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| Moderated by: Saida.M, safetyblitz, Raven, Miss Brighter Days, LadyDay, Kunjufu, Kibibi, Happiness, Dillinger, Breadfruit, Backatya |
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The Watcher
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Posted: Friday June 15th, 2007 23:16 |
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What does it mean for a grown woman to describe herself as a tomboy? Is she saying she is mannish? Enjoys things she imagines no other women do (and if so for goodness sake WHAT?)?
How come I'm meeting people in their 20s and 30s with old grandma names like Audrey, Edna, Mildred, Emily and I kid you not... Ethel. Black women for goodness sake. This is aimed at you older ladies who must have been smoking in the 70s to name babies like that. I think even Margaret is stretching it. Them's old women names. Imagine if you met a 20 or 30 something guy called Cuthbert or Reginald?
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Backatya
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Posted: Saturday June 16th, 2007 09:40 |
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@ Watcher
LOL......I hear you with the names. Though I shouldn't be laughing because my mother (well it was her aunt actually) gave me a godamn old-worldly birth name, associated more with the English aristocracy than with an African warrior for heavens's sake. 
Anyway, this one was directed at the women so I am out of here.
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Madam Butterfly
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Posted: Saturday June 16th, 2007 10:07 |
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In terms of the names thing, i say blame the mothers!! it tends to be "older" mothers who give their children old fashioned names, IMO. Luckily me and my sis's have decent names!!
As for the "tomboy" thing, i am in my >ahem< 20s and there are times when i refer to myself as a "tomboy" because i was kind of one back in the day.
But to be honest, what i REALLY mean is that i am not a typically, girly, frilly woman. I really can't stand pink and of the skirts i own about 75% are denim. Just not into feminine stuff, although in terms of interior design i am, which i know just makes me a contradiction!
But in terms of dress and behaviour i would not desribe myself as "feminine" or "girly". Although when you get to a certain age "tomboy" is ridiculous, so what do us non girly women call ourselves
In my case it was a reaction to my childhood. My mum made me wear ribbons and knee socks and buckle up shoes and sailor dresses, whereas my best mate was the only girl among 6 children and she got to wear jeans and trainers!! My mum would die before she let me wear those!! so when i got to secondary school i rebelled a bit, although culottes (remember those, ladies!) were a happy compromise for us both. So of course i lived in them!
What do men think of women who aren't super feminine/girly? Don't get me wrong, i am not "mannish" or mannish acting, just not girly.
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Backatya
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Posted: Saturday June 16th, 2007 10:43 |
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I know I said I was out of here (ok so I lied), but Madam Butterfly's interesting response compells me to ask a couple of questions:
Why is it that the when people think of the concept of 'feminity' or 'being feminine' the often think of it in terms of the 'typical' girly, frilly woman?
Why does it have to be a case of two opposites when it comes to how a woman describes herself anyway? In other words if she is not a 'tomboy' she is somehow this girly, frilly woman, or visa versa?
I have always thought that women are blessed in having the luxury of being able to 'define' themselves over a wide spectrum, ranging from the 'more-masculine orientated' at one end, to the 'more feminine orientated' at the other.
Not only that, but they don't necessarily have to plant down their stake in the one area. Take my wife for example. In some ways she (even in her own view) can be considered a women who veers toward the 'masculine' end of the spectrum. Yet in others, she expounds all the virtues of 'feminity' 'softness and subtely'. Also she can expound a 'femine sensuousness' capable of disarming a man (well certainly this one) at 50 paces.
I don't think she is unique (among women) in possessing this ability, as I think this is a characteristic 'unique' to the female species, which they have over men. You try, as a man, veering from the strong macho-type to the soft feminine-like type, and see what happens.
If anything the type of woman who shows she can tap into those diverse qualities of 'masculine' and 'feminine' get really noticed at the point of transformation. You get used to seeing a woman with her hair tied back walking round in baggy jeans and t-shirt, who is able to hold her own in her group of male associates. Then when you see her dressed to nines in the most stunning evening dress for the big event, it is totally disarming.
What it all boils down to is that women don't have to be a 'type' or stick to a 'type' but can skirt along the from one end of the spectrum to the other without losing the essence of their womanhood.
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Madam Butterfly
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Posted: Saturday June 16th, 2007 11:38 |
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Backatya wrote: Why is it that the when people think of the concept of 'feminity' or 'being feminine' the often think of it in terms of the 'typical' girly, frilly woman? OK maybe "frilly" was a lil exageration on my part, and maybe i am not qualified to define what "femininity" is, but in terms of how i perceive/desribe myself, i wouldn't include feminine. Some might describe aspects of my personality as feminine (am am ery quiet/non confrontational etc).
Why does it have to be a case of two opposites when it comes to how a woman describes herself anyway? In other words if she is not a 'tomboy' she is somehow this girly, frilly woman, or visa versa? Well even i think describing myself as a "tomboy" is an extreme description for someone of my age as i am not as "tomboyish" as i used to be. Hell i even paint my nails now!! (not colours though, french manicure. still can't bring myself to wear red/pink/purple!!) In terms of what most people think of as feminine, they get a picure in their heads, and i don't think i would fit it.
I have always thought that women are blessed in having the luxury of being able to 'define' themselves over a wide spectrum, ranging from the 'more-masculine orientated' at one end, to the 'more feminine orientated' at the other. See, now i would pesonally object to people perceiving/defining me as "masculine". I know there are some women who do fit that, but i am not THAT far down the spectrum!!
Not only that, but they don't necessarily have to plant down their stake in the one area. Take my wife for example. In some ways she (even in her own view) can be considered a women who veers toward the 'masculine' end of the spectrum. Yet in others, she expounds all the virtues of 'feminity' 'softness and subtely'. Also she can expound a 'femine sensuousness' capable of disarming a man (well certainly this one) at 50 paces. None of which applies to me, which is why i would not desribe myself as femenine lol
If anything the type of woman who shows she can tap into those diverse qualities of 'masculine' and 'feminine' get really noticed at the point of transformation. You get used to seeing a woman with her hair tied back walking round in baggy jeans and t-shirt, who is able to hold her own in her group of male associates. Then when you see her dressed to nines in the most stunning evening dress for the big event, it is totally disarming. again, not somethin that applies to me. I HATE getting dressed up, and always have since i was a little girl. And i hate dresses (much to the bain of my mother!!) And again, it's just another reason why i would not desribe myself as feminine. And i have never worn a pair of heels in my entire life, nor have i ever worn make up. My only consession is getting my hair done, and even then it is either braids or ghana braids (a type of cane row).
What it all boils down to is that women don't have to be a 'type' or stick to a 'type' but can skirt along the from one end of the spectrum to the other without losing the essence of their womanhood. I think the only thing about me that implies "womanhood" is my shape and breasts lol and i have spent my whole life playing those things down (developed waaaay too early). And i kinda like the part of the spectrum i am in, though i have to say as i have gotten older, as with most tomboys, i am starting to veer more towards the "feminine" (oh how i hate that word and i don' tknow why!! maybe because, in my own mind, it stands for everything i am not and thinking about it makes me some how feel as though i don't measure up).
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The Watcher
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Posted: Saturday June 16th, 2007 13:16 |
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It's the way we polarise things and make everything a situation of complete opposites. I can see how one would like to dissassociate themselves from such an amusing caricature of childish feminity (though I know several adult females who readily embrace that ideal with fluffy pink teddy bears at 30 FFS, think Mariah people) but one doesn't have to be a tomboy in order to do so.
See when I hear tomboy I'm think a young under 10 year old girl with scrapes on her knees from climbing up trees and rolling around in the mud playing soldiers with her brothers or something.
Last edited on Saturday June 16th, 2007 13:17 by The Watcher
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Madam Butterfly
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Posted: Saturday June 16th, 2007 15:06 |
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The Watcher wrote: It's the way we polarise things and make everything a situation of complete opposites. IMO it isn't the "polarisation" that bothers me, although i am now about to contradict myself by saying that it bothers me when i tell people i am not feminine and they automatically assume i must be "mannish". What "bothers" me, if "bothers" is the right word, is that people seem to have a fixed idea of what femininty is, and if you don't match it you may as well be a butch lesbian or a man!! I can see how one would like to dissassociate themselves from such an amusing caricature of childish feminity (though I know several adult females who readily embrace that ideal with fluffy pink teddy bears at 30 FFS, think Mariah people) now i will admit to owning a vast collection of stuffed animals collected since babyhood, and a couple are even pink and fluffy (oh the shame  ) but this is more a quirk of mine than anything to do with femininty!! (and i can't stand Mariah either, i don't care how many times Bone work with her!!) but one doesn't have to be a tomboy in order to do so. Perhaps these women lable themselves as such for want of a better word it sure sounds alot cuter than mannish lol
when i think of a feminine woman i thing high heels, make up, dresses, nail polish, "put together" hair do, simpering/flirty behaviour. None of that applies to me in the slightest ergo i would never desribe myself as feminine. Tomboy is too young and mannish is nowehere near the truth and too insulting. I think there is an automatic assumtion that young girls who WERE tomboys grow out of it by a certain age. But there are those who are simply a more mature version. OK, so they ain't climbing tress and scraping knees, but nor do they live their lives within the bastion of "womanhood" any more than they lived it in the bastion of "typical little girl". And "tomman" just sounds too ridiculous for words! perhaps being one of the non feminine myself, >>I<< should come up with a fitting term to desribe us?
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The Watcher
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Posted: Saturday June 16th, 2007 15:17 |
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Madam Butterfly wrote: perhaps being one of the non feminine myself, >>I<< should come up with a fitting term to desribe us?
Indeed. Or I'll imagine you running around in dennis the menace shorts with a magnifying glass burning ants in the sun....
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Madam Butterfly
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Posted: Saturday June 16th, 2007 15:58 |
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Now i know you were joking, but just as you have a somewhat fixed idea of what a tomboy is, so others have a fixed idea of what it is to be feminine.
OK, Bone used to have this group on their record label called II Tru, a female rap duo. Their first album (and a song from it) was called "New breed of female", often shortened to "New breed".
So how about it? or EnBee for short (as in NB for new breed).
speaking of II Tru, i would like to share something personal if i may (always ill advised on these forums but there you go!) Perhaps something to explain the mindset of us "EnBee's"
growing up my role models were (early) TLC, Boss, MC Light, Yoyo, Queen Latifah etc. All women who on some level could be desribed as EnBees.
Now i loved me some rap and hip hop, but i came up in an era when every other video featured some half naked video ho (admitedly it was not as extreme then as it is now).
Now, being a young, impressionable "EnBee" this had somewhat of an inpact on me. No way did i, as a young woman, want to be perceived in the same way as these women but at the same time they were held up as he "ideal" of woman hood, which i sooo did not fit (remember, i was young!!), so i went waaay over to the other side, which became particularly extreme between the ages of 16 and 19. From a distance you would think i was a dude (no mean feat with my "stack"!!) and it got to the point where if i put on a dress or skirt i would literally feel like a man in drag. I had real identity issues (tied up with other issues i had at the time).
I am over that phase now, but the afore mentioned women are still role models for me (though some have "femmed up" over the years).
But I was lucky to have them. Who do young EnBees have to look up to now?
I do have to say though, i have noticed lately, what with working within a predominantly female environment, my dress sense has "femmed up" somewhat (still won't catch me in a dress though!!). But i am the same on the inside as i always was.
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Abissinia
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Posted: Saturday June 16th, 2007 19:54 |
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Madam Butterfly wrote: when i think of a feminine woman i thing high heels, make up, dresses, nail polish, "put together" hair do, simpering/flirty behaviour.
I am all of the above (i mean the heels and dresses) lol but i would say that is a girlie trait rather than a feminine one. To me femininity is about how you carry yourself, the things that make you different to men such as the way you stand, the way you talk... basically things that come naturally to every woman (and no it doesn't have anything to do with being able to cook, clean either that's called something else). Errrm anyways Tom boy is/should be exclusive to little girls who like to get dirty and climb trees.... women who don't like the girlie things are not tom boys they are "non girlie women" lol or you can call your self sporty .
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Madam Butterfly
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Posted: Saturday June 16th, 2007 20:44 |
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i hate all sport (unless its basketball, then my participation is strictly as a voyeur .., er i mean viewer!) so i wouldn't call myself sporty either. To be honest i never really think about my behaviour in terms of how i stand/speak or mannerisms so i couldn't tell you if mine are feminine or not.
plus i tend to always be playing with/running jokes with the kids. it's hard to think of myself in terms of being a "woman" when i am back to being 10 years old everyday!
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Gmahogany.
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Posted: Sunday June 17th, 2007 01:10 |
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This is an interesting topic. I think that discussing notions of feminininity and what constitutes acting like a "typical" woman is tricky. A lot of the things that are accepted as being consisent with acting womanly are social constructions or learned affectations that have no inherent or natural connection to being a woman, like high heels or and make up. Most Women back in the 1800's didn't wear high heels or make up, most of the time, yet they were still women(maybe moreso than today's women in some ways). Those things differ from culture to culture as well as century to century. Many male drag queens can pull that whole over the top stereotypical "ultra feminine" thing off(heels, makeup,gestures and all) better than plenty of women, mainly because a lot of it was created by and is driven by them,(male fashion/make up designers/artists,etc). Some of them like RuPaul, even give classes to real women on how to walk/talk act more like women(a gay male's conception of how women should act, mind u),lol. That does not make them women(drag queens I mean),women, that does not mean that they even approximate the essense of women(though you can't convince some of them of this). I think the real things that make women different than men are not the things that can be put on and taken off, it has more to do with something intrinsic, an essence,imo.
Anyway, keeping with the drag queen theme, I mentioned on another thread one time that there was woman at a company I worked for some years ago, that was suspected of being a transexual,(a man who was in the post operative stage of being a woman). He/she was very attractive ,btw. The Dead giveaway for most people was how Ultrafeminine she/he acted, though as time went on, there were other reasons for suspcicion. The main thing, was that this person was so EXTRA with the batting of the eyes, and the other "feminine" affectations,gestures, that most people concluded that there is no way he/she was a real woman. In other words he/she was trying way too hard and focusing on the surface/superficial stuff, but missing the more subtle nuance stuff that the more perceptive people in the place were peeping, kind of like a white person trying to "act" like a Black person.
I think most women fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum that's being discussed. I know I do. At times I may highlight more of one thing than the other, depending on my mood, the situation and what I'm trying to accomplish . I've not big on heels(undoubtedly invented by a man), though do wear them on occasion. As far as clothes I wear what flatters me, no matter what I wear, it is abundantly clear that I am all woman; I couldn't hide that if I tried, so I don't.
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