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The Watcher
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Posted: Sunday May 20th, 2007 00:35 |
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Surely the Romans already knew where Jesus was. He had been in Jerusalem for a few days with big fat crowds all round him and openly preaching and even kicking up a fuss. He wasn't exactly hiding or being secretive.
So how did Judas "betray" him?
Why would he need to point Jesus out with a kiss when surely the Romans already knew who he was?
I mean if random people around a camp fire can pick out Peter who wasn't famous then surely the legionarys patrolling the streets in Jerusalem can pick out the man who's been preaching to thousands for a week...
So what did Judas do wrong?
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safetyblitz
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Posted: Sunday May 20th, 2007 13:21 |
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The Watcher wrote: Surely the Romans already knew where Jesus was. He had been in Jerusalem for a few days with big fat crowds all round him and openly preaching and even kicking up a fuss. He wasn't exactly hiding or being secretive.
So how did Judas "betray" him?
Why would he need to point Jesus out with a kiss when surely the Romans already knew who he was?
I mean if random people around a camp fire can pick out Peter who wasn't famous then surely the legionarys patrolling the streets in Jerusalem can pick out the man who's been preaching to thousands for a week...
So what did Judas do wrong?
C'mon man. Even in the drug trade, diming your partner out after you have rolled with for years is considered snitching LOL We can say the same thing with undercover stings when one criminal turns on another and the police already know who they are going after. LOL
Plus you have to remember that the Romans had their own Gods and no photo ids. Maybe a painted Rock at best, so they needed the "point" man 
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Happiness
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Posted: Sunday May 20th, 2007 13:27 |
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The Watcher wrote: Surely the Romans already knew where Jesus was. He had been in Jerusalem for a few days with big fat crowds all round him and openly preaching and even kicking up a fuss. He wasn't exactly hiding or being secretive.
So how did Judas "betray" him?
Why would he need to point Jesus out with a kiss when surely the Romans already knew who he was?
I mean if random people around a camp fire can pick out Peter who wasn't famous then surely the legionarys patrolling the streets in Jerusalem can pick out the man who's been preaching to thousands for a week...
So what did Judas do wrong?
@Watcher, you are speaking like a typical 21st Century man!
we take it for granted because in our age we know the faces of famous people....but in an age without media, how would one have really known which, in the crowd, was Jesus? There was no camera, no newspaper...nothing...so just think....how would they have known which man in the crowd was Jesus?
The Romans knew his whereabouts but they did not know the man.
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The Watcher
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Posted: Sunday May 20th, 2007 13:52 |
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Happiness
2000 years ago a man walking about a city (citys not as big back then so lets say town) with crowds of thousands following him every day... are you pretending the legionarys wouldn't know him on sight? Given that historically at that time the Romans were having problems with the Jews and uprisings. They knew where he was.
Jesus wasn't hiding. I don't remember him being secretive or sneaky in the gospels. He was out in the open all day long for a whole week. Look at the way he entered the city. You're telling me not one Roman saw that?
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Happiness
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Posted: Sunday May 20th, 2007 14:48 |
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@ Watcher - How could you possibly recognise someone that you dont know?
Why/how would...could the Roman's have known Jesus' face?
Jesus could have eluded his arrest had Judas not revealed him to the Roman's. The Roman's did not know what he looked like. they did not attend his gatherings so how could they have known Jesus by face?
The Romans, as a I remember, were not part of the crowd entering the city. That was the Passover - a Jewish feast- Roman's would not have been interested.
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safetyblitz
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Posted: Sunday May 20th, 2007 15:10 |
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Sorry Watcher, I looked at it that way as well. They may have heard of Jesus and knew he was the Jewish savior, but may not have been interested enough to see him.
Remember you said that you read the bible and even the Roman ruler when he asked the crowd whom to put to death was surprised that they chose Jesus because he was not a criminal and had done nothing wrong. Telling you in a sense that the Romans did not care one way or another whether Jesus lived or died.
It is close to asking a regular American on the street in this time instant media to pick out David Beckham from a list of blond European footballers and 99.99% of the people chosen would not know whom to choose from. Because Becks is not important in their circles.
Same with the Romans and Jesus. Well to me anyway. Hopefully this sheds some light on it from our perspective anyway.
Still you have to admit, Judas was a sellout. LOL
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The Watcher
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Posted: Sunday May 20th, 2007 15:17 |
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Judas wasn't a sellout because Jesus sort of condoned what he did and sent him out.
Jesus didn't enter Jerusalem on passover. He entered on Palm sunday which was back then a regular day. Only there were people lining the street to greet him in dramatic fashion. You say the Romans wouldn't have attended his gatherings but then they wouldn't have to since they were open air and the very presence of them was a public disturbance.
You say Americans wouldn't pick out beckham but they'd pick Bin Laden out fast enough. Bare in mind Jesus would have been viewed like a terrorist by the authorities.
Also another point. You don't need Judas because it wasn't the Romans who initially tried Jesus. It was the Jews themselves and then they later gave him to the Romans. You're gonna tell me now that the Jews themselves didn't recognise the Jesus who was preaching to their people, got them riled up and disturbed the temple?
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safetyblitz
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Posted: Sunday May 20th, 2007 15:37 |
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I don't care how you try to sugar coat it. Turning on your own man is still frowned upon by most subcultures including your own whether Jesus said he forgave him or not.
Oh and Binh Ladin is infamous and CONCERNS Americans (well in their thoughts anyway)
Why would a Jewish self proclaimed Son of God be of any concern to the Romans who had many Gods?
Last edited on Sunday May 20th, 2007 15:39 by safetyblitz
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The Watcher
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Posted: Sunday May 20th, 2007 16:29 |
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Umm because the Romans were occupying Israel at the time and the Jewish common folk were hailing him as a leader. The were talking about the "messiah" and Jesus mentioned severa times his fathers "kindom". I think you should read about the time of Jesus in a historical sense from sources other than the bible. Jesus was an insurgent lol The Romans had their puppet regime of Jews (the Herods etc) to keep control but a new rebel leader talking about a kingdom and getting rid of oppressors and so on. Sure we think we know what he meant because he explained himself to the disciples in private but look at his public words and deads. Many modern theologans place Jesus among the zealots or essenes. Either way, no friend of Roman.
Your reasoning is silly Safety. Why did the Romans kill christians by the thousands for a few hundred years? You think their Pantheon of Gods stopped them then? Jesus was a threat in that he was stirring up the people they were oppressing.
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Happiness
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Posted: Sunday May 20th, 2007 16:31 |
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The Watcher wrote: Judas wasn't a sellout because Jesus sort of condoned what he did and sent him out.
Jesus didn't enter Jerusalem on passover. He entered on Palm sunday which was back then a regular day. Only there were people lining the street to greet him in dramatic fashion. You say the Romans wouldn't have attended his gatherings but then they wouldn't have to since they were open air and the very presence of them was a public disturbance.
You say Americans wouldn't pick out beckham but they'd pick Bin Laden out fast enough. Bare in mind Jesus would have been viewed like a terrorist by the authorities.
Also another point. You don't need Judas because it wasn't the Romans who initially tried Jesus. It was the Jews themselves and then they later gave him to the Romans. You're gonna tell me now that the Jews themselves didn't recognise the Jesus who was preaching to their people, got them riled up and disturbed the temple?
@ Watcher - as always an interesting thread.
well, I think there is a Gospel of Judas that says something along the lines of what you write; namely, that Judas did not betray Jesus but simply did what Jesus told him to do in order to fulfil the old testament
There are so many stories with regards to the motivation of Judas to reveal Jesus to the Soldiers....and I suppose depending on what you believe, Judas was either good or bad.
I personally believe that Judas betrayed Jesus and that Jesus foretold it. I also believe that Jesus realised that he had to be betrayed in order to fulfil the OT and he told Judas to do what he had to do.
maybe, the betrayal was Judas bringing the soldiers into the camp....afterall if I remember, it was Judas who went to meet the Romans....actually it was the high priests - in order to make his deal.
Watcher, even if you think that the Romans knew what Jesus looked like (which I am not convinced of) - they still did not have access to Jesus. He was always surrounded by large crowds and was probably inaccessible to his enemies. I do think that Judas bringing the soldiers into the camp made Jesus vulnerable.
The kiss was to positively ID Jesus.
I remember writing an essay on this in "O"-Level religion many years ago!
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then you haven't even begun to think about what it means to be human" ~ Dr C.T.Vivian
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The Watcher
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Posted: Sunday May 20th, 2007 16:41 |
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Happiness wrote: The Watcher wrote: Judas wasn't a sellout because Jesus sort of condoned what he did and sent him out.
Jesus didn't enter Jerusalem on passover. He entered on Palm sunday which was back then a regular day. Only there were people lining the street to greet him in dramatic fashion. You say the Romans wouldn't have attended his gatherings but then they wouldn't have to since they were open air and the very presence of them was a public disturbance.
You say Americans wouldn't pick out beckham but they'd pick Bin Laden out fast enough. Bare in mind Jesus would have been viewed like a terrorist by the authorities.
Also another point. You don't need Judas because it wasn't the Romans who initially tried Jesus. It was the Jews themselves and then they later gave him to the Romans. You're gonna tell me now that the Jews themselves didn't recognise the Jesus who was preaching to their people, got them riled up and disturbed the temple?
@ Watcher - as always an interesting thread.
well, I think there is a Gospel of Judas that says something along the lines of what you write; namely, that Judas did not betray Jesus but simply did what Jesus told him to do in order to fulfil the old testament
There are so many stories with regards to the motivation of Judas to reveal Jesus to the Soldiers....and I suppose depending on what you believe, Judas was either good or bad.
I personally believe that Judas betrayed Jesus and that Jesus foretold it. I also believe that Jesus realised that he had to be betrayed in order to fulfil the OT and he told Judas to do what he had to do.
maybe, the betrayal was Judas bringing the soldiers into the camp....afterall if I remember, it was Judas who went to meet the Romans....actually it was the high priests - in order to make his deal.
Watcher, even if you think that the Romans knew what Jesus looked like (which I am not convinced of) - they still did not have access to Jesus. He was always surrounded by large crowds and was probably inaccessible to his enemies. I do think that Judas bringing the soldiers into the camp made Jesus vulnerable.
The kiss was to positively ID Jesus.
I remember writing an essay on this in "O"-Level religion many years ago!
That's just it though Happiness! The high priests knew who he was and needed no kiss and no Judas. Lets ignore the Romans for a second then. It was Caiaphas and his motley crew that were after Jesus mostly. They were the ones working with the Romans and they were the ones who knew EXACTLY who he was. How many times had Jesus confronted the Pharisees and priests during his career? I'm sure they knew him intimately.
As for danger lol, there were twelve men sitting in a garden at night time. Not exactly Caros the Jackal for hide and go seek skills.
I think Jesus planted the idea in Judas head. He practically told him, he knew the score and it was okay. Jesus and Judas were in Cahoots lol.
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Happiness
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Posted: Sunday May 20th, 2007 16:55 |
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Watcher - have you by any chance read the Gospel of Judas?
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The Watcher
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Posted: Sunday May 20th, 2007 16:57 |
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Heard of it Happiness but never read it. I wasn't aware it was available to read. I thought it was one of those mythical things like Mary Magdelene's supposed gospel.
Where would Judas have had time to explain himself in writing? He was found hung in a tree not long after Jesus "capture".
Last edited on Sunday May 20th, 2007 16:57 by The Watcher
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Posted: Sunday May 20th, 2007 17:05 |
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it was aparently written 300 years after the death of Christ so I am sure it was not written by Judas!
There was a documentary about it...I have to remember where I saw it.
I will get back to you on that.
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Happiness
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Posted: Sunday May 20th, 2007 17:28 |
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http://www.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/about.html
@ Watcher - you can also read the actual text from this site
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The Watcher
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Posted: Monday May 21st, 2007 13:47 |
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Thats interesting Happiness, it doesn't read like the others gospels in style at all. Seems odd somehow.
I still don't see how Judas himself had anything to do with this text though.
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safetyblitz
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Posted: Monday May 21st, 2007 13:55 |
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The Watcher wrote: Umm because the Romans were occupying Israel at the time and the Jewish common folk were hailing him as a leader. The were talking about the "messiah" and Jesus mentioned severa times his fathers "kindom". I think you should read about the time of Jesus in a historical sense from sources other than the bible. Jesus was an insurgent lol The Romans had their puppet regime of Jews (the Herods etc) to keep control but a new rebel leader talking about a kingdom and getting rid of oppressors and so on. Sure we think we know what he meant because he explained himself to the disciples in private but look at his public words and deads. Many modern theologans place Jesus among the zealots or essenes. Either way, no friend of Roman.
Your reasoning is silly Safety. Why did the Romans kill christians by the thousands for a few hundred years? You think their Pantheon of Gods stopped them then? Jesus was a threat in that he was stirring up the people they were oppressing.
Who was mentioning the bible as the reference? THis is the point that you came from LOL
You asked what did Judas do wrong. I said simply he sold out the dude he was rolling with. You tried to sugar coat it with the Romans and everyone else knew Jesus and that Jesus forgave him for selling him out, but still what does this have to do with action that you asked us to judge? Judas selling out his leader. Which is still wrong in any way shape or form even to this day religious or not, you are still looked upon as a traitor.
Besides how can you say I am looking at the bible simply when A.) No bible uses words like I am using in this description of the event like selling out or rolling with? B.) I am not quoting scripture.
Still again I have to agree with Happiness in the fact that you are thinking about this in modern terms. Even if Romans has heard of the 'self proclaimed God' Jesus, it does not mean they knew his face. You are mistaking knowledge and visual affirmation.
Now if Romans as a whole did not like Jesus why would they go to see him preach this new religion? Yes they may have all heard of this Jesus, but that does not mean they knew this Jesus by sight.
Also, if I remember correctly, the capturing of jesus was at night during a time when there were not street lights. Using Judas would have been logical because in the darkness of night, what if they have grabbed Paul who remained quiet in the scuffle and Jesus got away? Who best to identify him at night? Even though, Jesus allowed himself to be captured, does not mean that the people who set out to capture him knew this. THey were thinking the same way as I would if I were set on capturing him, that if I tried he would run and I did not want to mess this chance up, so I would do it right.
This is why I think that you are confusing knowledge of with saw & seen.
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The Watcher
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Posted: Monday May 21st, 2007 14:04 |
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When somebody is stirring up the populace you're supposed to be oppressing and holding down, you make it your business to know and go see. LOL ex military dude you should know better than I
Besides we've moved on from the Romans, it's clear you won't see that. But you explain to me how the Jewish high priests who knew Jesus very well and were the actual ones who arrested and first tried him would need Judas.
Caiaphas was a high priest at the temple. Jesus was at the temple running his mouth daily, cussing out money lenders and so on. Dissing people in front of the high priests and winding up the pharisees. Yeah right they needed a rat to ID him. He was in their faces.
That's like Dipset and G-Unit beefin, then Camron paying some guy to point out Fiddy. Like he doesn't know who he is lol
Oh no I sold out Fiddy!!
I think when you're so used to seeing things one way for so long, questioning the oddness of it jars and you ain't hearing me.
Last edited on Monday May 21st, 2007 14:07 by The Watcher
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Posted: Monday May 21st, 2007 15:03 |
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The Watcher wrote: When somebody is stirring up the populace you're supposed to be oppressing and holding down, you make it your business to know and go see. LOL ex military dude you should know better than I
Besides we've moved on from the Romans, it's clear you won't see that. But you explain to me how the Jewish high priests who knew Jesus very well and were the actual ones who arrested and first tried him would need Judas.
Caiaphas was a high priest at the temple. Jesus was at the temple running his mouth daily, cussing out money lenders and so on. Dissing people in front of the high priests and winding up the pharisees. Yeah right they needed a rat to ID him. He was in their faces.
That's like Dipset and G-Unit beefin, then Camron paying some guy to point out Fiddy. Like he doesn't know who he is lol
Oh no I sold out Fiddy!!
I think when you're so used to seeing things one way for so long, questioning the oddness of it jars and you ain't hearing me.
Which is where I think you are friend..... You think I am looking at this from a Christian biblical reading.
I am going off the simple fact of light. Yeah I may know who Jesus is, but we are setting Jesus up at night. Not under a street lamp.
You are still missing the point Watcher. Even if The romans had sent spies to know what Jesus looked like only those spies knew what he looked like. They did not have a camera to catch Jesus from every angle to give him a mug shot. LOL I just think you are looking at this from the wrong point, a modern point, but as you said you have moved on from the Romans and to the Jewish high priests.
If the high priests had came to capture Jesus, yes THEY would have known Jesus, but I am sure the people who came with them to capture Jesus needed something or someone to let them know. To the actual capturers all they probably knew was that Jesus was in the crowd and needed him pointed out.
I mean you say why would they need Judas to point out Jesus at night? To me as a former military man as you say, I see this as a tactic to singe him out. I mean in this time of modern day policing with hi def video and sound capturing devices, how many times have we seen the criminal turned informant do something similar to help the police set up the informant's former collegues? Even though we stay in a higher technological and lighted time, the police still on occassion need someone to ID the criminal that they have on tape, know about, and even have his picture, dna, and fingerprints.
This is why I say you are missing the point, to me the game has changed, but the RULE still is the same..... The pursuers when pushed to the point do not want any mistakes in this capture.... so they used an inside man......
And your dipset G-Unit beef hypo is wrong. With Cam calling a guy to point out Fiddy as you say is a setup, but if Cam'Ron had paid buck, lloyd banks, dre, or eminem to setup up fiddy, not only is it a set up, it is also a sell-out.
Damn using this hypo, I can argue, what did OJ, the dude who told on Denmark Vessey, or Condi Rice, I mean "What did they do wrong?"
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DrJames
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Posted: Sunday June 10th, 2007 15:03 |
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The Roman Solders did not know which one of them was exactly Jesus. Some of them might know him personally.
The girl that point out Peter know Peter.
What did Judas done wrong? Nothing"
Jesus death was not a mistake. Judas did not mean it. Maybe it was not the first time he set them on Jesus tail. Judas was waiting for Jesus to exercise his messianic role, overthrow the Roman and set up a kingdom. Jesus was taking too long, so by putting Jesus into direct combat with the Romans would force him to do what he suppose to
What did Judas done wrong? The same thing which I and you done today..
"Failing to see the plan of God for the salvation of the Jews and for the salvation of the world".
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Posted: Wednesday June 13th, 2007 14:26 |
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First and foremost, the man Jesus Christ never existed in all likelihood. However, if he had, then it is very probable that the Romans would have needed someone to direct them to him given "Ye-shua", short for Ye-ho-shua, was a common name then which simply means "Yahweh saves".
There are a few passages in the Bible that refer to other men at the time with the name "Jesus" including the following:
"and also Jesus who is called Justus; these are the only fellow workers for the kingdom of God who are from the circumcision, and they have proved to be an encouragement to me." ~Colossians 4:11
"When they had gone through the whole island as far as Paphos, they found a magician, a Jewish false prophet whose name was Bar-Jesus, ~Acts 13:6
In Acts 13:6, the praenomen "bar" in front of Jesus means "son". This passage is referring to someone who was the son of a man named "Jesus". This should be sufficient enough to conclude that given other people named Jesus existed at the time, one being a man who had a son who was a magician (which would attract crowds as well) and deemed a false prophet, it is possible that the Romans would have needed someone to disambiguate the particular "Jesus" in question.
Lastly, you must remember what Jesus' name connotes. This was the name carried by all the persons who claimed to be the Messiah, including the most famous Ye-shua ben-Pandira named in the Jewish Babylonian Talmud.
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Wednesday June 13th, 2007 14:27 |
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| (double post) Last edited on Wednesday June 13th, 2007 14:28 by Shemsi en Tehuti
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Jay Jay
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Posted: Sunday June 17th, 2007 01:54 |
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Sounds like astrotheology to me.
Judas reminds me of October the start of autumn fall w |
