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Tahliba
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Posted: Wednesday September 21st, 2005 22:42 |
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Ok the ages of these children is 7-12years old [apart from the dubious prices details] I more or less put out everything that was on the flyers.
The promoter going by the name of Tony I spoke to claimed that boys will be allowed to enter, as he's been approached by many people saying their son can dance what about the boys. However there is a seperate contest for the boys.
It is funny but both promoters jumped on the perv thing, which I only mentioned in passing and isn't the whole issue for me, but is still an issue-where will these recordings end up?
In a conversation this afternoon Mr T claims that the 'community was canvassed and there is a demand for this sort of contest' It is apparently big in London and JA.
My issue is the impression this sends out. Look at the situation our communities are in and this is what we want to promote for our babies, because any of you that have children would know that age group are babies. I think I would have been less outraged if it had been 12-16yr olds, but there again maybe not.
The promoters have lied about sponsors, lied about the involvement of the charity. [even lied about the cost of the flyers-if not to me than to each other]
Ok what about beauty pagents and the like? With the exception of the States they are not the norm in the black community.
As for carnival the dress and dance of the children in these parades is one of the reasons I don't take my children to them...I don't want my daughter or son to grow up thinking this is exceptable behaviour whatever the justification.
Ok what about dance rituals in Africa or the African community? We are not in Africa and we haven't been there for some 500yrs, it is not the same thing.
Our children are under achieving in education,[and don't be fooled that girls are doing better than boys-given how badly the boys are doing that is nothing to brag about] running around in gangs and carrying and using guns, taking and trading drugs, single parenthood, teenage pregnancy ect ect
Surely we can and should come better than a 'dancehall competition for 7-12yr olds. Come on a dance competition a talent competion But no, a dancehall competition, dancehall. And dress that sh*t up anyway you like about it isn't always sexual, it's cultural whatever. Children have no buisness in dancehall, 'big people tings'.
So even if you made sure the music lyrics were appropriate and the children were dressed appropriately and there was no filming I would still be against it.
7-12 year old girls are at an important time in their education, they are impressionable to the point of being sponges, they shouldn't know anything about dancehall other than it is some place their parents go for a night out.
What are we telling them it is ok to aspire to become a dancehall queen? What will they do with this talent to dance the latest dancehall moves? Take up a career in music video's no doubt.
Have any of you study our representation in the media throughout history-it goes back much further than MTV base.
No I wouldn't allow my child to enter or attend such an event, but I bet in the weeks leading upto it and following she will pick up on it and the dance moves from the kids in the playground who will be entering/attending. So I think I have a right to object.
Filthy minds of adults?
What about the moral guidence from adults, because that is what this is about. You know if this was being organised by young kids by them for them [which in someways happens] then there would be less outrage from me. But this is adults putting ideas into the minds of the young.
Having said all that, to be honest I doubt this particular contest will actually take place...I have my suspicions
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IYALLAH.
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Posted: Wednesday September 21st, 2005 22:54 |
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It doesnt mean becasue a child likles to dance that that is all they can be ???
Why cant they be an intelligent child who has different aspirations but likes music / dance like most children do?
Do you know how many professional / educated people still love dancehall etc. Not only "drug selling / gun wielding / blue weave wearing / 10 babyfather having Yardies" listen to it (sarcasm).
We always have this thing that we are supposed to be so mono-dimensional!!!
So if your daughter wanted to do ballet / gymnastics would you tell her no, becasue she has to wear a leotard??
Yes we can come better than just dancehall competitions, we are multi skilled people. I hear you with that.
p.s. African dancing still is happening even though WE are not there!!
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Tahliba
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Posted: Wednesday September 21st, 2005 22:57 |
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IYALLAH. wrote:
Now on the case of the paedophiles, i know some of them may like to see young girls like that, but a paedo is a paedo, and the majority of the little girls that have suffered at their hands were not in a dancehall comp, werent dressed in a sleezy fashion, and werent too aware for their age. Its the innocence paedophiles like.
I have to ask this Iyallah, have you or do you work with in anyway victims of paedophiles? a paedo is a paedo,
Your statement suggest a very restricted understanding of paedophiles various behaviour patterns.
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Tahliba
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Posted: Wednesday September 21st, 2005 23:43 |
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IYALLAH. wrote: It doesnt mean becasue a child likles to dance that that is all they can be ???
Can't disagree with that. But if it is just about children expressing their artistic talents, why not a talent show or even competition? [ putting aside fostering Unity]
Why cant they be an intelligent child who has different aspirations but likes music / dance like most children do?
Again agreed, of course they can and should. But children don't develope aspirations out of a vacum, they need to be inspired [positively] And for me personally a 'dancehall competition for 7-12yr old girls, doesn't seem to fit with being positively inspired.
Not saying they shouldn't dance or even hold their competitions but let them dictate the runnings of these, let it be part of their harmless play, their learning, their developement.
Do you know how many professional / educated people still love dancehall etc. Not only "drug selling / gun wielding / blue weave wearing / 10 babyfather having Yardies" listen to it (sarcasm).
Yeah I know, I even know some people who are not 'professional/educated that still love dancehall [don't know what ect is?] But not sure what point your making here, have I at some point made reference to the types of people that attend dancehall gigs? What Idid say, was it is, adult t'ings. Did your parents never have to pull you up about putting yourself in 'adult t'ings' or 'big people buisness'
We always have this thing that we are supposed to be so mono-dimensional!!!
So if your daughter wanted to do ballet / gymnastics would you tell her no, becasue she has to wear a leotard??
As said how these children will be dressed is not the issue.
Yes we can come better than just dancehall competitions, we are multi skilled people. I hear you with that.
Now the above should have ended with But and been your first statement.
So if we can come better than that why aren't we? And why when we don't, do we sit back and allow it, condone with our silence
p.s. African dancing still is happening even though WE are not there!!
It happens still here. I acknowledge that even dancehall moves evolved from the tradition of dance we brought with us in those slave ships. That journey and time have changed the cultural significance of dance for us.
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IYALLAH.
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Posted: Wednesday September 21st, 2005 23:49 |
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@ Tahliba
I know victims of paedophiles, I myself have nearly been a victim of a paedophile on more than one accasion as a child (if that is first hand enough for you), and as it has been stated before that anyone who has that in them will do it regardless.
That is what i meant by a paedo is a paedo.
That is the same pervert that would try to attack someone on the way to school in a long skirt with a jumper!! Just llike a rapist does not only attack a woman in a mini skirt.
Paedos dont necessarily like children that look / act like adults, they like KIDS, that is the whole point. So unless kids can stop appearing as kids, you cant stop the actions / thoughts of a paedo.
Stay there thinking about paedos at a dance comp. Paedos are more likely to be in your house!! A brother / husband / a male friend / an uncle / family friend. The people that can gain trust and abuse it.
Last edited on Wednesday September 21st, 2005 23:52 by IYALLAH.
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COLTRANE
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Posted: Wednesday September 21st, 2005 23:58 |
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I now see the connection btween supporters of CARNIVAL in blacknet village and these NASTY POSTERS...i wonder if they will agree their children be used in those posters let alone going around in those naked shows..of so called carnival...what ever hapenned to decency?
i think the mr T guy might be even a peadophile
I am doing my on research on this and will come back with more info...though I suspect 1xtra might be involved..never say never
Last edited on Thursday September 22nd, 2005 00:01 by COLTRANE
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Posted: Thursday September 22nd, 2005 00:09 |
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athaba wrote: Backatya - I didn't mean to insult anyone, but it's still true what I said. This is what happened when everyone was up in arms over children's clothes, (little ra-ra skirts and tops showing their midriff), in the 80's!
All I saw then was adults seeing things that just wasn't there!
To the kids it's just dancing.
But someone rightly said we should wait and see, because a) We don't know what is really happening and more imp. b) We don't know the ages of these 'children'.
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I am not sure you would agree with your daughter wearing a PLAYBOY top would you?
guys this thing is wrong and no need to wait for any explanation..we have eyes to see ...
Carnival+Dancehall=exploitation of women under pretext of culture and entertainment which of course is sex oriented ...nothing wrong with sex...hell I love sex but lets not expose SEX to children...its already messy oput there so its achance for blacks to amend this
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Kibibi
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Posted: Thursday September 22nd, 2005 01:11 |
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Those who are concerned about the type of dancing that will take place have every right to be. I was in Jamaica very recently and saw some of these dancehall competitions for girls...the girls were dancing provocatively-in particular a girl child who looked about 5-and was encouraged by the adult host (who was also female)...they were both wining and bumflicking...and the crowds were going wild. Earlier this year I watched a documentary about Jamaica, one of the clips was of a boy of about seven seriously wining with a woman old enough to be his mum-it looked like a family BBQ. He was grabbing her waist and gyrating from behind.
Im bringing up these points because it is big in Jamaica and the concerns that people have over here about the type of dancing do not seem evident in what I have witnessed in Jamaica. In fact the adult like dancing is encouraged-dare I say expected.
I like dancehall music and I must say I am impressed with SOME of the ways these women are able to move and control parts of their body HOWEVER, it beomes a completely different issue when children are involved. I do hope that the focus of this competition is more on the 'choreographed' dance movements than the freestyling wining and gyrating.
*But also shouldnt the same concerns shown here be expressed over soca and carnival as well? 
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Posted: Thursday September 22nd, 2005 01:53 |
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| Very good points Black beauty, I have children so I can understand it from a parents point of view, but sometimes we see stuff that kids dont even acknowledge, I had my 2 yr old daughter in the room with me the other day and Ciara (oh) came on, now how she was dancing, my daughter tried to copy her and believe it or not, some of the moves were almost sexual, but my baby was just dancing...I saw it as just a dance, but I can see if she was trying to do all that at a family party, I dont know if I'd be laughing. If so what about African dances, cos I seen some very provocative dancing that way, but its just a dance, its a shame about the blasted paedo's, as a parent you always have to worry about that in this modern society.
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Posted: Thursday September 22nd, 2005 13:58 |
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Everyone has some good points and opinions BUT it is one thing for children to be in the house practicing with their little friends or in the front room to Beyonce or at Aunty Cynthia's 50th birthday party - but i think the point is does it need to be showcased and televised?
For WHAT or THOSE benefit? Does the promoter love kids so much that he just HAD to promote and spend "thousands" getting this organised? Or is he trying to make a quick buck? Is it NECESSARY to have such a competition? Is it really that CUTE to see little Shaaneqia bruking out in front of the camera?
No - I think not!!!
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Backatya
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Posted: Thursday September 22nd, 2005 18:10 |
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Warning......one of my long post coming!
@ Athaba
Firstly let me say that whatever your intention, the statement about 'adults projecting their filthy minds on to children' is way out of order when referring to people who have concerns about the influences and conditioning to which our children are subjected to in their formative years. Furthermore, it smacks of a tactic long used by, for example, those who seek to 'spoil' debate (or are simply too lazy to debate reasonably) when responding to people who speak out against the 'practice' of homosexuality. How often have you heard such comments as "Well you must have an issue with your own sexuality that homosexual concerns you so much"? It's the same tactic here.
Just because you don't agree with, or cannot see, the point of view of those who have concerns for what they see as the 'sexualisation' of our children is no reason to level accusations about 'cleanliness' of their mind.
Anyway not to labour that point let get on to my main point.
As this thread has moved on somewhat since my last comment, this post is not specifically addressed to you per se but generally to all those who see this as only dancing.
I want to make it clear that my 'objection' isn't heavily based on the 'fear-of-paedophile-looking-in' factor. Basically I feel the sick nature of paedophilia is such that it is not to any real degree dictated by the way children are presented. But then again I am not an expert on the psychological make-up of the paedophile so I may well be wrong. Nonetheless that is not the real basis of my 'concerns' for this kind of event/contest.
What I feel those who see it as only dancing are failing to appreciate is that it is not just a matter of how children (and we are talking about children here) are looked on by adults (paedophiles in all) but about how children look upon themselves. Where they do things and, more so, are encouraged to do things, which are associated with 'being adult' they may get to feel that they are 'adult' and hence can do what adults do. This can then be taken to the level where they act in ways believing that they have every right to do such things because they think they are 'grown-up'.....or at least more grown-up than they actually are......and be doing these things totally 'out of context'. But because they 'learnt the behaviour' with no understanding of context, they don't know this. Often it leads to trouble, because that 'out of context' situation could well involve another adult who does not appreciate how 'cute' little Iasha or Levin is being when they act or speak a certain way. This principle applies to a host of 'children-acting-like-adults' situations, so I am not just talking Dancehall style whining.
I can site many examples of a young child pushing up themselves in front of an adult (not their parent) and talking like "if he/she and dem is friend'....you know what I mean? Of course this behaviour stemmed from the reinforcement given by their parent(s) who thought it was a real laugh when the 'little one' came out with 'you is a bamba clat...cha' which they heard from mummy/daddy when addressing another adult. Ok so you may be saying.....'Ah but that's different to kids having a bit of fun in a dancing competition'.
No it's not! The principle is the same. When we condone, encourage and even cheer on, children adopting adult-type behaviour where it is pure mimicking without any idea of context being instilled in the child, we are opening the way for inappropriate behaviour on the part of that child and the likelihood of confusion for that child when he/she suddenly buck up on a situation where the behaviour (which brought them great accolades before) suddenly lands them in a whole heap of sh*t they don't have the first notion how to deal with.
To not appreciate this point you surely have to be someone who does not believe in, or understand the concept of structure and stages of human development. For if you understand this you will understand that the reason adults are entrusted with the responsibility of raising children is because the structure and stages of human development means that the 'young and uncultured' have to be 'nurtured' and 'cultivated' by the 'old and experienced'.
Adults raise children.....children don't, or shouldn't raise children!
Understanding of that concept also means that you recognised that there are things, which are appropriate for when one is a child, and things, which are appropriate for when one is an adult. Once a society erases or blurs these demarcation lines we are heading more and more down the road of an 'Every and anything goes Society'. Furthermore, when we moan and complain about the 'behaviour of children these days' we failing to see the link between such behaviour and our (Adults) lax attitudes toward what is appropriate and not appropriate for our children to be exposed to at various stages of their development.
The subject of 'dressing children like adults' was mentioned in one post because there was a previous thread discussing this in much the same vein as we are doing here. To take clothing as example, ask yourself this. Is it ok for any style of dress worn by an adult to be appropriated for children?
Evidently they are those who think so because only yesterday I was reading about parents boycotting a certain shop which plans to sell 'sexy style' underwear aimed at young girls, as young as 6. Underwear in the design and with the kind of motifs you would find in an Adult Lingerie section or in Ann Summers. But hey it's only cloths right?
Of course children love to mimic adults, it's part of the process of their development that they look to and follow our lead. They also enjoy the 'praise' and admiration they get from adults for the things they do, which naturally inspires them to 'repeat' what they do. This is all part and parcel of the nurturing and developmental aspect of 'raising children'. However, children mimic without understanding of context, therefore it is OUR responsibility (as adults and parents) to ensure that they are exposed to, or urged to copy, that which is appropriate for the stage they are at in their development.
You wouldn't simply 'explain' how to cross the road to your 5 year old and then set him/her off outside to cross it be them self would you? You would likely as not be holding their hand for a good 2/3 years or until you feel they have enough understanding of how to apply the principle (looking left and right etc) by themselves......the one you have been showing them for such and such years. Why is that do you think?
Dancehall stylie was not designed as a dance expression for young children and the concept of 'Dancehall competition' is very much an adult entertainment thing. Is anyone going to dispute that? To have children 'mimicking' that in a competition setting as part of a 'commercial' venture is in no way done with the 'education', or 'fun' value it offers the children, in mind.....why not ball room dancing or May pole dancing? No. it is driven purely by a 'commercial' motive, and a particularly sinister and nasty one at that.....especially considering the emphasis for 'young girls' to take part (shaking and whining their booty........to serve what purpose for them?). This in itself should be of concern to us as Adults and as black people (its our young that's going to be 'showcased' after all). Showcased doing an activity that pulls in a whole heap of dollars (the adult version) from selling video tapes of dancehall events.....to a big European market that is lapping it up right now - I know that for a fact. I am actually wondering if a new market is being considered here by those trying to organise this event....hmmmm.
And you say 'it's only dancing'.
I tell you if mine is a filthy mind because this sort of thing concerns me, I am sure glad I don't have a clean one.
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Posted: Thursday September 22nd, 2005 18:18 |
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Backatya, I'm only going to say this once - please don't tell me what I can or cannot say. If you cannot say anything to me without resorting to a highminded tone, I'd rather you don't reply to me at all.
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Posted: Thursday September 22nd, 2005 18:29 |
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Come now Athaba.....where have I told you what you can say?
I will make comment on views you expressed as I do with anyone. You do likewise to me. That's cool and all part of the process. So what's the problem?
Highminded tone? What's that about? I speak with the same self-assurance as you or anyone here does....i.e. believing in my own rhetoric. If that is being 'highminded' then aren't we all, included yourself? Or is there some special distinction between my expression of the view I believe in and your expression of the view you believe in?
Really, don't let it get to you so, we are all just saying our piece.
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Posted: Thursday September 22nd, 2005 18:30 |
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Oooooo Moderator handbags at dawn.
Pass the Doritos!
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Posted: Thursday September 22nd, 2005 18:35 |
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Jett Black
Behave yourself now, you little stirrer  lol
Besides we are posters to this forum as well as moderators you know. As Moderators we are well tight, as posters we may slug away at each other over particular topics. At least it shows we are not robots or clones.....lol
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Posted: Thursday September 22nd, 2005 18:38 |
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Backatya wrote: Jett Black
Behave yourself now, you little stirrer lol
Besides we are posters to this forum as well as moderators you know. As Moderators we are well tight, as posters we may slug away at each other over particular topics. At least it shows we are not robots or clones.....lol
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Hee hee hee, a girls gotta get her kicks where she can.LOL
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Posted: Friday September 23rd, 2005 15:21 |
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@Tahliba,
Hi sis (long time), we're looking into this Ligali style. Whenever you want to get in touch with me just send an email to toyin@ligali.org.
My personal opinion however is that we should not denigrate ALL dancehall just because the current genre is in the main slack. I wouldnt want any of our childen taking place at this event however the final decision comes down to the parents who allow it and therefore must take ultimate responsibility.
Peace
Toyin
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Posted: Friday September 23rd, 2005 15:48 |
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I have not read everybodies replies but I know someone wanted to find out how they can complain about his event.
If there is a website or contact info for this event can some pls re post it.
Tanks
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Posted: Friday September 23rd, 2005 19:52 |
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They'll be back soon
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Posted: Saturday September 24th, 2005 11:33 |
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@all
Just a reminder of what the children could be exposed to....
http://www.blackchat.co.uk/theblackforum/forum2/17019.html
Lets not be fooling ourselves on this ok.
Peace
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Saida.M
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Posted: Saturday September 24th, 2005 12:02 |
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Toyin please - all I saw in those pics. were people in various state of undress.
The droplet amount of dancing that was displayed, would be not be 'effective' as it were, without the clothes the ladies had on.
In other words, if they were more fully dressed or if they wore trousers, the 'dance' moves would probably be considered ok.
Then we had a lady who purposely pointed to her nipple - anyone with half a brain would not a) consider that 'dancing', and b) can see the lady is quite clearly an adult who made the decision to do that.
So in no way do those pictures automatically equate to what the children would do.
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Toyin
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Posted: Saturday September 24th, 2005 12:24 |
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@athaba,
In no way did i state that those pictures automatically equated to what the children would do.
Im pretty sure i wrote;
"Just a reminder of what the children COULD be EXPOSED to"
If a complete stranger pointed a nipple or something more explicit in the direction of your child (if you have them) in public would you be cool with that?
You got to understand that I didnt state that we should expect the 7-12 year olds to wear the same kind of clothes. Im just stating that if you would not be comfortable with your children watching adults getting ready to particpate in a soft porn video then we should not expose our children to those irresponsible adults who expose their tings and behave in a slack manner in public.
Please be clear about what I'm saying, im not attacking all dancehall music and dance, but i am advocating that it is a cultural practice that in my opinion should be performed by adults for adults.
Last edited on Saturday September 24th, 2005 12:24 by Toyin
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MarcusGarveyLives
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Posted: Sunday January 22nd, 2006 15:18 |
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Which One of Our Children Won?
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FredB
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Posted: Sunday January 22nd, 2006 16:10 |
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@Talibah. Did not see this thread and missed the bulk of the excellent discussion. But have to big you up for taking decisive action in this situation. Frankly it is disgusting.
For those who think that somehow children copying dancehall has nothing to do with the sexualisation process. I will show you a couple of DVD's I just brought back from Jamaica featuring street dances all day and night and in many of them you can see little children in the background girls aping older women.
I have seen this in several Caribbean islands and once it was so bad when you see what this little girls no more than 5 were doing. One was on her back on the side walk with arching her back like she was involved in serious heavyweight sex.
It was so ugly when we started to kick up noise an elder neighbour came out and went over and told them off and there mothers were a couple of doors away having their hairs done on the doorstep whith their crew.
This is about the premature sexualisation of our children and should not be allowed or encourage. Somebody Ayallah was saying some moves are tame. What dance have you been too when they sanction what moves are to performed. Watch these DVD's I have. It is a long dance so every move will be brought out inclduing those you mention.
Young under aged girls with their underwear hitched up their crack and exposing their arses and what is so funny some of them are too young and are trying to show off their bodies or moves but when the camera catches their face you should see them dust from the scene.
Just in case the film gets into their parents hands.
FB
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YankeeJamaRican
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Posted: Sunday January 22nd, 2006 17:15 |
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@ Tahliba... bravo for your attempts to get some answers.
It's not just a dance if you involve children. The message is confusing to these children... the atmosphere is clearly overtly sexual and as an adult, I have blushed at some of these parties in Jamaica. To me, I thought it was understood that those are activities restricted to the over 18 set. I have seen kids wining, but hey, kids will mimic anything unless corrected.
How exactly are these children to interpret some of the moves without the sexual context from which it sprung? Is it appropriate to fill them in on this sexual context before they are @16? Is it appropriate to let them emulate this behaviour in a public arena under the mindful eye of the paedos?
It is utterly bad parenting. Disgusting. I do not consider this kind of showcasing as one to be understood within the framework of cultural nuances. Wrong is wrong and I am glad Tahliba took them to task.
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facetygal
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Posted: Sunday January 22nd, 2006 20:06 |
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This is what I see in a grown up shoobs and I'm even disgusted by that, so for kids to do it makes it even worse. Not only is the gal dancing slack she has to dress slack too, ah wha dis fadda! Where did u get this pic from and where are the 'ADULTS' that should know better than to let likkle gal pickneys enter a batty shakin competition?
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The Watcher
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Posted: Sunday January 22nd, 2006 20:31 |
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I can't help thinking that there is a bald pony out there in a field crying over this picture.
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YankeeJamaRican
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Posted: Sunday January 22nd, 2006 23:08 |
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| ROFLMAO, u are just wrong, DM....
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Kibibi
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