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One Zero Seven
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Posted: Sunday January 30th, 2005 12:34 |
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In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...the Best Knower.
Salaam (Peace) to all.
Regarding the Creation of man, the Bible states:
Gen. 2:7 - And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
From the Holy Qur'an, we read the following:
Surah 15 - The Rock
28 And when your Lord said to the angels I am going to create a mortal of sound clay, of black mud fashioned into shape.
29 So when I have made him complete and breathed into him of My spirit, fall down making obeisance to him.
Question: How can MAN be "evil" or "sinful" by nature when the very Essence of him is the Spirit of the Divine Supreme Being?
RM
Last edited on Sunday January 30th, 2005 12:42 by One Zero Seven
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KANOBI
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Posted: Monday January 31st, 2005 02:06 |
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Man was not created with a sinful nature but when he chose to sin he became sinful in nature. All Adams descendants are guilty and share the same punishment as he was a figure head of humanity. If Adam created very good (without a sinful nature) in the garden chose to sin then it was impossible for any man not to chose to sin under the same circumstances? The fact is we all live on this cursed earth and we all have a sinful nature. Who does not have a problem with sin? Who does not need forgiveness? Who does not need gods mercy? Who has met the standard of God? Who is not deserving of Gods justice?
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One Zero Seven
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Posted: Monday January 31st, 2005 02:13 |
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KANOBI wrote: Man was not created with a sinful nature but when he chose to sin he became sinful in nature. All Adams descendants are guilty and share the same punishment as he was a figure head of humanity. If Adam created very good (without a sinful nature) in the garden chose to sin then it was impossible for any man not to chose to sin under the same circumstances? The fact is we all live on this cursed earth and we all have a sinful nature. Who does not have a problem with sin? Who does not need forgiveness? Who does not need gods mercy? Who has met the standard of God? Who is not deserving of Gods justice?
Salaam (Peace) to all...
If sin is not in his Nature by Creation, how could he "choose" to do something that is not in his Nature? Can a Fish "choose" to fly like a bird or bark like a dog? Can a dog "choose" to swim like a fish or fly like a bird?
If sin was not originally part of man's nature, WHERE DID IT COME FROM?
RM
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KANOBI
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Posted: Monday January 31st, 2005 03:11 |
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Adam did not sin out of his nature but he sinned because of the choice presented to him by an external agent (Satan). Satan tempted Eve and Eve tempted Adam so sin was introduced to them through Satan. Remember I did not say it was impossible for Adam to sin but he was created holy and with the ability not to sin, something none of us have. The way I imagine it is, he had a conscience that was multiple times greater than ours is so sin would have been out of the question. This would have changed when Eve tempted by Satan brought sin into question in his mind. The thought would probably have never crossed his mind otherwise.
The same affect of falling into sin happens on a small scale to everyone. If you commit a sin it makes it easier and easier to continue to sin. Sin corrupts and decays a persons conscience. Lie cheat do anything you feel is wrong once and it is easier the second time. I heard a soldier on TV say how every time he killed another human being he felt he was destroying a little bit of his own humanity. When you sin it opens the door for more sin, it is like a spark that starts a fire. You can witness bad behaviour in children become progressively worse the more bad things they do.
Mankind sinned and became enslaved by what they chose.
Last edited on Monday January 31st, 2005 03:15 by KANOBI
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One Zero Seven
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Posted: Monday January 31st, 2005 04:23 |
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Salaam...
Satan could not have tempted Adam if there was not already something IN Adam that Satan could identify with. So the question could then be asked, "Was Adam created PERFECT?"
RM
Last edited on Monday January 31st, 2005 04:24 by One Zero Seven
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KANOBI
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Posted: Monday January 31st, 2005 16:48 |
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Satan could not have tempted Adam if there was not already something IN Adam that Satan could identify with. So the question could then be asked, "Was Adam created PERFECT?"
Can you please elaborate? Are you saying that Adam had to have something bad (bad desire) within him before Satan could tempt him? I maintain although it was not impossible for Adam to sin the thought of it may never have crossed his mind if it were not for the outside agent Satan. The love for knowledge and wisdom would have been in Adams being also the admiration of God and the free will to chose from choices presented to him. But i don't consider those things bad although Satan could have used them to lie to Eve and Adam. There was nothing in his nature to stop him from believing a lie.
Yes I believe Adam was created a perfect yet free agent so he did not need to remain perfect although he had the ability.
Last edited on Monday January 31st, 2005 16:57 by KANOBI
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jamal786
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Posted: Monday January 31st, 2005 18:51 |
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Is Man Evil By Nature?
Of the top of my head i would say no, that man is not evil by nature, and was not created perfect either. Man is born in a state of innocence or goodness. Man is born with many abilities including freewill and freedom of choice. This means that through his upbringing, learning and enviroment he can choose be good or choose to be bad either intermittently or comtinuously. He is no more born perfect in nature to have a perfect, righteous life, than he is born inherantly evil in nature to have a sinful life. In terms of Adam... Adam was the best of creation in terms of having abilities over other forms of creation and was born with both an agreeable and disagreeable nature which is why the angels were told to bow down to him. He therefore had the freedom of choice which would then cause him to become either good or bad if he either followed or strayed from the path of Allah.
91:7-10. By the Soul, and the proportion and order given to it; And its enlightenment as to its wrong and its right;- Truly he succeeds that purifies it, And he fails that corrupts it!
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KANOBI
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Posted: Tuesday February 1st, 2005 06:20 |
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Why would God make Adam so weak that he is unable to refrain from sinning?
Look a the suffering men cause was this gods original intention?
Could god have made Adam with the ability to avoid sin yet having free will?
Does god hate sin or not?
How can the holy accept the unholy?
If you claim god is holy but he does not care for man to be holy what does that say about god?
The God of the bible made mankind perfect and holy so Adams sin rests squarely upon the head of mankind. That’s the way it should be!
How can god hate sin yet make mankind unholy and hold mankind to a holy standard?
Or why should he set a standard that is less than holy yet be considered holy and hating sin?
He is only as holy as the standard he sets for mankind.
Maybe the god of Islam places man closer to the beasts than to himself. Maybe a human will be a human in the same way a dog would be a dog, how can we condemn it for licking its own excrement then trying to lick our face. In the same way god according to Islam cannot condemn Adam for sinning because it is inevitable due to his nature as long as he says sorry its ok.
Maybe according to Islam we are not higher spiritual beings and that is why god does not care for us to be perfect?
Maybe you believe man is capable of avoiding sin but does not (How that can be justified I don’t know?) and gods dignity is low enough for mankind’s sins to not be seen as completely serious offences, isn‘t god holy?
Maybe you believe that good works though they should be the norm and can never out weigh your sins can cancel out your sins. Maybe you believe you can eventually overcome sin I doubt anybody on this earth has ever done that plus what about passed sins are those accounted for?
The bible says about mans current condition:
And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma. Then the LORD said in His heart, "I will never again curse the ground for man's sake, although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done. Genesis 8:21
And
Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins. Ecclesiastes 7:20
And about our good works:
For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. Isaiah 64:6
According to the bible mankind was made in gods image but man has fallen and his image has become corrupt. God created mankind with the intention of having a relationship with us but he hates sin and only accepts what is perfect as he is holy. Jesus said:
“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.� Matthew 5:48
Confirming that god is perfect and wants us to be perfect.
Shouldn’t the fact that the very essence of Adam is the spirit of the divine mean he was created holy and perfect?
In the Bible God said to Adam if you eat of the fruit you will die. But Adam ate the fruit in doing so he went against the very essence of his being therefore he became corrupt bringing death and the descent down sins slippery slide.
Last edited on Tuesday February 1st, 2005 06:26 by KANOBI
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ChubbiChix
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Posted: Tuesday February 1st, 2005 11:43 |
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In order to understand the nature of man you have to understand the nature of God. I know people want to believe God is all good and does no unjustified wrong or inflicted with human emotions like anger or jealousy but the truth is that the Devil is apart of God. God in its original form was plural or Elohim, a group of beings with different attributes, characteristics and qualities both masuline and feminine (Eloh & Elah, together as a group they make Elohim). The original group of beings had both positive and negative qualities ,It wasent until Akhenaton establish monothesim that they started to worship one God, calling him the supreme God or most high over all the other Gods.
Human beings are no different. In my view just like the whites have origins in black, the devil also has origins in God and there for its in us to sin, but the people closest to the origin have a more dominating force. The people furthest away from the origin have a more weaker force and they are more easily aroused to sin just like Adam and Eve. Adam was closer to God then Eve and is why she was more vulnerable to sin.
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jamal786
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Posted: Tuesday February 1st, 2005 17:13 |
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""The God of the bible made mankind PERFECT and HOLY so Adams sin rests squarely upon the head of mankind. That’s the way it should be!"" (KANOBI)
.if mankind was "perfect" and "holy", then adam wouldnt have ate the apple!!
Also tell me, why should all mankind (billions/trillions of people, pay for the sin of one man (adam)? Even the bible itself says that the son shall not bear the sins of its father (ezekiel 18:20-21), and that children are not born in sin (mark 10:14)
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Justavoice
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Posted: Tuesday February 1st, 2005 19:19 |
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I have been reading through this thread for a little while now and can say its very interesting some of what's been said. There is nothing really much I can add to it, but my belief that man is inherently evil. It is something we have inherited from Adam. Interesting wording in Genesis that it says that Adam had a son after his image in his likeness Gen 5.
Adam was made after the image of God, in that image was what I would call a pureness. So pure was Adam, God could leave him to name the animals, to name woman, God involved Adam in the creative process because Adam was at that point of a position where he could not act outside of God's will.
After the fall though the balance of not just Adam but the whole of creation was now in jeapordy. Adam was the crowning creation of God, for in the creative act of making man, it took God of the dust of the earth to form Adam, and of his own breath. No other creation in the Genesis account tells us that God took something of himself to make it. i.e. The fish of the sea was made from the sea, the birds of the air from the air. But man oh boy, man had the prize of God's very own breath and all that came with it, dominion of the earth, power to hear from heaven. So in Adam's disobedience came a great plunge into darkness, a cut off of relationship from God.
Jamal asks a good question regarding all the children of men being plunged into sin because of one man, but the bible tells us that If by one man we are plunged into sin, by one man Jesus we would be redeemed from it.
Thats why Jesus is refered to as the second Adam. Do you know who the Second Adam's wife is ? Its the church. Already she tried to persuade Jesus not to carry out the command that he was born to do, but Jesus did what the first Adam didn't do ? he rebuked the bride, telling her, "get thee behind me" for you savour the things of men more than things God.
What happened in the Garden was recreated back again with Jesus and Peter who would go on to be the rock upon which Christ would build his church (the bride).
By Adam's fall we inherited a blood problem, for the bible says that "the Life is in the blood" the very spirit of man dwell in the blood. What do you think really happened in the garden. What fruit do you believe that Adam and Eve ate ? When you look into that then you will see why all Adam's children were born out of disobedience.
And why it is necessary for the second birth of which Jesus spoke. ?
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One Zero Seven
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Posted: Tuesday February 1st, 2005 23:13 |
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Justavoice wrote: ...my belief that man is inherently evil....Adam was made after the image of God,
Do you realize the implications of these two statements being made by the same person?
RM
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jamal786
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Posted: Wednesday February 2nd, 2005 00:25 |
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| ^^^If that same person had also said they were a man and worshiped god... than based on those two statements above, i would have to consider that as being a confession of an evil devil worshipper!
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KANOBI
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Posted: Wednesday February 2nd, 2005 03:45 |
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One Zero Seven wrote: Justavoice wrote: ...my belief that man is inherently evil....Adam was made after the image of God,
Do you realize the implications of these two statements being made by the same person?
RM
You have to be fair!
He never said man was created inherently evil! Sin is evil and humans are sinful, are they not? Are you?
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One Zero Seven
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Posted: Wednesday February 2nd, 2005 04:10 |
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Justavoice wrote: ...my belief that man is inherently evil....Adam was made after the image of God,
One Zero Seven wrote: Do you realize the implications of these two statements being made by the same person?
KANOBI wrote: You have to be fair! He never said man was created inherently evil! Sin is evil and humans are sinful, are they not? Are you?
Salaam (Peace) to all...
What do you mean "fair"? How am I being UN-fair? I merely pointed out what could be seen as a contradiction. HE said he believes that man is INHERENTLY evil. The Bible says that Man is the Glory of God....so, the "Glory of God" is "inherently evil"???
He (Justavoice) said he believes man is "inherently evil", while the BIBLE says that man was Created in the Image and Likeness of God.
Now, I can't see how the two sides of his position can be reconciled, unless there is something more to the Nature of God, Himself, and of Man, which we have not known, and have not thought to question.
Do you know what the word "inherently" means?
inherent:
Existing as an essential constituent or characteristic; intrinsic; Occurring as a natural part or consequence; involved in the constitution or essential character of something : belonging by nature; existing as an essential constituent or characteristic; present at birth but not necessarily hereditary; acquired during fetal development; in the nature of something though not readily apparent.
If the "sin nature" or the "essence of sin" was not IN man from the Beginning, WHERE DID IT COME FROM? HOW DID IT GET THERE?
If you say, "Because ADAM sinned," I ask you, "HOW did Adam who was not created sinful, become sinful?"
RM
Last edited on Wednesday February 2nd, 2005 04:18 by One Zero Seven
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KANOBI
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Posted: Wednesday February 2nd, 2005 04:21 |
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| Evil exists because free will exists. To be perfect you must have free will and not be just a robot. Why do you think evil exists?
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One Zero Seven
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Posted: Wednesday February 2nd, 2005 04:26 |
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KANOBI wrote: Evil exists because free will exists. To be perfect you must have free will and not be just a robot. Why do you think evil exists?
Does God have Free Will?
Who is the Author of Free Will?
Is God the Author of Evil as well, since you say that evil exists BECAUSE free will exists?
RM
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Pele
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Posted: Wednesday February 2nd, 2005 04:55 |
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Question: How can MAN be "evil" or "sinful" by nature when the very Essence of him is the Spirit of the Divine Supreme Being?
RM
HUMANS BY NATURE ARE NOT EVIL, BUT THE DEVIL MAKES THEM TO BE SINFUL. ONE MUST REALIZE THAT THE WORLD IS A TEST AND ALL ARE CAPABLE TO SIN, BUT THOSE WHO REPENT AND ASK FORGIVENESS ARE ON THE RIGHT PATH.
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Justavoice
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Posted: Wednesday February 2nd, 2005 19:04 |
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One Zero Seven wrote:
Justavoice wrote: ..my belief that man is inherently evil....Adam was made after the image of God,
Do you realize the implications of these two statements being made by the same person?
-------------------------------------------------
Jamal wrote:
^^^If that same person had also said they were a man and worshiped god... than based on those two statements above, i would have to consider that as being a confession of an evil devil worshipper!
--
there is nothing really much I can add to it, but my belief that man is inherently evil. It is something we have inherited from Adam. Interesting wording in Genesis that it says that Adam had a son after his image in his likeness Gen 5.
Adam was made after the image of God, in that image was what I would call a pureness. So pure was Adam, God could leave him to name the animals, to name woman, God involved Adam in the creative process because Adam was at that point of a position where he could not act outside of God's will.
Kanobi then wrote:
You have to be fair!
He never said man was created inherently evil! Sin is evil and humans are sinful, are they not? Are you?
Being that you have written in past posts One Zero Seven that you use to attend church, when I write I do it in such a way that I don't go over things I think you already know. You strike me as an intelligent person so I have not gone through the whole genesis account, I picked up on certain points with the thinking that you would fill in the gaps with your own prior knowledge.
Kanobi is right, I am not saying man was created inherently evil, like Satan was not created evil. Sin/Evil is a boundary, a limit set by God, where to cross it you have crossed over into a place not unknown to him, but a place he deems unacceptable. To step past the boundaries of God's word is to commit sin, for you have in so doing stepped from light into darkness.
However God created darkness, there is nothing made or that exists that did not come about by God. However God's dwelling is in the light. The light he called good.
We know that Satan was cast down from heaven, and that iniquity was found in him, and so in this garden we had
a) A tree in the midst of the garden ???
b) A command from God
c)Adam and Eve
ci)Satan (The Father of lies).
These were the elements in the garden, these are the elements still in our world today, and Adam is still falling each day and trying to disguise his shame.
Again Kanobi wrote we have free will, that exists,
you then asked if God as free will, yes he does.... God divided the light from the darkness, he knows the boundaries of both light and darkness, the length and breath of them but he himself dwells in the light. It is we that cannot deal with darkness, Adam partook of something he was unable to handle for he was not spiritually ready for it.
However everything is subject to God, even the devil is answerable to him.
I believe that all the ingredients that would define Adam's character/nature was placed in the garden and was there for Jesus too... it would mean the difference between being good or bad, obedient or disobedient.
@Jamal
If you read you will see that I believe that man's inherited sinful nature stems from Adam, I did not say from God. I use the fall in the garden as a cut off point, the place whereby man's image bare no resemblance no longer to God but to Adam. Man the whole package, body soul and spirit did not resemble that of the image of God.
As Bele wrote, this life is a test, in the Revelation it says that "to him that overcomes, God will give him to eat of the hidden manna".
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jamal786
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Posted: Wednesday February 2nd, 2005 21:02 |
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So then according to that you are saying that man (Adam) was previously not inherently evil/sinful but became so after Adams fall from grace which rendered all mankind inherently sinful/evil.
But then my understanding of (ezekiel 18:20-21) (mark 10:14) is that man is not born in sin and do not inheirit the sins of those that come before them, so how then can man be "born" a sinner?
furthermore, if man WAS born a sinner, then what would the relevance of life being a "test" if he has already failed it before he was born?, and what relavance would "free will" be to choose good or evil, when man has already been born evil/sinner, and is not judged on his deeds anyhow?
To me, this only makes sense, if man is born in a state of innocence or goodness, with many abilities including freewill and freedom of choice. Man is then shown the "straight path" and is then judged on his actions and deeds in the context of whether they correlate or deviate from this "path"..
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jamal786
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Posted: Wednesday February 2nd, 2005 21:37 |
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JustaVoice...
Further to my previous post i have been thinking of certain problematic questions regarding the christians view of "man is born in sin"...
Does inheritance of Adam’s sin mean that man is born innately sinful, or guilty of a sin he did not commit, or both?
Did Christ’s suffering change human nature, or did it only absolve man of guilt for the sin he never committed, or both?
If man is born innately evil and sinful why is he still capable of choosing good over evil?
What happened to the souls before Christ who could have had the benefit of the latter’s alleged suffering but alas he had not yet formally "come"; were they saved by the Saviour they neither knew nor acknowledged, or were they just too unfortunate to be born at the wrong time?
Was Melchizedek inherently evil/sinner?
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jamal786
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Posted: Thursday February 3rd, 2005 01:13 |
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Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
...Was Job inherently evil and sinful?
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KANOBI
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Posted: Thursday February 3rd, 2005 03:56 |
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One Zero Seven wrote: KANOBI wrote: Evil exists because free will exists. To be perfect you must have free will and not be just a robot. Why do you think evil exists?
Does God have Free Will?
Who is the Author of Free Will?
Is God the Author of Evil as well, since you say that evil exists BECAUSE free will exists?
RM
There is a difference between having knowledge of something and bringing it into existence. Evil is actually a lack of a something rather than a something in itself, it is a lack of goodness. God did not bring evil into existence but beings who had free will and the choice to chose that which is not good chose that which is not good therefore evil came into being.
Sin is the transgression of Gods law so God cannot transgress that he defines. He would have no reason to do evil anyway. God has complete knowledge that would include knowledge of what is not his law. For evil to actually come into existence a created being would have to use its free will to transgress Gods law. I believe the angels were created with knowledge of good and evil and they had the choice to remain holy or to transgress gods law. This is what some of them did including Satan.
Disobedience of God would never have crossed Adams mind although he had free will his choices were limited to good choices. When temptation came from and external agent to eat the fruit that god forbid his choices were expanded. He now had the choice to obey or disobey God as disobedience had been brought into question. What the devil said appealed to him and he used his free will to disobey.
Do you accept that free will allows beings to choose freely between the choices presented to them? Do you accept that a being does not need to have been created evil to commit an evil act but their free will and their choices are sufficient for them to decide what they will do?
Free will is not the same as evil but if a holy being is given the choice to do evil the being can use their freewill to choose it or reject it. It is the choice they make that determines whether they are evil or not.
How do you propose evil came into existence?
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Posted: Thursday February 3rd, 2005 06:03 |
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KANOBI...
I did not ask you if God COMMITS evil...I asked you if God is the AUTHOR of evil, since He is the Author of Free will, and you say that evil exists BECAUSE free will exists.
There is a big difference.
RM
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Posted: Thursday February 3rd, 2005 06:07 |
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KANOBI wrote: How do you propose evil came into existence?
I thought you'd never ask...lol
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jamal786
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Posted: Thursday February 3rd, 2005 15:38 |
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""Sin is the transgression of Gods law so God cannot transgress that he defines. He would have no reason to do evil anyway. God has complete knowledge that would include knowledge of what is not his law. For evil to actually come into existence a created being would have to use its free will to transgress Gods law. I believe the angels were created with knowledge of good and evil and they had the choice to remain holy or to transgress gods law. This is what some of them did including Satan.....Disobedience of God would never have crossed Adams mind although he had free will his choices were limited to good choices. When temptation came from and external agent to eat the fruit that god forbid his choices were expanded. He now had the choice to obey or disobey God as disobedience had been brought into question. What the devil said appealed to him and he used his free will to disobey."" (KANOBI)
......As god is the creator and lawmaker of everything, if sin and evil did not already exist, then disobediance would not have crossed adams mind. It would be impossible to successfully "tempt" adam if sin and evil did not already exist. Therefore if sin and evil did not already exist then satan would not have attempted to "temp" adam in the first place. The intention to "tempt" in itself is an evil act by satan, and satans ability and methods to "tempt" were evil acts. Adams supceptability to the evil act meant means that his nature was supceptable to evil and had the ability to do evil.
On a side note. There is a story you may find intresting about "fallen angels" which i cant be bothered to search for a link to at present. The story go's that for the heaven and universe to balance (ying and yang, karma, etc) god created both good angels from light and bad angels from fire. good angels had a 180 degree agreeable nature, whilst bad angels had 180 degree disagreeable nature . therefore the good angels could only agree with god, and the bad angels could only disagree (what the role of the bad angels was i cannot remember). there was a bad angel baby called ibliss (satan) who was found by the good angels who brought him up as one of their own. even though ibliss was 180 degree disagreeble, he learnt though his agreeable upbringing and enviroment with the good angels to become agreeable. this gave him both a 180 degree disagreeable and 180 degree agreeable nature, which meant he could decide (360 degrees freewill). in turn he caused mischief in heaven by trying to turn good agreeable angels to become disagreeable. at this stage god made man who also had 360 degrees freewill. man was therefore the best and chosen of gods creation as man was made with the ability of 360 degrees freewill (consisting of a 180 degree disagreeable and 180 degree agreeable nature) and could therefore think and decide independantly. for this reason man told his good angels to bow down to man as man was higher than them as man had been made with freewill whereas they had not. the angels bowed down excepting iblis as ibliss had the ability to disagree. ibliss also had the ability of his learned freewill and argued that he should not bow down to adam as he is better than adam as he is an angel and also has the ability of freewill as adam has. ibliss continued to say he could prove he was better than man by turning them all evil and disagreeable to gods will. therefore god told him that this part of heaven was no place for his arogance and disagreeable nature and ordered him out of heaven. he threw ibliss and any followers he had out of heaven and ordained that if any of man use their freewill to refuse or turn against god or to follow the evil ways of iblis then the will abide in hell. therefore the evil or sinful forces were in existence before the coming of man. man is not inherently evil as he has the freewill of choice, but has the ability to do evil or sinful acts if he chooses to do so.
"It is We Who Created you and gave you shape; then We bade the Angels bow down to Adam, and they bowed down; not so Iblis; he refused to be of those who bow down. (Allah) said: 'What prevented thee from bowing down when I commanded thee? He said: 'I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay. (Allah) said: 'Get thee down from this: it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures). He said: 'Give me respite till the day they are raised up. (Allah) said: 'Be thou amongst those who have respite.' He said: 'Because thou hast thrown me out of the Way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on thy Straight Way: Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: Nor wilt Thou find, in most of them, gratitude (of Thy mercies).' (Allah) said: 'Get out from this, disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow thee - Hell will I fill with you all. (The Noble Quran, 11-18)"Last edited on Thursday February 3rd, 2005 16:20 by jamal786
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Posted: Thursday February 3rd, 2005 21:32 |
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@Jamal
Romans Chapter 5
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
------------------------------------------
So lets look at your question Jamal, regarding Job. The bible says Job was an upright man and perfect in the sight of God.
My question is "Did Job die" if your reply is yes, then you will see then that Job died because of a consequence of sin. Notice that the writer shows us that Death passed upon all men due to one man's transgression. It even goes on to say that death reigned over even those that did not sin after the similtude of Adam's transgression.
The wages of sin is death Jamal, so looking at that I will ask you, seeing you still wish to push the Melchizideck thing, did Muhammed die ? And if he died, he died due to this penalty of sin and death placed upon all men.
The fact that Muhammed died, shows that he recieving the supposed last will and testament of God was unable to break from the bonds of death. Which Jesus did ?.
Meaning that again we have made one step back and not forward with this last prophet.
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Posted: Thursday February 3rd, 2005 21:35 |
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@Jamal
Romans Chapter 5
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
------------------------------------------
So lets look at your question Jamal, regarding Job. The bible says Job was an upright man and perfect in the sight of God.
My question is "Did Job die" if your reply is yes, then you will see then that Job died because of a consequence of sin. Notice that the writer shows us that Death passed upon all men due to one man's transgression. It even goes on to say that death reigned over even those that did not sin after the similtude of Adam's transgression.
The wages of sin is death Jamal, so looking at that I will ask you, seeing you still wish to push the Melchizideck thing, did Muhammed die ? And if he died, he died due to this penalty of sin and death placed upon all men.
The fact that Muhammed died, shows that he recieving the supposed last will and testament of God was unable to break from the bonds of death. Which Jesus did ?.
Meaning that again we have made one step back and not forward with this last prophet.
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Posted: Friday February 4th, 2005 18:49 |
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Free will, knowledge of evil and a desires (knowledge & wisdom, power and desires of the flesh) are enough to cause a being created holy to sin. So yes Adam and the angels were susceptible to sin but they also had the ability to completely avoid sin. All men now have an inclination to sin Adam originally did not.
Beings are susceptible to sin because they have the freedom to choose sin not because they were created weak with a nature that makes it impossible to be sinless.
This seems more consistent with a God that hates sin than a God that creates evil beings.
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Posted: Friday February 4th, 2005 19:21 |
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@Kanobi
What are your thoughts on this scripture then
Isaiah Chapter 45
5I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
--
I'm trying to get to grips with what you are saying, are you saying that God did not create evil beings, but in that he created evil, those beings he did make righteous could also be susceptible to evil. Lets call evil and entity for now. Trying to understand your thought on this ?
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Posted: Friday February 4th, 2005 19:35 |
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Justavoice have a read
http://www.tektonics.org/gk/godevil.html
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/iamwrong1.html
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Posted: Friday February 4th, 2005 20:22 |
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I see where your coming from. Thanks for that.
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jamal786
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Posted: Saturday February 5th, 2005 04:02 |
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""Free will, knowledge of evil and a desires (knowledge & wisdom, power and desires of the flesh) are enough to cause a being created holy to sin. So yes Adam and the angels were susceptible to sin but they also had the ability to completely avoid sin. All men now have an inclination to sin Adam originally did not....Beings are susceptible to sin because they have the freedom to choose sin not because they were created weak with a nature that makes it impossible to be sinless....This seems more consistent with a God that hates sin than a God that creates evil beings."" (KANOBI)
....but Adam DID have freewill and Adam WAS tempted. To successfully tempt someone then they would have had to have made a choice to accept the temptation which was what Adam done. He knew it was wrong but chose to do it anyway. this was a choice of disobediance and therefore Adam DID have an inclination to do wrong(sin), as if he did not then he would have not disobeyed. therefore, the evil was already there as the lies and temptation of the snake (devil) which existed before the sinful-apple act. i do not think a god creates evil either, but create what can become evil or can be used for evil, particularly if in the hands of those with free will as both the devil and Adam proved. find that "fallen angels" story and read it, it is very intresting... there is even a christian version... if that makes any difference (could be from watchtower).
==========================================================================
""My question is "Did Job die" if your reply is yes, then you will see then that Job died because of a consequence of sin. Notice that the writer shows us that Death passed upon all men due to one man's transgression. It even goes on to say that death reigned over even those that did not sin after the similtude of Adam's transgression.....The wages of sin is death Jamal, so looking at that I will ask you, seeing you still wish to push the Melchizideck thing, did Muhammed die ? And if he died, he died due to this penalty of sin and death placed upon all men.....The fact that Muhammed died, shows that he recieving the supposed last will and testament of God was unable to break from the bonds of death. Which Jesus did ?.....Meaning that again we have made one step back and not forward with this last prophet."" (JUSTAVOICE)
......I suppose Job died, but i dont believe man dies because they are sinners. why must jobs death have been due to sin. does not the bible tell you he was a PERFECT man and eschewed sin. i notice you state Romans to support that death = sin. however, that is introduced by paul and the word of paul who put his interpretation into christianity. it may be minutely reliterated elsewhere, but that death = sin is primarilly intruduced by paul, and not god, moses, jesus or any prophets. the bible doe not say that prophets died as sinners and that their death was due to sin after all the good work they done. therefore the wages of sin IS NOT death, the wages of sin IS hell, and even the bible will tell you that as that is what the judgement is for. to be judged we must die. therefore, this life is a test/probationary period for the next/eternal life in heaven/paradise... or hell. The reason i bring up Melchizideck as he was a man and did not die as is like jesus (according to bible) therefore this alone disproves your "all men die/all men die due to sin" statements.
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did die and not due to "penalaties of sin". he died because all men die and there are numerous verses that clearly indicate that every soul must taste death: "Every soul shall taste death" (Q3:185). "Every soul must taste death" (Q21:35). "He said (to man) therein (on earth) you shall live and therein you shall die" (Q7:25). death separates the soul from the body to be raised up to god for judgement etc. dont you yourself believe jesus died on the cross, therefore tasted death too. muslims believe he did not die on the cross but was raised up therefore even though the Qur'an is silent about the nature and the details of the matter, and does neither say explicitly whether Allah raised him bodily from the earth to some place in heaven, nor does it say that he died like other mortals and only his soul was raised to heaven. It has been couched in such a language that nothing can be said definitely about the incident except that it was uncommon and extraordinary." (Note 195 to verse 4:157). however, what is clear is that there are numerous verses that clearly indicate that every soul must taste death: "Every soul shall taste death" (Q3:185). "Every soul must taste death" (Q21:35). "He said (to man) therein (on earth) you shall live and therein you shall die" (Q7:25). even jesus said as we are told in the quran, " So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)" (Q19:33). Nowhere in the Holy Qur'an is there any warrant for the popular belief that God has "taken up" Jesus (a.s) bodily, in his life time, into Heaven. The expression "God exalted him unto Himself" (raised up) in the above verse (4:158) denotes the elevation of Jesus (a.s) to the realm of God's Special Grace - a blessing in which ALL Prophets partake - and before their death are shown their place in paradise/heaven. therefore what is this "one step back" you refer too when Muhammad came after jesus to confirm the message of jesus and moses and all the prophets, and to reveal the entire message of Allah. Last edited on Saturday February 5th, 2005 04:05 by jamal786
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KANOBI
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Posted: Sunday February 6th, 2005 03:55 |
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Jamal read carefully this is my belief about Adam and my reply to your belief that Adam sinned because evil existed in him so he was just as we are and he could not have been created a perfect man as it would have been impossible for him to sin.
Adams nature was different from the rest of mankind before he sinned. Mankind now cannot help but continually sin Adam on the other hand was created with a nature that made it possible for him to avoid sin. This does not mean it was impossible for him to sin but he potentially could have lived his whole life without sinning. His wrong doing does not prove he had exactly the same sinful nature we do.
Adam was the perfect man but he sinned when tempted because he had freewill and he had the desire to obtain knowledge and wisdom and be like God. The fact that Adam sinned does not mean that Adam was created with a fault.
If Adam truly had freewill then there must have been a possibility of him making the wrong decision. The only way it could have been made impossible for Adam sin would have been to compromise his freewill or to have given him complete knowledge and wisdom (something only god has) and the power of God.
If Adam was created with submission programmed into his nature and he automatically choose what was right then it would be impossible for him to make a wrong choice and therefore his freewill would have been compromised. Adams submission should be a choice that is made rather than something that is hardwired into his nature. If God designed Adam to automatically submit to him it would be as if he made robots to worship and praise him. What would be the value of that praise and worship?
Adam was made in the image of God so naturally he would value knowledge and wisdom and power therefore desire those things. If he did not have the capacity to value these things then it would be impossible for him to fully appreciate God and prevent him from having dominion on earth. So Adam was created in the image of God yet was not God; he was created with everything necessary for the fullness of his being that’s including freewill, love for knowledge, wisdom and power. The fact that Adam was made in the image of God but yet was not God made it possible for Satan to tempt Adam with something he did not have but wanted. Satan also lied about the consequences of eating the fruit and Adam was not designed with a built in lie detector. This means that the potential of Adam believing a lie and sinning existed without him being created faulty as we are. As I pointed out earlier Adam was required to be humble and submit to God by choice as there is no good in having submission programmed into his nature. The potential for him to choose wrongly must exist if he truly had freewill and he was deceived and tempted with something he found desirable but this does not mean he must be faulty as we are.
Genesis gives us an indication the change in Adam and Eves nature:
“And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.�
“The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die! "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings.�
"I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself." And He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?" The man said, "The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate."
In the Bible Eve sinned first maybe because she was not given the direct command from God or being a female her nature may have been possibly slightly different from Adams in order to complement his. That may explain why the serpent went to the woman first. Adam seeing Eve sin and her giving him the fruit probably made it easier for Adam to sin. We can see they ate the fruit for wisdom and its fruit opened their eyes and made them conscious of their nakedness and this indicates a change in their nature. The world and mankind created very good go downhill from this point on with evil death and suffering becoming the norm.
Last edited on Sunday February 6th, 2005 04:43 by KANOBI
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Posted: Sunday February 6th, 2005 10:45 |
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that is a misconception. i do not believe "evil existed in adam". man is not evil by nature, and was not created perfect either. Man is born in a state of innocence or goodness. Man is born with many abilities including freewill and freedom of choice. This means that through his upbringing, learning and enviroment he can choose be good or choose to be bad either intermittently or comtinuously. He is no more born perfect in nature to have a perfect, righteous life, than he is born inherantly evil in nature to have a sinful life. In terms of Adam... Adam was the best of creation in terms of having abilities over other forms of creation and was born with both an agreeable and disagreeable nature which is why the angels were told to bow down to him. He therefore had the freedom of choice which would then cause him to become either good or bad if he either followed or strayed from the path of Allah. adam had the potential to do evil, if he did not and was instead "perfect" and "holy", then adam wouldnt have ate the apple!!
91:7-10. By the Soul, and the proportion and order given to it; And its enlightenment as to its wrong and its right;- Truly he succeeds that purifies it, And he fails that corrupts it!
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Posted: Sunday February 6th, 2005 12:00 |
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why is evry1 using adam as an example? ' is man evil by nature?' i hope is referring to man and woman.
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Posted: Sunday February 6th, 2005 13:47 |
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jamal786 wrote: that is a misconception. i do not believe "evil existed in adam". man is not evil by nature, and was not created perfect either. Man is born in a state of innocence or goodness. Man is born with many abilities including freewill and freedom of choice. This means that through his upbringing, learning and enviroment he can choose be good or choose to be bad either intermittently or comtinuously. He is no more born perfect in nature to have a perfect, righteous life, than he is born inherantly evil in nature to have a sinful life. In terms of Adam... Adam was the best of creation in terms of having abilities over other forms of creation and was born with both an agreeable and disagreeable nature which is why the angels were told to bow down to him. He therefore had the freedom of choice which would then cause him to become either good or bad if he either followed or strayed from the path of Allah. adam had the potential to do evil, if he did not and was instead "perfect" and "holy", then adam wouldnt have ate the apple!!
91:7-10. By the Soul, and the proportion and order given to it; And its enlightenment as to its wrong and its right;- Truly he succeeds that purifies it, And he fails that corrupts it!
Do you agree that Adam had the potential to remain perfect and holy? What man (or woman) today can remain perfect and holy?
It is impossible!
Is this how we were created? or did we once have a greater potential to be remain completely righteous?
Last edited on Sunday February 6th, 2005 13:52 by KANOBI
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Posted: Sunday February 6th, 2005 15:58 |
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lady sykotic wrote: why is evry1 using adam as an example? ' is man evil by nature?' i hope is referring to man and woman.
Peace to you, lady sykotic.
Of course, we cannot speak of Man (capital "M") without speaking of Woman, since Man carries the Essence of Woman withinn Himself, and since Man cannot reproduce Himself except through the Woman.
man = male
Man = male and female.
RM
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Posted: Sunday February 6th, 2005 18:37 |
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Do you agree that Adam had the potential to remain perfect and holy? What man (or woman) today can remain perfect and holy?......It is impossible!.....Is this how we were created? or did we once have a greater potential to be remain completely righteous? (KANOBI)
....Man is born in a state of goodness and therefore has the potential to continue through their life like this. Many and maybe even all do not, however they did have the potential to be sinless, but their choices, upbringing, actions, and mindset did not realise this potential. Man has been given the Qur'an as a guide for what is good and what is bad, and the freewill and intellect to make choices based on this.
Islam rejects the premises of the concept of Original Sin which is alien to Islam and inconceivable to the Muslim mind. Islam has a different version of the Fall. Adam acknowledged that he had gone astray and sincerely sought Allah’s forgiveness which was granted to him unconditionally. Adam and his progeny descended from bliss to the earth because of his error, and yet, none of his children inherited the blame for his error. The volitional implication of Fitrah is that man is responsible for his own wrong actions. It is inconceivable to Muslim thinking that mankind should be punished for wrong actions that others did. The concept of Divine forgiveness features strongly in the Qur’an, for Allah accepts the sincere repentance of His slaves.
Tawbah (literally, turning, i.e. away from wrong action, and to Allah) or repentance plays a very significant and decisive role in a Muslim’s life. Although man is born in a state of original goodness or Fitrah, he is also subject to temptation and folly. Allah has granted him the ability and opportunity to repent which means that he should admit his errors and turn remorsefully away from them to Allah.
Knowledge of Divine mercy as well as knowledge of the innate goodness of the human Fitrah, serves three very important functions: firstly it gives the believer hope of salvation and success; secondly, it gives him confidence in his own potential to do right and resist wrong; thirdly, it exhorts and admonishes him to actively pursue all that is right and resist all that is wrong. These are the merits of sincere repentance. Just as the Prophet Adam, peace be upon him, repented and was pardoned for his wrong action, so may his descendents repent and be pardoned for their wrong actions.
According to the Qur’anic perspective, man has been created with the equal inclination for good or bad. Allah says in the Qur’an: 91:7-10. "By the Soul, and the proportion and order given to it; And its enlightenment as to its wrong and its right;- Truly he succeeds that purifies it, And he fails that corrupts it!"
Based on this and other Qur’anic verses, all of us has the propensity to do good or bad. So, in Islam we can choose either of the two ways: right or wrong and we are rewarded accordingly.
Human beings themselves recognize when they do sin that they have the choice to avoid it. When they do something good they have the choice to do it and they feel good about it.
If human beings had been on sins and they had no choice but to do sins, then there is no wisdom behind punishment. Allah Almighty is All-Wise and All-Just. He has assured us in the Qur’an: “No soul will be questioned about what another soul has done.� (Al-Israa’: 15)
This means that the sin of Adam did not pass on to his offspring; he paid for his own sin and we must pay for our sins unless Allah forgives us.
The Islamic concept in this matter is fully consistent with reason and revelation. It is also consistent with the teachings of the Gospel and the Old Testament before the Christians invented the doctrine of the Original Sin. As historians have pointed out, the concept of Original Sin and the Jesus being crucified or the sins of humankind had been imported to Christianity from Pagan sources.
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jamal786
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Posted: Sunday February 6th, 2005 19:08 |
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Furthermore...
Qur'an 30:30. "So set thou thy face steadily and truly to the Faith: (establish) Allah.s handiwork according to the pattern on which He has made mankind: no change (let there be) in the work (wrought) by Allah. that is the standard Religion: but most among mankind understand not."
Islam subscribes to the view that human nature is pure and good. Man has been created in the best of forms and everyone is born in a state of purity and innocence. Furthermore, humans have been given freedom of choice. They are free to accept or deny the truth. Every person is responsible for his or her own actions, but is not deprived of this freedom, even if it is abused. The dangers of the misuse of freedom continue to confront humans as the challenge of Satan is unceasing. The trial of Adam and Eve reveals, on the one hand, the essential goodness of their nature and on the other, their susceptibility to error. It is to safeguard human beings against this that Allah has provided Divine Guidance through His prophets and messengers.
However, imperfection and fallibility are not the equivalent of sin or synonymous with criminality – at least not in Islam. If man is imperfect he is not left helpless or deserted by God to fall victim to his shortcomings. He is empowered by revelations, supported by reason, fortified by the freedom of choice, and guided by various social and psychological dispositions to seek and achieve relative perfection. The constant gravitation between the forces of good and evil is the struggle of life. It gives man something to look forward to, ideals to seek, work to do, and roles to play. It makes his life interesting and meaningful, not monotonous and stagnant. On the other hand, it pleases God to see His servants in a state of spiritual and moral victory.
According to the moral scale of Islam, it is not a sin that man is imperfect or fallible. This is part of his nature as a finite limited creature. But it is a sin if he has the ways and means of relative perfection and chooses not to seek it. A sin is any act, thought, or will that (1) is deliberate, (2) defies the unequivocal law of God, (3) violates the right of God or the right of man, (4) is harmful to the soul or body, (5) is committed repeatedly, and (6) is normally avoidable. These are the components of sin which is not innate or hereditary. It is true, however, that man has the potential capacity of sin latent in him; but this is not greater than his capacity of piety and goodness. If he chooses to actualize the potential of sin instead of the potential of goodness, he will be adding a new external element to his pure nature. For this added external element man alone is responsible.
It is precisely because of man’s free-will and intellect that he is able to overcome the negative influences of the environment and attain to the highest level of psycho-spiritual development, an-nafs al-mutma’innah, ‘the self made tranquil’. At this level, his inner and outer being, his soul and body, are able to conform to the requirements of his fitrâh and the dictates of the sharî'a. He actualises his fitrâh, and attains psycho-spiritual integration and inner peace.
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