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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Friday May 18th, 2007 23:40 |
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There is no doubt that God exists, but ever since the advent of religion people have been moving further and further away from understanding what God truly is. There was a time when spiritual divisiveness played almost no part in the lives of humans. This was when you found the most peace amongst civilizations of antiquity. I refuse to believe all the diviseness that religion introduces into the psyche man has anything to do with "God". In fact, it is the exact opposite of God, because (in my opinion) the collective entity of God has to do with harmony and balance in the Universe.
Next you may ask, well how do I know that God actually exists. Well, if you define God within the autistic theosophy of Abrahamic religions, then I would say that god doesn't exist. However, traditional African spirituality defines God as everything in the Universe. It is in the trees, planets, stars/sun, people, and in all the energies (both potential and actuated) in the Universe. Therefore, within an African perspective, to deny the existence of God would also be denying the existence of yourself. Which leads to the curious conclusion...if you would be stolid enough to declare that you don't exist, then how is it possible for you to be thinking about "God"?
Hotep...
Last edited on Saturday May 19th, 2007 01:29 by Shemsi en Tehuti
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HLF
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Posted: Saturday May 19th, 2007 00:41 |
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Shemsi en Tehuti wrote: There is no doubt that God exist, but ever since the advent of religion people have been moving further and further away from understanding what God truly is. There was a time when spiritual divisiveness played almost no part in the lives of humans. This was when you found the most peace amongst civilizations of antiquity. I refuse to believe all the diviseness that religion introduces into the psyche man has anything to do with "God". In fact, it is the exact opposite of God, because (in my opinion) the collective entity of God has to do with harmony and balance in the Universe.
Next you may ask, well how do I know that God actually exists. Well, if you define God within the autistic theosophy of Abrahamic religions, then I would say that god doesn't exist. However, traditional African spirituality defines God as everything in the Universe. It is in the trees, planets, stars/sun, people, and in all the energies (both potential and actuated) in the Universe. Therefore, within an African perspective, to deny the existence of God would also be denying the existence of yourself. Which leads to the curious conclusion...if you would be stolid enough to declare that you don't exist, then how is it possible for you to be thinking about "God"?
Hotep...
Yes, because you have issues with that Abrahamic God, Yahweh.
As all things/everything, are creations, all creations have a creator, an actual name and not a title. Plain and simple, I say find out exactly who is God by who answers prayers and who provides salvation. That God will be the true God.
Are you still searching for the Creator or are you keeping yourself from ever knowing him via the existence of your EGO?
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Saturday May 19th, 2007 01:28 |
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HLF wrote: Yes, because you have issues with that Abrahamic God, Yahweh.
As all things/everything, are creations, all creations have a creator, an actual name and not a title. Plain and simple, I say find out exactly who is God by who answers prayers and who provides salvation. That God will be the true God.
Are you still searching for the Creator or are you keeping yourself from ever knowing him via the existence of your EGO?
In all sincerity, do you know what the symbol is on my avatar, what it's called, where it comes from, and its significance to Yahweh or the Biblical god? All I will say is that you look like a fool to anyone who does know when you make statements like this directed at me (as you always do).
I will give you a hint...it looks similar to the Jewish "Star of David", but the Kemetic symbol in my avatar predates the Star of David by thousands of years. The Hebrew name for David is Dwd or Dawood. If you transliterate that into Mtw Ntr (Kemetic script) then it is Twt, Tuat, or Duat. Once you know the meaning of this then you will realize why I don't waste my time on the utter foolish that you speak.
Last edited on Saturday May 19th, 2007 01:31 by Shemsi en Tehuti
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Apedemak
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Posted: Saturday May 19th, 2007 03:44 |
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Jokers.
HLF makes a valid point though, no need to get personal with it but its mans ego that has driven us from that balance and common understanding. Prehaps the imbalances in those who attacked and tried to take up the teachings of certain ancient civlizations.
''My (understanding of) god is better than yours because...
*ins apparent reason*''
The kamu have plenty of creation 'myths' simply because they saw the similarities. Devolution. Prehaps as we move away from the beginning we're getting more and more lost in our search for God.
In those days scholars sought out God names, ways to describe the attributes of God. Understanding that it is all seeing, is in everything, a creative force that gives life, they looked for ways to describe it, give it a shape to best relate to. The tetragammon is one, there are many.
The 'theory' that man is God (as we were given dominion over everything) gave rise to ways and means of seeking union with it as Adam and Eve had in Eden... a state where the higer self rules ones lower self, rules ones base impulses (seven sins), a state of no free will or self awareness, this ended when they ate from the tree and they fell from that union and, 'came to know right from wrong' as, universally speaking there are no opposites, a duality is needed and is therefore unified it that need for each others exsistance. Only a few had the knowledge of God names and the science needed to achieve such a union, the Kamu and others taught men of a lower nature those sciences, giving them rules and laws to abide by.
Its obvious where egotism shatters this understanding, moses fell victim to his. In seeking and (attempting to) achive union with their higher selves (enlightenment) man began to use the knowledge gained to feed their animal nature, seeking material gain and dominion over the earth and all things within it rather than a higher understanding of attainment. The teachings of those who brought that knowledge into the world fell into the wrong hands or became misunderstood and twisted as man sought to become God rather than seek union with, harmony with, God. Seeking union with their lower selves as opposed to higher and control over, "holy land" and ancient scriptures to further dominate others. Its easy for most to see that the, three, (four?) Abrahamic religions are more or less the same, each one beliving/following this or that prophet but their division was and is needed for the few to rule (the minds of) the many.
If you look at a tarot card and understand the tree of life/Kabballah you'll see that the lowest realm/dimension is the material one, on the tarot its the card of the devil, Set, also with the attribute of division and chaos. Military, physical rulership and so on.
Man is an aspect of God as God is in everything it is within us. A divine spark the ancients knew how to unlock. The science of doing so was taught by Jesus, Buddah, the Kamu and others. Man is not God in total but as the Mtu Ntr says, 'like a glass of water from a much larger sea.'
Htp.
A
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Saturday May 19th, 2007 06:51 |
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@ Apedemak
Don't be fooled by HLF, he didn't have any real insight in mentioning man's ego as the problem, even though it is a contributing element to how more and more we lose knowledge of God. His statement was made out of his own ego, because he thinks that you must call God by the name Yahweh.
And indeed, man is not God, but we can be one with God because we are a divine aspect of the One.
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MuslimTruthRevealed
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Posted: Saturday May 19th, 2007 14:06 |
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We were 'First' mentality......oh and 'we were on a higher level of spiritual consciousness'......*man please*
'We' were fighting, raping and pillaging as much and If NOT more than any human beings who ever existed.......
Do some real research guys...Nimrod and the various other Chaeldean Kings...
Thats how Kemet was formed through territorial war!
North/South East/West all throughout the human experience oppressing creation, dominating creation.
Where are these civilisations today?
The glorification and romanticizing of past civilisations teach us more than just outdated obsolete vocabulary, that has no social, political or economic relevance.
Anyone who has children and teaches knows that the FIRST child to finish a test more often than not has the majority of the answers wrong.....
Being FIRST does NOT always represent the BEST of human capabilities
Now you can spit, chew, vomit and curse all you want.
If you are indicative of one who upholds the esoteric, spiritual and intellectual perspective of past civilisations, then certainly we can realize why they NOLONGER exist.
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MuslimTruthRevealed
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Posted: Saturday May 19th, 2007 14:14 |
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| Mitsrayim [Egypt], is representative of Upper and Lower Egypt. The name comes from the word xevn (matsowr), which means siege works, rampart, hemming in, besiege, limit, fence in. Matsowr comes from the root xev , which means to bind, to confine, compress, shut in, enclose, besiege. The suffix ending “Yim�, makes it plural. Therefore Mitsrayim means multiple hemming in, confining, cramping, assaulting, besieging, fencing in.
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Jim999
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Posted: Sunday May 20th, 2007 00:13 |
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Though I can’t say that I totally agree with any; there were some interesting points made. For those who wish to take a position on the existence of God, the Pantheistic nature of God would seem the most reasonable and compelling. After all, it would seem reasonable that if God created everything, then he must be in some way, a part of everything. Plus that takes away the exclusivity that all the major religions falsely claim with their made-up stories.
It’s true; the ancient’s new diddly squat, just like us, they were all just trying to figure it out. But unlike us, I don’t think that any of them felt that they alone had the answers. They all respected each other’s Gods, and in a great many cases, they adopted each other’s Gods into their own religions. The total assertion of one religion being better than another, didn’t occur until the Romans took over Christianity and claimed it’s universality (Catholic means universal), the Sassian Persians who were at war with Rome, responded with the assertion that Zoroastrianism was the one true Religion – and it’s been going on like that ever since – different religions, same B.S. And yes, War and Conquest was the order of the day for all of them.
HLF says:
I say find out exactly who is God by who answers prayers and who provides salvation. That God will be the true God.
I guess that means that lottery winners are the most pious and devout people of all.
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The Watcher
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Posted: Sunday May 20th, 2007 00:52 |
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| You haven't offered any more proof of a God than somebody of the Abrahamic religions. Only your own musings on the stars and trees.
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Jim999
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Posted: Sunday May 20th, 2007 02:03 |
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Watcher, do you have a problem with the written word? Just which part didn’t you understand? The point of it ALL is that I don’t know, and neither does anybody else, except fools and liars, but then again, they ARE fools and liars, how can you believe them, which one are you?
Proof of God? - What a ridiculous thought, you may be both.
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The Watcher
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Posted: Sunday May 20th, 2007 02:57 |
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| hey dickwad, I was talking to the thread starter. Take your big ego and f**k off
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HLF
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Posted: Monday May 21st, 2007 22:12 |
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Shemsi en Tehuti wrote:
In all sincerity, do you know what the symbol is on my avatar, what it's called, where it comes from, and its significance to Yahweh or the Biblical god? All I will say is that you look like a fool to anyone who does know when you make statements like this directed at me (as you always do).
I will give you a hint...it looks similar to the Jewish "Star of David", but the Kemetic symbol in my avatar predates the Star of David by thousands of years. The Hebrew name for David is Dwd or Dawood. If you transliterate that into Mtw Ntr (Kemetic script) then it is Twt, Tuat, or Duat. Once you know the meaning of this then you will realize why I don't waste my time on the utter foolish that you speak.
I do know that the Star of David wasn't mentioned anywhere in the Divine Word, but I do know one thing, that the Jews and the people of Kemet, one served and the other still serves a dark evil...but enough small talk, let's get to the real talk.
There is one perfect way to settle this, care to make a wager? I am not speaking of a tangible-money wager, I speak of an intangible wager, a wager of your spirit.
Here is the bottomline, are you willing to wage your spirit, Shemsi en Tehuti, that Yahweh is not God? This is the challenge: If Yahweh is not the proper name that God, the Architect of the Universe and all Creations, then nothing will happen to you in reference to what I am about to write, but you will prove your point and thus shut me up.
If you are wrong and Yahweh is the proper name that 'God' prefers to be called by this is what will happen to you: You will experience a sickness unlike any other sickness that you have ever experienced in your life. Nothing you do will be able to cure it, but through this challege, the point being proven that Yahweh is God you must profess that Yahweh is the name that The Divine Architect, the Creator of all things prefers to be called by. If you do not confess/acknowledge God as Yahweh in the least in private and not in public for the reason of great shame, you will die. If you acknowledge 'God' to be Yahweh, then renege, you will die seven days from the day of that occurrence.
If you, Shemsi en Tehuti, accept this challenge and remain unscathed, then not only will you prove that 'God' is not Yahweh and Yahweh is not the proper and chosen name of 'God', but you would therefore be greater than my God who has revealed Himself and His wisdom to me as Yahweh, the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Not only that, you would prove that whatever God your serve, even it it to be yourself, is greater than my God. What is your choice, Shemsi en Tehuti? Also, I extent this challenge to Jim999 and anyone else who would like to step up. It is an offer that cannot be refused, to refuse it would only prove my point that Yahweh is God and you [generally to anyone who reads this that disagrees] fear him as God.
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MuslimTruthRevealed
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Posted: Tuesday May 22nd, 2007 03:37 |
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Assalaam Alaikum
With all due respect HLF, threatening people with a name reference is quite immature.
Shall we look at the how the name Yahweh was derived, then we will see If your threats actually have some semblance of validity.
Reference: (The Secret Book of John, from Marvin Meyer's The Secret Teachings Of Jesus: Four Gnostic Gospels, p.65, pub. A.D. 1986)
Yahweh defined This gloomy ruler has three names: "The first name is Yaldabaoth. The second is Saklas (the fool). The third is Samael (god of the blind).
Yaldabaoth is Yahweh. He is the arrogant and delusional offspring of Sophia (aka. the Holy Spirit).
The early Israelites were actually polytheists and their other principle dieties were Baal/Baalzebub and Astaroth (who were later demonized of course).
Hebrew/Jewish lexicographers added vowels to YHWH, they borrowed the vowels of the powerful Egyptian and Phoenician Sun God deities. When the vowels of the Egyptian Sun God Aten were added, YHWH became Y{A}HW{E}H
HLF...I guess you will have to take this statement back ..."I do know one thing, that the Jews and the people of Kemet, one served and the other still serves a dark evil..."
Considering that 'Yahweh' derived its origin from Kemet/Egypt 
When the vowels of the Phoenician Sun God Adonai were added, YHWH became Y{A}H{O}W{A}H, which finally became "JEHOVAH" which translates "I am" and "The Eternal One" in Hebrew
HLF it seems that you may have put your foot in mouth. Believe Im NOT a fan of Shemsi in any degree, but I am a supporter of truth and correct interpretation and understanding.
Again Reference: (The Secret Book of John, from Marvin Meyer's The Secret Teachings Of Jesus: Four Gnostic Gospels, p.65, pub. A.D. 1986)
************************************************************************************
So where did Yahweh come from?
Reference: Mark S. Smith's The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel:
"The original god of Israel was El. This reconstruction may be inferred from two pieces of information. First, the name of Israel is not a Yahwistic name with the divine element of Yahweh, but an El name, with the element, *'el.
Yahweh has NOTHING to do with the God of Israel!
This fact would suggest that El was the original chief god of the group named Israel. Second, Genesis 49:24-25 presents a series of El epithets separate from the mention of Yahweh in Genesis 49:18
Gen 49:24 But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty of Jacob; the shepherd, the stone of Israel
Gen 49:25 [Even] by the God {EL} of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb
Yahweh is understood as Israel's god in distinction to El. Deuteronomy 32:8-9 casts Yahweh in the role of one of the sons of El
Deu 32:8 When the 'El-Yown {el-yone'} divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
EL divides the blessings into Nations and Inheiritance
Deu 32:9 For the Y@hovah {yeh-ho-vaw'};portion [is] his people Jacob [is] the lot of his inheritance.
HLF Yahweh is a 'Junior' Diety NOT a major deity of worship
This passage presents an order in which each deity received its own nation
It also suggests that Yahweh, originally a warrior-god from Sinai/Paran/Edom/Teiman, was known separately from El at an early point in early Israel
Hebrew/Habiru/Apiru "Slaves" honored a warrior god, not a god of mercy and compassion, that is El. El was probably still honored, but he took a backseat to warrior gods like Baal (Baal Hadad), Ninurta, Reshep, Sopdu, Mekal and Yahweh
Reference: http://www.homestead.com/bibleorigins*net/Hebrewhabiruslaves.html
**************************************************************************
Scholars have noted that Yahweh appears to be a storm god like Baal
Scholars have noted the observance of the New Moon and Full Moon in the Israelite Cult
The Sabbath or Hebrew Shappatu has been suggested as derived in part from Moon worship, Haran/Harran being a center of worship of the Moon god, Su'en or Sin
Yahweh is not "just" a Storm God, he is also assimilating Moon and Solar/Sun forms of worship as well
Israelites never abandoned the worship of Yahweh. They simply added the worship of Ba'al to their worship of Yahweh (called syncretism)
Worship of Ba'al was carried out in terms of imitative magic whereby sexual acts by both male and female temple prostitutes were understood to arouse Ba'al who then brought rain to make Mother Earth fertile
Reference: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02175a.htm
HLF, again Im NOT here to take one side or the other, and again Shemsi is NO FRIEND of mine.
But again lets keep it civil and factual, without emotional sentiment, thus we all learn.
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jaziasha
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Posted: Tuesday May 22nd, 2007 19:45 |
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Just a few things.
MuslimTruthRevealed wrote: Hebrew/Jewish lexicographers added vowels to YHWH, they borrowed the vowels of the powerful Egyptian and Phoenician Sun God deities. When the vowels of the Egyptian Sun God Aten were added, YHWH became Y{A}HW{E}H
Listen to how this sounds and how can this be believable. They took a Hebrew word and added the vowels from an Egyptian word to make a Hebrew word...HUH. Why couldn't they have taken vowels from any word. It had to be from the powerul Egyptian and Phoenician Sun god...Kind of suspect don't you think.
When the vowels of the Phoenician Sun God Adonai were added, YHWH became Y{A}H{O}W{A}H, which finally became "JEHOVAH" which translates "I am" and "The Eternal One" in Hebrew
Again why do they have to make it seem like they are using the vowels of another god as if to say that Yahweh is a combination of sorts. Then they take Hebrew letters and add the sun god vowels to it and make an English word that makes this socalled Hebrew translation... Does this not sound funny to you?
This passage presents an order in which each deity received its own nation
It also suggests that Yahweh, originally a warrior-god from Sinai/Paran/Edom/Teiman, was known separately from El at an early point in early Israel
Unlike many whenever I hear the word "suggests" I almost always know that this is an opinion and not facts. As this is.
We can go back and forth with quotes from different books but there is no reason for that, I will concede that books written about the subject will differ. Some just make more sense than others. I believe the creators name is Yahweh but then that MY belief.
I also agree with Thoth, he may not see the correlation between Yahweh and the Harmony and Balance in the Universe but I do.
Shalom.
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Truthrevealed
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Posted: Tuesday May 22nd, 2007 20:07 |
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"Listen to how this sounds and how can this be believable. They took a Hebrew word and added the vowels from an Egyptian word to make a Hebrew word...HUH. Why couldn't they have taken vowels from any word. It had to be from the powerul Egyptian and Phoenician Sun god...Kind of suspect don't you think."
Hebrew is Egyptian in origin!!!!
Its phonetic sounds can be directly correalated languages of the time.
Habiru or Apiru was the name given by various Sumerian, Egyptian, Akkadian, Hittite, Mitanni, and Ugaritic sources (dated, roughly, from before 2000 BC to around 1200 BC) to a group of people living in the areas of Northeastern Mesopotamia and the Fertile Crescent from the borders of Egypt in Canaan to Iran. Depending on the source and epoch, these Habiru are variously described as nomadic or semi-nomadic, rebellious, outlaws, raiders, mercenaries, servants or slaves, migrant laborers, etc..
The names Habiru and Apiru are used in Akkadian cuneiform texts. The corresponding name in the consonant-only Egyptian script appears to be `PR.W, conventionally pronounced Apiru (W being the Egyptian plural suffix); {An example of how to see this word in Egy. is: prU = pr, pr, pr // Both are examples of the plural. pr is also pictured with the "walking feet", and with "pr" for house, and "r" combined}. In Mesopotamian records they are also identified by the Sumerian logogram SA.GAZ, of unknown pronunciation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habiru
Im NOT sure what your point is, but its common historical knowledge and factual that the ORIGIN of the term 'Yahweh' and those who call themselves 'Hebrews' is of Kemtian origin. i.e. Egypt
Here this may assist you: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Habiru+Apiru&as_q=egyptian+language&btnG=Search%C2%A0within%C2%A0results
Last edited on Tuesday May 22nd, 2007 20:14 by Truthrevealed
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jaziasha
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Posted: Tuesday May 22nd, 2007 20:33 |
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Truthrevealed wrote: Habiru or Apiru was the name given by various Sumerian, Egyptian, Akkadian, Hittite, Mitanni, and Ugaritic sources (dated, roughly, from before 2000 BC to around 1200 BC) to a group of people living in the areas of Northeastern Mesopotamia and the Fertile Crescent from the borders of Egypt in Canaan to Iran. Depending on the source and epoch, these Habiru are variously described as nomadic or semi-nomadic, rebellious, outlaws, raiders, mercenaries, servants or slaves, migrant laborers, etc..
The names Habiru and Apiru are used in Akkadian cuneiform texts. The corresponding name in the consonant-only Egyptian script appears to be `PR.W, conventionally pronounced Apiru (W being the Egyptian plural suffix); {An example of how to see this word in Egy. is: prU = pr, pr, pr // Both are examples of the plural. pr is also pictured with the "walking feet", and with "pr" for house, and "r" combined}. In Mesopotamian records they are also identified by the Sumerian logogram SA.GAZ, of unknown pronunciation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habiru
Im NOT sure what your point is, but its common historical knowledge and factual that the ORIGIN of the term 'Yahweh' and those who call themselves 'Hebrews' is of Kemtian origin. i.e. Egypt
The point that I was trying to make was that because someone writes it doesn't make it true. Some poeple write things for different reasons and many have their own agenda. Some of the quotes that you had were not good quotes, they contradicted themselves. That's all.
Where are these facts? What you stated above isn't proof of anything? It merely say that the Hebrew or Habiru were written about in Egyptian history during this time frame and in many other cultures. Why then aren't any of them (Those other Cultures) credited with originating the term Yahweh or the Hebrews????.
Brother, I am here to be learned but this is not fact at all merely opinion.
Shalom.
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Truthrevealed
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Posted: Tuesday May 22nd, 2007 21:15 |
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Obviously you did NOT S-T-U-D-Y what I posted. You obviously 'read' what I posted but you allowed your emotional sentiment and attachment to a word to cloud your rational intellect.
Please re-read and STUDY what I posted, I answered all of your questions and doubts.
Example:
"It merely say that the Hebrew or Habiru were written about in Egyptian history during this time frame and in many other cultures"
Im not sure where you got this impression from my post clearly mentioned various cultures reference to the origin of 'Hebrews'.
"Why then aren't any of them (Those other Cultures) credited with originating the term Yahweh or the Hebrews????"
Again my post clearly mentions the various cultures who made reference to Yahweh and Hebrews.
"Habiru or Apiru was the name given by various Sumerian, Egyptian, Akkadian, Hittite, Mitanni, and Ugaritic sources (dated, roughly, from before 2000 BC to around 1200 BC) to a group of people living in the areas of Northeastern Mesopotamia and the Fertile Crescent from the borders of Egypt in Canaan to Iran."
Last edited on Tuesday May 22nd, 2007 21:16 by Truthrevealed
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jaziasha
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Posted: Tuesday May 22nd, 2007 21:36 |
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Truthrevealed wrote: Obviously you did NOT S-T-U-D-Y what I posted. You obviously 'read' what I posted but you allowed your emotional sentiment and attachment to a word to cloud your rational intellect.
I did study your post and I came to the same conclusion. And emotional I am not my attacthment is not to a word but to the truth.
Example:
"It merely say that the Hebrew or Habiru were written about in Egyptian history during this time frame and in many other cultures"
Im not sure where you got this impression from my post clearly mentioned various cultures reference to the origin of 'Hebrews'.
No your post mention other cultures that had made references to the Hebrews Or Habiru in the written history but you clearly stated that the word or term Yahweh and the Hebrews origins were Kemetian. And I quote.
Truthrevealed wrote: Im NOT sure what your point is, but its common historical knowledge and factual that the ORIGIN of the term 'Yahweh' and those who call themselves 'Hebrews' is of Kemtian origin. i.e. Egypt
So you obviously did not study your own post and your own words tell the tale.
Shalom.
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MuslimTruthRevealed
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Posted: Thursday May 24th, 2007 00:36 |
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"Habiru or Apiru was the name given by various Sumerian, Egyptian, Akkadian, Hittite, Mitanni, and Ugaritic sources (dated, roughly, from before 2000 BC to around 1200 BC) to a group of people living in the areas of Northeastern Mesopotamia and the Fertile Crescent from the borders of Egypt in Canaan to Iran."
Hebrew/Jewish lexicographers added vowels to YHWH, they borrowed the vowels of the powerful Egyptian and Phoenician Sun God deities. When the vowels of the Egyptian Sun God Aten were added, YHWH became Y{A}HW{E}H
i.e. Kemetian, Nubian are used synonymously with Egyptian
Is that clear now?
Kemetian was MY choice of reference, I could just as well chosen Nubian or Egyptian.
The distinction between the references is ANOTHER story all together.
Last edited on Thursday May 24th, 2007 00:38 by MuslimTruthRevealed
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