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CA95616
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Posted: Friday September 9th, 2005 16:20 |
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100 percent agree with Kunjufu. Office politics is office politics and you have to know how to work the system.
All the same, it sounds like you are dealing with the workmates from hell.
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efenjee
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Posted: Friday September 9th, 2005 16:26 |
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@ Kunjufu: You have got the whole thing confused and wrong. Check my response to you and then you'll see. The CEO (who I emailed and copied to the person beneath him) said I should have come into his office and spoken rather than emailed him - so tell me again where I went wrong? If you're saying I should have complained to the person beneath him (my manager - director of ops) and then waited for her response, you would be wrong because the CEO himself said I was right to involve him but rather than send an email response to the girl and copy him I should have just gone directly to him. I wish you lot would read and understand fully before telling people they acted foolishly. If you lot aren't sure what I'm saying then ask the necessary questions to get the full understanding. I did absolutely nothing wrong AT ANY TIME:
I first let the girl and everyone else know I was offended by the nature of the email.
Then after receiving her cheeky response (which stated I was in the wrong to read an email which I was warned may be offensive) I let her know I was right to be offended and company policy BACKED my position. I copied to the person I report to and the person we all report to so as to make my complaint official and not just a little petty argument between two colleagues.
If you cannot see that I did EVERYTHING right in this situation then I have to wonder whether you have any sense at all. That goes to everyone who is saying I acted dumb.
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Friday September 9th, 2005 16:27 |
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Jett black & Efenjee: i guess I'm going to be Mr unpopular today....so let me get started on this...
Look can i just say that i'm NOT talking here about taking sides or attacking Efenjee..like i said I'm experienced Manager, I support people in employment matters within my expertise of work, in my spare time.. I've defended people in disciplinary problems and I've also instigated disciplinary proceddures against people on the basis of Gross misconduct and Caperbility.. So when I talk I talk from knowledge and experience...
Sorry Efenjee as a senior brother I must tell you honestly you were damned out of order...and i realy want you to reflect on this because it is important not just for you but for other Black people.. Too often do i see our people frig themselves up doing what you just did..acting in haste without DISCIPLINE!!! that will kill you everytime trust me on that!!
Btw BEFORE you think that oh well i'm leaving anyway.. REMEMBER you need a reference, and whilst they can't write a BAD one...they can speak on the telephone and frig you up..I've see it don't I've had it done to me..it does and can happen.. So guess where your reference will come from?
But let me move on... sorry bUT you cannot do what you just did its WRONG..in fact Efenjee..I dare you to consult your staff handbook and tell me that it instructs staff to handle grievances in the way that you did... It will tell you to TAKE it to YOUR line Manager FIRST.. If you felt you couldn't YOU take it to HUMAN RESOURCES FIRST!! not email them woman twice that is NOT conflict resolution... NOT teach your managers to SUCK EGGS by insulting their intelligence..about what is gross misconduct, come on now!!!
Why not just take out a full page add in the company newsletter stating that my LINE MANAGER is an INCOMPETENT twit..same difference.. You handled the situation BADLY and it will reflect more on YOU than it will on the WRETCH..that is what i meant by letting her off the hook..she apologises looking all saintly and you're left looking the vindictive b**ch (excuse the word),
Its not whether you EXPECTED him to have your BACK, you never gave him a chance and THATS the problem with what you did.. If your purpose was to HIGHLIGHT the racist behaviour in your workplace utlimately YOU failed..so why bother, because you have just undermined your intentions and she will be gone in w few weeks and you're left looking like the trouble maker..sorry but that was really dumb!! sorry but i have to call it as I see it.. and the problem is I've see it too many times BEFORE, we are in the right we act without discipline and we end up in the sh*t!!
EfenJee..bottom line you had TIME to act..you didn't need to rush into thoughtless action as you did...
Last edited on Friday September 9th, 2005 16:40 by Kunjufu
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nodrama
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Posted: Friday September 9th, 2005 16:34 |
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Everyone is talking about the correct procedure in relaton to HR , the unofficial politic still remains that your boss may now think your one of those troublesome black girls who escalates matters unnecessarily. That's the reality. When he's down the pub with his white workmates, they will talk of this with rolled up eyes and exasperation saying 'here we go'.
I believe in justice, but bearing in mind she was going away anyway and it was her that started this whole stupidness, don't you think going to her directly or dealing on her level continuing the'no need to take offence' them may have saved icy stares in the tea room?
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Friday September 9th, 2005 16:34 |
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Efenjee: Yes I understand what you meant..but again your CEO is correct..you should have gone to him FIRST before making a second response as you did....thats my point you have to ALLOW the company to enforce its own policies othewise YOu shoot your self in the foot...
Quoting Company policy is next to useless if its OUT of context or you do not apply it in the correct manner...what I'm saying is thatdefinately you second email and the way did it was way out of line..
I understand that you were upset..but it was a mistake to do what you did, in the way you did it believe me..bad move!!!
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Sooofresh
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Posted: Friday September 9th, 2005 16:48 |
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OH MY GOSH
someone wrote that it is obvious that the girl is leaving and hence wanted u to react and leave a hostile enviornment behind.
now believe it or not, but my advice from me is to squash any further complaints, beat them to their games.
gain experience and leave when u are ready, but i dont think you should let these idiots gin from your productivity.
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efenjee
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Posted: Friday September 9th, 2005 16:48 |
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Kunjufu, you haven't a clue what you're talking about. You have not properly understood what I did but you are spouting on about how foolish I was. You don't know how my company is structured so you wouldn't know that my line manager (director of ops) and my CEO are both people who we all encouraged to approach if we have a problem with any aspect of anything. My CEO did not tell me I should have gone to my line manager - he told me I should not have responded to the group email and gone to him directly.
It makes no difference that I emailed my line manager and my CEO both at the same time, they both work closely and if one is not available the other will often do for almost any work related matter. Fair enough you have management experience or whatever so you are saying I should have gone to my line manager and made a complaint and then seen what she had to do about it. All she could possibly have done is inform the girl that what she did was wrong. My line manager would have no objection to me copying her boss into the email because she is aware that we all see them both as being on a similar footing within our company despite the different job titles, it's like having two bosses who share the role here. I did not need anyone else to do let the girl know her email was in bad taste because I am capable of doing that and am WELL WITHIN MY RIGHTS TO DO THAT.
Kunjufu, I can see that there is no point trying to explain a very simple matter to you because you have already decided you know what it's all about and you can see that what I did was wrong. Can I just say for those who are able to read and comprehend: my aim was to make it clear to all that I felt this email I received was offensive and in bad taste. I have accomplished that and for anyone with any sense it is plain that there is no way I could have done that without treading on some toes - which I have done. Or can someone suggest a way I could have made my displeasure known without annoying anyone??? If I had gone to HR direct my bosses could have felt offended that I didn't feel able to come to them first so that is what I did. It's not even about whether I'm satisfied with the action they took, there was no action for them to take, the girl's leaving! I could have asked them to make everyone aware that certain types of email are offensive but I haven't asked and they have not decided to do it themselves. Can you all not see that there could have been no other outcome when I decided to say I didn't like the email? The only outcome could have been them pissed because the wog has shown displeasure - however I had dealt with it.
While my CEO can act like I should have come direct to him rather than respond to everyone who received the email, I know and he knows that the result would have been NO DIFFERENT. They never liked me before and they still don't like me - maybe slightly more now because I have made them aware that I will not accept racist, offensive behaviour. How on earth could this have gone any other way??? People stop being silly and look at the thing properly. When you make a complaint you have to know what you want out of it, no point just making noise and then seeing what happens with no expectations. I made my complaint and the intention was to make them know I am not going to turn a blind eye to this stuff. Mission accomplished. Them not liking me was happening before I made the complaint and would have continued even if I hadn't made it.
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jett Black
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Posted: Friday September 9th, 2005 16:59 |
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@Kunjufu
I hear what you are saying and I advised Ef from the outset to just go straight to the top.
I guess im just feeling that if someone is already feeling stressed and sh*t from a situation why add to that by making her feel even more sh*t?
None of us are perfect and when you get caught up in the heat of things your mind can get a little cloudy.Noone knows for sure what the "temperature" might be like in Ef,s working environment but any Black person who has ever worked will have a clue.
I understand Ef,s rage as I have done some pretty ill things in the past in regard to work when my last nerve has been destroyed.
One time I got up in the middle of my workday and just walked out,leaving behind a trail of expletives so awful it was as if I were a madwoman!
My Overseer had to call me for two days to get me to come back and explain what was going on,I did in the end and its what I should have done in the first place.....but in the heat of the moment.
I only stayed at that job for 7 more months and in the end I still got good references because I stated my case rationally and also because my work couldnt be faulted.
I still think most people on this thread had valid responses as to what Ef should do and I think probably the most legit concise piece of advise came from JT when he said play the long game,which kind of encompasses everything a lot of us are saying.
Last edited on Friday September 9th, 2005 17:04 by jett Black
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efenjee
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Posted: Friday September 9th, 2005 17:04 |
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Kunjufu wrote: Efenjee: Yes I understand what you meant..but again your CEO is correct..you should have gone to him FIRST before making a second response as you did....thats my point you have to ALLOW the company to enforce its own policies othewise YOu shoot your self in the foot...
So you're saying when I responded to her cheeky "well I did warn it would be offensive and you chose to open it" that was wrong? I should have ignored that and possibly brought it straight to the CEO's attention? So he could have told her it was an act of gross misconduct instead of me telling her that?
What should I have waited for them to do? Act of gross misconduct, girl leaves the company anyway at the end of September, what would/could they have done??? Sack her? Reprimand her? Not likely as she is their pet and she is leaving anyway, I am glad I made her know I do not fear her and am not going to shut up because she responds with, "well you shouldn't have read it you were warned it would be offensive." I am glad I made her know that the issue is not whether I should read emails sent to me or not but whether she should be sending that stuff or not. Listen my bosses probably didn't even know it was gross misconduct and to be frank they probably didn't/don't even care.
What you don't seem to realise is that the only way I could have made this situation any better is by making no response and no complaint whatsoever when I received the offensive email. That is the only way, any other way would have made me look like a troublemaker... if a troublemaker is someone who makes it known when they are offended.
Quoting Company policy is next to useless if its OUT of context or you do not apply it in the correct manner...what I'm saying is thatdefinately you second email and the way did it was way out of line..
When I replied to the girl and quoted company policy to the girl and copied her managers in, it was totally in context, it wasn't out of line cos I just made her know that I was right and she was wrong and if there was any question in her mind, I copied her managers so they could see what was happening and what was being said by me and her. I gained more satisfaction out of telling her myself that she was wrong than if I had let her boss tell her that - and I do not believe I lost anything by doing so. When I copied the bosses in to my response I hoped they would have taken it from there and made it clear to everyone that offensive emails did breach company policy and are not acceptable. They have not done this up to now.
I understand that you were upset..but it was a mistake to do what you did, in the way you did it believe me..bad move!!!
What are the likely consequences of my 'mistake'? How could things have been different if I had done something different?
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Friday September 9th, 2005 17:16 |
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EfenJee: Look I know that in the light of what took place today..you're feeling that you're the agrieved party and you are..but being the agrieved party does not confer total immunity from acting outside expected reasonable behaviours...
The relationship of the CEO to any other manager is besides the point, the fact is you cannot PRESUME or ASSUME what might have happened based on speculation..that is not REASONABLE.. You cannot act based on what you THINK and not on HARD evidence.thats NOT reasonable.. i'm not sure if I'm getting through..
Look if you ask for ADVICE, then listen to it and take it on board don't attack the messager just because the ADVICE is not what you expected... either you want accurate HONEST advice or you want me to collude with your unsafe behaviour and lie to you...you can't have both..
The benchmark efenjee is what is reasonable..and I'm saying that you did not act reasonably on this matter..
You were obviously entitled to MAKE your feeling KNOW to the wretch..(altough this would not have been my first move), but after her reply... insolent or no..
You were NOT entitled to reply to her citing company policy and cc her line management into the process.. why because you're NOT charged with the responsiblity of enacting disciplinary process in this way, if you include someone's line manger into that type of correspondance, that could have EMPLOYMEMNT implications..that is effectively a trigger for disciplinary..
Did you not realise that your CEO may have been forced to ACT regardless of whether you wanted them to, She could have also consodered taking a greivance out against you for acting in what appears to be a Vexatious manner..
(think hard, what would you have felt if you manager sent you an email and cc it to either human resources or his line manager..would you consider yourself ticked off or disciplined with a written verbal warning?)
My point is once you invoke disciplinary procesures in any correspondance, and including her line manager you are effectively whether you realise it or not indirectly threatening that woman's career..hence the reason why she sought to defused it quickly by apologising..
The fact is Efenjee..either your DIRECT line manager or your CEO is charged with making the decision how to proceed and in that context NOT you... Further you cannot ASSUME that your manager would have no objections if you didn't ASK them FIRST..that totally presumtious.
Again Efenjee: whilst what i say may make for uncomfortable reading, I would venture if you read your staff handbook or company disciplinary procedures..no where does it state that employees can take the law into their own hands..sorry but show me that and I'll eat my words.. YOU are NOT within your rights to do what you did and it was dumb because you left yourself very vulnerable in exceeding your remit!!!
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efenjee
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Posted: Friday September 9th, 2005 17:20 |
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@ JettBlack: I did nothing wrong. I followed procedure. If someone sends me an offensive email and I respond to them letting them know how I feel that is not wrong. If everyone else who receives it is cool with it how would she know it offended someone...unless I tell her it offended me?
When I tell her how I felt and she responds within seconds telling me I was wrong and/or stupid to have read it, how can it be wrong for me to respond to that by telling her why it was offensive and why it was technically wrong for her to even send it?
If I hadn't copied to management she could have just responded with, "that's gross misconduct?! oops, well sorry then, my mistake." That would have been the end of it cos I could hardly have gone to management after that could I? Now that would have been seen as petty and vindictive. Me and her could have had the exact same email exchange without me copying management, and management would have been none the wiser... but I would not have felt as good .
Tell you what though, I won't ask for advice from you lot again! Look at all the responses...after the fact. You JettBlack told me to go straight to the top and I did... but I took only a slight detour and look at all the hammering I'm getting!
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nodrama
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Posted: Friday September 9th, 2005 17:23 |
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| stay close to your enemies
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Friday September 9th, 2005 17:23 |
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Jett Black: Nooo actually you gave reasonable advice, you advised her to take her complaint to the top..although its a bit rash..it was essentially good advice..
What i'm saying is that..do that FIRST..DO it second but for god sake don't do it as your giving what for in an EMAIL exchange and then include your bosses in the email..that is daft..
Yes i agree we all get caught up myself included..which is why I'm trying to tell Efenjee, that regardless of how vindicated she feels right now.. Her actions were not correct within the context of her grievance and it secondly it was unsafe because it could potentially have far reaching problems for her than it would for someone else who is not even in the country.. Thats my point!!!
I aint talking malice, i'm just speaking and giving the flip side that Efenjee's obviously hasn't considered..
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jett Black
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Posted: Friday September 9th, 2005 17:33 |
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efenjee wrote: @ JettBlack: I did nothing wrong. I followed procedure. If someone sends me an offensive email and I respond to them letting them know how I feel that is not wrong. If everyone else who receives it is cool with it how would she know it offended someone...unless I tell her it offended me?
When I tell her how I felt and she responds within seconds telling me I was wrong and/or stupid to have read it, how can it be wrong for me to respond to that by telling her why it was offensive and why it was technically wrong for her to even send it?
If I hadn't copied to management she could have just responded with, "that's gross misconduct?! oops, well sorry then, my mistake." That would have been the end of it cos I could hardly have gone to management after that could I? Now that would have been seen as petty and vindictive. Me and her could have had the exact same email exchange without me copying management, and management would have been none the wiser... but I would not have felt as good.
Tell you what though, I won't ask for advice from you lot again! Look at all the responses...after the fact. You JettBlack told me to go straight to the top and I did... but I took only a slight detour and look at all the hammering I'm getting!
Its complicated and I feel ya on this,but its the "detour" that has messed you up somewhat.
Its all well and good us having these detached responses to your particular situation but when you are in the thick of it its a whole other kettle of fish.
And I know when that arrogant cretin responded- within two seconds of you voicing your complaint -in such a dismissive off-hand manner,that the red mist must have descended,it would me too and if this were a scant five years ago I probably would have done much worse than you(not that im saying what you did was wrong,it just wasnt the right chess move).
I dont think this should put you off asking for advice becaus e I think you got some sound pieces,I dont know all the ins and outs of employment law so I cant quote chapter and verse, I can only quote from my life experience.
And Ef,I think you can learn from this thread because you will meet up with similar experiences time and time again,until such time as you are your own Boss.
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efenjee
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Posted: Friday September 9th, 2005 17:35 |
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So what you're saying Kunjufu is that I should have just ignored the email and then told my line manager how I felt about it? ...in the hope she would deal with it appropriately, then if she didn't, take it directly to her boss (the CEO), and then if he didn't deal with it properly, take it to HR? I can see that would have been the official correct formal response, however I believe the girl would have left for sunnier climes by then. I would still look like I was causing trouble and more stupidly, causing trouble about the actions of a person that no longer even works at the company. I'm sure they would have loved that.
Or ignore the email and tell my line manager my complaint who should/would have reprimanded the girl - in her own way.
Or respond as I did in the first instance (email everyone not to send me that kind of sh*t) but not follow up the renk response from the stinking gyal and take it direct to my line manager from there?
Do you think I would have felt better than I do now if that had happened? If my boss had told her mate in a chummy way (they are chums so it would have to be chummy) to be a bit more choosy about who she forwards 'funny' emails to?
Would that resolution to the issue have satisfied you had you been in my shoes?
Do you think I would be liked more if I had done it that way? Do you think this is all about me trying to prevent them from hating me more? With all your knowledge, you still do not seem to have much of a clue. (Efenjee shakes her head and walks away)
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Friday September 9th, 2005 17:39 |
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efenjee wrote:
Tell you what though, I won't ask for advice from you lot again! Look at all the responses...after the fact. You JettBlack told me to go straight to the top and I did... but I took only a slight detour and look at all the hammering I'm getting!
Efenjee: now come on really....I just wish sometimes that people could just see past their own noses and look at the bigger picture...
Efenjee..please please please try to take on board what i'm saying ok..I'm not 'HAMMERING' you out of HATE... I'm trying to tell you so that you know for next time that you HAD OPTIONS..
What I'm trying to tell you is that, is that as RIGHT AS YOU WERE to be aggrieaved about the email...you let your emotions run away with you..we ALL do it..that is my point also.. However what actually need to is THINK OUTCOMES..if your intent was to have a go..then bingo you achieved it...
If your OUTCOMES was to inform them that what they did was immoral did you succeed? Did she get why she apologised or did Apologised because she was FORCED to..there's a big difference..
The idea as far as I'm concerned is that we raise objections/complaints in a safe way without putting ourselves in the frame too...and this is what I'm trying to tell you.. YOU put yourself in the pot as this woman why..when you did nothing wrong..thats my point!!!
You hate me if you want but please do me a favour go back tomorrow and check your procedures..and tell me honestly if it says that what you did in the context of the second email was within procedure..I guarantee you it isn't...
My final point is that all too often I've seen black people lose thier career and a lot more because they get played.. how will you react next time someone send you a racist picture.. Don't you think that someone could do it just to watch you again act foolishly and get yourself sacked either here or in the next job.. come on now we have to be SMART in situations of totality not hot headed..
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jett Black
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Posted: Friday September 9th, 2005 17:45 |
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Ef,this it what I would have done.
Senior person first so that it is on record(formal complaint)
Second,tell cretin about her rass,just for personal satisfaction and lifting "of weight".
Done.
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Friday September 9th, 2005 17:48 |
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efenjee wrote: So what you're saying Kunjufu is that I should have just ignored the email and then told my line manager how I felt about it? ...in the hope she would deal with it appropriately, then if she didn't, take it directly to her boss (the CEO), and then if he didn't deal with it properly, take it to HR? I can see that would have been the official correct formal response, however I believe the girl would have left for sunnier climes by then. I would still look like I was causing trouble and more stupidly, causing trouble about the actions of a person that no longer even works at the company. I'm sure they would have loved that.
Or ignore the email and tell my line manager my complaint who should/would have reprimanded the girl - in her own way.
Or respond as I did in the first instance (email everyone not to send me that kind of sh*t) but not follow up the renk response from the stinking gyal and take it direct to my line manager from there?
Do you think I would have felt better than I do now if that had happened? If my boss had told her mate in a chummy way (they are chums so it would have to be chummy) to be a bit more choosy about who she forwards 'funny' emails to?
Would that resolution to the issue have satisfied you had you been in my shoes?
Do you think I would be liked more if I had done it that way? Do you think this is all about me trying to prevent them from hating me more? With all your knowledge, you still do not seem to have much of a clue. (Efenjee shakes her head and walks away)
Efenjee: no, no and no again I'm definately not saying that at all....if you consult your employee handbook or proceedures it will have a sections called Grievances.. So there were two routes yes you could have taken
either to your line manager and say sort it..wait for a day or so.. and then take it further if she/he hasn't dealth with it effectively.. That way efenjee, your collating EVIDENCE towards constructive dismissal, towards making a case for employment tribunial..do you see?
OR you go to your Line manager and say I want to take out a Grievance against a colleague.. and explain why, they invoke this procedure usually first step a Three way..where you tell al parties in cold calculated terms just how out order she was .. If the manager fails to enact the grievance or take a view on the behaviour..
You then take it to her/his line manage and remake you grievance..if nothing is done..then you still have evidence towards guess what?
Do you get my drift now...I aint asking you to TAKE nothing or ACCEPT sh*t, i'm trying to tell you how to get what you want..without messing yourself up at the same time HOPEFULLY!!
now it aint fool proof i admit but it does allow you options Efenjee..thats my point!!!
Last edited on Friday September 9th, 2005 17:59 by Kunjufu
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saywone1
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Posted: Friday September 9th, 2005 17:55 |
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Kungufu, you have the benifit of experience in how to correctly address staff complaints been you said you was a manager before. We all learn lessons someone else is more clued up about right but at the same time I agree there are certain basic standards EVERYONE should be clued up about concerning work conduct, ie, addressing compaints, behaviour, staff etc.
Like i said personally i would have taken it to the top people myself also (while tryna milk it for some cash - it can be done you know )
On hind sight Efenjee could well have been a little more diplomatic in the situation and thought it through more and consider what the cause and effect of her actions but im sure Kunjufu even in your wise mentality you annoyed yourself with mishandled situations once in a blue moon....no?
Efengee its unfortunate that your situation has take this path and that your even thinging about quiting. You have learned something from a bad situation. You are now wiser and with people inputs on the situation in here you can now handle it much better.
Personally I wouldnt chang the job. Get your experience. You know now much better how to deal with these people if anyone else has the gaul to try something.
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Friday September 9th, 2005 18:08 |
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Saywone: Yes you're correct I am talking with the benefit of hindsight, which is why I just wish sometimes that young people would LISTEN to old heads and not INSIST on learning everything the HARD way...
and YES i can definately say that I've acted in the EXACT way that Efenjee did today, and I felt like i was RIGHT at the time too...however with time, now I realise what a twit I was..so i aint talking as if i was immune from the red mist... in fact if I'm allowed to generalise a bit I think its OUR achilles heel as BLACK people...we always do it and this is what frigs us up big time.. and whats more Europeans KNOW it too...so be warned..when someone drops something..its not always that innocent believe!!!
and actually I think your last bit of Advice is a good one, I would leave either, unless a damned good alternative came up..otherwise she should stick it out a bit longer...learn from them until she is ready..
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BlackMatta
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Posted: Friday September 9th, 2005 19:05 |
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Last edited on Sunday March 5th, 2006 09:52 by
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Saida.M
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