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Kunjufu
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Posted: Monday August 28th, 2006 12:09 |
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It appeared to be very fashionable these days to write people off as either ‘lost’ or as ‘sell outs’ and in effect cast these people adrift from the main body of the so called ‘conscious community’…One such person who always seems to be getting tagged with this label is Black Power (BNV member). He, it seems appears to be the poster boy for the ‘lost’ generation the bogeyman whom everyone loves to hate. everyone Myself included, like to beat down on him and disassociate ourselves from people like him at every opportunity..
Whilst I would be the first to say that BP, often deserves much of the criticism aimed at him. I also think that its time to put the otherside, so I am also going to be the first to say that I do not think it is fair balanced or right to keep running him down like he or people like him are the problem within the ‘black’ community he is not!! I think it sanctimonious, pious and at time totally unfair to look down on people like him and to THINK just because we have book learning or have become active within the community that somehow we are ‘better’ or more deserving than people like ‘Black power’..
In fact I will go even further and openly say its just plain dangerous to throw people away in this manner... As far as I know BP..to put the positives of his character. Is a hardworking man, not a career criminal and someone whom I remember during the October Birmingham incident last year, was ready and willing to defend his community with his life…He was a person hurting and who hurt deeply at the way his community in Birmingham was being attacked and was ready to step up.... In fact it was all I could do, to talk him out of doing something very rash during that period…He has never played on this fact nor has he sought community kudos for this position, ever to my personal recollection..
The other BP I know is the person who also without any fanfare, unofficially moderate’s BNV by letting me know when idiots and fascist attempt to take the board down and does so CONSISATENTLY even after some of the shellacking’s he has gotten from me personally about some of his behaviours..
However just to get this right I’m not justifying or condoning some of BP’s thoughts and views, but at least he is open and honest and willing to admit when he is wrong, once someone shows him the errors of his ways...
What I am saying is that BP like many others, is like all of us, struggling to make sense of the world in a world that often does not make sense….He has consistently exposed himself and his views taken everything and I mean everything like MAN…and I know he won’t admit it, but he also learns from that experience and most importantly isn’t afraid to admit that he was wrong…So for me he is derserving of a lot more respect than he is currently getting credit for and I think it’s a real shame that some people only see’s what they think he doesn’t know..and doesn't do.....and not the person on a journey, or the growth he has made since coming to BNV…
I find myself wondering how we would have reacted and treated someone like Detroit Red, who admitted that at 21 he was ‘Satan’.. He openly admits that he was a drug pusher, Gambler, womaniser, a coon, who often went cooning for watermelon (his own words not mine), who was also into WHITE women in a big way, a Burglar and worse of all into Gun crime… I wonder if Detroit Red and his many other ‘n.igger’ incarnations had turned up on BNV today what would he be like? What would his views on woman be like, what words would he be using and would he be the sort of person we would look up to, or respect… How far apart who his character be from someone like BP, and lets remember BP isn't a gangster, a druggy or to the best of my knowledge a white womaniser... So Isn’t Detroit Red EXACTLY the type of person many would described as ‘lost’ as a ‘sell out’ and Not to be bothered with? Hand on heart how much time would we have given someone like Detroit Red, before we would have written him off as a lost cause...
What If Philbert his brother had ‘given up’ on Detroit Red after he received not one but two vicious and insulting rebuffs.. From a man happy to be a coon, who admitted to having a hustler mentality… What would have become of Detroit Red, that white woman loving, straight haired, drug addict Criminal?….. And here’s the important point Detroit Red didn’t suddenly see the light and became a convert to Africaness.. It was a long conversion that started when Detroit Red was first impacted by a fellow prisoner called Bimbi, (Not a very African sounding name is it?) He was further impacted by his brother Reginald who was sent by Philbert, when he realised that Preaching and 'love' wasn't enough and they needed to change tactics in order to save their brother from being a coon all his life…and…
In the words of the man himself he states: ‘Reginald knew how my street-hustler mind operated. That’s why his approach was so effective’ Detroit Red didn’t change into Malcolm x overnight, he was taught and moulded by the love of his family who took time and who were able to convert him from his Europeanised mentality… If it was clear back then why isn’t it clear to today that preaching, chastising without explanation or reasoning or casting aside people who do not conform to our views cannot and shouldn't be the only solution to difficult situations?
Why are some so quick discard and write off Black people like BP, and why are other even quicker to use others as a footstool on which to position themselves as ‘better’. For me there is no point in preaching a mantra.. if that mantra has no relevance outside of the clique from which it is spoken in reverence… If the mantra of Africaness cannot be relayed or translated to people like BP..and others like him…then it’s a bankrupt ideology that will deserve to die with the generation that cleave to it like a drowning man without a lifebuoy…
Last edited on Monday August 28th, 2006 12:59 by Kunjufu
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MarcusGarveyLives
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Posted: Monday August 28th, 2006 12:26 |
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Detroit Red became a different person by way of diligent and careful reading and study ... not by ridiculing or insulting those who encourage such behaviour.
I hope that is of assistance to you.
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stick-upKid
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Posted: Monday August 28th, 2006 12:43 |
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Kunjufu I could not agree more.
We are constantly on the search for perfect Africans.
We feel its easier to ditch anyone that don't meet our standards than to spend some time educating them.
The amount of times i've been called a coon myself it makes me laugh...
I literally can't sleep at night for thinking about african problems and solutions...
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DarkCloud
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Posted: Monday August 28th, 2006 12:51 |
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Interesting...
I could be wrong, but I guess this is a reaction to a thread on the ligali forum where BP has been tagged as being a 'fool' and ineffect 'lost'. My 1st reaction to that thread was, it smacks of cowardice and retrogression to open a topic about another forum elsewhere, when such topics (no matter how valid) would have been better served here. But I decided to put it down to immaturity and misplaced zeal.
All I can say is, anyone that looks down on others simply based on posts on a web forum, is being overly presumptious and shallow.
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Monday August 28th, 2006 12:54 |
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MarcusGarveyLives wrote: Detroit Red became a different person by way of diligent and careful reading and study ... not by ridiculing or insulting those who encourage such behaviour.
I hope that is of assistance to you.
Sorry but I beg to differ, Detroit Red as outlined in his own words was influenced to revisit his education and review his actions first by the Actions of Bimbi whom he met in Prison..(see Pg 247 of his Autobiography) and then later by his Brother Reginald who sparked his interest in Islam (see Pg 249)...
On Pg 245 Malcolm recounts: 'My first letter, I remember, was from my religous brother Philbert in Detroit, telling me his 'holiness' Church was going to pray for me. I scrawled him a reply I'm ashamed to think of today'
On Pg 248 Malcom also recalled that whilst in Concord Prison that his 'Brother Philbert, who was forever Joining something, wrote me that he had discovered the 'natural religion for the black man'. He belonged now. He something called the 'the nation of Islam'. He said I should pray to Allah for deliverence' I wrote Philbert a letter although in improved in English, was far worse than my earlier reply to his news that I was being prayed for by his 'holiness church'.
So two points are very clear from the words attributed to Malcolm he was a man who did ridiculed and insulted people..and had the type of mentality at that time of his lifethat we dislike today in others.
It is also clear from the Chapter called 'Satan' that Malcolm did not change by himself, his journey was sparked by at least three key people... who struggled to change him....
I hope the above enlighting in your recollection of the man.
Last edited on Monday August 28th, 2006 13:02 by Kunjufu
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Soulstarr
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Posted: Monday August 28th, 2006 13:02 |
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DarkCloud wrote: Interesting...
I could be wrong, but I guess this is a reaction to a thread on the ligali forum where BP has been tagged as being a 'fool' and ineffect 'lost'.
BP isn't lost. Anyone with a two eyes and brain cell can tell that from his posts.
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DarkCloud
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Posted: Monday August 28th, 2006 13:06 |
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Perhaps you didnt undertsnd my post. I did not way he was, and personally, I dont think so. I dont place judgement on internet personae.
I made a reference to a topic on ligali forums that inferred as much........
Last edited on Monday August 28th, 2006 13:09 by DarkCloud
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Monday August 28th, 2006 13:12 |
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DarkCloud wrote: Interesting...
I could be wrong, but I guess this is a reaction to a thread on the ligali forum where BP has been tagged as being a 'fool' and ineffect 'lost'. My 1st reaction to that thread was, it smacks of cowardice and retrogression to open a topic about another forum elsewhere, when such topics (no matter how valid) would have been better served here. But I decided to put it down to immaturity and misplaced zeal.
All I can say is, anyone that looks down on others simply based on posts on a web forum, is being overly presumptious and shallow.
Darkcloud: Just to be very clear I'm not attacking Ligali..nor the Poster who started that thread...They are entitled to their views and If i'm honest I have to agree with much of the sentiment put....I'd be liar if i didn't think they had a valid point..
However I didn't think BP has been fairly potrayed as a man...or the person I know..So i'm just putting the side that I've seen and appreciated..too often I think we like to dwell on the negatives of people and NOT reflect the positives...Black Power in his own way is as passionate about his race like any other man and I think that this needs to be said openly..
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Posted: Monday August 28th, 2006 13:23 |
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DarkCloud wrote: Perhaps you didnt undertsnd my post. I did not way he was, and personally, I dont think so. I dont place judgement on internet personae.
I made a reference to a topic on ligali forums that inferred as much........
Apologies for not clarifying! my post was in no way a dig at you or you post- which I clearly understood. I was just quoting and replying to the part that rings true on this board. BP infuriates a lot of people but those who consistantly refer to him as lost and a coon are clearly not paying much attention...
This thread will make for interesting reading and I feel the point Kunjufu made about some of our ideals about the "perfect afrikan" is extremelly important and valid. However, I can see this thread taking a very ugly turn so I'm trying to keep my comments to a minimum. There are a few people on this board that will be all over this thread like a dog with a bone and use it as the perfect arena to tear the poster mentioned to shreds with no real reason to it and ignoring the real issue that this thread presents, which I personally think is something extremelly important. Unfortunately, the example used makes me wary. Not because it was a bad example, but just cos I know how a few people on this board stay...
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DarkCloud
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Posted: Monday August 28th, 2006 13:26 |
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Kunjufu,
I didnt think you were attacking the ligali nor the poster. My angle is, if the poster indeed has a valid point, then the best place to thrash out such issues would be on BNV rather than on Ligali.
And I actually think the thread you have opened is laudable, atleast, for anyone that chooses to be objective.
@ soulstar,
I feel you.
Last edited on Monday August 28th, 2006 13:28 by DarkCloud
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Monday August 28th, 2006 13:29 |
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Soulstarr wrote:
This thread will make for interesting reading and I feel the point Kunjufu made about some of our ideals about the "perfect afrikan" is extremelly important and valid. However, I can see this thread taking a very ugly turn so I'm trying to keep my comments to a minimum. There are a few people on this board that will be all over this thread like a dog with a bone and use it as the perfect arena to tear the poster mentioned to shreds with no real reason to it and ignoring the real issue that this thread presents, which I personally think is something extremelly important. Unfortunately, the example used makes me wary. Not because it was a bad example, but just cos I know how a few people on this board stay...
Soulstarr: no it won't..my point simply not about BP..its about how we relate to each other as people....and if people either don't get that point or abide by the spirite of this thread then they won't be allowed to participate in this debate...
Throwing stones is bloody easy...any idiot can thrown stones...
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Soulstarr
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Posted: Monday August 28th, 2006 13:30 |
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DarkCloud wrote: Kunjufu,
I didnt think you were attacking the ligali nor the poster. My angle is, if the poster indeed has a valid point, then the best place to thrash out such issues would be on BNV rather than on Ligali.
I have to agree here too, I read the thread and actually found it to be a tad disrespectful... Why discuss something like that where the Ligali audience is much smaller than it is here? 
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jett Black
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Posted: Monday August 28th, 2006 13:34 |
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The only thing which infuriates me about BP is his spelling of the word etc.
ect,ect,ect,ect..............????????????
BP,I dun told ya once,I dun told ya twice.!!!!
Anyway I do have a POV on your post Kunjufu,don't have time to type it now,but will later tonight.
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Posted: Monday August 28th, 2006 13:38 |
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Kunjufu wrote:
What I am saying is that BP like many others, is like all of us, struggling to make sense of the world in a world that often does not make sense….He has consistently exposed himself and his views taken everything and I mean everything like MAN…and I know he won’t admit it, but he also learns from that experience and most importantly isn’t afraid to admit that he was wrong…So for me he is derserving of a lot more respect than he is currently getting credit for and I think it’s a real shame that some people only see’s what they think he doesn’t know..and doesn't do.....and not the person on a journey, or the growth he has made since coming to BNV…
Co-sign the above.
The struggle is not only about what we do together in groups/organisations; maybe the bigger battle is the battle with self.
I've seen BP develop his own understanding and analysis of our joint condition while here at BNV and to me that represents the essence of our struggle. The need to raise the political/cultural consciousness of individuals is directly related to progressive activism - progression in our movement overall.
Malcolm x once said, and I paraphrase, "if you give people the information they need about their condition the people will organize and do the rest".
That's leadership.
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Monday August 28th, 2006 13:51 |
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DarkCloud wrote: Kunjufu,
I didnt think you were attacking the ligali nor the poster. My angle is, if the poster indeed has a valid point, then the best place to thrash out such issues would be on BNV rather than on Ligali.
And I actually think the thread you have opened is laudable, atleast, for anyone that chooses to be objective.
@ soulstar,
I feel you.
Darkcloud: I understood your point..I was just making my stance....very clear to the wider audience and I'm going to make it again this is NOT a Liagli Vs BNV debate... nor should it ever be...that is the bit I personally find frustrating with people.. this constant need to create hierarchies of Blackness and consciousness, we had this previously with some members of the late EPN and other message board.. who constantly looked down on the membership of BNV as some sort of Trailer trash, imo there is simply no need for it...
At some point BNV like everything in life will come to a natural end, and if Ligali is the replacement, then I for one will be very happy and support it like I would anything else that is positive...
At some point my generation will past and the BP generation will have the baton, and if we do not struggle to make our mantra (that we think is soo correct,) work for that generation then imo in years to come.. Black people in the West will look back and reflect on our generation in the same light as the Dodo... throwing away people is NOT an option...
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MarcusGarveyLives
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Posted: Monday August 28th, 2006 14:05 |
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Detroit Red became a different person by way of diligent and careful reading and study ... not by ridiculing or insulting those who encourage such behaviour ...
after he had initially ridiculed or insulted those who encourage such behaviour.
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Sooofresh
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Posted: Monday August 28th, 2006 14:18 |
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MarcusGarveyLives wrote: Detroit Red became a different person by way of diligent and careful reading and study ... not by ridiculing or insulting those who encourage such behaviour ...
after he had initially ridiculed or insulted those who encourage such behaviour.
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ya get me!
beside BP is not lost, he is not an innocent *lets help him* he KNOWS what he is doing when he makes his posts, i refuse to victimize him as he is not a victim, he is just a wind up merchant, which is why me, and many have stopped taking his constant playful *humour* serious. Let him carry on.........it only reflects the diversity in black people...........surly we can't all be conscious..........
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Monday August 28th, 2006 14:22 |
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MarcusGarveyLives wrote: Detroit Red became a different person by way of diligent and careful reading and study ... not by ridiculing or insulting those who encourage such behaviour ...
after he had initially ridiculed or insulted those who encourage such behaviour.
Sorry but again I beg to differ, Detroit Red, did not suddenly become this 'diligent' person...and nor did become the 'careful reader or student' by himself..
As i've said..previously he was sparked to choose that path after the intervention of others.. Up until that point in his own words he was 'satan'.. Now me for that is a strange word to use to discribe oneself if he felt he was such a 'nice' human being...
Clearly his autobiography outlines the sort person he was during the period before being sent to prison.. I've also outlined clear examples where he certainly demostrated the ability to insult and ridicule members of his own family..and in particular one member who tried TWICE to get him to see sense..
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Posted: Monday August 28th, 2006 14:30 |
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I have an admiration for BP in the way he can start a thread and get everyone busy without any further contribution than his own opening post. But then there are many threads not worth the cyberspcae it's written in. If I had a one to one with him I'd really llike to get into the mind behind this red and high yella mentality....just to see how it evolved and what dictates it as I know a few people like this....but I guess that's what PM's are for.
So what are we saying here, as diverse Africans we all have to talk about the same thing....we can't be political and comical at the same time...there aren't lost souls among us....on or off line. That's like saying everybody can get involved in a debate about the scarifices made to get a university degree.
I'm a credit where credit is due person...I can have a gripe with BP and Le Moor in a debate and give them props in that same debate. I've tried to lead by example most of my adult life and yes I've inspired many but also attracted hypocrites and parasites so it doesn't matter what you do there will always be people looking for a scapegoat to justify their own ideology.
And please, don't watch Ligali, not in this context anyway. I know people running up under Ligali's batty and they are/were/will be the biggest hypocrites going. Don't watch the preachers and book readers, many only started practising last night because they were fed up of being on the recieving end of a pointing finger...they're only in it so they can start pointing their own fingers now....ask them when last they nyam a white batty and you'd get the shock of your life.
But then I kind of accept hypocrisy as a fact of life, it's only when hypocrites don't know they are hypocrites and want to earn stripes off my values that I may entertain and argument or two...but I can always walk away knowing what I stand for....and usually walk away with more unanswered questions from them, than they me.
Ligali have a political agenda and I'll be the first to say their forums are quality..if not quantity yet still many see their political agenda as reason to boycott. But then I've been told that any debate on Ligali which goes against the ethos of that political agenda...even for arguments sake, is enough to get banned...you can't have it both ways...but my respect for Toyin is too huge to try and earn stripes off his mission....in fact going there and posting threads about BNV is probably the most insulting thing you could do....what BN is down so let's all go to Ligali which we don't really support but the urge to gas is that great....c'mon....gedouta here!!
Stickup Kid said it best, the perfect African...unless we are going to the tribal or religious level, with no consensus on the guidelines which defines this why do we always seek perfection. If it's a question of where the heart is then I got love for evrybody here and Ligali....it's a pity the values that drive our ambitions are so different which I guess is a natural consequence of being too free to choose and control our own destiny.
Last edited on Monday August 28th, 2006 15:54 by Incognito
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Monday August 28th, 2006 14:35 |
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Sooofresh wrote: ya get me!
beside BP is not lost, he is not an innocent *lets help him* he KNOWS what he is doing when he makes his posts, i refuse to victimize him as he is not a victim, he is just a wind up merchant, which is why me, and many have stopped taking his constant playful *humour* serious. Let him carry on.........it only reflects the diversity in black people...........surly we can't all be conscious..........
Sooofresh: two points...I believe if you read my thoughts acurrately I've not painted BP to be a 'victim' nor have said that the criticism levelled at him was not warranted.. Just to make THAT obvious point.. What did is make simple comparison to highlight the dangers of THROWING PEOPLE AWAY like dutty water...
Second I've made this point before so I'll make it again quickly for the benefit of everyone...this is NOT a Ligali Vs BNV..debate..and its certainly not lets bash the character of BP.....anyone getting silly will be removed from this thread simple..just to be very clear on this point..
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Bredder Tukoma
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Posted: Monday August 28th, 2006 14:40 |
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Well since BP's mind has been laid on the BNV surgery table let me add my piece.
Damn I used to teef/ sell the odd bit of weed/ walk with a big knife and all other foolishness .. Most guys around my way used to at a young age. I doubt its a unique experience in any big city .. The vast majority have moved on and are sensible people without any mentoring scheme.../ or sudden awakening.. personally I think most people who are that way inclined to be concerened for their people are that way from formative years...people would probably be frightened to know what some "concious" brothers may of got up to in their younger days on here..
People are rarely so black and white to able to put them in a neat box. I havent heard BP glorify any of the above foolishness either...so what is the issue?
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Le Moor
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Posted: Monday August 28th, 2006 14:52 |
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Saying that this forum has a certain standard set for black people is an understatement.
The mentality at times leaves me in despair.
Last edited on Monday August 28th, 2006 14:53 by Le Moor
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Posted: Monday August 28th, 2006 14:52 |
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I will admit that I don't like some of his views and I have and will probably continue to criticize him for it, (though I've never called him a sell-out or it's equivalent; I reserve that kind of insult for Le Moor  ), but I don't look down on him nor am I looking to save him. If there is something about his personality that he would like to change, then he should look to make that change himself. However, if he is satisfied with the way he is, then he should be prepared to defend his views just like everyone else. So called "conscious" Africans have to defend their believes from the likes of BP on a daily basis so why are they now the victims of the black community?
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Sooofresh
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Posted: Monday August 28th, 2006 14:54 |
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Kunjufu
read the dam post and show me where i mentioned Ligali? or have u gone blind and jump to assumption, so save your silly threats to someone who has mentioned friggin Ligali..........if anything i believe it is YOU.
as i stand........their is nothing wrong with dude..........he is aware that his posts are windup, people want to DASH him because he winds people up and nothing to do with blacker than thou.......
anyway i wonder what happened to Fiery1..........remember Kunjufu..............cause as i remember she was another lost case who like BP had interesting views on *things*
eat your words
anyway i sure as hell aint wasting carnival day on some boppa..........Ciao!
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Le Moor
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Posted: Monday August 28th, 2006 14:58 |
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Aryek wrote: I will admit that I don't like some of his views and I have and will probably continue to criticize him for it, (though I've never called him a sell-out or it's equivalent; I reserve that kind of insult for Le Moor ), but I don't look down on him nor am I looking to save him. If there is something about his personality that he would like to change, then he should look to make that change himself. However, if he is satisfied with the way he is, then he should be prepared to defend his views just like everyone else. So called "conscious" Africans have to defend their believes from the likes of BP on a daily basis so why are they now the victims of the black community?
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Monday August 28th, 2006 15:04 |
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Sooofresh wrote: Kunjufu
read the dam post and show me where i mentioned Ligali? or have u gone blind and jump to assumption, so save your silly threats to someone who has mentioned friggin Ligali..........if anything i believe it is YOU.
as i stand........their is nothing wrong with dude..........he is aware that his posts are windup, people want to DASH him because he winds people up and nothing to do with blacker than thou.......
anyway i wonder what happened to Fiery1..........remember Kunjufu..............cause as i remember she was another lost case who like BP had interesting views on *things*
eat your words
anyway i sure as hell aint wasting carnival day on some boppa..........Ciao!
Soofresh Enjoy your day ok....see you later...
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Monday August 28th, 2006 15:24 |
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Ok Sooofresh has quite rightly made the comparison with BP and fiery1..whom I banned from BNV sometime back… this is a fair point that needs a response, now to be honest given the general view on people with dual parental heritage technically Feiry1 is not BLACK, however for the purposes of this reply I will treat her as if she was..
The difference between Feiry1 and BP. is quite simple. She was beyond reason and did not want or respect the boundaries to which she willingly signed up to.. And when I and the other Moderators tried to work with her on the issues she simply wasn’t entertaining it.. Therefore we were left with no other choice but to exclude.. In comparison BP, when I’ve told him about himself.. Doesn’t like it, argues fervently but always accepts the decision made..That is why he is still here and she is not..
to be honest the exclusion of other notible ex- Villagers would have been more relevant than using the example of Feiry1 which was very clear cut...
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CashMoney
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Posted: Monday August 28th, 2006 15:37 |
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