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One Zero Seven
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Posted: Sunday January 30th, 2005 13:34 |
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In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...the Best Knower.
Salaam (Peace) to all.
Regarding the Creation of man, the Bible states:
Gen. 2:7 - And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
From the Holy Qur'an, we read the following:
Surah 15 - The Rock
28 And when your Lord said to the angels I am going to create a mortal of sound clay, of black mud fashioned into shape.
29 So when I have made him complete and breathed into him of My spirit, fall down making obeisance to him.
Question: How can MAN be "evil" or "sinful" by nature when the very Essence of him is the Spirit of the Divine Supreme Being?
RM
Last edited on Sunday January 30th, 2005 13:42 by One Zero Seven
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KANOBI
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Posted: Monday January 31st, 2005 03:06 |
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Man was not created with a sinful nature but when he chose to sin he became sinful in nature. All Adams descendants are guilty and share the same punishment as he was a figure head of humanity. If Adam created very good (without a sinful nature) in the garden chose to sin then it was impossible for any man not to chose to sin under the same circumstances? The fact is we all live on this cursed earth and we all have a sinful nature. Who does not have a problem with sin? Who does not need forgiveness? Who does not need gods mercy? Who has met the standard of God? Who is not deserving of Gods justice?
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One Zero Seven
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Posted: Monday January 31st, 2005 03:13 |
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KANOBI wrote: Man was not created with a sinful nature but when he chose to sin he became sinful in nature. All Adams descendants are guilty and share the same punishment as he was a figure head of humanity. If Adam created very good (without a sinful nature) in the garden chose to sin then it was impossible for any man not to chose to sin under the same circumstances? The fact is we all live on this cursed earth and we all have a sinful nature. Who does not have a problem with sin? Who does not need forgiveness? Who does not need gods mercy? Who has met the standard of God? Who is not deserving of Gods justice?
Salaam (Peace) to all...
If sin is not in his Nature by Creation, how could he "choose" to do something that is not in his Nature? Can a Fish "choose" to fly like a bird or bark like a dog? Can a dog "choose" to swim like a fish or fly like a bird?
If sin was not originally part of man's nature, WHERE DID IT COME FROM?
RM
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KANOBI
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Posted: Monday January 31st, 2005 04:11 |
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Adam did not sin out of his nature but he sinned because of the choice presented to him by an external agent (Satan). Satan tempted Eve and Eve tempted Adam so sin was introduced to them through Satan. Remember I did not say it was impossible for Adam to sin but he was created holy and with the ability not to sin, something none of us have. The way I imagine it is, he had a conscience that was multiple times greater than ours is so sin would have been out of the question. This would have changed when Eve tempted by Satan brought sin into question in his mind. The thought would probably have never crossed his mind otherwise.
The same affect of falling into sin happens on a small scale to everyone. If you commit a sin it makes it easier and easier to continue to sin. Sin corrupts and decays a persons conscience. Lie cheat do anything you feel is wrong once and it is easier the second time. I heard a soldier on TV say how every time he killed another human being he felt he was destroying a little bit of his own humanity. When you sin it opens the door for more sin, it is like a spark that starts a fire. You can witness bad behaviour in children become progressively worse the more bad things they do.
Mankind sinned and became enslaved by what they chose.
Last edited on Monday January 31st, 2005 04:15 by KANOBI
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One Zero Seven
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Posted: Monday January 31st, 2005 05:23 |
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Salaam...
Satan could not have tempted Adam if there was not already something IN Adam that Satan could identify with. So the question could then be asked, "Was Adam created PERFECT?"
RM
Last edited on Monday January 31st, 2005 05:24 by One Zero Seven
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KANOBI
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Posted: Monday January 31st, 2005 17:48 |
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Satan could not have tempted Adam if there was not already something IN Adam that Satan could identify with. So the question could then be asked, "Was Adam created PERFECT?"
Can you please elaborate? Are you saying that Adam had to have something bad (bad desire) within him before Satan could tempt him? I maintain although it was not impossible for Adam to sin the thought of it may never have crossed his mind if it were not for the outside agent Satan. The love for knowledge and wisdom would have been in Adams being also the admiration of God and the free will to chose from choices presented to him. But i don't consider those things bad although Satan could have used them to lie to Eve and Adam. There was nothing in his nature to stop him from believing a lie.
Yes I believe Adam was created a perfect yet free agent so he did not need to remain perfect although he had the ability.
Last edited on Monday January 31st, 2005 17:57 by KANOBI
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jamal786
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Posted: Monday January 31st, 2005 19:51 |
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Is Man Evil By Nature?
Of the top of my head i would say no, that man is not evil by nature, and was not created perfect either. Man is born in a state of innocence or goodness. Man is born with many abilities including freewill and freedom of choice. This means that through his upbringing, learning and enviroment he can choose be good or choose to be bad either intermittently or comtinuously. He is no more born perfect in nature to have a perfect, righteous life, than he is born inherantly evil in nature to have a sinful life. In terms of Adam... Adam was the best of creation in terms of having abilities over other forms of creation and was born with both an agreeable and disagreeable nature which is why the angels were told to bow down to him. He therefore had the freedom of choice which would then cause him to become either good or bad if he either followed or strayed from the path of Allah.
91:7-10. By the Soul, and the proportion and order given to it; And its enlightenment as to its wrong and its right;- Truly he succeeds that purifies it, And he fails that corrupts it!
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KANOBI
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Posted: Tuesday February 1st, 2005 07:20 |
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Why would God make Adam so weak that he is unable to refrain from sinning?
Look a the suffering men cause was this gods original intention?
Could god have made Adam with the ability to avoid sin yet having free will?
Does god hate sin or not?
How can the holy accept the unholy?
If you claim god is holy but he does not care for man to be holy what does that say about god?
The God of the bible made mankind perfect and holy so Adams sin rests squarely upon the head of mankind. That’s the way it should be!
How can god hate sin yet make mankind unholy and hold mankind to a holy standard?
Or why should he set a standard that is less than holy yet be considered holy and hating sin?
He is only as holy as the standard he sets for mankind.
Maybe the god of Islam places man closer to the beasts than to himself. Maybe a human will be a human in the same way a dog would be a dog, how can we condemn it for licking its own excrement then trying to lick our face. In the same way god according to Islam cannot condemn Adam for sinning because it is inevitable due to his nature as long as he says sorry its ok.
Maybe according to Islam we are not higher spiritual beings and that is why god does not care for us to be perfect?
Maybe you believe man is capable of avoiding sin but does not (How that can be justified I don’t know?) and gods dignity is low enough for mankind’s sins to not be seen as completely serious offences, isn‘t god holy?
Maybe you believe that good works though they should be the norm and can never out weigh your sins can cancel out your sins. Maybe you believe you can eventually overcome sin I doubt anybody on this earth has ever done that plus what about passed sins are those accounted for?
The bible says about mans current condition:
And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma. Then the LORD said in His heart, "I will never again curse the ground for man's sake, although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done. Genesis 8:21
And
Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins. Ecclesiastes 7:20
And about our good works:
For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. Isaiah 64:6
According to the bible mankind was made in gods image but man has fallen and his image has become corrupt. God created mankind with the intention of having a relationship with us but he hates sin and only accepts what is perfect as he is holy. Jesus said:
“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.� Matthew 5:48
Confirming that god is perfect and wants us to be perfect.
Shouldn’t the fact that the very essence of Adam is the spirit of the divine mean he was created holy and perfect?
In the Bible God said to Adam if you eat of the fruit you will die. But Adam ate the fruit in doing so he went against the very essence of his being therefore he became corrupt bringing death and the descent down sins slippery slide.
Last edited on Tuesday February 1st, 2005 07:26 by KANOBI
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ChubbiChix
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Posted: Tuesday February 1st, 2005 12:43 |
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In order to understand the nature of man you have to understand the nature of God. I know people want to believe God is all good and does no unjustified wrong or inflicted with human emotions like anger or jealousy but the truth is that the Devil is apart of God. God in its original form was plural or Elohim, a group of beings with different attributes, characteristics and qualities both masuline and feminine (Eloh & Elah, together as a group they make Elohim). The original group of beings had both positive and negative qualities ,It wasent until Akhenaton establish monothesim that they started to worship one God, calling him the supreme God or most high over all the other Gods.
Human beings are no different. In my view just like the whites have origins in black, the devil also has origins in God and there for its in us to sin, but the people closest to the origin have a more dominating force. The people furthest away from the origin have a more weaker force and they are more easily aroused to sin just like Adam and Eve. Adam was closer to God then Eve and is why she was more vulnerable to sin.
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jamal786
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Posted: Tuesday February 1st, 2005 18:13 |
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""The God of the bible made mankind PERFECT and HOLY so Adams sin rests squarely upon the head of mankind. That’s the way it should be!"" (KANOBI)
.if mankind was "perfect" and "holy", then adam wouldnt have ate the apple!!
Also tell me, why should all mankind (billions/trillions of people, pay for the sin of one man (adam)? Even the bible itself says that the son shall not bear the sins of its father (ezekiel 18:20-21), and that children are not born in sin (mark 10:14)
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Justavoice
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Posted: Tuesday February 1st, 2005 20:19 |
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I have been reading through this thread for a little while now and can say its very interesting some of what's been said. There is nothing really much I can add to it, but my belief that man is inherently evil. It is something we have inherited from Adam. Interesting wording in Genesis that it says that Adam had a son after his image in his likeness Gen 5.
Adam was made after the image of God, in that image was what I would call a pureness. So pure was Adam, God could leave him to name the animals, to name woman, God involved Adam in the creative process because Adam was at that point of a position where he could not act outside of God's will.
After the fall though the balance of not just Adam but the whole of creation was now in jeapordy. Adam was the crowning creation of God, for in the creative act of making man, it took God of the dust of the earth to form Adam, and of his own breath. No other creation in the Genesis account tells us that God took something of himself to make it. i.e. The fish of the sea was made from the sea, the birds of the air from the air. But man oh boy, man had the prize of God's very own breath and all that came with it, dominion of the earth, power to hear from heaven. So in Adam's disobedience came a great plunge into darkness, a cut off of relationship from God.
Jamal asks a good question regarding all the children of men being plunged into sin because of one man, but the bible tells us that If by one man we are plunged into sin, by one man Jesus we would be redeemed from it.
Thats why Jesus is refered to as the second Adam. Do you know who the Second Adam's wife is ? Its the church. Already she tried to persuade Jesus not to carry out the command that he was born to do, but Jesus did what the first Adam didn't do ? he rebuked the bride, telling her, "get thee behind me" for you savour the things of men more than things God.
What happened in the Garden was recreated back again with Jesus and Peter who would go on to be the rock upon which Christ would build his church (the bride).
By Adam's fall we inherited a blood problem, for the bible says that "the Life is in the blood" the very spirit of man dwell in the blood. What do you think really happened in the garden. What fruit do you believe that Adam and Eve ate ? When you look into that then you will see why all Adam's children were born out of disobedience.
And why it is necessary for the second birth of which Jesus spoke. ?
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One Zero Seven
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Posted: Wednesday February 2nd, 2005 00:13 |
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Justavoice wrote: ...my belief that man is inherently evil....Adam was made after the image of God,
Do you realize the implications of these two statements being made by the same person?
RM
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jamal786
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Posted: Wednesday February 2nd, 2005 01:25 |
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| ^^^If that same person had also said they were a man and worshiped god... than based on those two statements above, i would have to consider that as being a confession of an evil devil worshipper!
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KANOBI
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Posted: Wednesday February 2nd, 2005 04:45 |
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One Zero Seven wrote: Justavoice wrote: ...my belief that man is inherently evil....Adam was made after the image of God,
Do you realize the implications of these two statements being made by the same person?
RM
You have to be fair!
He never said man was created inherently evil! Sin is evil and humans are sinful, are they not? Are you?
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One Zero Seven
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Posted: Wednesday February 2nd, 2005 05:10 |
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Justavoice wrote: ...my belief that man is inherently evil....Adam was made after the image of God,
One Zero Seven wrote: Do you realize the implications of these two statements being made by the same person?
KANOBI wrote: You have to be fair! He never said man was created inherently evil! Sin is evil and humans are sinful, are they not? Are you?
Salaam (Peace) to all...
What do you mean "fair"? How am I being UN-fair? I merely pointed out what could be seen as a contradiction. HE said he believes that man is INHERENTLY evil. The Bible says that Man is the Glory of God....so, the "Glory of God" is "inherently evil"???
He (Justavoice) said he believes man is "inherently evil", while the BIBLE says that man was Created in the Image and Likeness of God.
Now, I can't see how the two sides of his position can be reconciled, unless there is something more to the Nature of God, Himself, and of Man, which we have not known, and have not thought to question.
Do you know what the word "inherently" means?
inherent:
Existing as an essential constituent or characteristic; intrinsic; Occurring as a natural part or consequence; involved in the constitution or essential character of something : belonging by nature; existing as an essential constituent or characteristic; present at birth but not necessarily hereditary; acquired during fetal development; in the nature of something though not readily apparent.
If the "sin nature" or the "essence of sin" was not IN man from the Beginning, WHERE DID IT COME FROM? HOW DID IT GET THERE?
If you say, "Because ADAM sinned," I ask you, "HOW did Adam who was not created sinful, become sinful?"
RM
Last edited on Wednesday February 2nd, 2005 05:18 by One Zero Seven
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KANOBI
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Posted: Wednesday February 2nd, 2005 05:21 |
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| Evil exists because free will exists. To be perfect you must have free will and not be just a robot. Why do you think evil exists?
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One Zero Seven
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Posted: Wednesday February 2nd, 2005 05:26 |
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KANOBI wrote: Evil exists because free will exists. To be perfect you must have free will and not be just a robot. Why do you think evil exists?
Does God have Free Will?
Who is the Author of Free Will?
Is God the Author of Evil as well, since you say that evil exists BECAUSE free will exists?
RM
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Posted: Wednesday February 2nd, 2005 05:55 |
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Question: How can MAN be "evil" or "sinful" by nature when the very Essence of him is the Spirit of the Divine Supreme Being?
RM
HUMANS BY NATURE ARE NOT EVIL, BUT THE DEVIL MAKES THEM TO BE SINFUL. ONE MUST REALIZE THAT THE WORLD IS A TEST AND ALL ARE CAPABLE TO SIN, BUT THOSE WHO REPENT AND ASK FORGIVENESS ARE ON THE RIGHT PATH.
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Justavoice
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Posted: Wednesday February 2nd, 2005 20:04 |
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One Zero Seven wrote:
Justavoice wrote: ..my belief that man is inherently evil....Adam was made after the image of God,
Do you realize the implications of these two statements being made by the same person?
-------------------------------------------------
Jamal wrote:
^^^If that same person had also said they were a man and worshiped god... than based on those two statements above, i would have to consider that as being a confession of an evil devil worshipper!
--
there is nothing really much I can add to it, but my belief that man is inherently evil. It is something we have inherited from Adam. Interesting wording in Genesis that it says that Adam had a son after his image in his likeness Gen 5.
Adam was made after the image of God, in that image was what I would call a pureness. So pure was Adam, God could leave him to name the animals, to name woman, God involved Adam in the creative process because Adam was at that point of a position where he could not act outside of God's will.
Kanobi then wrote:
You have to be fair!
He never said man was created inherently evil! Sin is evil and humans are sinful, are they not? Are you?
Being that you have written in past posts One Zero Seven that you use to attend church, when I write I do it in such a way that I don't go over things I think you already know. You strike me as an intelligent person so I have not gone through the whole genesis account, I picked up on certain points with the thinking that you would fill in the gaps with your own prior knowledge.
Kanobi is right, I am not saying man was created inherently evil, like Satan was not created evil. Sin/Evil is a boundary, a limit set by God, where to cross it you have crossed over into a place not unknown to him, but a place he deems unacceptable. To step past the boundaries of God's word is to commit sin, for you have in so doing stepped from light into darkness.
However God created darkness, there is nothing made or that exists that did not come about by God. However God's dwelling is in the light. The light he called good.
We know that Satan was cast down from heaven, and that iniquity was found in him, and so in this garden we had
a) A tree in the midst of the garden ???
b) A command from God
c)Adam and Eve
ci)Satan (The Father of lies).
These were the elements in the garden, these are the elements still in our world today, and Adam is still falling each day and trying to disguise his shame.
Again Kanobi wrote we have free will, that exists,
you then asked if God as free will, yes he does.... God divided the light from the darkness, he knows the boundaries of both light and darkness, the length and breath of them but he himself dwells in the light. It is we that cannot deal with darkness, Adam partook of something he was unable to handle for he was not spiritually ready for it.
However everything is subject to God, even the devil is answerable to him.
I believe that all the ingredients that would define Adam's character/nature was placed in the garden and was there for Jesus too... it would mean the difference between being good or bad, obedient or disobedient.
@Jamal
If you read you will see that I believe that man's inherited sinful nature stems from Adam, I did not say from God. I use the fall in the garden as a cut off point, the place whereby man's image bare no resemblance no longer to God but to Adam. Man the whole package, body soul and spirit did not resemble that of the image of God.
As Bele wrote, this life is a test, in the Revelation it says that "to him that overcomes, God will give him to eat of the hidden manna".
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jamal786
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Posted: Wednesday February 2nd, 2005 22:02 |
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So then according to that you are saying that man (Adam) was previously not inherently evil/sinful but became so after Adams fall from grace which rendered all mankind inherently sinful/evil.
But then my understanding of (ezekiel 18:20-21) (mark 10:14) is that man is not born in sin and do not inheirit the sins of those that come before them, so how then can man be "born" a sinner?
furthermore, if man WAS born a sinner, then what would the relevance of life being a "test" if he has already failed it before he was born?, and what relavance would "free will" be to choose good or evil, when man has already been born evil/sinner, and is not judged on his deeds anyhow?
To me, this only makes sense, if man is born in a state of innocence or goodness, with many abilities including freewill and freedom of choice. Man is then shown the "straight path" and is then judged on his actions and deeds in the context of whether they correlate or deviate from this "path"..
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Posted: Wednesday February 2nd, 2005 22:37 |
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JustaVoice...
Further to my previous post i have been thinking of certain problematic questions regarding the christians view of "man is born in sin"...
Does inheritance of Adam’s sin mean that man is born innately sinful, or guilty of a sin he did not commit, or both?
Did Christ’s suffering change human nature, or did it only absolve man of guilt for the sin he never committed, or both?
If man is born innately evil and sinful why is he still capable of choosing good over evil?
What happened to the souls before Christ who could have had the benefit of the latter’s alleged suffering but alas he had not yet formally "come"; were they saved by the Saviour they neither knew nor acknowledged, or were they just too unfortunate to be born at the wrong time?
Was Melchizedek inherently evil/sinner?
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Posted: Thursday February 3rd, 2005 02:13 |
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Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
...Was Job inherently evil and sinful?
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KANOBI
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Posted: Thursday February 3rd, 2005 04:56 |
