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free
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Posted: Thursday December 9th, 2004 22:05 |
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Sorry that I have started the discussion thread of this excellent book (in my opinion so late on) So what do you think, and what were your opinions on this book?
Do you feel it opened your eyes or expanded your knowledge more? Or was this book going over a lot of old ground?
Opinions feel free to express them....
more to post later on tonight
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Fredblack
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Posted: Thursday December 9th, 2004 22:48 |
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@Free..Hmmmm
FB
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Imperial
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Posted: Friday December 10th, 2004 03:13 |
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Who is the author?
EDIT - Don't worry, done some research...I'll be picking up this book tommorrow, along with The Rebirth Of African Civilization.Last edited on Friday December 10th, 2004 03:30 by Imperial
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Posted: Friday December 10th, 2004 11:03 |
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I apologise for the lateness of my input...
Let us just put it down to a time management issue.
Destruction of Black Civilisation: Great Issues of a Race from 4500BC - 2000 AD by Chancellor Williams I personally feel was an excellent book. It was also a very sad indictment of not only how far we have fallen...but also how sometimes we have been architects of our own downfall. Either due to disunity; inter tribal wars(which was a lesson which touched close to home for me...in light of current online debates or arguments between a number of brothers who I respect....you know who you are  )... our lack of suspicion of White people (something which was a particulary important lesson to me as I am someone who often advocates tolerance, and reading this book has given me a chance to reconsider how trusting I am of some white people)....
Even worse, is that this is the first time I feel that a book has come close to describing the truth about who we are and our identity as a world power and a people...and how it has been completely whitewashed by society as a whole...and the deliberate confusion of the history of Egypt was another issue that irked me...any one who has been arguing on the recent thread 'Why don't Eygptians call themselves Black?' would be well advised to read this book...due to the plethora of information that explains how the racial dynamic and social fabric of this one time African Kingdom...was destroyed by the influx of invaders...
It is amazing on a level how we are selectively fed a daily mix of nonsense to keep us in a state where it is hard to sustain our true legacy as innovators and leaders of culture...an issue that was driven home where in an effort to highlight the plight of 1,000,000,000 children who live in poverty according to unicef...they decided to show Africa...as though poverty is something that afflicts our nation only...which is cheeky considering that if the £55 million a day that we pay in debt repayments was re routed and used for irrigation and agricultural projects that many of the problems that exist in present day Africa could be irradicated...who are only in that mess due to the IMF and the Western leaders holding Black people to financial ransom We are not financially poor we are just to busy making the west rich...
Or in addition carved up and added into the annals of others peoples history...for example I used to love reading up on Greek Mythology and Roman Mythology when I was young The Fabled Thebes of the Greek Mythology...would never seem as though it was in Africa...in the same way that Egypt in the current way that it is described in the educational system you would be hard pressed to believe that it was part of Africa...(which is why I am going to be watching the programs on Egyptian Antropology in more depth to see how much they are ignoring in terms of the Black contribution to civilisation)... (I cannot point to a particular page but this theme runs through out the book but the first 4 chapters explore this Blackout in great depth)...
On a more controversial note...I was happy to see that the spirituality of African people and that we had our own monotheism, including chief God and saints...before 'the cult of Christianity' or 'the cult of Islam'...we were not murderous savages in need of a white God to save us...we had our own distinctly African Spirituality in place...and those of you who do go to church...you are free to believe in what you want...however, you would do well to read this book to understand the role that the church had in destroying Africa to a degree...understanding the history of Theology has to be paramount...so I hope those of you who are of other denominations take the time to read this book(pages 135 onward)
The ecology aspect of what happened to our race is important...and gives some valid reasons for why we need to really get up there scientifically and get on top of our game in terms of preserving our enviroment...is the story of the Sahara...a once lush land which was excellent for agricultural endeavours...(Saharan Tragedy page 183)...I wish that Western countries and coporate big business would invest more time in trying to protect our planet rather that plundering it...As in their haste to make money...we are destroying our ecosystem...and the tragedy of the Sahara could be something that happens on a global scale...we should protect the natural assets that we have around us a little more...
A retrospective point that I wish the continent had undertaken was to protect our Coastal borders more...if we had a great wall of Africa, as they had a great wall of China maybe we could have controlled the influx of immigration and protected our assets...it is a shame that strategically we made so many mistakes...hindsight in the case of this book is painfully depressing...
The key element that did uplift me to a slight degree is the fact that it mentions starting pan African organisations...if you are not a member of such a group please make the effort to join up...because if we unify in the way that our ancestors were not able to in the past...we made be able to affect a positive vision for the future...A victory greater than Menes recapturing lower Egypt (page 39)
So sisters and brothers (in particular sister's) please enrich your minds politically and historically...as in order to reclaim our greatness we must learn from both the triumph and the defeats of our ancestors...this book had moved me to be more political..I know I gained a lot from reading this book...
I just hope that you did too...
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Lucia
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Posted: Friday December 10th, 2004 11:41 |
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On the 8th of November when we were meant to start reading this book, i went to the library to get it, i started reading it and found out alot of things i didnt know for example: that there was a clear divide between black and white arabs in egypt.
I have had to be reading other works for my studies and havent gotten very far into this book, I have it here in front of me now so im going to carry on reading it, as for the last month there has not been any disscussion (that i could find) about the book, which is the part i was most looking forward to so i will, keep posting as i come across things that are new to me or i have strong opinions on.
(just want to add this if i may, free)
Its not too late to start reading this book, as i am not too far in and so far it is very interesting and i think everyone can learn something from reading this book.
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Posted: Friday December 10th, 2004 11:56 |
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definitely agree @ Lucia...
I hope that people do take the effort to pick up the book no matter how late the stage is and learn...
it was an education to me, and explained how 'The land of the Blacks' was broken up and infiltrated by different racial groups...
I personally hope that everyone gets to read this thread and picks up this book
@Imperial ... so glad that you are buying this book...once again I cannot say this enough... it is an important book... and I hope it inspires all of us to do both independent research... and internal reflection of how we have both earnt/ and lost our place in the world...
@All...
It also shows how we were not passive victims/ or aggressors in the slave trade... I wish, I wish and wish that we had done to the slave traders what the Mamelukes did as maybe if we had a more bloody and cohesive fight against foreign raids and infiltration of our communities we could have limited the extent of slavery...
and the Mamelukes were:
Mameluke
Member of a powerful political class that dominated Egypt from the 13th century until their massacre in 1811 by Mehmet Ali.
The Mamelukes were originally descended from freed Turkish slaves. They formed the royal bodyguard in the 13th century, and in 1250 placed one of their own number, Qutuz, on the throne. Mameluke sultans ruled Egypt and built a Levantine empire until they were conquered by the Ottomans in 1517.
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Posted: Friday December 10th, 2004 12:00 |
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| Even if you haven't finished the book please join in the discussion...I would sincerely enjoy reading what everyone has to say...
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Posted: Friday December 10th, 2004 12:03 |
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@All there will always be a gap of approximately a month so that you have time to read and digest the book on your own...
where possible if I am able to find reading guides that accompany the books so that you have something to refer to as you are reading the books...
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Posted: Friday December 10th, 2004 12:07 |
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@ Free
Does it differ greatly to Anta Diop's 'African origin of civillization'? and if so how?
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Posted: Friday December 10th, 2004 12:18 |
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DrunkMonkey wrote: @ Free
Does it differ greatly to Anta Diop's 'African origin of civillization'? and if so how?
Do you know what DM I have not read 'African origin of civillization'...what was the main focus of Anta Diop's work...for in Chancellor Williams case it seemed to me more of a revisionist history in particular of the Western and popular perspective of Egyptology and then it moved on to other parts of Africa...
Chancellor Williams did go on to discuss other empires of Africa...it could be only my opinion... but it seemed that his favourite topic is Egyptology as he concentrated on the empires following Egypt...
But, it seemed common sense to me that there were probably other great empires that coexisted during the time in which Egypt / Land of the blacks was flourishing...
Last edited on Friday December 10th, 2004 12:19 by free
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Posted: Friday December 10th, 2004 12:26 |
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Fantastic book by a legenday African American author.I read it over twenty years ago while in high school. I think I'll reread this landmark book.
Dr. Chancellor Williams was born in Bennettsville, South Carolina. He received his undergraduate degree in Education and Master of Arts degree in history from Howard University. He studied abroad serving as a visiting research scholar at the Unversity of Oxford in England and at the University of London.
Chancellor Williams began field research in African History in Ghana (University College) in 1956. His primary focus was on African achievments and autonomous civilizations before Asian and European influences. His last study in 1964 covered an astounding 26 countries and more than 100 language groups. His best known work is "The Destruction of Black Civilization: Great Issues of a Race from 4500 B.C. to 2000 A.D." For this effort, Dr. Williams was accorded honors by the Black Academy of Arts and Letters.
A little known fact about Dr. Williams is that in addition to being an historian and professor, Dr. Williams was president of a baking company, editor of a newsletter, The New Challenge, an economist, high school teacher and principal and a novelist.
Dr. Williams remained a staunch advocate that African historians do independent research and investigations so that the history of African people be told and understood from their perspective. Dr. Williams stated clearly, "As long as we rely on white historians to write Black History for us, we should keep silent about what they produce." Dr. Chancellor Williams joined the Ancestors in 1992.
BIBLIOGRAPHY -- CHANCELLOR JAMES WILLIAMS
1. The Destruction of Black Civilization--Great Issues of a Race from 4500 B.C. to 2000 A.D.
2. The Rebirth of African Civilization
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The Watcher
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Posted: Friday December 10th, 2004 12:29 |
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@ Free
The AOC was basically about ancient Egypt and who were they. He looks at all the evidence every way and evaluates it all concluding that egyptians were black (great pictures too). He describes the lies and reasons for them and evaluates the alternative theories too.
He doesnt really touch on the Greek and others only so far as that they were derivative of Egyptian civillisation.
I just found a few lines in your description of DOBC to be quite familiar though I havent read that one yet. I wonder what the diferences are. Sounds like a good read anyway.
Maybe someone who has read both can tell me? perhaps Mansamusa or Maat perhaps?
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Bredder Tukoma
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Posted: Friday December 10th, 2004 13:41 |
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@DM
Havent read AOC but I have read alot of Diops stuff. The main difference I would say is Diop seems to concentrate on the cultural aspects/ more anthropology/ while CW Des. of Black. Civ. examines more the reasons that led to the downfall of Africans.
I only read the book this year by the way. I thought it was quite interesting how our political policy in Kemet was to be accepting of foreigners and invaders after defeating them by force. Assimiliation was the order of the day. To our undoing. Also the role the mixed race population had in undermining our culture and interests.
(Not unlike the Carribean ).
For me the Destruction of Black civilisation examines our political naievity in dealing with present/future and past enemies. And the reasons why were are seemingly so disjointed and prone to warring after the breakup of these empires.
It also identifies why all the different African cultures are so similar. They all had a common source. In fact the West African emipres councidie with the break up of Kemet/ noticably ancient Ghana.
Alot of the work in defining African ways of governance and religion is similar to Diops work.
Ill be back later.
Last edited on Friday December 10th, 2004 13:45 by Bredder Tukoma
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Posted: Friday December 10th, 2004 13:42 |
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DAmn keeps on cutttin my post will get back to this. No time now.
FB
Last edited on Friday December 10th, 2004 13:43 by Fredblack
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Posted: Friday December 10th, 2004 13:50 |
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@DM. Mansa's got it. The works you refer to come from Diops PHD thesis where he is making the case for the Afircan orgins of civilisation. It is a brillaint work scientifically as he uses 7 different methods to murder all other arguments. Williams as Mansa said takes the African orgins as given and relies on works of the geat Volney and others. People have known this for the longest time. I mean centuries.
All this is on my post which I cannot post right now.
FB
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Posted: Friday December 10th, 2004 13:55 |
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@ Mansamusa and Fred
Much clearer now thanks.
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Posted: Friday December 10th, 2004 14:46 |
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@ Good points Mansa...
shows why the Europeans are probably so afraid of immigration as they know how they behaved when they were immigrants...
yes Mansa, they were very politcally naive...
too trusting for their own good...
Chancellor Williams did really well to explain how we brought down ourselves by capturing Arab/ White prisoners of war and allowing them to intergrate into society...
I was impressed by his links to the apartheid System in South Africa, and the way racial stratification was manipulated in Egypt...
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Posted: Friday December 10th, 2004 14:49 |
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| Thanks for the information Burning Spear I will have to read Doctor Williams other book...
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Posted: Friday December 10th, 2004 14:56 |
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Last edited on Friday December 10th, 2004 14:58 by Fredblack
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Posted: Friday December 10th, 2004 15:00 |
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@Free. Excellent ground laying. And can I commend you for your lead in this area.To your comments. This book has importance for me on a multitude of levels. I bought it when it came first came into this country from the people who had the distribution rights and it literally just come in still in boxes. This in itself is important, because the publishers are a black nationalist/Pan Africanist company, Third World Press started by Dr Haki R Madhubuti, who extended the distribution rights to another well respected organisation in this country at the time.
So it is an example of brothers/sister practising what they preach and showing how we do business successfully. And more importantly shows the importance of the organisation in question in spreading and developing national consciousness because today people are still talking about books and educational material they first introduced into this national community.
It also confirms what I have said from day one of being a member on this Forum. All the best and brightest black people on this planet are nationalist/Pan Africanist in orientation, because they are the sharpest tools in the box. Professor Chancellor Williams, an Oxford/London and I think Howard Uni man is just another example of this basic truth. We could reel names off like rice grains. Williams is not concerned with getting along with whites and multi racialism or being anti racist or politically correct. He is concerned with black power, how we had it, lost it and what do to restore it. That is his agenda clear and simple
I bought one copy and came back and bought about 10 more and how I begun to make links with the brothers in question. This book was used to start up my first study group in my late teens before going university. So it is an important book for me in many ways and one I have recommended widely since being here.
For me the book was very important because it built on strong foundations, which were already there, and common through most of my people. Basically who are enemies were and serious suspicion towards any other outsider be they white or Asian anything that was not family or our people. Very good basics, which Professor Williams takes to another level.
Like all books and particularly one of this type what we focus on is shaped by our interests, how we think etc. But this book has something for every body for those who want to understand power and the loss of, how the enemy moves, to history, language, arts and education, science and technology, to matters of environmental management and the precursor to the creation of tribal society with the break down of African, Kemtic High Civilisation and the long decline of the African world wide and you can even read between the lines to see how a 6 thousand year time line eventually allowed modern day slavery to develop and unleash devastating consequence on Africa to this day. He also illustrates the great forces within our civilisations and culture that fought to restore and maintain our societies against the alien invasion ranging from the great Kabaka, Candace, and Nzingha. Thought I would fling in some for the sisters there.
But what I would like to highlight is my concerns regarding power and security and how our arrogance, naivety albeit understandable, led to our massive demise.
How is it that people who represented the highest pinnacle of human civilisation and development who were carrying out cataract operations thousands of years ago, who led human technology in some of its most advanced areas find themselves in the state they do today?
Part of it is explained by genuine ignorance of the world and what lay outside our existence which is understandable as we were not to know what motivates theses foreigners with who we had no relations with, unlike others who we had enjoyed relations with for a very long time. Ignorance because it never crossed our mind that what we had could ever be threatened or could ever cease. Again understandable.
We now have the insight to know, that those skinny and scrawny Europeans and Arabs who we allowed to enter our terrioritory unsupervised, unmonitored and viewed as harmless. While all the time eyeing up our tings with jealousy eating them alive, with pure avarice and animal hunger. We ignored them when they like the Asian in the Caribbean comes to our country and wants to mess with our women and charm them. Why because we have so many wonderful women, a couple crossing the border bothered us not. Not realising like the Asian and white man, they were using our women as stepping stones into our culture at its root, while at the same time making sure nobody messed with his as if we would want to as a matter of fact. Africans men were at their highest point of development and self belief and did not have the inferiority complexes which we see in every part of the black world where we manically want some of his white shine to rub off on us via foreign women
But Chancellor Williams is the first black historian to my knowledge other than some specialising in American slavery eg Genovese etc who have really gone into the issue of the importance of female fecundity [reproduction] and its fundamental implications for power and balance in society and it is crucial. In fact many Muslims have known this from day one. We live in a society today where people have more education but are dumber than ever in not understand some very simple laws.
He who captures the womb of a woman captures the power in that society and it is not the same for example as black men breeding white women, as distasteful as that is to me. This is not equality as the mix race child will statistically gravitate to the father’s society and culture all things being equal. And this is exactly what Williams showed how these foreigners simply created their armies via the womb of black women and supplemented that with their folks from back home who came in numbers.
These foreigners started to breed our women, quietly bringing more of them into our country taking up strategic positions up and down the land. Watching the internal politics gaining intelligence of who is who and what is what. Finding the weak, or egotistical and jealous with their own beefs and agendas to recruit or wait for them to make their destructive moves to make theirs, all under the noses of our tolerant and open minded and supremely confident self’s. Each time consolidating their grip and power until they were ready to move to back their man and eventually over time have the damn cheek to seize power directly and put themselves in the seat of our power and throne with Ptolemy. Down hill from there and the rest is history.
What are the lessons damn obvious to me as they were to Emperor Shaka when the white man first came in the midst of the Zulu. They did not trust them for a second and knew instinctively the white man was a liard and spoke with fork tongue. As Shaka said what man who is at peace with himself, happy with his society and claims to come from such a great place would leave his family drifting the seas of the world not know the hell he was going and risk many lives to wander around in another man’s yard.
And despite the big talk of the white man the Zulu could see the hunger in his eye. Zulu security observed them wandering around in the night mapping out the land or the way their eyes opened when they saw the amount of land and the beauty of the place or when they saw the African woman. If you think white women are dry now imagine how they must of looked in the 1800’s. One hundred years late the half caste or coloured population of Southern Africa was massive and a determining factor in the balance of power. So learn the lesson, as they were in Haiti.
Shaka was great for many reasons but one of them was his ability to read the white man cold and realise that the African needed to develop gun technology fast and played them along to make sure he could gain it. He decided to do an Idi Amin and send his Ambassadors to Britain as a return visit as welcomed as theirs, but with a mission to master gun technology. The British arrested them quickly and the rest is history.
So Shaka who had never heard of Ancient Kemit learnt those lessons well because he was a supreme warrior and leader who was in the business of understanding who the enemy is and what clothes they wear.
The lessons of which there are many in this book. But the one’s which had more deeper meaning for me and simply built on what came natural to me and were again reinforced by my boss the head of security when explaining who our enemy was and what or role in the scheme of thing was:
Any person who brings the enemy eg foreigner into our camp, or affairs, territory or into our families and gives them access to our affairs is any enemy or to be viewed with extreme suspicion and warrant our attention
Any person influenced by foreigners or whites or outsiders intellectually or spiritually on core fundamental matters concerning ideas or values or beliefs is an enemy or to be viewed with extreme suspicion and warrant our attention
Any individual who is prepared through unethical means or personal gain seek to attack or undermine the institutions, leaders or people of legitimate influence, community or organisation or collude with others to or cause harm physically or otherwise is to be viewed as an enemy and treated accordingly
Taking my bosses creed and applying it to the lessons learnt from the great work by Professor Williams we can conclude this. If it was possible to turn back the hand of time simply by identifying no more than tens of thousands of people if that and an extreme figure and remove them from the equation hundreds of millions of African lives if not more would have been spared. Kemit and our high civilisations would not have fallen or not in the way they did, modern day slavery and the ravishing of Africa and the transportation of hundreds of millions depopulating massive parts of the continent and taking many of its leaders and bright and best and killing them. All the misery associated with mother Africa and her children would not have been as it has been. Simply by identifying and removing those who by their behaviour opened the back door for the enemy and keep him there our existence as a race would have been completely different.
But blows and licks are for a purpose.
Peace
FB
Last edited on Friday December 10th, 2004 15:50 by Fredblack
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Burning Spear
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Posted: Friday December 10th, 2004 17:08 |
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Spoiler alert if you have not read the book.Scroll downward if you don't want to know.
The basis premise of DOBC is this.Most African empires of import were in the interior and thus prone to frequent invasion.Another aspect is that by not being coastal inventions and innovations such as gunpowder were slow to reach Africa.Thus when empires were invaded the fleeing population went inland and lost much of what made their culture an empire.
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The Watcher
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| Joined: | Tuesday May 11th, 2004 |
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Posted: Friday December 31st, 2004 21:51 |
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