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chinkkie
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Posted: Wednesday December 22nd, 2004 22:31 |
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http://jamaat.net/bible/AwakeArticle(1957).html
So why do christians not question the bible as they question the Quran?
The above article is a prime example of modern christian teaching which lists many bible errors, contradictions, discrepancies and text changes which are scientifically proven, but the bible is still argued to be reliable and beyond all doubt, Gods word... and the people ask no questions!!
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MyThoughts
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Posted: Wednesday December 22nd, 2004 22:44 |
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Why are people so obssessed with other people's religions...surely it makes no sense....follow your path...why come to attempt to discredit someone else...if you wanted a debate that is a trifle bit different...but u come at it already trying to prove the facts that the bible has faults...
Have u done the same for the qu'ran...looked for and found discrepancies...or do u believe and have faith that it is perfect...you see that is the thing with organised religion of any kind it is just that a BELIEF and one persons FAITH in it...
Personally I don't agree with any...don't really need a religion...
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chinkkie
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Posted: Wednesday December 22nd, 2004 23:00 |
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just in case you missed it... the debate is.....
"so why do christians not question the bible as they question the Quran?"
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MyThoughts
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Posted: Wednesday December 22nd, 2004 23:09 |
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| Like I said above...works both ways...that ain't a debate really is it...in fact you are actually doing what you claim Christians are doing...go figure...
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chinkkie
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Posted: Wednesday December 22nd, 2004 23:57 |
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...thats debatable..... go figure....
btw.. Islam has been questioned and no errors, contradictions, discrepancies and text changes have been authentically found or proven.
http://www.blackchat.co.uk/theblackforum/forum26/2531.html
http://www.islaminfo.com/articleview.asp?level=15&catID=2
http://www.beconvinced.com/SCIENCEINDEX.htm
Last edited on Thursday December 23rd, 2004 00:03 by chinkkie
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MyThoughts
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Posted: Thursday December 23rd, 2004 00:27 |
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See what I am saying... u are Muslim...see nothing wrong within the religion so why do u wanna talk about the bible when u perceive as no fault in ur own religion...u should be content...why are u not content with that...the religion u follow is perfect...why belittle another....hmmmm...if is not an attempt to recruit...why 
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chinkkie
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Posted: Friday December 24th, 2004 04:29 |
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Why...
To inform.....
.........which is a relavant exercise on a religious forum.
If this serves to belittle one religion and recruit for another then so be it. I have merely promoted the truth as it is written and these consequences would be a correlation with it.
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geeg
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Posted: Friday December 24th, 2004 21:13 |
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have to agree with chinkie
but promoting that its the truth!?hmmm DONT THINK SO
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LadyDay
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Posted: Friday December 24th, 2004 21:41 |
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umm i diont see why people always want to discredit other religions as mythoughts clearly stated. if a debate was put forward where people can discuss there religious convictions without trying to discredit others than that would be good...otherwise these threads prove worthless.... the devil is a liar.... but God reigns supreme...
Last edited on Friday December 31st, 2004 18:09 by LadyDay
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chinkkie
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Posted: Sunday December 26th, 2004 00:57 |
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^^^ you see you missed the point.
Whether there is 50,000 errors, 5000 errors, 50 errors, or a few neglible errors in the bible, the fact is that errors exist and remain in the bible and therefore it cannot be called reliable and the word of god. If the bible is gods word, or inspired by god, does this mean that god made mistakes. If god makes mistakes then it is impossible for him to reaign supreme in the context of being all knowing, all powerful, and faultless, etc., Or.. the bible was written by liars, it is not gods word and is therefore worthless as the word of god.
So my point is "So why do christians not question the bible as they question the Quran?"
Many christians seem to spend much time trying to find faults/errors/discrepancies in the Quran which have not been found in the past 1400 years, when their own "book of god" has errors in it. I do not understand this... this is like failing an exam and then trying to find errors in the paper of the guy that got 100%, when what they should be doing is checking their mistakes to see if they were mistakes, or trying to find the right knowledge that is error free so they can get 100% too.
Is the Bible Gods Word? by Ahmad Deedat.
http://jamaat.net/bible/Bible1-3.htmlLast edited on Sunday December 26th, 2004 00:59 by chinkkie
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LadyDay
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Posted: Sunday December 26th, 2004 12:59 |
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i dont trust the koran is error free especially since you guys praise and worship a dead prophet and not the living God.
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chinkkie
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Posted: Sunday December 26th, 2004 15:24 |
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Ladyday...
You just proved my point. You assume that Muslims make the mistake of worshipping a prophet, when they do not, but you fail to question your own religion which tells you Jesus is god, even though Jesus said he is not!!
"by me own self i can do nothing (john 5:30)"
According to Islamic belief, the Prophet Muhammad was the last Messenger of God. He, like all of God's prophets and messengers - such as Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus -- was only a human being. Christians came to the mistaken assumption that Muslims worship Muhammad by formulating an incorrect analogy - they worship Jesus so they assumed Muslims worship Muhammad. This is one of the reasons that they called Muslims by the incorrect name "Mohammedans" for so many years! Muhammad, like Jesus, never claimed divine status. He called people to worship only Almighty God, and he continually emphasized his humanity so that people would not fall into the same errors as Christians did in regards to Jesus. In order to prevent his deification, the Prophet Muhammad always said to refer to him as "the Messenger of God and His slave". Muhammad was chosen to be God's final messenger --- to communicate the message not only in words but to be a living example of the message. Muslims love and respect him because he was of the highest moral character and he brought the Truth from God - which is the Pure Monotheism of Islam. Even when Islam was in its very early stages, God revealed that Muhammad "was sent as a mercy to all of mankind" - thus informing us that the message of Islam would become very widespread. Muslims strive to follow the great example of Muhammad, peace be upon him, but they do not worship him in any way. Additionally, Islam teaches Muslims to respect all of God's prophets and messengers - but respecting and loving them does not mean worshipping them. All true Muslims realize that all worship and prayer must be directed to Almighty God alone. Suffice it to say that worshipping Muhammad --- or anyone else --- along with Almighty God is considered to be the worst sin in Islam. Even if a person claims to be Muslim, but they worship and pray to other than Almighty God, this cancels and nullifies their Islam. The Declaration of Faith of Islam makes it clear that Muslims are taught only to worship God. This declaration is as follows: "There is nothing divine or worthy of being worshipped except for Almighty God, and Muhammad is the Messenger and Servant of God".
Muhammad is no more than an Apostle: many were the Apostles that passed away before him. If he died or were slain will ye then turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve him) with gratitude. (Qur'an 3: 144)
Say (O Muhammad): "We believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishma`il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes and in (Books) given to Moses, Jesus and the Prophets from their Lord; we make no distinction between one and another among them and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)." (Qur'an 3:84)
ps. since you said ..."i dont trust the koran is error free especially since you guys praise and worship a dead prophet" [ladyday]...
...and this is clearly untrue as muslims worship the one god and not a dead prophet, does that mean you now believe the Quran is free of error.
...........the debate goes on!!Last edited on Sunday December 26th, 2004 15:34 by chinkkie
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LadyDay
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Posted: Sunday December 26th, 2004 17:56 |
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the last prophet of God....ummm God's people are still on earth and prophets are still required. i dont see God saying well this is all i have left to offer you. take this mans teachings and this book a voila. there are today many prophets around, muhhamed may have been one but he is not the last.
but in turn you proved my point. as so much emphasis is put in muhhamed i cant see through muhhameds smoke screen.
Jesus is son of God, God on earth. God will send Jesus back to earth to fufill his promise and prohecy.
God is but one
it amuses me the way some muslims try to twist christianity but the devil does have his own workers
Last edited on Sunday December 26th, 2004 18:03 by LadyDay
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chinkkie
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Posted: Sunday December 26th, 2004 18:47 |
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lol....i notice you have now changed your arguement from your original post of ..."i dont trust the koran is error free especially since you guys praise and worship a dead prophet and not the living God" [ladyday]
to,
"i dont see God saying well this is all i have left to offer you. take this mans teachings and this book a voila" [ladyday]
..again you prove my point. if jesus, god or the bible did not say this then you believe further books or prophets will come. So there was more after the coming of jesus and the bible, hence, the coming of muhammad and the Quran. So why do you not believe.
So either you believe there is more after the bible and jesus, or there is not. if you believe there is, then why do you not consider the quran. if you believe there is nothing after the bible and jesus, then say so. but dont try to be diplomatic, as that contradicts your arguement.
"there are today many prophets around, muhhamed may have been one but he is not the last." [ladyday]
...so who are these prophets?. as i said, muhammad was the last prophet and last in the line of the prophets of god from adam, noah, jacob, abraham, jesus, ets. muhammad was a descendant of this bloodline as a descendant of ishmael the first son of abraham. no new prophet was to come or did come after muhammad. if they have, where are their unfallible claims to be prophets in their own words with undisputable authentic evidence. the quran also states that jesus will return, however, he is not a new prophet.
it amuses me when "christians not question the bible as they question the Quran", and try to twist Islam, but then the devil does have his own workers.
"If only the People of the Book (bible) had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors." [Quran 3:110]Last edited on Sunday December 26th, 2004 20:32 by chinkkie
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KANOBI
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Posted: Monday December 27th, 2004 03:36 |
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So why do muslims not question the Quran as they question the Bible?
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jamal786
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Posted: Monday December 27th, 2004 05:29 |
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We do.
Because if the book had errors we would not belive it as the word of god as god does not make errors and has told us in the Quran that it is error free and told us to look for an error if we have doubt it is the word of god or if we think an error may be there. if the book has errors then either the book is a fraud or god is a liar or mistaken. when we find no errors it strengthens our belief that it is the word of god, it is not a fraud, god is not a liar and does not make mistakes, and this has been a continuous occurance for the past 1400 years. therefore when it tells us that Islam is the religion for all mankind and that we must worship Allah and believe Muhammad was his final messenger, we believe. when we read we will be judged on the day of judgement for our good and bad sins, we believe. when we are told to do good and avoid badness and sin, we believe and follow this order.
We have questioned the quran If not more than the bible, as you must understand and analyse your own before you bother with other or call yours the true religion with an error free book. every point has been investigated, and not just by muslims, ....scholars are invited to analyse it whether they are from science, cultural, historical, or other religious backgrounds. this has been a must in light of the 1400 years of claims against Islam... none of which have been proven. it is because others have tried so hard to refute it and compare it to their own religion that Islam's scholars have become so concise, analytic and exact in their understanding or it, and in turn their understanding of the religions of others that have been compared to it, as this then enable one to show the Quran is unique and error free, as others are not and many cannot make this claim. the Quran is the word of god and is a cornerstone of the islamic faith, therefore its authenticity is paramount. i must read and research it to believe... if i do not, then i cannot tell you to believe, and my faith is then weak or invalid.
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LadyDay
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Posted: Monday December 27th, 2004 15:07 |
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chinkkie get over yourself. the way i see it Jesus is son of God, so He is different to this so called prophet muhhamed. muhhamed is dead Jesus is alive. simple tings.
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Posted: Monday December 27th, 2004 17:46 |
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@Chinkie,
Who sat down and worked out there was 50,000 error's in the bible ? did someone take a computer and do this ? Or was these just learned men that arrived at this conclusion ?.. Did these men approach the book having a biased toward it or against it ?.
The bible purports to be written by men inspired of God, having in them at the time the Spirit of God, or the Spirit moved upon them to write....
So then the men or computers that find these error's are they inspired, do they have knowledge of the same source, so they can decipher the deep meanings of the bible. Or what they don't understand, they merely call it an error ?
Are you a muslim Chinkie ?
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jamal786
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Posted: Monday December 27th, 2004 17:47 |
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Ladyday.... yes you are correct in that prophet jesus and prophet muhammad are two different people. Both were prophets and neither were god, or claimed to be god. muhammad died on earth as many prophets did, whilst jesus was raised up to heaven by Allah.
(Quran 5:75) "Christ the son of Mary was no more than an apostle; many were the apostles that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!"
(Quran 3:55) "Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute."
(Quran 4:157-158) "That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;- "
The Holy Qur'an
http://www.islam101.com/quran/yusufAli/index.htmLast edited on Monday December 27th, 2004 17:59 by jamal786
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jamal786
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Posted: Monday December 27th, 2004 17:54 |
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For further explanation regarding errors, inspiration errors, compilation errors...etc...
Is the Bible Gods Word? by Ahmad Deedat.
http://jamaat.net/bible/Bible1-3.html
Last edited on Monday December 27th, 2004 17:58 by jamal786
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Justavoice
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Posted: Monday December 27th, 2004 17:59 |
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Another thing... the bible or lets start with the Torah, (The law) was only a school master or guide to lead us to the Christ to come.
If you notice when Jesus came into the synagogue, it writes that he read from the book of the prophets and then He closed the book.
The bible is not trying to be what the Koran attempts to be... it as a purpose only to lead us to Jesus, once a man as found Jesus, an higher discipline than just writings in a book is then required of the believer. Hence God's word to Moses, I will write the law upon their hearts.
The Bible is in no competition with the Koran.... (trust me).
The true writing will translate itself from writings in a book to the living word upon our hearts into the depth of our consciousness.
Hence the Word become flesh again, not with Just Jesus who is the first fruit, but us also, the word will become a tangible substance also to us, it will come alive.
This 50,000 errors, don't you understand that while Israel escaped out of Egypt God caused the there to be a fire which lit the way for Israel, while darkness fell upon the land for Egypt...
this is playing out right now in this present day, for that one book is darkness to some and light to so many in different parts of the world.
50,000 errors, i'm surprised thats all they could find.
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Posted: Monday December 27th, 2004 18:11 |
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Jamal,
Let me tell you something, God said men prefer a lie more than the truth. And because of this he send them strong delusion. Islam is a strong delusion, and trust me, I don't bat an eye to say it, never will you see me try to entertain the beliefs of Islam...
Why I like the faith I belong to is, it as its birth in Judaism, of which you say you also believe our prophets yet you do not understand the writings of those prophets or the significance of the things they wrote.
All you do is pay lip service, crying Moses PBUH, but not understanding the things which Moses wrote. Speaking of your glorious Koran, while pledging a weird allegiance to men such as Moses whose writings are contained within the Judaic and Christian scriptures, of which you guys sit down to butcher what is written.
I really have no time for them.... God is looking for us to pull out of such battles it is pointless.
you are caught in a heresy but you cannot see it and it is a dangerous place to be in spiritually.
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jamal786
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Posted: Monday December 27th, 2004 18:17 |
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Just a Voice...
i would agree with what you about bible errors and also say that is my understanding of the bible also. In essence it is a good book, and in essence its teaching ie the teaching of moses and jesus and the other prophets mentioned in it is very good and have done wonders for the people.
My thread was merely in response to those present here that refused to open their eyes to the Qur'an in the same way which is their fair choice, but then move on to says it has errors, lies... etc in comparison to the bible which they think has not. Hence my question, "So why do christians not question the bible as they question the Quran?", particularly since it is widely accepted that the bible has errors and the Qur'an does not.
My veiw is that one cannot get the full understanding, inspiration or benefits from the bible as it is riddled with error and the subjectivity of man that constantly changed, added to and altered it to corrupt the recorded teaching of mose, jesus and the like, and justify their traditions and doctorines, which is historically proven.
Therefore it is better to base a faith/belief on a firm and true foundation as is the Quran and Islam.
However, this is not for everybody and others are not yet ready. Life is a learning process and the constant thing is that things change as do our minds. Therefore there is hope for everyone and in the meantime this does not mean that all non-muslims will burn in hell or not reach heaven, as many are good people, of a good nature, that commit good deeds, and this includes christians and jews, and the Qur'an supports this.
Last edited on Monday December 27th, 2004 18:20 by jamal786
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Posted: Monday December 27th, 2004 18:30 |
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You can tell me what god, jesus or moses said as you cannot be sure which is the word of god and which is the word of man, scholars, king james..etc.
God said...
"If only the People of the Book (bible) had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors." (Quran 3:110)
The Qur'an replaces the coruppted religions and books that came before it. It is not a new religion, but a re-expression of the true religion of the one god known in the arabic language as Allah.
You say the Qur'an is a delusion, but in fact it is you that is deluded.
The Amazing Qur'an
http://www.quran.org.uk/ieb_quran_gmiller.htm
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jamal786
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Posted: Monday December 27th, 2004 18:36 |
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"We have indeed revealed this (Message) in the Night of Power" (97:1).
"And what will explain to thee what the night of power is?
The Night of Power is better than a thousand months.
Therein come down the angels and the Spirit by Allah.s permission, on every errand" (97:2-5).
"The seven heavens and the earth, and all beings therein, declare His glory: there is not a thing but celebrates His praise; And yet ye understand not how they declare His glory! Verily He is Oft-Forbear, Most Forgiving!" (17:44).
"And (it is) a Qur'an which We have divided (into parts), in order that you may recite it to men at intervals. And We have revealed it by stages" (17:106).
" And even if We had sent down unto you (O Muhammad) a Message written on paper so that they could touch it with their hands, the disbelievers would have said: 'This is nothing but plain sorcery." (6:7).
"This day I have perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion." (5:3).
I posted an extract from The Amazing Quran but have now removed it as the link is here and those wih intrest will click on it.
http://www.quran.org.uk/ieb_quran_gmiller.htmLast edited on Monday December 27th, 2004 18:43 by jamal786
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LadyDay
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Posted: Monday December 27th, 2004 18:55 |
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jamal786 wrote: Ladyday.... yes you are correct in that prophet jesus and prophet muhammad are two different people. Both were prophets and neither were god, or claimed to be god. muhammad died on earth as many prophets did, whilst jesus was raised up to heaven by Allah.
(Quran 3:55) "Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute."
your book confirms what we christians know have known for time. Jesus son of God is alive and is with the Father waiting to return to earth. in your quote it clearly says I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith so if your book shows that you should be following in the way Jesus came to earth and showed why dont you!!!!! you have proved my point all the same . Jesus us far superior to this muhammed who does not even impact on the lives of many.
you cant try to tarnish God's word (Holy Bible) all you want but it will never work.
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jamal786
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Posted: Monday December 27th, 2004 19:08 |
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(ladyday).. "Jesus us far superior to this muhammed who does not even impact on the lives of many."
...where did you read that. The quote you refer to regards those who rejest faith. Muhammad did not reject faith, he promoted the word of god, which impacted on the lives of millions which are muslims today... the fastest growing religion.
Say (O Muhammad): "We believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishma`il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes and in (Books) given to Moses, Jesus and the Prophets from their Lord; we make NO DISTINCTION between one and another among them and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)." (Qur'an 3:84)
"This day I have perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you ISLAM as your religion." (5:3).
"If only the People of the Book (bible) had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors." (Quran 3:110)
Btw... the bible as we know it today tarnishes itself
Is the Bible Gods Word? by Ahmad Deedat.
http://jamaat.net/bible/Bible1-3.html Last edited on Monday December 27th, 2004 19:10 by jamal786
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LadyDay
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Posted: Monday December 27th, 2004 19:15 |
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why does the koran speak of religion. God is above religion. my faith is in God.
the koran is mis-leading you... 
all the things you say are your own perspective and interpretation
Last edited on Monday December 27th, 2004 19:17 by LadyDay
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jamal786
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Posted: Monday December 27th, 2004 19:25 |
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(ladyday) "the koran is mis-leading you"
Why, because the Qur'an says worship the one god and believe in his prophets and the day of judgement.
Religion: 1. belief in the existence of a superhuman controlling power, especially god, usually expressed in worship. 2. particular system of faith and worship.
"This day I have perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you ISLAM as your religion." (Quran 5:3). Last edited on Monday December 27th, 2004 19:53 by jamal786
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Posted: Monday December 27th, 2004 20:38 |
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Jamal,
In centuries to come, men will say the koran is corrupted.
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Posted: Monday December 27th, 2004 20:39 |
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| However I doub't we have centuries to come.
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jamal786
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Posted: Monday December 27th, 2004 20:45 |
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"the koran is mis-leading you"
"all the things you say are your own perspective and interpretation"
"i dont trust the koran is error free"
"i dont see God saying...."
"Islam is a strong delusion"
"you are caught in a heresy but you cannot see it"
"you guys sit down to butcher what is written"
...blah... ..blah... ....blah...
....So why do christians not question the bible as they question the Quran?
..the debate goes on!
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jamal786
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Posted: Monday December 27th, 2004 20:50 |
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"In centuries to come, men will say the koran is corrupted." (justavoice)
..men already say the Qur'an is corrupted, however, unlike the bible (both testaments), the fact remains that in the past 1400 years they have been UNABLE to prove it, and therefore ISLAM has continued to grow. It is the fastest growing religion today.
....So why do christians not question the bible as they question the Quran? Last edited on Monday December 27th, 2004 20:57 by jamal786
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LadyDay
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Posted: Monday December 27th, 2004 23:11 |
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| @ justavoice i really like what you have in your signature, thats really good
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KANOBI
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Posted: Tuesday December 28th, 2004 04:55 |
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The Quran is a lot younger than the Bible and it written by one person in a shorter space of time. The Quran has also been through less events than the bible so the survival of the Bible says much more than the Qurans. How can the I believe the Quran is a reliable of historical book? Even when explaining events that happened within the time it was written it all came from one person and one time period that’s not reliable enough. Also why would God create a book written by the prophets over ages and then discard it. If he would do that to the Bible he could do that to the Quran. The Bible was the word of God but God could not prevent his message from being lost? Also the thing that convinces people of a religion should be the message the Bible has a more powerful message.
Last edited on Tuesday December 28th, 2004 06:18 by KANOBI
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jamal786
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Posted: Tuesday December 28th, 2004 15:04 |
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Kanobi....
I would not advise you to just believe the Qur'an is reliable either without checking it out first. you may then think it is reliable, or you may not... at least then your decision would be an informed one and backed with substantial objective evidence.
The Qur'an does not claim to be an historical book, but does include information that is historical, geographical, scientific, biological, botanic, astronimic, spiritual, etc, all of which have been proven reliable and accruate by science etc.
The Qur'an was revealed over a period, but then so was the teaching of moses and jesus. God did not instruct the message of the bible to be written... Jesus did not write his message down and Moses smashed the commandments, whereas Muhammad instructed the Qur'an to be recited and written. It is a good thing that the Qur'an can be attributed to a single author of prophethood, rather than being authored by many that where not prophets and had not received gods message or any authority to compose one.
Whatever the Prophet Moses preached to his people was the revelation from God Almighty, but Moses was not the author of those "books" now attributed to him by the Jews and the Christians.
Likewise, the revelation of God granted to David that the present Psalms associate with his name are not that revelation.
The "Gospel" or "good news" which Jesus Christ preached during his short ministry are frequently-used words, but Of the books of the New Testament, only a small fraction can be accepted as the words of Jesus. The Christians boast about the Gospels according to St. Matthew, according to St. Mark, according to St. Luke and according to St. John, but there is not a single Gospel "according" to (St.) Jesus himself. Everything Christ preached was from God, but in his life-time Jesus never wrote a single word, nor did he instruct anyone to do so. What passes off as the "GOSPELS" today are the works of anonymous hands, and have been so changed and altered that they bear little, if any, resemblance to the original teaching which descended upon Jesus.
"Proclaim! (or read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher" (Qur'an 96:1)
"This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you ISLAM as your religion". (Qur'an 5:3)
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Reuben
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Posted: Tuesday December 28th, 2004 18:26 |
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chinkkie wrote: http://jamaat.net/bible/AwakeArticle(1957).html
So why do christians not question the bible as they question the Quran?
The above article is a prime example of modern christian teaching which lists many bible errors, contradictions, discrepancies and text changes which are scientifically proven, but the bible is still argued to be reliable and beyond all doubt, Gods word... and the people ask no questions!!
read the origina hebrew and tell me where the mistakes are in that. nobody truly cares about islam cos its false. just a book written to pacify those who werent the children of israel. do you know that the other blacks that they say sold us into slavery were black muslims?
http://www.hebrewisraelites.org/hebrewism.htm
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Posted: Tuesday December 28th, 2004 19:31 |
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"read the origina hebrew and tell me where the mistakes are in that. nobody truly cares about islam cos its false. just a book written to pacify those who werent the children of israel." (reuben)
Firstly, i do not read hebrew and are therefore limited in answering about the original hebrew bible.
The Tauraat we Muslims believe in is not the "Torah" of the Jews and the Christians, though the words — one Arabic, the other Hebrew — are the same. We believe that whatever the Holy Prophet Moses preached to his people, was the revelation from God Almighty, but that Moses was not the author of those "books" attributed to him by the Jews and the Christians
In the first five books of the Bible — Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy — there are more than 700 statements which prove not only that God is NOT the Author of these books, but that EVEN Moses himself had no hand in them. Open these books at random and you will see:
"And the Lord said unto him. Away, get thee down . . ."
"And Moses said unto the Lord, the people cannot come. . ."
"And the Lord said unto Moses, Go on before the people . . ."
"And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying . . ."
"And the Lord said unto Moses, Get down, charge the . . ."
It is manifest and apparent that these are NEITHER the Words of God NOR of Moses. They indicate the voice of a third person writing from hearsay.
MOSES WRITES HIS OWN OBITUARY?
Could Moses had been a contributor to his own obituary before his demise? Did the Jews write their own obituaries? "So Moses . . . DIED . . . And he (God Almighty) BURIED HIM (Moses) ... he was 120 years old when he DIED ... And there arose not a prophet SINCE in Israel like unto Moses …" (Deut. 34:5-10).
Let me conclude this "authorship" search with the verdict of those 32 scholars, backed by their 50 co-operating denominations. God had been eliminated from this authorship race long ago. In the RSV by "Collins," invaluable notes on "The Books of the Bible" are to be found at the back of their production. I am reproducing only a bit of that information on below. We start with "GENESIS" — the first book of the Bible. The scholars say about its "AUTHOR": "One of the 'five books of Moses'." Note the words "five books of Moses" are written in inverted commas — " " This is a subtle way of admitting that this is what people say — that it is the book of Moses, that Moses was its author, but we (the 32 scholars) who are better informed, do not subscribe to that tittle-tattel.
The next four books, "EXODUS, LEVITICUS, NUMBERS and DEUTERONOMY": AUTHOR? "Generally credited to Moses."
This is the same category as the book of Genesis.
Who is the author of the book of "JUDGES?" Answer: "Possibly Samuel."
Who is the author of the book of "JOSHUA?" Answer: "Major part credited to Joshua."
Who is the author of "RUTH?" Answer: "Not definitely known" AND
Who is the author of:
1ST SAMUEL?............ Answer: Author "Unknown"
2ND SAMUEL........... Answer: Author "Unknown"
1ST KING?................. Answer: Author "Unknown"
2ND KING?............... Answer: Author "Unknown"
1st CHRONICLES? …. Answer: Author "Unknown, probably …"
2st CHRONICLES? …. Answer: Author "Likely collected …"
THE BOOKS OF THE BIBLE
GENESIS
AUTHOR One of the "five
books of Moses."
EXODUS
AUTHOR Generally
credited to Moses.
LEVITICUS
AUTHOR Generally
credited to Moses.
NUMBERS
AUTHOR Generally
credited to Moses.
DEUTERONOMY
AUTHOR Generally
credited to Moses.
JOSHUA
AUTHOR. Major part
credited to Joshua.
JUDGES
AUTHOR. Possibly Samuel,
RUTH
AUTHOR. Not definitely known, perhaps Samuel.
FIRST SAMUEL
AUTHOR. Unknown.
SECOND SAMUEL
AUTHOR. Unknown.
FIRST KINGS
AUTHOR. Unknown.
SECOND KINGS
AUTHOR. Unknown.
FIRST CHRONICLES
AUTHOR. Unknown,
probably collected and
edited by Ezra.
SECOND CHRONICLES
AUTHOR. Likely collected
and edited by Ezra.
EZRA
AUTHOR. Probably written
or edited by Ezra.
ESTHER
AUTHOR. Unknown.
JOB
AUTHOR. Unknown.
PSALMS
AUTHOR. Principally David,
though there are other writers.
ECCLESIASTES
AUTHOR. Doubtful, but
commonly assigned to Solomon.
ISAIAH
AUTHOR. Mainly credited
to Isaiah. Parts may have been
written by others.
JONAH
AUTHOR. Unknown.
HABAKKUK
AUTHOR. Nothing known of
the place or time of his birth.
The above facts are from Collins' R.S.V. 1971. Pages 12-17.
And so the story goes. The authors of these anonymous books are either "UNKNOWN" or are "PROBABLY" or "LIKELY" or are of "DOUBTFUL" origin. Why blame God for this fiasco? The Long-suffering and Merciful God did not wait for two thousand years for Bible scholars to tell us that He was not the Author of Jewish peccadilloes, prides and prejudices; of their lusts, wranglings, jealousies and enormities. He said it openly what they do:-
(Qur'an 2:79) "Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby."
** So why do christians not question the bible as they question the Quran? **
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jamal786
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Posted: Tuesday December 28th, 2004 20:09 |
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"read the origina hebrew and tell me where the mistakes are in that. nobody truly cares about islam cos its false. just a book written to pacify those who werent the children of israel" (rueben)
.....did you mean original hebrew scriptures/manuscripts... or ...original hebrew COPIES of the original hebrew scriptures/manuscripts?
"Christians readily admit, however, that there have been 'scribal errors' in the copies of the Old and New Testament. It is beyond the capability of anyone to avoid any and every slip of the pen in copying page after page from any book, sacred or secular. Yet we may be sure that the original manuscript (better known as autograph) of each book of the Bible, being directly inspired by God, was free from all error. Those originals, however, because of the early date of their inception no longer exist." http://debate.org.uk/topics/apolog/contrads.htm
"Because we are dealing with accounts which were written thousands of years ago, we would not expect to have the originals in our possession today, as they would have disintegrated long ago. We are therefore dependent on the copies taken from copies of those originals, which were in turn continually copied out over a period of centuries. Those who did the copying were prone to making two types of scribal errors. One concerned the spelling of proper names, and the other had to do with numbers."
"Most Christians will affirm that the Bible is our rule of faith and practice. It is a little self contradictory to stand in the pulpit and say the word of God is inspired, when in his heart the pastor knows he is not referring to any book here on this earth that people can hold in their hands and believe. He really should say what he believes - that the word of God WAS inspired at one time but we no longer have it, so the best we can do is hope we have a close approximation of what God probably meant to tell us."
"It also seems a bit inconsistent to say he believes the originals were inspired, when he has never seen them, they never were together in one single book and they no longer exist anyway. How does he know they were inspired? He accepts this by faith. Yet he seems to lack the faith to actually believe that God could do exactly what He said He would do with His words. God said He would preserve them and that heaven and earth would pass away but His words would not pass away."
...now read Deut 31:24-29 (people of isreal will become wickid and reject the law), and Jem 8:8 (laws changed by dishonest scribes)
** So why do christians not question the bible as they question the Quran? **
(2 urls were removed as now invalied)Last edited on Tuesday December 28th, 2004 20:22 by jamal786
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Posted: Tuesday December 28th, 2004 20:36 |
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| Can I ask a question Guys?...If Adam and Eve only had two sons where did the next generation come from? Last edited on Tuesday December 28th, 2004 20:37 by cockneybouy
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