who and what he includes in that plan and be clear about what his purpose is in it, is it money alone and how does this fit with your vision?
- Hygiene, does he practice it becasue this will indicate whether he is a man who will pay attention to detail. If he ain't be particular about himself he probably ain't particular about who he has laid with in the past.
- Physical fitness: Well if he ain't interested in his health or if he is abusing his health e.g. smoking, then how do you feel about that? is it important to you, would you want the seed of a man whose sperm can't swim more than 10mm? Seriously though, what do you think his physical fitness states about his whole approach to life e.g. does he have reasonable levels of self discipline, does he stick to routines that he sets, does he self affirm belief in what he is doing and why?
- Intellectual fitness: I am not talking about degrees necessarily or whether he survived an education system in the uk. Does he stimulate HIMSELF does he read regularly, does he have something to say about most subjects you raise, does he LISTEN, what are his communication skills like????? Is he willing to learn new things with you or does he turn this into a competition?
- Emotional intelligence: We're talking how he manages his emotional states. Signs of immaturity might include: argumentativeness, prone to losing temper and offloading it on you instead of taking it elsewhere, sulking, refusing to listen to your side of the 'story', disengages when you pull him up about something even when you do this in a respectful way, refers to the past (living in the past) to counterattack, on a regular basis, unable to recognise the positives, talks using negative language, uses the word 'should' too often.
Of course this list isn't exhaustive and I would say not necessarily gender specific. I have more to add but need to go right now.
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Fredblack
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Posted: Friday August 6th, 2004 18:20 |
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@DM said"@ FredB
"Like that in my family too, In my family being unmarried is a slight on your status as a man, and implies a you're too weak to hold a woman. Point is Im mid 20s living in a big city in the Western world. Its not a nice village in the Carribean or Africa with women who hold family values dear and so on. Its a world where everybody is out for self to get what they can (including me) or be left behind with nothing. Who wants to have a dream of working together in marriage? Look how easy divorce is, when a marriage aint working people will run go break up and mash up your whole system. Marriage has been reduced to a peice of paper and tax benifits. Thats it!
Yes its about finding the right woman but every man who has been divorced thought he had the right one innit? Till you get burned and left without a damn thing.
Ive been raised by the city to be the most cynial and suspicious man on earth LOL Serious! Ive met too many crazy chicks in my short lil life. Yeah Ive met good ones too and had a few real love relationships but the M word is just not feasible for a young modern man like me. Dunno what the alternatives are, you just threw a damper on the shacking up thing with you 'common law' talk so *shrugs* I dunno....
Maybe a decade of batchelordom and relationships has made me selfish, marriage can only work with mutual umm compromising but Ive enjoyed my way on everything for too long so it would be like giving in (way too much). Selfish? Perhaps but there you are
How much do those blasted wedding things cost anyway? the ring and dress would bankrupt me bro and as for a honeymoon!!"
-----------------------------------------------------------
1. Most imprortant issue first bro. Never attempt to argue or persuade a man' whose mind is closed. But can sometimes make for interesting chat. I don't actually think your mind is closed.
2. Critical issue price of wedding...well don't think a coke can ring will suffice but take your drift. Firstly on a serious tip. The type of wedding you have as a man is actually one of the first public demonstrations of your leadership and quality of cooperation between you and the missus to be. And you can tell a whole heap about your woman and also the man in question how you handle that.
If a woman wants more than you can afford or willing to spend..Get another. Because you will know much earlier about your woman's values and priorities before that day ever comes. If girlfriend comes with fantasy island talk, then homie you know the kind of woman you are dealing with..And a concious man can decide how he moves, whether he can educate and influence, or start looking elsewhere.
My parents married back home but many of our family married here and weddings were very simple with small numbers of close family and freinds. They came here to make money not blow it. So never forget as a MAN you are a major player in how you marry. All this sh*t about its a woman's day is white fantasy. Its both of your day especially if you are paying for it.
Furthermore as an experienced man, even if family want to contribute, you are the boss or going to be and thank you but no thank you will suffice. People will respect you. Seen too many little boys get rolled into foolishness which indirectly forces them to spend more than they can afford..Can't take money out of your children's mouths for one day for public spectacle or feed parents needs or wants. Buck stops with you and your girl bro and if she in opposition that is your first test of leadership and the future of your marriage.
2. How do you know that everybody in any society has one view on any thing. Because it can be argued that is a very big misrepresentation. A whole heap of people are out for self, but equally you can go plenty places where people of all colours and nationalities and ethnicities despise this mentality.
People say exactly the same thing about modern Caribbean and the influence of materialims and greater contact with the west. But same speed you will find people in numers articulating traditional norms and rebuking this new and negative development. It is against basic science and human nature to suggest that any core value can simply be wiped out. It can be forced on the retreat and equally it can come back again with full force. Such is social behaviour.
Therefore it is highly unlikely as a matter of FACT that the majority of black women do not have or desire or hold strong family values. Bro. I know crazy women who divorced on a whim, because their men were not exciting and work a day men who look after their families. Women who thought they were too hot for humdrum and could have it all and now would die for a man to marry them. The experiment has failed and time is flying....So if headbangers like that who were saying marriage is just paper can do a U turn, never mind more focused and mature sisters, especially when that is their ideal norm.
3. Nope we don't live in a vilage and if we did our community would be superior to what is now. But that does not stop the majority of people in marriages to stay married of all nationalities. By the way I don't know the data for black people in England and only have my eyes and those of others to go by. But I know in the US and it reflects what we know here. The majority of black people who marry, stay married.
Black people unless they are immature as some people marry young or things are really bad, tend to stay married. So what the media says it would suggest does not reflect reality on the ground.
4. What do you think are the most common factor or reason for divorce.. and what do you think can be learnt to avoid such mistakes?
I mean Ray Parlour wanted another woman which is not unreasonable in this culture for him to be divorced and open him self up to whole heap of things. I mean he could have gone to Bali and done a Mick Jagger or the CAribbean and being laughing all the way to the bank. His choice..
4. Would you not agree that cyncism can be both healthy and unhealthy in the incorrect context?
5. Leave the crazy women aside, because they are on their own journey and best thing to step aside and allow them to continue. But something you said, that you have met some really nice sisters. then jump to saying but the M word is not for a modern city man like you.
Several things. There a leap in logic between meeting nice girls and the rest of your statement. I don't understand given that I grew up in a city and came here when four so probably been liivng in a city longer than yourself what is the relationship between that and your views about marriage.
I mean if a woman is truly feeling you and you here, whether you live in the country or city does not seem to be an important factor. Or am I wrong?
Question and I won't press you as it is your right to ignore it. Is there not a possiblity that you are approaching the argument so to speak with a conclusion and not a premise or point of orgin and by that I mean not allowing yourself to develop that intimacy with a nice sister?
So you are possibly blocking off that journey which lead a woman to want to even enter that convseration. We communicate more by action or non action than words.. If you get my drift? If you have a close view on the matter you communciate that energy and women who aint slow will pick it up.
6. About possible selfishness. Hmmmm. Would you not agree that there are a million examples in human history and society where want of pure selfish motives, have led to the downfall of both the mighty and small? What I am suggesting is such a view not short sighted and in conflict with being wise? Being wise being a highly valued thing in most black cultures and goes with age and all kinds of stuff.
Do you think given the range of problems which anyone can face in one life time, from sickness, to challenges galore eg paying the gas bill or suddenly your roof caves in and a whole heap of life issues, which are not better handled by a team of two than one individual?
7. Given what you have said which I expected that we share the same core cultural expecations of what it is to be a man and to be respected as one in most parts of the black world, and foreign world for that matter on a basic minimal level. What definition of manhood would you now develop if you for argument sake said you were never going to marry?
How does that definition of masculinity help or hinder you in the social world and amongst other black men worldwide and the majority? Even poor starving men in Ethiopia still enjoy the honour of being men.
Does your preference pull you closer or intergrates you closer culturally to your people in Zimbabwe or any wherelse or the reverse.?
If you ever want children what are the implications for them and you etc if you are against marriage?. Will the orgnisation which evolves out of this new modern city culture be more beneficial to you or your children or the baby's mother? Do you take it for granted without marriage that your woman will not decide to have children for someone else? If so what are the implications for you as a man, or your children etc etc.
Just some thoughts on what you have said.
FB
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The Watcher
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Posted: Friday August 6th, 2004 19:15 |
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A good response @ FredB I will try to answer your questions
1. Most imprortant issue first bro. Never attempt to argue or persuade a man' whose mind is closed. But can sometimes make for interesting chat. I don't actually think your mind is closed.
LOL your right, its not closed... my opinion is one I have now but will probably change later...
2. Critical issue price of wedding...well don't think a coke can ring will suffice but take your drift. Firstly on a serious tip. The type of wedding you have as a man is actually one of the first public demonstrations of your leadership and quality of cooperation between you and the missus to be. And you can tell a whole heap about your woman and also the man in question how you handle that.
If a woman wants more than you can afford or willing to spend..Get another. Because you will know much earlier about your woman's values and priorities before that day ever comes. If girlfriend comes with fantasy island talk, then homie you know the kind of woman you are dealing with..And a concious man can decide how he moves, whether he can educate and influence, or start looking elsewhere.
My parents married back home but many of our family married here and weddings were very simple with small numbers of close family and freinds. They came here to make money not blow it. So never forget as a MAN you are a major player in how you marry. All this sh*t about its a woman's day is white fantasy. Its both of your day especially if you are paying for it.
Furthermore as an experienced man, even if family want to contribute, you are the boss or going to be and thank you but no thank you will suffice. People will respect you. Seen too many little boys get rolled into foolishness which indirectly forces them to spend more than they can afford..Can't take money out of your children's mouths for one day for public spectacle or feed parents needs or wants. Buck stops with you and your girl bro and if she in opposition that is your first test of leadership and the future of your marriage.
Sounds good and logical on paper but modern woman has been raised to believe she deserves and has a right to the big fat wedding with all the trimmings. Not all, but most harbour a big desire for the day to be a big as possible. As you say its a good way of discerning the quality women from the mindless one.
Test of leadership.... I like that. It will indeed become one and I intend to start as I mean to go on (if in that situation)
2. How do you know that everybody in any society has one view on any thing. Because it can be argued that is a very big misrepresentation. A whole heap of people are out for self, but equally you can go plenty places where people of all colours and nationalities and ethnicities despise this mentality.
Perhaps but as I said elsewhere, I base my opinions on what I personally have directly obseverved and if they dont cover every strata of society its because I havent seen everything. I have seen enough for me to feel as I do though.
People say exactly the same thing about modern Caribbean and the influence of materialims and greater contact with the west. But same speed you will find people in numers articulating traditional norms and rebuking this new and negative development. It is against basic science and human nature to suggest that any core value can simply be wiped out. It can be forced on the retreat and equally it can come back again with full force. Such is social behaviour.
Therefore it is highly unlikely as a matter of FACT that the majority of black women do not have or desire or hold strong family values. Bro. I know crazy women who divorced on a whim, because their men were not exciting and work a day men who look after their families. Women who thought they were too hot for humdrum and could have it all and now would die for a man to marry them. The experiment has failed and time is flying....So if headbangers like that who were saying marriage is just paper can do a U turn, never mind more focused and mature sisters, especially when that is their ideal norm.
3. Nope we don't live in a vilage and if we did our community would be superior to what is now. But that does not stop the majority of people in marriages to stay married of all nationalities. By the way I don't know the data for black people in England and only have my eyes and those of others to go by. But I know in the US and it reflects what we know here. The majority of black people who marry, stay married.
Thats interesting, I didnt know that one. Positive though.
Black people unless they are immature as some people marry young or things are really bad, tend to stay married. So what the media says it would suggest does not reflect reality on the ground.
4. What do you think are the most common factor or reason for divorce.. and what do you think can be learnt to avoid such mistakes?
I mean Ray Parlour wanted another woman which is not unreasonable in this culture for him to be divorced and open him self up to whole heap of things. I mean he could have gone to Bali and done a Mick Jagger or the CAribbean and being laughing all the way to the bank. His choice..
Its not always cheating.... People cite nonsense like "irreconcilable differences" which to me cover just about any disagreement under the sun. A frightening concept to me.
4. Would you not agree that cyncism can be both healthy and unhealthy in the incorrect context?
Most indeed! I walk in to everything with my big beady eyes watching everything
5. Leave the crazy women aside, because they are on their own journey and best thing to step aside and allow them to continue. But something you said, that you have met some really nice sisters. then jump to saying but the M word is not for a modern city man like you.
Several things. There a leap in logic between meeting nice girls and the rest of your statement. I don't understand given that I grew up in a city and came here when four so probably been liivng in a city longer than yourself what is the relationship between that and your views about marriage.
I mean if a woman is truly feeling you and you here, whether you live in the country or city does not seem to be an important factor. Or am I wrong?
You are wrong. The city is a lonely place where everyone is surviving and out for self. Strangers dont chat and communities are rare. I hardly even speak to my neighbours. We all do what is best for us. Most people say they like the idea of marriage but are thinking about what they can get out of it and how it would help THEM. The city shapes us and forms our mentality. Being 'streetwise' is such a cliche now but we are more suspicious of each other and more selfish than those outside cities. Less friendly too lol.
City women (like city men) are out for self. Im incredibly suspicious of them.
Question and I won't press you as it is your right to ignore it. Is there not a possiblity that you are approaching the argument so to speak with a conclusion and not a premise or point of orgin and by that I mean not allowing yourself to develop that intimacy with a nice sister?
Actually Ive been involved in a major relationship where I got as close as I could imagine being and might have started thinking of such things. Like I said my mind is not closed its just an opinion I have now.
I think thats what you meant?
So you are possibly blocking off that journey which lead a woman to want to even enter that convseration. We communicate more by action or non action than words.. If you get my drift? If you have a close view on the matter you communciate that energy and women who aint slow will pick it up.
Disagree, Im not aloof or standoffish.
6. About possible selfishness. Hmmmm. Would you not agree that there are a million examples in human history and society where want of pure selfish motives, have led to the downfall of both the mighty and small? What I am suggesting is such a view not short sighted and in conflict with being wise? Being wise being a highly valued thing in most black cultures and goes with age and all kinds of stuff.
Do you think given the range of problems which anyone can face in one life time, from sickness, to challenges galore eg paying the gas bill or suddenly your roof caves in and a whole heap of life issues, which are not better handled by a team of two than one individual?
Yes Agreed but where is the garuantee you will not be left alone anyway? Its just a gamble.... a BIG one.
7. Given what you have said which I expected that we share the same core cultural expecations of what it is to be a man and to be respected as one in most parts of the black world, and foreign world for that matter on a basic minimal level. What definition of manhood would you now develop if you for argument sake said you were never going to marry?
A poor one I must admit
How does that definition of masculinity help or hinder you in the social world and amongst other black men worldwide and the majority? Even poor starving men in Ethiopia still enjoy the honour of being men.
Its a low standing as an unmarried man I will agree but its safer for now.
Does your preference pull you closer or intergrates you closer culturally to your people in Zimbabwe or any wherelse or the reverse.?
Been out with two Zimbabwe women in my life. Parents knew each other on both occasion (my dad knew everybody damnit!!). This made them get all excited and expectant of big things before anything even develop... not for me too much watchfulness and people getting inna. Dont like people in my business. Zimbabwe culture is very open and Im very very private. I would never rule a Zimababwe gal out though cos they are the best in the world lol
If you ever want children what are the implications for them and you etc if you are against marriage?. Will the orgnisation which evolves out of this new modern city culture be more beneficial to you or your children or the baby's mother? Do you take it for granted without marriage that your woman will not decide to have children for someone else? If so what are the implications for you as a man, or your children etc etc.
Not very paternal.... Dont even like my friends kids. Would like the idea of having children but the reality I see isnt appealing to me.... now anyway. If I did have children then I would want to marry the mother and do things properly but thats a zillion miles away.
See in general the idea of marriage is just not on. You can deconstruct my ideas rationally and try to make sense of what Ive said but it wouldnt matter. You see my disaproval of marriage is not rational or logical. It just is. A few of my friends are married, very happy they are too but the vast majority of them and men I meet my age in general are very against the idea especially in this climate.
It would be easy for you to say 'I used to think like you once but I learned and blah blah blah' You didnt make that argument and I thank you. You see in the past men may have had the idea of one day getting married etc etc and that would be a dream or ambition to work towards, now I think most are put off and its a deeper issue than ageism.
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Posted: Friday August 6th, 2004 21:32 |
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@DM enjoy reading your post. Your'e a very honest brother and there is plenty power in that. Nuff respect. What you said about the city and how people live. Check this we have a new black family moved directly opposite us. Do you know to this day the woman has not said boo or hello.
Her husband, a brother safe. See him on packing the car for my game and cool. But the woman. She is a middle class black if you take my meaning. White newcomers will greet you but my girl social work manager probably think who the hell is he and what does he do. You can see it because these people are usually not very sophisticated or bright.
Particularly when she has seen me and I was in my rough manly clothes doing things with builders. My wife said she has seen my girl plenty plenty coming out of her BMW and averts her eyes. We are family car people, not matching BM's as they are. Poster picture buppy couple and Christians as well with bible in hand on Sunday going church.
Homie I just laugh kiss teeth and carry on with my business. Ain't got time. I come from here you don't and come and make them boys break into your yard and we will watch them do it... Think it is joke. All these houses got bars and what not on. We haven't and ain't going to either. Been here long time and know most of them boys on road of their family. So unless they are outsiders don't really have much worries. So we will see who has the last laugh...
So take your point. But what I do not like about this system. Its like a ship ,if you sit back it will take you where it wants. I actively go out and seek out my homies and if they don't reciprocate. I cuss them to get their act into gear. There are 12 months in a year and even a man with kids and responsibiilties can make time. Or we will organise something and invite them around with the kids. You have to conciously keep your people together.
You can simply drift from people in this town and why I said I am never going to subject my children to this as any permanent situation. As an immigrant I lived in an area that was a proper community. All our folks more or less came from the same place and if they came form different islands. Crew same way..That is why I supppose guys our generation did not really find getting good women as we grew up with them and nuff of them to.
So I take your point about city life. No good for human relationships on too many levels. Good for centralising buiness and infrastructure, museuems and places of interest..but not much more me thinks...
You made me laugth about your father and your Zimbabwean girlfriends about being "too inna"...Know what you mean. Its a very subtle balance which sometimes people forget in the excitement. The thing about dads, is they can love a woman for their sons, sometimes more than the son himself. LOL...
I often listen to my dad and uncles and they crack me. But what is really scary I hear myself saying exactly the same thing. What dads often mean I think, because I know what I am thinking when acting similar is this....Boy can't you see that is a hot and good woman and god if I had my life again....that woman would be locked down absolutely....and under my love..So to speak
So they can get a bit excited, without even knowing.
You should here my father back home when he is on a rant..."All these bueatiful girls about the place and these damn foolish boys wasting time and forming the fool".
Meaning boy give me my youth and I will show these boys how man flex with woman. I suppose its an agricultral society and culture and the thought of food from mother nature being wasted is deeply deeply offensive..
But true ting about Zimbabwean women. Have to say and go futher Southern Afrian women. Now I am very mindful of our treasures from different parts, so will diplomatic. FB is not partial and love the righteous African women from wherever.
But some of the nicest black women I have ever met are from those parts. Got no doubts about that. One of major blessing due to the war of independence in your homeland during the late 70's and early 80's was the mass influx of Zimbabweans and nuff nuff Zimbabwean women into this country and Pan African movement.
Well three of my homies being ambtious men, married Zimabawean sisters one time, no messing and live permanently in Zimbabwe and travel between the CAribbean there constantly.
So Zimbabwe is the place to be as you could do much much worse...
But my very truthful brother. Got plenty optimism where you are concerned and confident time will prove me correct.
Peace out.
FB
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The Watcher
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| Joined: | Tuesday May 11th, 2004 |
| Location: | London, United Kingdom |
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Posted: Saturday August 7th, 2004 14:32 |
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all my friends are married
every Tom and Dick and Harry
you must be strong
to go it alone
here's to the bachelors
and the bowery bums
and those who feel that they're the ones
who are better off without a wife
I like to sleep until the crack of noon
midnight howlin' at the moon
goin' out when I wanto, comin' home when I please
I don't have to ask permission
if I want to go out fishing
and I never have to ask for the keys
never been no Valentino
had a girl who lived in Reno
left me for a trumpet player
didn't get me down
he was wanted for assault
though he said it weren't his fault
well the coppers rode him right
out of town
selfish about my privacy
as long as I can be with me
we get along so well I can't believe
I love to chew the fat with folks
and listen to all your dirty jokes
I'm so thankful for these friends
I do receive
I was cracking up when I came across this!! You need to hear it to catch the full joke because the man sounds SOOOOO Grumpy LOL Ol misery guts ha ha.
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