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The Mighty Mos Def
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Posted: Friday May 26th, 2006 23:12 |
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Liberiangirl honestly expressed the truth as she sees it. In no way did she denigrate the victim or prop up her assailant. Peacemaker picked up on the gist of what she was saying as well; when an African/Black person harms a white person, many Africans/Blacks, not all, react with much more righteous indignation than if the victim were African/Black. Want proof? Here's a video http://www.blackchat.co.uk/theblackforum/forum9/22022.htmlthat Prince Hakeem posted this week of a young black father being beaten and killed, look at the number of replies to that(5) and contrast that thread's response with this thread's number of replies(79). Please tell me what was different besides one victim being Killed(the African/Black man) and one simply being beaten(the white woman)? Why did one video stir up so much emotion from so many and the other cause such little reaction from a few?
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liberiangirl
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Posted: Friday May 26th, 2006 23:16 |
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Kunjufu wrote: liberiangirl wrote:
like I said to saftey, I posted the first thing that came to my mind. That comment was a little display of my dark humor, sorry I get it from my father. And no I am not a feeling person. I do not display emotions in situations I aren't necessary. And sorry, this was one of those situations..
Liberiangirl: I hear and understand your point..however here's mine...this is NOT about race, nor should it be about RACE..the bottom line is this, there is no doubt in my mind that if it were an old black woman in front of this man, he would have done exactly the same thing....exactly the same thing, so lets not get carried away with the notion that its ok to offset this behaviour by saying that whites wouldn't care either..We know that already!
However i fear in your haste to comment you totally missed the point, where ever this scum begins today with his violence i guarantee you it will not remain there, tomorrow it could be your relative or your mother he is beating down like that, for a score.. This is about the broken mirror theory, and the simple fact is people like that have no morals, and have no race alligence when it comes to their own needs..period!!!
Kunjufu I suppose you and I and others will never see eye to eye because I find it hard to express clearly my opinions on this subject mostly because of the simple fact that the moral standards I follow are not the ones that others follow. I did not miss the point, but only have tried to get others to look at it from a different perspective. Simply because i am not sypathetic to this woman does in now way means that i condone what this man did. No one is trying to deny that this man would have no commited the same crime if this had not been a black woman. But this is not about what the man would have done or could have done in another situation. What i have been trying to say is that i have no emotion to spare for this woman, especially if her attacker has been brought to justice.... And yes this is about race, Kunjufu. For everytime a white looks at that tape deep down in their minds they will be thinking "blacks are a bunch of animals" and it will only further their racist beliefs that blacks are simply a bunch of violent creatures whom the world needs to be rid of. But i suppose the point, among many other points I have tried to make, is that one white person will get more sympathy and outrage from what happened to him/her than the victimization of any black, even among black people. Blacks have been massacred over mere accusations of white women being raped. Sometimes i feel that africans are much too nice for their own good and continue to be so..... If we see hear about a crime on tv regardless of the persons color our hearts will bleed..... But many whites will only be outraged at a crime if it is one that is commited against their own. This is a fact that you can not deny Kunjufu...... Blacks have always been more humane when it comes to others, it is in our natures but whites even today feel absolutely no responsiblitly that their violent actions have had on our people. So if you choose to do so, all for the sake of your christianity and morality you can continue to pour your hearts out to this woman if you like, but just be mindful that while you thinking of the well being of their people, they are not thinking of the well being of yours ...... Millions of our people can die and they wont care... yet a drop of white blood is split and there is complete outrage...... Its about time we blacks start worrying about our own, and get off this white sympathy bandwagon. For we have to ask ourselves, Why is it in the media that the genocide of blacks can go unreported, yet when one white child goes missing and it is breakthrough news????? Why is it that one white person can be brutally murdered and people will be angry and crying tears yet people, even our own president can sit back and watch hundred of blacks drown and stuggle to survive after a national disaster??? WHY ARE THEIR LIVES WORTH MORE THAN OURS???? If you get nothing else from what i am saying, just think about this.
Last edited on Friday May 26th, 2006 23:38 by liberiangirl
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Friday May 26th, 2006 23:21 |
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DrunkMonkey wrote: Well let me ask you this Kunjufu... do you think on Asian sites they preoccupy themselves with videos of naughty negative asians? Do you think they do that on Latino sites? White people sites? Why are we navel gazing wallowing in negativity and evilness of ONE INDIVIDUAL and making this our issue of the day?
Where was all this outrage in previous threads on brothas dying in custody, attacked by racists etc... NOW people are upset? I'm not buying it Kunjufu. I think some people need to have a long hard think about why some things upset them more than others. It IS a racial thing.
Straight question..straight answer no.....But DM, my point wasn't never about should we take responsibility for this scum as a RACE.. I'm saying that as pure common sense, we need to be outraged.. We need to be concerned.. and We need to demand that people like that is caught and either helped or better still locked up..
What I'm saying is this..we need to operate the Broken Mirror theory..because tomorrow that could be my mother, your mother or someone else's mother... We should be outraged because its wrong thats it..
I do not see it as a fair comparison to link this video to that of deaths in custody, not do I think its fair or reasonable to pull the emtional blackmail card out.. To make people feel that their ought to be a hierachy of caring.. I think it totally wrong to keep blaming people for not getting the messahe when sometimes that message is either not presented properly or gets lost..
If people do not appear to feel as passionate about one killing over another, is it really the fault of the audience for not apparently caring enough, or the messenger for not explaining the relevance accurately..
If you want me to be blunt..I think the reason why there is a dispararity is because, some people use the same out moded and out dated tactics deployed twenty or thirty years ago...which translates as..you should care because the victim was BLACK, you should care because the perps were WHITE... Never however is their a question that asks us to examine or explore the circumstances...always we should accept the victim is a victim because he/she was BLACK... Black meaning good..White meaning always bad...
The problem is if I'm completely honest..that guilt trip approach to BLACK unity is wearing very thin now, and its time that committment to race unity is earnt and not EXPECTED as it appears to be now..
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Friday May 26th, 2006 23:32 |
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liberiangirl wrote:
Kunjufu I suppose you and I and others will never see eye to eye because I find it hard to express clearly my opinions on this subject mostly because of the simple fact that the moral standards I follow are not the ones that others follow. I did not miss the point, but only have tried to get others to look at it from a different perspective. Simply because i am not sypathetic to this woman does in now way means that i condone what this man did. No one is trying to deny that this man would have no commited the same crime if this had not been a black woman. But this is not about what the man would have done or could have done in another situation. What i have been trying to say is that i have no emotion to spare for this woman, especially if her attacker has been brought to justice.... And yes this is about race, Kunjufu. For everytime a white looks at that tape deep down in their minds they will be thinking "blacks are a bunch of animals" and it will only further their racist beliefs that blacks are simply a bunch of violent creatures whom the world needs to be rid of. But i suppose the point, among many other points I have tried to make, is that one white person will get more sympathy and outrage from what happened to him/her than the victimization of any black, even among black people.
Sorry LiberiangirL: but you soo do not get or comprehend the point I'm making at all... Get of the offsetting tip for a moment and stand back for just a second.
I'm NOT talking about having compassion for the victim as a WHITE person.. I'm saying that we should recognise that the perp, is a perp is a perp... and that he is probably an equal opportunity criminal..he will beat and rob ANYONE in his path..
I'm outraged at the savagery of his actions..I am most certainly not in sympathy with the victim, but even if I were in sympathy with the victim..how DARE you suggest that because I demostrate sympathy for a victim who is white.. It automatically means I care less for Victims who are African or that I'm unable to care for victims that are African..
How dare you suggest that just because ONE post about one WHITE victim got a lot of responses, that somehow it shows that Africans care more about Europeans than they do about Africans.. That is NOT true.. and its a dispicable charge to level at people here...
My view is simple, there is no difference in being outraged at this crime, because any outrage that highlights or focuses on criminality benefits us all... This has NOTHINg to do with being a Model 'ethnic'..it has everything to do with questioning behaviours that could and will effects my community EVENTUALLY!!!
Is that clearer for you now?
Last edited on Friday May 26th, 2006 23:35 by Kunjufu
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The Watcher
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Posted: Friday May 26th, 2006 23:36 |
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Kunjufu I personally don't usually comment on these things because I'm not sure what it's supposed to do. We ALL agree it's evil and that the perpetrator deserves the worst which could possibly befall him. Why does it need 30 of us to repetitivly state that? Are we pleasing ourselves with our united outrage?
The context is key. Here we are on a black website giving no attention to threads concerning us and yet we give full attention to this one?
What you seem to be saying is that the threads concerning us don't draw attention because being BLACK as a victim is no longer enough for us to empathise with and that a black victim must earn our sympathy... but we willingly and unreservidly show sympathy and horror at this?
This is a perfect example of what you said but in reverse. Black bad, white good. But it's acceptable to us since we swallow it readily without thinking of all else there is.
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Peacemaker
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Posted: Friday May 26th, 2006 23:37 |
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Miss Nellia wrote:
......and as for your supporters, stop the bullsh*t, wrong is wrong regardless of race,
Smart kid.
this man should not be patted on the back for his actions simply because his victim is white.
Nobody on this page has even come close to hinting that. Pure imagination.
If this was reported as an article in just text I can guarantee you that the response would have been slightly different but we watched it on video and it was disturbing...... end of.
Based on the current level of emotional reactions to mere words on a screen, you'd think that words have an even greater effect. I've already spotted one piece of make believe because of the arrangement of some of them here.
It's funny, I saw the other video thread of extreme violence the other day, how many replies to it? a mere six. That was black on black crime. The level of outrage in that thread is miniscule compared to this one. The man was murdered by four people no less in broad daylight, that was captured on CCTV as well. Not only was he beaten as bad as that old lady, he was shot afterwards just for the sake of it. That video was even more shocking, well it should be for people who are easily shocked. Are they though really?
It's just a damn shame that nobody really does care about the old lady in truth, just merely one person's reaction to the video. Which is what this thread is really about.
Just who are you thinking of right now? Certainly not the condition of the woman is it now? She might of died of shock for all you know, bruising of the brain certainly isn't out of the question? I already know what happened to the criminal. They always get the fame and attention first, mainly because we care more about expressing out our more base emotions first and foremost to people. People never let an opportunity pass to spew out pure hatred and anger, then the same people turn around and ask why do our communities produce people like these?
Not only that some of you are venting your hatred and anger out on an innocent who wasn't even involved in the video.
Caring communities have less episodes of violence in them by the way, Perhaps watching where you direct those emotion might help, lest they have a domino effect and then gets way out of control producing people just like in that video.
Remember, commune and ties. Not always a positive thing as you can see.
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The Watcher
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Posted: Friday May 26th, 2006 23:43 |
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Peacemaker wrote:
It's just a damn shame that nobody really does care about the old lady in truth, just merely one person's reaction to the video. Which is what this thread is really about.
Just who are you thinking of right now?
Now that's some truth right there!
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Friday May 26th, 2006 23:44 |
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DrunkMonkey wrote: Kunjufu I personally don't usually comment on these things because I'm not sure what it's supposed to do. We ALL agree it's evil and that the perpetrator deserves the worst which could possibly befall him. Why does it need 30 of us to repetitivly state that? Are we pleasing ourselves with our united outrage?
The context is key. Here we are on a black website giving no attention to threads concerning us and yet we give full attention to this one?
What you seem to be saying is that the threads concerning us don't draw attention because being BLACK as a victim is no longer enough for us to empathise with and that a black victim must earn our sympathy... but we willingly and unreservidly show sympathy and horror at this?
This is a perfect example of what you said but in reverse. Black bad, white good. But it's acceptable to us since we swallow it readily without thinking of all else there is.
Actually what I'm saying is simple...If I believe that we are not giving 'enough' attention to Black victims of crime..and I'm going to state right here and now, I simply don't believe that to be true.. The simple truth is this, as humans we can and do get desenitised to certain things if it occurs often enough..
I would suggest that we have welll into the hundreds, threads about Black victims here in the Uk, the USA and Africa... So if this is the case, is it possible to say anyting new or fresh, that han't been said off board or on BNV...a simple question. What I'm saying and meaning, is that unless we begin to find different ways to EXPLAIN the implications of these BLACK victims, and what it means to us as a whole, it is human nature that people MAY just flick through the thread..give a sign and then move on...
It doesn't mean they don't care, it could be mean they feel helpless, it could mean they feel overwhelmed by it all ...and yes it could mean that they just don't see the relevance to themselves... What it shouldn't automatically mean is that they don't care...thats too much of a leap...
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Posted: Friday May 26th, 2006 23:45 |
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@ Kunjufu
I can understand that. The helplessness thing. That makes sense at least.
Which is why the contrast with todays reactions here wound me up...
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liberiangirl
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Posted: Friday May 26th, 2006 23:54 |
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Kunjufu wrote: liberiangirl wrote:
Kunjufu I suppose you and I and others will never see eye to eye because I find it hard to express clearly my opinions on this subject mostly because of the simple fact that the moral standards I follow are not the ones that others follow. I did not miss the point, but only have tried to get others to look at it from a different perspective. Simply because i am not sypathetic to this woman does in now way means that i condone what this man did. No one is trying to deny that this man would have no commited the same crime if this had not been a black woman. But this is not about what the man would have done or could have done in another situation. What i have been trying to say is that i have no emotion to spare for this woman, especially if her attacker has been brought to justice.... And yes this is about race, Kunjufu. For everytime a white looks at that tape deep down in their minds they will be thinking "blacks are a bunch of animals" and it will only further their racist beliefs that blacks are simply a bunch of violent creatures whom the world needs to be rid of. But i suppose the point, among many other points I have tried to make, is that one white person will get more sympathy and outrage from what happened to him/her than the victimization of any black, even among black people.
Sorry LiberiangirL: but you soo do not get or comprehend the point I'm making at all... Get of the offsetting tip for a moment and stand back for just a second.
I'm NOT talking about having compassion for the victim as a WHITE person.. I'm saying that we should recognise that the perp, is a perp is a perp... and that he is probably an equal opportunity criminal..he will beat and rob ANYONE in his path..
I'm outraged at the savagery of his actions..I am most certainly not in sympathy with the victim, but even if I were in sympathy with the victim..how DARE you suggest that because I demostrate sympathy for a victim who is white.. It automatically means I care less for Victims who are African or that I'm unable to care for victims that are African..
Kunjufu that is not what i am trying to say at all . What I am trying to say is that "They dont care about us, so why should we care about them"? That is mainly the gist of what i am saying. And you are one of the last people who I would suspect cares more about africans lives than whites , but that does not mean that there are blacks out there who dont, for i believe that this is one of the many ways that blacks have been brainwashed: to underestimate our own self worth, putting whites and their livelihood on a pedestal, and that was one of the points I was trying to bring up today. For would you ever see a thread on a white, asian forum showing a video where a black person is getting mugged and beaten? And if you did, do you think that there would be the level of outrage shown there that there is here?
How dare you suggest that just because ONE post about one WHITE victim got a lot of responses, that somehow it shows that Africans care more about Europeans than they do about Africans.. That is NOT true.. and its a dispicable charge to level at people here...
Actually it was DM who brought up the point as to how many responses this thread got vs others threads concerning issues with african peoples.....
My view is simple, there is no difference in being outraged at this crime, because any outrage that highlights or focuses on criminality benefits us all... This has NOTHINg to do with being a Model 'ethnic'..it has everything to do with questioning behaviours that could and will effects my community EVENTUALLY!!!
Is that clearer for you now?
Last edited on Friday May 26th, 2006 23:59 by liberiangirl
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Saturday May 27th, 2006 00:02 |
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DrunkMonkey wrote: @ Kunjufu
I can understand that. The helplessness thing. That makes sense at least.
Which is why the contrast with todays reactions here wound me up...
DM; Can I say what I think this THREAD is really about....how many times have we said openly that at least black people wouldn't do this or that...because when we compare outselves to Europeans...we always class them as the aggressor, the Barbarian.. Historically we are or were the supposed compassionate race..isn't that true..
But here we have a BLACK man, commiting an act so barbaric, so savage it truely shocks even the most harden of us... He didn't just rob that woman he callously and wickedly beat the crap out of her even when there was no need to, and then he walks off calmly leaving the victim lying on the floor.. Now come on if you had been told that verbally, none of us would or could believe any Black person could be caperble of such an act..
So when you see it up front and personal, and then its put up on a joke forum, to say that is shocking would be an understatement... What this points out to me at least, that the people coming up behind me, have a callous disregard for all the values we once stood for..and for me at least its frightening.. Because i know he would have done the same thing had that woman been BLACK.. THATs the bit that shocks..not the colour of the victim..
The shock is who did that act and the way it was executed...and YES we should be CONCERNED as a culture..very concerned!!!
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Saturday May 27th, 2006 00:06 |
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liberiangirl wrote:
Kunjufu that is not what i am trying to say at all . What I am trying to say is that "They dont care about us, so why should we care about them"?
Seriously Liberian Girl: you are now getting on my nerves now.. can you go back and reread what i actually wrote.
you point above is immaterial to my argument...geez!!!
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Posted: Saturday May 27th, 2006 00:10 |
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Kunjufu wrote: DrunkMonkey wrote: @ Kunjufu
I can understand that. The helplessness thing. That makes sense at least.
Which is why the contrast with todays reactions here wound me up...
DM; Can I say what I think this THREAD is really about....how many times have we said openly that at least black people wouldn't do this or that...because when we compare outselves to Europeans...we always class them as the aggressor, the Barbarian.. Historically we are or were the supposed compassionate race..isn't that true..
But here we have a BLACK man, commiting an act so barbaric, so savage it truely shocks even the most harden of us... He didn't just rob that woman he callously and wickedly beat the crap out of her even when there was no need to, and then he walks off calmly leaving the victim lying on the floor.. Now come on if you had been told that verbally, none of us would or could believe any Black person could be caperble of such an act..
So when you see it up front and personal, and then its put up on a joke forum, to say that is shocking would be an understatement... What this points out to me at least, that the people coming up behind me, have a callous disregard for all the values we once stood for..and for me at least its frightening.. Because i know he would have done the same thing had that woman been BLACK.. THATs the bit that shocks..not the colour of the victim..
The shock is who did that act and the way it was executed...and YES we should be CONCERNED as a culture..very concerned!!!
I wasn't shocked. Why should I be? I know what crack does. I wasn't shocked when I heard about the level of rape in congo or the amount of child amputees in Sierria Leone. The deliberate starving of people in Sudan and the murder rate in Jo'burg or Cape town or any other atrocity that as you say SHOULD CONCERN US. I'm not suprised. Maybe some people have a weird rosy glow of black folk ("aw we don't do that") but I don't. We're people and people can be cruel and wicked to amazing degrees.
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liberiangirl
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Posted: Saturday May 27th, 2006 00:13 |
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Kunjufu wrote: liberiangirl wrote:
Kunjufu that is not what i am trying to say at all . What I am trying to say is that "They dont care about us, so why should we care about them"?
Seriously Liberian Girl: you are now getting on my nerves now.. can you go back and reread what i actually wrote.
you point above is immaterial to my argument...geez!!!
But whether or not its irrelavent to your argument makes no difference, it is most certainly relavent to mine. I guess we just have to settle on the fact that we both do not know what the hell each other is talking about, LOL because its seem as if you have most certainly misunderstood me....
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Posted: Saturday May 27th, 2006 00:59 |
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@DM have you ever asked yourself whether you are racist or not.?
Sometime back you expressed the same feelings on the Borg Vs McEnroe thread that it shouldnt be here as it concerns two white people.
If you ever have children and hear them discussing two white footballers and whos best, what are you going to do, ground them, send them to bed without any supper perhaps? You would have to do something similiar as its exactly the same thing.
Exactly what are you afraid of. Wait a second. Isnt it supposed to be white people who are over run with fear about us.
Dont let our years of oppression tip your balance of righteousness. Two wrongs dont make a right. A simple, tired old cliche but accurate as fart.
Of course you wont accept these words as you're Drunk Monkey and your ears are hard.
@ anyone who is comparing this video to the black on black violence in the food store.
Fair point but one i believe can easily be explained. Yes we have become desensitised over this sort of violence, but we havent yet over old ladies being bashed up. Thats it in a nutshell, nothing to do with reacting more cos its a white lady. The result would have been the same if ANY old lady was bashed up im sure. There is something about an old lady getting it which deeply touches our emotions. Maybe something to do with our mother/child instincts bonded at birth. If we saw it everyday no doubt even this we would become desensitive to eventually.
There is no honour in wearing our black pride to an extent which causes us to over look an evil such as in this video. What i mean by this is by saying 'You cannont spare a thought for this WHITE lady whilst our own are sufferring'. Yes our peoples plights should concern and touch us, but so should seeing this video. If your instincts instantly reverts away from the evil in this video, then your balance and judgement has somewhere on the scales of righteousness tipped too far the wrong way.
Last edited on Saturday May 27th, 2006 00:59 by Le Moor
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Posted: Saturday May 27th, 2006 01:10 |
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Clearly Le Moor you haven't read a thing I've said. It's OK. Seems to be a common trait recently...
People respoding to what they think you said so they can say their piece.
A few hours ago Prince Hakeem posted a thread about white on black violence. Wanna know how many replys it has? ZERO. ZILCH. NADA.
Clearly the focus here is messed up. You say we haven't seen old ladies bashed up. Fair enough. But we've read of 1000s of women daily raped, children soldiers being amputated and so on. Pictures of 8 and 10 years olds walking about with one leg and no arms because rebels didn't want them to grow into enemies... None of that gets a murmur. What is the key difference between those THOUSANDS and this one that this gets a big response? Think carefully.
You are silly to bring up the McEnroe thing. I did that because previously I was told off for talking about Gerrard or something like that so my protesting against the tennis players was an inquiry into why some things allowed but not others. Also thin end of the wedge. It has no relevance here anyway.
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Le Moor
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Posted: Saturday May 27th, 2006 01:19 |
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DrunkMonkey wrote: Clearly Le Moor you haven't read a thing I've said. It's OK. Seems to be a common trait recently...
People respoding to what they think you said so they can say their piece.
A few hours ago Prince Hakeem posted a thread about white on black violence. Wanna know how many replys it has? ZERO. ZILCH. NADA.
What the one i referred to in my post you mean. And IM THE ONE who doesnt read through posts.
Clearly the focus here is messed up. You say we haven't seen old ladies bashed up. Fair enough. But we've read of 1000s of women daily raped, children soldiers being amputated and so on. Pictures of 8 and 10 years olds walking about with one leg and no arms because rebels didn't want them to grow into enemies... None of that gets a murmur. What is the key difference between those THOUSANDS and this one that this gets a big response? Think carefully.
I already explained the key difference and perhaps why it has touched emotions. YOU READ THE POST.
You are silly to bring up the McEnroe thing. I did that because previously I was told off for talking about Gerrard or something like that so my protesting against the tennis players was an inquiry into why some things allowed but not others. Also thin end of the wedge. It has no relevance here anyway.
Silly to who. It has every relevance which is why i brought it up, but like i said i dont expect you to accept my words as your DM and your ears are hard.
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Aryek
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Posted: Saturday May 27th, 2006 01:19 |
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| That's sad, but this isn't the first or the last time that anyone has attacked a senior. A while ago in Toronto there was a white rapist going around targeting old women who were living by themselves. A psychopath is a psychopath regardless of race.
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The Watcher
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Posted: Saturday May 27th, 2006 01:26 |
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Le Moor wrote: DrunkMonkey wrote: Clearly Le Moor you haven't read a thing I've said. It's OK. Seems to be a common trait recently...
People respoding to what they think you said so they can say their piece.
A few hours ago Prince Hakeem posted a thread about white on black violence. Wanna know how many replys it has? ZERO. ZILCH. NADA.
What the one i referred to in my post you mean. And I | | | |
