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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Tuesday July 25th, 2006 17:57 |
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Now, I am not doing this to agree necessarily with UrbanOrder, because I could present similar hard facts about the origins of Christianity (which I have before) and I will get nothing but the sound of crickets. However, from the Kemetic perspective, "Allah" in my opinion indeed is just another example of how Semites and Indo-Europeans borrowed and distorted everything semi-civilized that they know from Africans. Then we have Africans who want to follow their religions when they were not even the progenitors of this knowledge. Anyhow, let's get to my "re-assertion"...
In the Arabic language, the words "Al" and "El" simply mean "The". And if I am correct, even non-Muslim Arabs call God "Elah" or basically a variant of "Allah". Moon worship of pre-Islamic Arabs along with their lunar calendar and such is not even to debate, for it is already an established fact. However, where exactly does "Allah", or "Al" + "ah" come from?
In the Kemetic language Mtw Ntr (Metu Neter), the specific word for moon was "ah". Depending on the context, it also denoted the divine aspect of God in the moon, or the moon neter. Looking at it from the erroneous Semitic or Indo-European perspective, it would be called the "Moon god" of Kemet.
An Egyptian Hieroglyphic Dictionary, Vol. I, E.A. Wallis Budge, pg. 75
Therefore, the Arabic/Islamic denotations of god "Elah" or "Allah" simply mean "The Moon God" in a direct transliteration. So my African Christian and Muslim brethren & sistren, please stop arguing over this stupidness. Both of your religions are second-hand distorted renditions of African (Kemetic) spirituality.
Last edited on Thursday August 3rd, 2006 16:50 by Shemsi en Tehuti
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urbanorder
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Posted: Tuesday July 25th, 2006 19:33 |
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Thank you.... so you are an intelligent brother you clearly did your research instead of just going into defensive mode and speaking whamma jamma.... the christian faith welcomes you with open arms we want you to be saved brother.
This is not a African, Eurpean, Asian or The America's or even Oceanic thing the big picture is religion. Countries within these mentioned continents worshipped pagan God's. Then Came Jesus where God said "There shall be no other God's before me" now that sounds quite simple to me. Selah.
Last edited on Tuesday July 25th, 2006 19:36 by urbanorder
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Tuesday July 25th, 2006 19:57 |
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urbanorder wrote: Thank you.... so you are an intelligent brother you clearly did your research instead of just going into defensive mode and speaking whamma jamma.... the christian faith welcomes you with open arms we want you to be saved brother.
This is not a African, Eurpean, Asian or The America's or even Oceanic thing the big picture is religion. Countries within these mentioned continents worshipped pagan God's. Then Came Jesus where God said "There shall be no other God's before me" now that sounds quite simple to me. Selah.
To be honest UrbanOrder, I didn't need to go and do any research. I already knew this information, but was merely entertained at Christians and Muslims attacking each others religion about who's religion is more valid. It's quite silly considering they are both borrowed from another source that both factions avoid discussion like it is the plague.
By the way, (doing my HatHeruHotep voice) you can keep your cracker god! I never see you saying anything of substance in a thread like this...
http://www.blackchat.co.uk/theblackforum/view_topic.php?id=21985&forum_id=26
Last edited on Tuesday July 25th, 2006 19:57 by Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Tuesday July 25th, 2006 20:36 |
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Many Christian college students have encountered criticisms of Christianity based on claims that early Christianity and the New Testament borrowed important beliefs and practices from a number of pagan mystery religions. Since these claims undermine such central Christian doctrines as Christ's death and resurrection, the charges are serious. But the evidence for such claims, when it even exists, often lies in sources several centuries older than the New Testament. Moreover, the alleged parallels often result from liberal scholars uncritically describing pagan beliefs and practices in Christian language and then marveling at the striking parallels they think they've discovered.
During the first half of the twentieth century, a number of liberal authors and professors claimed that the New Testament teaching about Jesus' death and resurrection, the New Birth, and the Christian practices of baptism and the Lord's Supper were derived from the pagan mystery religions. Of major concern in all this is the charge that the New Testament doctrine of salvation parallels themes commonly found in the mystery religions: a savior-god dies violently for those he will eventually deliver, after which that god is restored to life.
WHAT WERE THE MYSTERY RELIGIONS?
Other than Judaism and Christianity, the mystery religions were the most influential religions in the early centuries after Christ. The reason these cults were called "mystery religions" is that they involved secret ceremonies known only to those initiated into the cult. The major benefit of these practices was thought to be some kind of salvation.
The mystery religions were not, of course, the only manifestations of the religious spirit in the eastern Roman Empire. One could also find public cults not requiring an initiation ceremony into secret beliefs and practices. The Greek Olympian religion and its Roman counterpart are examples of this type of religion.
Each Mediterranean region produced its own mystery religion. Out of Greece came the cults of Demeter and Dionysus, as well as the Eleusinian and Orphic mystery religions, which developed later.[2] Asia Minor gave birth to the cult of Cybele, the Great Mother, and her beloved, a shepherd named Attis. The cult of Isis and Osiris (later changed to Serapis) originated in Egypt, while Syria and Palestine saw the rise of the cult of Adonis. Finally, Persia (Iran) was a leading early locale for the cult of Mithras, which -- due to its frequent use of the imagery of war -- held a special appeal to Roman soldiers. The earlier Greek mystery religions were state religions in the sense that they attained the status of a public or civil cult and served a national or public function. The later non-Greek mysteries were personal, private, and individualistic.
Basic Traits
One must avoid any suggestion that there was one common mystery religion. While a tendency toward eclecticism or synthesis developed after A.D. 300, each of the mystery cults was a separate and distinct religion during the century that saw the birth of the Christian church. Moreover, each mystery cult assumed different forms in different cultural settings and underwent significant changes, especially after A.D. 100. Nevertheless, the mystery religions exhibited five common traits.
(1) Central to each mystery was its use of an annual vegetation cycle in which life is renewed each spring and dies each fall. Followers of the mystery cults found deep symbolic significance in the natural processes of growth, death, decay, and rebirth.
(2) As noted above, each cult made important use of secret ceremonies or mysteries, often in connection with an initiation rite. Each mystery religion also passed on a "secret" to the initiate that included information about the life of the cult's god or goddess and how humans might achieve unity with that deity. This "knowledge" was always a secret or esoteric knowledge, unattainable by any outside the circle of the cult.
(3) Each mystery also centered around a myth in which the deity either returned to life after death or else triumphed over his enemies. Implicit in the myth was the theme of redemption from everything earthly and temporal. The secret meaning of the cult and its accompanying myth was expressed in a "sacramental drama" that appealed largely to the feelings and emotions of the initiates. This religious ecstasy was supposed to lead them to think they were experiencing the beginning of a new life.
(4) The mysteries had little or no use for doctrine and correct belief. They were primarily concerned with the emotional life of their followers. The cults used many different means to affect the emotions and imaginations of initiates and hence bring about "union with the god": processions, fasting, a play, acts of purification, blazing lights, and esoteric liturgies. This lack of any emphasis on correct belief marked an important difference between the mysteries and Christianity. The Christian faith was exclusivistic in the sense that it recognized only one legitimate path to God and salvation, Jesus Christ. The mysteries were inclusivistic in the sense that nothing prevented a believer in one cult from following other mysteries.
(5) The immediate goal of the initiates was a mystical experience that led them to feel they had achieved union with their god. Beyond this quest for mystical union were two more ultimate goals: some kind of redemption or salvation, and immortality.
Evolution
Before A.D. 100, the mystery religions were still largely confined to specific localities and were still a relatively novel phenomenon. After A.D. 100, they gradually began to attain a widespread popular influence throughout the Roman Empire. But they also underwent significant changes that often resulted from the various cults absorbing elements from each other. As devotees of the mysteries became increasingly eclectic in their beliefs and practices, new and odd combinations of the older mysteries began to emerge. And as the cults continued to tone down the more objectionable features of their older practices, they began to attract greater numbers of followers.
RECONSTRUCTING THE MYSTERIES
It is not until we come to the third century A.D. that we find sufficient source material (i.e., information about the mystery religions from the writings of the time) to permit a relatively complete reconstruction of their content. Far too many writers use this late source material (after A.D. 200) to form reconstructions of the third-century mystery experience and then uncritically reason back to what they think must have been the earlier nature of the cults. This practice is exceptionally bad scholarship and should not be allowed to stand without challenge. Information about a cult that comes several hundred years after the close of the New Testament canon must not be read back into what is presumed to be the status of the cult during the first century A.D. The crucial question is not what possible influence the mysteries may have had on segments of Christendom after A.D. 400, but what effect the emerging mysteries may have had on the New Testament in the first century.
The Cult of Isis and Osiris
The cult of Isis originated in Egypt and went through two major stages. In its older Egyptian version, which was not a mystery religion, Isis was regarded as the goddess of heaven, earth, the sea, and the unseen world below. In this earlier stage, Isis had a husband named Osiris. The cult of Isis became a mystery religion only after Ptolemy the First introduced major changes, sometime after 300 B.C. In the later stage, a new god named Serapis became Isis's consort. Ptolemy introduced these changes in order to synthesize Egyptian and Greek concerns in his kingdom, thus hastening the Hellenization of Egypt.
From Egypt, the cult of Isis gradually made its way to Rome. While Rome was at first repelled by the cult, the religion finally entered the city during the reign of Caligula (A.D. 37-41). Its influence spread gradually during the next two centuries, and in some locales it became a major rival of Christianity. The cult's success in the Roman Empire seems to have resulted from its impressive ritual and the hope of immortality offered to its followers.
The basic myth of the Isis cult concerned Osiris, her husband during the earlier Egyptian and nonmystery stage of the religion. According to the most common version of the myth, Osiris was murdered by his brother who then sank the coffin containing Osiris's body into the Nile river. Isis discovered the body and returned it to Egypt. But her brother-in-law once again gained access to the body, this time dismembering it into fourteen pieces which he scattered widely. Following a long search, Isis recovered each part of the body. It is at this point that the language used to describe what followed is crucial. Sometimes those telling the story are satisfied to say that Osiris came back to life, even though such language claims far more than the myth allows. Some writers go even further and refer to the alleged "resurrection" of Osiris. One liberal scholar illustrates how biased some writers are when they describe the pagan myth in Christian language: "The dead body of Osiris floated in the Nile and he returned to life, this being accomplished by a baptism in the waters of the Nile."[3]
This biased and sloppy use of language suggests three misleading analogies between Osiris and Christ: (1) a savior god dies and (2) then experiences a resurrection accompanied by (3) water baptism. But the alleged similarities, as well as the language used to describe them, turn out to be fabrications of the modern scholar and are not part of the original myth. Comparisons between the resurrection of Jesus and the resuscitation of Osiris are greatly exaggerated.[4] Not every version of the myth has Osiris returning to life; in some he simply becomes king of the underworld. Equally far-fetched are attempts to find an analogue of Christian baptism in the Osiris myth.[5] The fate of Osiris's coffin in the Nile is as relevant to baptism as the sinking of Atlantis.
As previously noted, during its later mystery stage, the male deity of the Isis cult is no longer the dying Osiris but Serapis. Serapis is often portrayed as a sun god, and it is clear that he was not a dying god. Obviously then, neither could he be a rising god. Thus, it is worth remembering that the post-Ptolemaic mystery version of the Isis cult that was in circulation from about 300 B.C. through the early centuries of the Christian era had absolutely nothing that could resemble a dying and rising savior-god.
The Cult of Cybele and Attis
Cybele, also known as the Great Mother, was worshiped through much of the Hellenistic world. She undoubtedly began as a goddess of nature. Her early worship included orgiastic ceremonies in which her frenzied male worshipers were led to castrate themselves, following which they became "Galli" or eunuch-priests of the goddess. Cybele eventually came to be viewed as the Mother of all gods and the mistress of all life.
Most of our information about the cult describes its practices during its later Roman period. But the details are slim and almost all the source material is relatively late, certainly datable long after the close of the New Testament canon.
According to myth, Cybele loved a shepherd named Attis. Because Attis was unfaithful, she drove him insane. Overcome by madness, Attis castrated himself and died. This drove Cybele into great mourning, and it introduced death into the natural world. But then Cybele restored Attis to life, an event that also brought the world of nature back to life.
The presuppositions of the interpreter tend to determine the language used to describe what followed Attis's death. Many writers refer carelessly to the "resurrection of Attis." But surely this is an exaggeration. There is no mention of anything resembling a resurrection in the myth, which suggests that Cybele could only preserve Attis's dead body. Beyond this, there is mention of the body's hair continuing to grow, along with some movement of his little finger. In some versions of the myth, Attis's return to life took the form of his being changed into an evergreen tree. Since the basic idea underlying the myth was the annual vegetation cycle, any resemblance to the bodily resurrection of Christ is greatly exaggerated.
Eventually a public rehearsal of the Attis myth became an annual event in which worshipers shared in Attis's "immortality." Each spring the followers of Cybele would mourn for the dead Attis in acts of fasting and flagellation.
It was only during the later Roman celebrations (after A.D. 300) of the spring festival that anything remotely connected with a "resurrection" appears. The pine tree symbolizing Attis was cut down and then carried corpse-like into the sanctuary. Later in the prolonged festival, the tree was buried while the initiates worked themselves into a frenzy that included gashing themselves with knives. The next night, the "grave" of the tree was opened and the "resurrection of Attis" was celebrated. But the language of these late sources is highly ambiguous. In truth, no clear-cut, unambiguous reference to the supposed "resurrection" of Attis appears, even in the very late literature from the fourth century after Christ.
The Taurobolium
The best-known rite of the cult of the Great Mother was the taurobolium. It is important to note, however, that this ritual was not part of the cult in its earlier stages. It entered the religion sometime after the middle of the second century A.D.
During the ceremony, initiates stood or reclined in a pit as a bull was slaughtered on a platform above them.[6] The initiate would then be bathed in the warm blood of the dying animal. It has been alleged that the taurobolium was a source for Christian language about being washed in the blood of the lamb (Rev. 7:14) or sprinkled with the blood of Jesus (1 Pet. 1:2). It has also been cited as the source for Paul's teaching in Romans 6:1-4, where he relates Christian baptism to the Christian's identification with Christ's death and resurrection.
No notion of death and resurrection was ever part of the taurobolium, however. The best available evidence requires us to date the ritual about one hundred years after Paul wrote Romans 6:1-4. Not one existing text supports the claim that the taurobolium memorialized the death and "resurrection" of Attis. The pagan rite could not possibly have been the source for Paul's teaching in Romans 6. Only near the end of the fourth century A.D. did the ritual add the notion of rebirth. Several important scholars see a Christian influence at work in this later development.[7] It is clear, then, that the chronological development of the rite makes it impossible for it to have influenced first-century Christianity. The New Testament teaching about the shedding of blood should be viewed in the context of its Old Testament background -- the Passover and the temple sacrifice.
Mithraism
Attempts to reconstruct the beliefs and practices of Mithraism face enormous challenges because of the scanty information that has survived. Proponents of the cult explained the world in terms of two ultimate and opposing principles, one good (depicted as light) and the other evil (darkness). Human beings must choose which side they will fight for; they are trapped in the conflict between light and darkness. Mithra came to be regarded as the most powerful mediator who could help humans ward off attacks from demonic forces.[8]
The major reason why no Mithraic influence on first-century Christianity is possible is the timing: it's all wrong! The flowering of Mithraism occurred after the close of the New Testament canon, much too late for it to have influenced anything that appears in the New Testament.[9] Moreover, no monuments for the cult can be dated earlier than A.D. 90-100, and even this dating requires us to make some exceedingly generous assumptions. Chronological difficulties, then, make the possibility of a Mithraic influence on early Christianity extremely improbable. Certainly, there remains no credible evidence for such an influence.
STRIKING PARALLELS?
Enough has been said thus far to permit comment on one of the major faults of the above-mentioned liberal scholars. I refer to the frequency with which their writings evidence a careless, even sloppy use of language. One frequently encounters scholars who first use Christian terminology to describe pagan beliefs and practices, and then marvel at the striking parallels they think they have discovered. One can go a long way toward "proving" early Christian dependence on the mysteries by describing some mystery belief or practice in Christian terminology. J. Godwin does this in his book, Mystery Religions in the Ancient World, which describes the criobolium (see footnote 6) as a "blood baptism" in which the initiate is "washed in the blood of the lamb."[10] While uninformed readers might be stunned by this remarkable similarity to Christianity (see Rev. 7:14), knowledgeable readers will see such a claim as the reflection of a strong, negative bias against Christianity.
Exaggerations and oversimplifications abound in this kind of literature. One encounters overblown claims about alleged likenesses between baptism and the Lord's Supper and similar "sacraments" in certain mystery cults. Attempts to find analogies between the resurrection of Christ and the alleged "resurrections" of the mystery deities involve massive amounts of oversimplification and inattention to detail.
Pagan Rituals and the Christian Sacraments
The mere fact that Christianity has a sacred meal and a washing of the body is supposed to prove that it borrowed these ceremonies from similar meals and washings in the pagan cults. By themselves, of course, such outward similarities prove nothing. After all, religious ceremonies can assume only a limited number of forms, and they will naturally relate to important or common aspects of human life. The more important question is the meaning of the pagan practices. Ceremonial washings that antedate the New Testament have a different meaning from New Testament baptism, while pagan washings after A.D. 100 come too late to influence the New Testament and, indeed, might themselves have been influenced by Christianity.[11] Sacred meals in the pre-Christian Greek mysteries fail to prove anything since the chronology is all wrong. The Greek ceremonies that are supposed to have influenced first-century Christians had long since disappeared by the time we get to Jesus and Paul. Sacred meals in such post-Christian mysteries as Mithraism come too late.
Unlike the initiation rites of the mystery cults, Christian baptism looks back to what a real, historical person -- Jesus Christ -- did in history. Advocates of the mystery cults believed their "sacraments" had the power to give the individual the benefits of immortality in a mechanical or magical way, without his or her undergoing any moral or spiritual transformation. This certainly was not Paul's view, either of salvation or of the operation of the Christian sacraments. In contrast with pagan initiation ceremonies, Christian baptism is not a mechanical or magical ceremony. It is clear that the sources of Christian baptism are not to be found either in the taurobolium (which is post first-century anyway) or in the washings of the pagan mysteries. Its sources lie rather in the washings of purification found in the Old Testament and in the Jewish practice of baptizing proselytes, the latter being the most likely source for the baptistic practices of John the Baptist.
Of all the mystery cults, only Mithraism had anything that resembled the Lord's Supper. A piece of bread and a cup of water were placed before initiates while the priest of Mithra spoke some ceremonial words. But the late introduction of this ritual precludes its having any influence upon first-century Christianity.
Claims that the Lord's Supper was derived from pagan sacred meals are grounded in exaggerations and oversimplifications. The supposed parallels and analogies break down completely.[12] Any quest for the historical antecedents of the Lord's Supper is more likely to succeed if it stays closer to the Jewish foundations of the Christian faith than if it wanders off into the practices of the pagan cults. The Lord's Supper looked back to a real, historical person and to something He did in history. The occasion for Jesus' introduction of the Christian Lord's Supper was the Jewish Passover feast. Attempts to find pagan sources for baptism and the Lord's Supper must be judged to fail.
The Death of the Mystery Gods and the Death of Jesus
The best way to evaluate the alleged dependence of early Christian beliefs about Christ's death and resurrection on the pagan myths of a dying and rising savior-god is to examine carefully the supposed parallels. The death of Jesus differs from the deaths of the pagan gods in at least six ways:
(1) None of the so-called savior-gods died for someone else. The notion of the Son of God dying in place of His creatures is unique to Christianity.[13]
(2) Only Jesus died for sin. As Gunter Wagner observes, to none of the pagan gods "has the intention of helping men been attributed. The sort of death that they died is quite different (hunting accident, self-emasculation, etc.)."[14]
(3) Jesus died once and for all (Heb. 7:27; 9:25-28; 10:10-14). In contrast, the mystery gods were vegetation deities whose repeated deaths and resuscitations depict the annual cycle of nature.
(4) Jesus' death was an actual event in history. The death of the mystery god appears in a mythical drama with no historical ties; its continued rehearsal celebrates the recurring death and rebirth of nature. The incontestable fact that the early church believed that its proclamation of Jesus' death and resurrection was grounded in an actual historical event makes absurd any attempt to derive this belief from the mythical, nonhistorical stories of the pagan cults.[15]
(5) Unlike the mystery gods, Jesus died voluntarily. Nothing like this appears even implicitly in the mysteries.
(6) And finally, Jesus' death was not a defeat but a triumph. Christianity stands entirely apart from the pagan mysteries in that its report of Jesus' death is a message of triumph. Even as Jesus was experiencing the pain and humiliation of the cross, He was the victor. The New Testament's mood of exultation contrasts sharply with that of the mystery religions, whose followers wept and mourned for the terrible fate that overtook their gods.[16]
The Risen Christ and the "Rising Savior-Gods"
Which mystery gods actually experienced a resurrection from the dead? Certainly no early texts refer to any resurrection of Attis. Nor is the case for a resurrection of Osiris any stronger. One can speak of a "resurrection" in the stories of Osiris, Attis, and Adonis only in the most extended of senses.[17] For example, after Isis gathered together the pieces of Osiris's dismembered body, Osiris became "Lord of the Underworld." This is a poor substitute for a resurrection like that of Jesus Christ. And, no claim can be made that Mithras was a dying and rising god. The tide of scholarly opinion has turned dramatically against attempts to make early Christianity dependent on the so-called dying and rising gods of Hellenistic paganism.[18] Any unbiased examination of the evidence shows that such claims must be rejected.
Christian Rebirth and Cultic Initiation Rites
Liberal writings on the subject are full of sweeping generalizations to the effect that early Christianity borrowed its notion of rebirth from the pagan mysteries.[19] But the evidence makes it clear that there was no pre-Christian doctrine of rebirth for the Christians to borrow. There are actually very few references to the notion of rebirth in the evidence that has survived, and even these are either very late or very ambiguous. They provide no help in settling the question of the source of the New Testament use of the concept. The claim that pre-Christian mysteries regarded their initiation rites as a kind of rebirth is unsupported by any evidence contemporary with such alleged practices. Instead, a view found in much later texts is read back into earlier rites, which are then interpreted quite speculatively as dramatic portrayals of the initiate's "new birth." The belief that pre-Christian mysteries used "rebirth" as a technical term lacks support from even one single text.
Most contemporary scholars maintain that the mystery use of the concept of rebirth (testified to only in evidence dated after A.D. 300) differs so significantly from its New Testament usage that any possibility of a close link is ruled out. The most that such scholars are willing to concede is the possibility that some Christians borrowed the metaphor or imagery from the common speech of the time and recast it to fit their distinctive theological beliefs. So even if the metaphor of rebirth was Hellenistic, its content within Christianity was unique.[20]
SEVEN ARGUMENTS AGAINST CHRISTIAN DEPENDENCE ON THE MYSTERIES
I conclude by noting seven points that undermine liberal efforts to show that first-century Christianity borrowed essential beliefs and practices from the pagan mystery religions.
(1) Arguments offered to "prove" a Christian dependence on the mysteries illustrate the logical fallacy of false cause. This fallacy is committed whenever someone reasons that just because two things exist side by side, one of them must have caused the other. As we all should know, mere coincidence does not prove causal connection. Nor does similarity prove dependence.
(2) Many alleged similarities between Christianity and the mysteries are either greatly exaggerated or fabricated. Scholars often describe pagan rituals in language they borrow from Christianity. The careless use of language could lead one to speak of a "Last Supper" in Mithraism or a "baptism" in the cult of Isis. It is inexcusable nonsense to take the word "savior" with all of its New Testament connotations and apply it to Osiris or Attis as though they were savior-gods in any similar sense.
(3) The chronology is all wrong. Almost all of our sources of information about the pagan religions alleged to have influenced early Christianity are dated very late. We frequently find writers quoting from documents written 300 years later than Paul in efforts to produce ideas that allegedly influenced Paul. We must reject the assumption that just because a cult had a certain belief or practice in the third or fourth century after Christ, it therefore had the same belief or practice in the first century.
(4) Paul would never have consciously borrowed from the pagan religions. All of our information about him makes it highly unlikely that he was in any sense influenced by pagan sources. He placed great emphasis on his early training in a strict form of Judaism (Phil. 3:5). He warned the Colossians against the very sort of influence that advocates of Christian syncretism have attributed to him, namely, letting their minds be captured by alien speculations (Col. 2:8).
(5) Early Christianity was an exclusivistic faith. As J. Machen explains, the mystery cults were nonexclusive. "A man could become initiated into the mysteries of Isis or Mithras without at all giving up his former beliefs; but if he were to be received into the Church, according to the preaching of Paul, he must forsake all other Saviors for the Lord Jesus Christ....Amid the prevailing syncretism of the Greco-Roman world, the religion of Paul, with the religion of Israel, stands absolutely alone."[21] This Christian exclusivism should be a starting point for all reflection about the possible relations between Christianity and its pagan competitors. Any hint of syncretism in the New Testament would have caused immediate controversy.
(6) Unlike the mysteries, the religion of Paul was grounded on events that actually happened in history. The mysticism of the mystery cults was essentially nonhistorical. Their myths were dramas, or pictures, of what the initiate went through, not real historical events, as Paul regarded Christ's death and resurrection to be. The Christian affirmation that the death and resurrection of Christ happened to a historical person at a particular time and place has absolutely no parallel in any pagan mystery religion.
(7) What few parallels may still remain may reflect a Christian influence on the pagan systems. As Bruce Metzger has argued, "It must not be uncritically assumed that the Mysteries always influenced Christianity, for it is not only possible but probable that in certain cases, the influence moved in the opposite direction."[22] It should not be surprising that leaders of cults that were being successfully challenged by Christianity should do something to counter the challenge. What better way to do this than by offering a pagan substitute? Pagan attempts to counter the growing influence of Christianity by imitating it are clearly apparent in measures instituted by Julian the Apostate, who was the Roman emperor from A.D. 361 to 363.
A Final word especially for Shemsi en Tehuti
Liberal efforts to undermine the uniqueness of the Christian revelation via claims of a pagan religious influence collapse quickly once a full account of the information is available. It is clear that the liberal arguments exhibit astoundingly bad scholarship. Indeed, this conclusion may be too generous. According to one writer, a more accurate account of these bad arguments would describe them as "prejudiced irresponsibility."[23] But in order to become completely informed on these matters, wise readers will work through material cited in the brief bibliography.
I hope tht cleared everything up....................
Last edited on Tuesday July 25th, 2006 20:39 by urbanorder
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Posted: Tuesday July 25th, 2006 21:37 |
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| It is interesting how you can't stand on your own two feet, but have to go and pull out scores from someone else to express what you think...or should I say what you are lead (through religion) to want to think. I have time and time again laid out evidence for the Kemetic foundations of Christianity, but you don't address that. You just run and copy an entire webpage instead of holding your ground like an intelligent and dignified adult. Go ahead. Hide behind your Bible and pseudo-thinkers who only make people dumber trying to trivialize the facts.
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Posted: Tuesday July 25th, 2006 21:58 |
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| I feel I have explained myself enough through the reputable website which I used. You should be grateful that I dignified your Murdoch esq "Kemetic whamma jamma" with a reply of such substance.
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Tuesday July 25th, 2006 22:04 |
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| You did no such thing. You just did a quick Google search for something trying to refute the Kemetic line of thought in regards to popular religions. Where if you actually read that website and understood the material at hand, you would know that it only makes you look even dumber.
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Liono
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Posted: Tuesday July 25th, 2006 22:57 |
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| As you guy's say in Florida... "alrightie then and have a nice day".
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Jay Jay
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Posted: Wednesday July 26th, 2006 00:03 |
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Shemsi en Tehuti wrote: Therefore, the Arabic/Islamic denotations of god "Elah" or "Allah" simply mean "The Moon God" in a direct transliteration. So my African Christian and Muslim brethren & sistren, please stop arguing over this stupidness. Both of your religions are second-hand distorted renditions of African (Kemetic) spirituality.
If you dont hear crickets, you might just hear the wind blowing, also picture some tumbleweeds and the scene is set when a person is confronted with the origins. The response given will always be from something else as reference
after the fact.
Personally I've been to the middle-east 6 times, there is nothing muslims can tell me about arab culture and religion, I've seen all facets of the culture, I seen stuff that is forbidden in their culture done infront of me simply because they know that I am not of that culture so I am not bothered what they do, yes I've seen them eat pork, yes I've seen them drink alcohol.....but it is not true. rolleyes
I've digressed again.
When I was last over there I was just looking at the night sky, I noticed the crescent moon in the sky...it was more dominant or visable than viewing in the UK, then I noticed the architecture, the building structures have some sort of link to this curved form, even down to the swords with its crescent like curves. They sure do like the curved moon form.
LOL it cracks me up, it's like when they put crescent moons above the mosques to help people convert to islam, they recognized something familar beforehand and conversion was made easier for them. It is no differant to when St. Patrick converted the Irish Celts by showing the trinty in the 3 leaves of a a shamrock for an easy transition. Same sh*t different smell.
cue wind
Last edited on Wednesday July 26th, 2006 00:21 by Jay Jay
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Jay Jay
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Posted: Wednesday July 26th, 2006 00:19 |
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urbanorder wrote: I feel I have explained myself enough through the reputable website which I used. You should be grateful that I dignified your Murdoch esq "Kemetic whamma jamma" with a reply of such substance."
Whamma jamma........LOL
Sorry Shemsi for butting in......
urbanorder, if I'm correct statements like "who is your God?" and
worshiping these demon God's through witch doctors or equivalent may put your soul at risk. is pure whamma jamma and straight out of the dark ages circa 500-1000CE only you dont see it.
http://www.blackchat.co.uk/theblackforum/forum26/22910.html
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Wednesday July 26th, 2006 18:53 |
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| You can butt in anytime Jay Jay. I just want there to be honest dialog, that's all. UrbanOrder doesn't really want that unless he is prosletyzing and bashing someone elses faith.
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urbanorder
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Posted: Wednesday July 26th, 2006 19:55 |
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| I don't bash anyone's religion I just research it and then offer people the truth in which they can make up their own minds up. Just as the people who share your consious reality of kemetic theory at your local metal asylum, you know they really shouldn't have an internet connection there.
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HatHaruhotep
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Posted: Wednesday July 26th, 2006 22:31 |
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Even if it is founded on moon worship, what difference does it make? It is never a good strategy to disect beliefs, because beliefs do not require any sort of proof and still stand up in the face of indisputable evidence.
As a people who have had every sort of "religion" forced upon us, our concern is only with the actions of the various religionists and how they impact our race.
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HatHaruhotep
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Posted: Wednesday July 26th, 2006 22:35 |
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urbanorder wrote: Thank you.... so you are an intelligent brother you clearly did your research instead of just going into defensive mode and speaking whamma jamma.... the christian faith welcomes you with open arms we want you to be saved brother.
Saved? Are you saying that the ONLY way to have a relationship with God is through crackers and the book that THEY wrote? You can't have any connection with God or enjoy Her Protection unless you go through whitey, eh? THIS IS WHY BLACK PEOPLE ARE DOWNTRODDEN IN EVERY CORNER OF THE EARTH. WORSHIPPING WHITE PEOPLE AND THEIR SUPREMACIST MENTALITY.
If you take away the crackers, you have NO religion at all. They are the ones who taught you about that effiminate white "jesus". So I guess slavery was worth it, huh? At least you got to be "saved".
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East_African
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Posted: Wednesday July 26th, 2006 23:10 |
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Personally I've been to the middle-east 6 times, there is nothing muslims can tell me about arab culture and religion, I've seen all facets of the culture, I seen stuff that is forbidden in their culture done infront of me simply because they know that I am not of that culture so I am not bothered what they do, yes I've seen them eat pork, yes I've seen them drink alcohol.....but it is not true. rolleyes
no one said the middle east is perfect or even muslims for that matter infact today most muslims despise the middle east.I have seen muslim people drink alcohol too, i know muslim drug dealers and i know all about arabs hiding their drinks in coca cola cans.No one can deny these things happen, after all muslims are human too(or maybe not according to some people here).
I was gonna reply to some of the assertations made here and on other threads,but there's too many people to take on plus i don't wanna stay up writing replies,got to dash to get back too moon worshipping.
Last edited on Wednesday July 26th, 2006 23:26 by East_African
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Mamoulian
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Posted: Thursday July 27th, 2006 00:00 |
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Salaam Alaikum.
Allah does not care for human opinion.
When the earth is pulled over your eyes and your mouth is shut forever will you still disbelieve?
Let the vain strive against the inevitable. Theirs is a LOST CAUSE!
Not only will this Earth die, but all the stars and galaxies beyond it. Goodbye and good riddance to the ARROGANT............
Last edited on Thursday July 27th, 2006 09:24 by Mamoulian
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Thursday July 27th, 2006 12:31 |
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@ Mamoulian
Your a tool.
@ East_African
I am not saying that Muslims worship the moon. It is an established fact that Pre-Islamic Arabs worshiped the moon. I am only demonstrating where it all got started.
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East_African
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Posted: Thursday July 27th, 2006 14:07 |
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@ East_African
I am not saying that Muslims worship the moon. It is an established fact that Pre-Islamic Arabs worshiped the moon. I am only demonstrating where it all got started.
Everyone knows pre islamic arabs worshipped the moon besides other things.Hence why they tried to kill muhammad saw because he challenged their culture and also destroyed some of their idols.Most of the arabs didn't even know what a prophet was.It was due to some jews in medina who said they where expecting a prophet, then some arabs in medina decided to find out what he had to say for themselves.Even when Muhammads own tribe the quriash where fighting against him and his followers, it was the jews at first that he made an alliance with to fight his enemies.I don't have a problem with like yourself saying where the moon worshipping originated and whatnot, but people who are claiming that islam is based on moon worshipping are clearly misleading people, otherwise muhammads followers would not have fled all the way to east africa in christian territory to practice freely their newly founded religion,if they where simply reafirming the previous gods of the arabs.In fact if the negus of abbsynia would not have granted sanctuary to the first few muslims, the arabs would have killed them and probably islam with it.
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Thursday July 27th, 2006 19:34 |
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East_African wrote:
Everyone knows pre islamic arabs worshipped the moon besides other things.Hence why they tried to kill muhammad saw because he challenged their culture and also destroyed some of their idols.Most of the arabs didn't even know what a prophet was.It was due to some jews in medina who said they where expecting a prophet, then some arabs in medina decided to find out what he had to say for themselves.Even when Muhammads own tribe the quriash where fighting against him and his followers, it was the jews at first that he made an alliance with to fight his enemies.I don't have a problem with like yourself saying where the moon worshipping originated and whatnot, but people who are claiming that islam is based on moon worshipping are clearly misleading people, otherwise muhammads followers would not have fled all the way to east africa in christian territory to practice freely their newly founded religion,if they where simply reafirming the previous gods of the arabs.In fact if the negus of abbsynia would not have granted sanctuary to the first few muslims, the arabs would have killed them and probably islam with it.
Your point is well taken.
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urbanorder
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Posted: Thursday July 27th, 2006 20:00 |
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This fact answers the questions, "Why is Allah never defined in the Qur'an? Why did Muhammad assume that the pagan Arabs already knew who Allah was?" Muhammad was raised in the religion of the Moon-god Allah. But he went one step further than his fellow pagan Arabs. While they believed that Allah, i.e. the Moon-god, was the greatest of all gods and the supreme deity in a pantheon of deities, Muhammad decided that Allah was not only the greatest god but the only god.
In effect he said, "Look, you already believe that the Moon-god Allah is the greatest of all gods. All I want you to do is to accept that the idea that he is the only god. I am not taking away the Allah you already worship. I am only taking away his wife and his daughters and all the other gods." This is seen from the fact that the first point of the Muslim creed is not, "Allah is great" but "Allah is the greatest," i.e., he is the greatest among the gods. Why would Muhammad say that Allah is the "greatest" except in a polytheistic context? The Arabic word is used to contrast the greater from the lesser. That this is true is seen from the fact that the pagan Arabs never accused Muhammad of preaching a different Allah than the one they already worshipped. This "Allah" was the Moon-god according to the archeological evidence. Muhammad thus attempted to have it both ways. To the pagans, he said that he still believed in the Moon-god Allah. To the Jews and the Christians, he said that Allah was their God too. But both the Jews and the Christians knew better and that is why they rejected his god Allah as a false god.
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Mamoulian
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Posted: Friday July 28th, 2006 00:20 |
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Shemsi en Tehuti wrote: @ Mamoulian
Your a tool.
Salaam Alaikum.
Almost. I am a servant brother.... a servant of Allah.
Who can claim not to serve Allah who exists beyond time and space? Can any living thing detach itself from the world?
Watch the sun set tomorrow brother and observe it merging with the horizon. Even though we know 93 million miles separate the sun and horizon we cannot experience this with our vision. To us they seem to come together.
Now visit a churchyard and try to see the dead as they were in life...... you cannot do it. There are boundaries all about us but Allah is not constrained by them.
The Folding Up
(At-Takvir:81; The Al-Qur'an)
When the Sun is extinguished,
And the stars dead and scattered,
The mountains made to move....
...When the oceans surge and swell,
The dead are reunited with their souls,
And the little girl buried alive is asked:
For what crime was she put to death?
When the ledgers are laid open,
the veil drawn back from the world,
Hell is set ablaze,
Paradise bought near,
Then every soul will know what it had prepared for itself.
I call to witness the vanishing stars,
The planets withdrawing into themselves,
The closing night; the rising dawn,
That this is indeed the word of an honoured messanger...
... This is a reminder to all humanity,
For those who desire to do right,
That you cannot desire except by Allah's will,
The Lord of all the Worlds.
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Jay Jay
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Posted: Friday July 28th, 2006 10:27 |
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Mamoulian wrote: Shemsi en Tehuti wrote: @ Mamoulian
Your a tool.
Salaam Alaikum.
Almost. I am a servant brother.... a servant of Allah.
Who can claim not to serve Allah who exists beyond time and space? Can any living thing detach itself from the world?
Physically no, mentally yes....everybody understands the pen is mighter than the sword, everybody understands it is always brains over brawn. The same theme is occuring here, mind over matter. It's not a question of this is your limitation so be it. Thats yester year thinking.
Watch the sun set tomorrow brother and observe it merging with the horizon. Even though we know 93 million miles separate the sun and horizon we cannot experience this with our vision. To us they seem to come together.
Again....but we know it is not together, just because this is what we see with our vision shows doesn't mean that this is our lot.
Now visit a churchyard and try to see the dead as they were in life...... you cannot do it. There are boundaries all about us but Allah is not constrained by them.
My friend goto a cemetery, the life has withdrawn from the physical body, it goes elsewhere....still there is life inside the body, little criitters will use the body as a shelter etc. Life withdraws from a yellow blade of grass which is no longer green. Life, death and rebirth occurs that grass will grow again.
You think you are limited so therefore you are.
@East African
My comments about muslims doing this thing or that thing which is forbidden by your book was irrelevant, I said so myself because I digressed, this I mentioned.
The crux of my post was to try to show that there are hand me downs from previous religions in islamic culture, namely hand me downs from moon god culture which is undeniable. Look on top of a mosque!
The point is this....muslims will point at the so called 'pagan' origins of christianity and visa versa. But both live in glasshouses which neither wishes to recognise.
In Afganistan they destroyed a rock sculpture of buddha which was more than 2000 years old because of this idol business, yet the kaba remains which was made for the moon good 'Sin', in fact hajj and eveything is based from the moon god culture yet all of this remains, All of this is pre-islamic culture strictly adhered to today.
If someone can tell me why one remains yet the other has to go.... I am all ears.
Last edited on Friday July 28th, 2006 10:45 by Jay Jay
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East_African
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Posted: Friday July 28th, 2006 15:53 |
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Jay Jay wrote:
@East African
My comments about muslims doing this thing or that thing which is forbidden by your book was irrelevant, I said so myself because I digressed, this I mentioned.
Thats the point you didn't even say muslims you said:
Personally I've been to the middle-east 6 times, there is nothing muslims can tell me about arab culture and religion, I've seen all facets of the culture, I seen stuff that is forbidden in their culture done infront of me simply because they know that I am not of that culture so I am not bothered what they do, yes I've seen them eat pork, yes I've seen them drink alcohol.....but it is not true. rolleyes
Not drinking is not arabic or middle eastern culture, rather it is islamic culture.Two different things.All middle easterners are not christians,there are jews and christians, but they to see themselves as much an arab as arab muslims.I'f i use your example prior to islam "drinking" was a important aspect of arabic culture.Much of the trade was centered around alcohol, thus when the arabs got drunk they used to fight and kil amongst each other.What put a stop to this?Islam, so you see there was a conflict between arabic culture and islam.hence why the arab pagans (moon worshippers) went to war with early muslims because islam was revolutionary it tried to change the way of life of the arab.Another example,what is the cultural dress of the arab women?No it's not the veil or being covered.Before islam arabic women used to wear a a simple cloth which showed their breasts.Again islam put a stop this, the arabs resisted these changes in their culture.
The crux of my post was to try to show that there are hand me downs from previous religions in islamic culture, namely hand me downs from moon god culture which is undeniable. Look on top of a mosque!
My friend these are just symbols,just like most western nations have crosses on their flags.Did jesus use that symbol or did any of his followers recorded in the bible wear a cross?no.But this is seen a sign of christianity.Can we argure then jesus used and copied the cross from previous religions,the answer is no.Similiarly muhammad saw or any of his followers never used the moon as symbol of islam?
The early Muslim community did not really have a symbol. During the time of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), Islamic armies and caravans flew simple solid-colored flags (generally black, green, or white) for identification purposes. In later generations, the Muslim leaders continued to use a simple black, white, or green flag with no markings, writing, or symbolism on it.
It wasn't until the Ottoman Empire that the crescent moon and star became affiliated with the Muslim world. When the Turks conquered Constantinople (Istanbul) in 1453, they adopted the city's existing flag and symbol. Legend holds that the founder of the Ottoman Empire, Osman, had a dream in which the crescent moon stretched from one end of the earth to the other. Taking this as a good omen, he chose to keep the crescent and make it the symbol of his dynasty. There is speculation that the five points on the star represent the five pillars of Islam, but this is pure conjecture. The five points were not standard on the Ottoman flags, and as you will see on the following page, it is still not standard on flags used in the Muslim world today.
For hundreds of years, the Ottoman Empire ruled over the Muslim world. After centuries of battle with Christian Europe, it is understandable how the symbols of this empire became linked in people's minds with the faith of Islam as a whole.
Based on this history, many Muslims reject using the crescent moon as a symbol of Islam. The faith of Islam has historically had no symbol, and many refuse to accept what is essentially an ancient pagan icon. It is certainly not in uniform use among Muslims.
You said look at the top of the mosque, during the early period of islam all the mosques where open ended and had no roofs.So again your point is invalid because this was something which was introduced after muhammad saw, even so this is no way demonstrates a link to the previous gods.
.
In Afganistan they destroyed a rock sculpture of buddha which was more than 2000 years old because of this idol business, yet the kaba remains which was made for the moon good 'Sin', in fact hajj and eveything is based from the moon god culture yet all of this remains, All of this is pre-islamic culture strictly adhered to today.
Muslims believe that kabba was built by ishmael(descendant of muhammad) and mecca is the same place as the wilderness of paran in which hagar the egyptian is saif to have wandered.We also believe it was established as a place of worship for Allah swt.But later on the arabs started to change it and establised idols.Which is why they knew the name "Allah" but attributed it to a moon god.What Muhammad saw did was simply get rid of these "innovations" by the pagan arabs.And go back to the way of ishmael who we believe worshipped allah swt on that site.The pagan arabs changed the practices and run around naked around the kaba.Similiarly we believe that jesus was a prophet but some christians later started calling him "god".So you are wrong the hajj is not based on moon culture it is based on the actions of prophet ishmael and his sons.If this was the case, the moon worshippers would not have gone to war with Muhammad, if he was like you say basing islam on moon culture.
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East_African
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Posted: Friday July 28th, 2006 16:43 |
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urbanorder wrote:
This fact answers the questions, "Why is Allah never defined in the Qur'an? Why did Muhammad assume that the pagan Arabs already knew who Allah was?"
Firstly that doesn't constitute a fact it is merely your opinion.If you read the quran you will see that Allah is clearly defined.Here is a definition from the quran:
Quraysh, as they were the guardians of the Ka'aba. Muhammad and his followers were persecuted
Bilal was a slave owned by Umayah ibn Khalaf and/or Umayah's son Safwan ibn Umayyah of Banu Jumah, a Quraish subtribe. Among his tasks was tending herds of camels.
Bilal first heard of Muhammad when his master spoke to guests with anxiety, rage, and malice in his voice. Bilal overheard them say,
"Muhammad was never a liar, magician, or mad, but we have to describe him this way until we turn away from him those who rush to his religion."
Bilal understood his masters to have three main reasons for disliking Muhammad:
- Muhammad opposed the traditional religion of Quraish.
- They were afraid that the economic status of the Quraish would diminish if people were to stop coming to Mecca to worship the idols.
- They disliked the pride of Banu Hashim for having a prophet from their tribe.
However, when Bilal heard Muhammad preach, he decided to convert to Islam.
Bilal's master Umayah ibn Khalaf considered the acceptance of Islam by one of the Banu Jumah slaves as a shock. Umayah reportedly said, "It does not matter. Indeed the sun this day shall not set but with the Islam of this stray slave," and began to torture Bilal in order to force him to recant his new faith. Reportedly, Bilal endured various tortures, including being stripped naked and laid on hot coals, to make him renounce Islam. Bilal refused.
According to Ibn Ishaq, the 8th century biographer of the Prophet, Bilal's master reportedly, "would bring him out at the hottest part of the day and throw him on his back in the open valley and have a great rock put on his chest; then he would say to him, 'You will stay here till you die or deny Muhammad and worship al-Lat and al-Uzza" (pre-Islamic goddesses).
Other sources state that he "was made to lie down naked on the burning sand of the Arabian desert; a heavy stone was put on his chest which made breathing difficult for him. And as if it was not enough, some heavily built persons used to jump upon the stone, trying to crush him to death. Still the only sound heard from Bilal was "Ahad! Ahad! (One God! One God!)"
Bilal remained beneath the rock. By sunset they raised him up and placing a rope around his neck, took him around the mountains and streets of Makkah. Bilal kept saying, "One ... One."
This torture was repeated every day. They said Bilal could go free on the condition that he said the name of Al-Lat and Al-'Uzza. But Bilal answered, "One ... One" They said to him, "Say as we say." Bilal answered them "Indeed my tongue is not good at that."
One of them said "Tomorrow, speak well of our gods, say, 'My lord is Al-Lat and Al-'Uzza,' and we'll leave you alone." Bilal shook his head and said, "One... One." Umayah ibn Khalaf kicked him and shouted, "What bad luck has thrown you upon us, O slave of evil! By Al-Lat and Al-'Uzza, I will make you an example for slaves and masters
Why would the pagan arab go to such an extent to try to erase this new religion,if what you are saying is true?
This is seen from the fact that the first point of the Muslim creed is not, "Allah is great" but "Allah is the greatest," i.e., he is the greatest among the gods. Why would Muhammad say that Allah is the "greatest" except in a polytheistic context? The Arabic word is used to contrast the greater from the lesser. That this is true is seen from the fact that the pagan Arabs never accused Muhammad of preaching a different Allah than the one they already worshipped. This "Allah" was the Moon-god according to the archeological evidence. Muhammad thus attempted to have it both ways. To the pagans, he said that he still believed in the Moon-god Allah. To the Jews and the Christians, he said that Allah was their God too. But both the Jews and the Christians knew better and that is why they rejected his god Allah as a false god.
Once aain you are clearly misleading people.The first creed of the muslism creed is Ash-hadu allÄ? ilÄ?ha illallÄ?h,meaning that there is no diety or god expect allah.If this was polththeistic he would have said "there are no dieties.....".As to your second point about the pagan arabs not charging muhammad saw with not charging muhammad saw with worhsipping a different Allah, this is a blatant denial of history.As i documented above the pagan arabs tortured and tried to kill the muslims because they where following a completely different religion.Leading them to flee to medina(jewish stronghold) and christian ethiopia.If what you are saying is true then why would the flee from the pagan arabs and live amongst the jews and christians?During the early period muslims used to pray towards jerusalem, not the moon worship center mecca.
As to your last point about the jews and christians rejecting muhammad.That does not really mean anythign because rejection does not neccasarily equal false propehthood.If we use this logic then jesus was also a false prophet because the jews rejected him too?This is clearly not acceptable to any christian or muslims.But seeing as you have gone along this line,i'll tell you little something about the first muslims:
The first revelations
Muhammad had a reflective turn of mind and routinely spent nights in a cave (Hira) near Mecca in meditation and thought. Muslims believe that around the year 610, while meditating, Muhammad was visited by the Angel Gabriel.
His wife Khadijah and her Christian cousin Waraqah ibn Nawfal were the first to believe that Muhammad was a prophet.
Waraqah ibn Nawfal
According to the sira, the traditional Muslim biographies of Muhammad, which speaks highly of Waraqah, Waraqah was a pious monk who recognized the signs of prophethood soon after Muhammad received his revelation. Some Muslims regard this as a specific fulfillment of Isaiah 29:11-18
Narrated 'Aisha(R): Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3
Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, "Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!" Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" Allah's Apostle described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, "This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Apostle asked, "Will they drive me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, "Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died.
furthermore:
[size=Islam: from Makka to Abyssinia]
When Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.) started inviting the people of Makka to Islam in the year 610 AD, the pagan Quraish unleashed their fury by torturing and persecuting those who had accepted the religion of Islam. Life became unbearable for Muslims. They asked permission to immigrate to Abyssinia. Before giving them the go-ahead, the Prophet first sent three emissaries on a reconnaissance mission to determine the possibility of his companions being welcomed if they sought asylum in Abyssinia. The emissaries were consist of a businessman, spokesman and a guide, who spent two to three months on this fact-finding mission[4][size=.]After getting the clearance and assurance, the Prophet then allowed his companions to immigrate, informing them that Habasha (Abyssinia) was a Christian kingdom where[size=]“a king rules without injustice, a land of truthfulness – until Almighty God leads us to a way out of our difficulty�[5].
[size=Immigration to Ethiopia:]
[size= ]
The first group of twelve men and four women including Sayyidna Uthman bin Afaan and his wife Ruqaya (the daughter of the Prophet Mohammad) ), Zubyr ibn Awaam, Abdulrahman ibn Awf, Uthman ibn Mat-uwn and Musab ibn Omyri left for
Very soon the immigrants settled down in the new land under the care and protection of Negus, the just and the righteous ruler of Abyssinia. They started, for the first time since they became Muslims, to savour the test of freedom and security and enjoyed the sweetness of worshiping undisturbed.
In Makka, this immigration started a great hue and cry for two good reasons. Firstly, there was hardly any family of the Quraish, which did not loose a son, son-in-law, a daughter, a brother or a sister. Secondly, the Quraish realized that the emigration of this elite group will definitely have a strong impact in Abyssinia and their message shall attract new converts among the Abyssinians and beyond, and this will be a threat to their own sovereignty. Hence the Quiraish sent two emissaries, Amru ibn Aby al Aas and Abdalla ibn Aby Taby'ah to the Negus of Abyssinia to persuade him to reject the Muslim immigrants as outlaws. They came with some precious gifts to the Negus and for the courtiers of the Negus. To confound the accusations the leader of the Muslim delegation, Jaafar bin Aby Talib, recited to the Negus the verse of the Koran which speak of Mary (19:16-24)[10]. This recitation convinced the Abyssinians that the Muslims had received a revelation akin to their own. The Negus then returned the gifts to the two emissaries, saying, " I don’t accept bribes"[11]. He then addressed the immigrants: " You are Welcome in my country, and you can stay here in peace."[12].
With this political asylum at the Aksumu court, and the royal protection, the Muslim immigrants were able for the first time to practice their religion with full freedom and actively involved in da'awah. They were using their expertise in business and trade in enhancing the Islamic image, as most of them were professional merchants who had trade links with Abyssinia years before the advent of Islam.[13]
Seeing this rapid growth of Islam in his kingdom, the Negus dispatched a delegation of seventy priests to Makka to meet Prophet Muhammad and to find out more about Islam.[14]. This was the first foreign delegation to visit Prophet Muhammad. The Prophet recited to them " Yasin, By the Koran, full of wisdom (36:1-2) until he completed the whole chapter to the end. They listened attentively and wept. They then embraced Islam[15]. The Quraish were disturbed with this development and tried to discourage them from accepting Islam, but their efforts were in vain as the Ethiopians just ignored them. These were the first Christians to accept Islam, and Almighty God revealed verses 52 to 55 of chapter 28 in praise of their stand and subsequent reward in the hereafter[16].
The conversion to Islam of the Abyssinian's Christian delegation, and few years later the conversion of the King (the Negus)[17] himself to Islam, was an additional force in the spread of Islam in the region. Subsequently all the heterogeneous peoples of the Red sea towns from Massawa to Zeila on the coast in present-day Djibouti, and off-lying Dahlak archipelago and Buri peninsula embraced Islam. From these towns, Islam spread among the nomads of the lowlands neighbouring the coast, like Bega and Afar (or Afar-Dankil). Islamic expansion was connected with trade, and traders from the coast were active throughout the region. Within a short period, there were numerous Islamic communities throughout northeastern and southern-eastern regions of Aksumu kingdom and a string of trade-based Muslim principalities along the trade routes leading inland from Zeila. The eastern plain and the Harar plateau region where the nomadic tribes of Afar (or afar-Dankil) Somali, Beja, Saho and Galla became wholly Muslim region. (See map below)
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Posted: Sunday July 30th, 2006 09:12 |
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East_African wrote: Jay Jay wrote:
@East African
My comments about muslims doing this thing or that thing which is forbidden by your book was irrelevant, I said so myself because I digressed, this I mentioned.
Thats the point you didn't even say muslims you said:
Personally I've been to the middle-east 6 times, there is nothing muslims can tell me about arab culture and religion, I've seen all facets of the culture, I seen stuff that is forbidden in their culture done infront of me simply because they know that I am not of that culture so I am not bothered what they do, yes I've seen them eat pork, yes I've seen them drink alcohol.....but it is not true. rolleyes
Not drinking is not arabic or middle eastern culture, rather it is islamic culture.Two different things.All middle easterners are not christians,there are jews and christians, but they to see themselves as much an arab as arab muslims.I'f i use your example prior to islam "drinking" was a important aspect of arabic culture.Much of the trade was centered around alcohol, thus when the arabs got drunk they used to fight and kil amongst each other.What put a stop to this?Islam, so you see there was a conflict between arabic culture and islam.hence why the arab pagans (moon worshippers) went to war with early muslims because islam was revolutionary it tried to change the way of life of the arab.Another example,what is the cultural dress of the arab women?No it's not the veil or being covered.Before islam arabic women used to wear a a simple cloth which showed their breasts.Again islam put a stop this, the arabs resisted these changes in their culture.
And now the women are clothed literally from head to toe with only a slit for the eyes, truely they are now second class citizens, this used done in the victorian era 200 yrs, So we have some sort of measure how for behind islamic culture is regarding women to the rest of the world.
East African, I hear where you are coming from, I understand what you are saying, everything I've seen and learned from arab culture only re-enforces my views, I have witnessed everything beforehand in the UK by the muslim community anyway, who are predomantly P*kistani. OT... I remember fond memorys of Yukub and Idris eating them sausage rolls and saying "I'm not supposed to eat this.. why? it tates nice" I also know that during ramadan muslims buy fast food during day, go home and eat in privacy, So whilst you may make a valid distinction between arab and islamic culture, I personally remove that drawed line.
The crux of my post was to try to show that there are hand me downs from previous religions in islamic culture, namely hand me downs from moon god culture which is undeniable. Look on top of a mosque!
My friend these are just symbols,just like most western nations have crosses on their flags.Did jesus use that symbol or did any of his followers recorded in the bible wear a cross?no.But this is seen a sign of christianity.Can we argure then jesus used and copied the cross from previous religions,the answer is no.Similiarly muhammad saw or any of his followers never used the moon as symbol of islam?
The moon as a symbol was used as a transition from one religion to another, the moon above the mosque helped the masses adopt the new religion by placing something they were familiar with in/on a place of worship. They are remnants of a previous religions, just like the cross is, even the crucifixion of the life, death and rebirth format, came from previous religions.
.
In Afganistan they destroyed a rock sculpture of buddha which was more than 2000 years old because of this idol business, yet the kaba remains which was made for the moon good 'Sin', in fact hajj and eveything is based from the moon god culture yet all of this remains, All of this is pre-islamic culture strictly adhered to today.
Muslims believe that kabba was built by ishmael(descendant of muhammad) and mecca is the same place as the wilderness of paran in which hagar the egyptian is saif to have wandered.We also believe it was established as a place of worship for Allah swt.But later on the arabs started to change it and establised idols.Which is why they knew the name "Allah" but attributed it to a moon god.What Muhammad saw did was simply get rid of these "innovations" by the pagan arabs.And go back to the way of ishmael who we believe worshipped allah swt on that site.The pagan arabs changed the practices and run around naked around the kaba.Similiarly we believe that jesus was a prophet but some christians later started calling him "god".So you are wrong the hajj is not based on moon culture it is based on the actions of prophet ishmael and his sons.If this was the case, the moon worshippers would not have gone to war with Muhammad, if he was like you say basing islam on moon culture.
There is no actual historical person called Ishmael, just like there wasn't a David or Jacob. I'm not hating, these are just plain facts. So using them names with me as proof means nothing, because they never actually existed.
The pagan arabs never changed nothing, islam just added a differant name to a previous practise, they never used to run naked, no more than we dont wear grass skirts and have bones through our noses...the Meccans did the same thing muslims do today with hajj, only my guess is they didn't get killed in a stampede.
It's no differant than christmas not actullt being Jesus's birhtday, but a mark for the winter solstice. Just like Easter being used for Jesus's ressurection, a rebirth? during spring...... which derived from Ostern, Eostra, Eostre, Eostur, Eastra, Eastur and so on......Ashtoreth, Kali, Ishtar, Hathor, Aphrodite also marks spring, all female gods(dont take it literally), all denote rebitrh, resurrection...spring. Islam is no different with regards to pasting it's name onto something else, then altering a few things. This is a well known and used format the whole world over islam is no different.
The kabba was not built for Allah, Allah was just one of the 360 others, 360 is a very interesting number don't you think? It sound more romantic to think it was made for Allah first then changed....truth is, it wasn', you may look towards Hubal or Sin as the chief deity of the kabba. You can even trace Hubal back to Sumerian mythos.
The Meccans its immediate predecessor, is where the vast majority of islamic/arabic culture from.
Last edited on Sunday July 30th, 2006 09:19 by Jay Jay
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Posted: Sunday July 30th, 2006 15:36 |
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Jay Jay wrote:
And now the women are clothed literally from head to toe with only a slit for the eyes, truely they are now second class citizens, this used done in the victorian era 200 yrs, So we have some sort of measure how for behind islamic culture is regarding women to the rest of the world.
Theres nothing in islamic culture that says you must wear a slit for your eyes.This is not neccesary.But anway since when was revealing your body a sign of progression.I have people in my family who never used to wear a hijab in muslims somalia but know have started wearing it in the west.Many people are knowing leaving the western norms and coming back to the islamic culture.There was even a post in this thread saying that muslim women didn't feel oppressed.Know am not saying that there are no problems that need to be addressed in the islamic culture.But what right do you have to look at a women in islam and say she is a second class citizen because theyway she is dressed?The way i see it is that the people in the west expect everyone to speak and thing like them.If islamic culture regarding women is backwards then why are so many people coming back to it.Maybe they are brainwashed?
The moon as a symbol was used as a transition from one religion to another, the moon above the mosque helped the masses adopt the new religion by placing something they were familiar with in/on a place of worship. They are remnants of a previous religions, just like the cross is, even the crucifixion of the life, death and rebirth format, came from previous religions.
Simple question is why did Muhammad saw not use the moon as a sign to get support from the pagan arabs?If it was a transition period?What your saying is historically inaccurate because by the time the sign was used on the mosque, the masses had already accepted the religion.As for the flags of islam being the crescent ans star this again wasn't used until the ottoman times so again what your saying is historicallt inaccurate.
There is no actual historical person called Ishmael, just like there wasn't a David or Jacob. I'm not hating, these are just plain facts. So using them names with me as proof means nothing, because they never actually existed
Plain facts?You can't use your opinions as facts.There is more evidence to suggest that he did exist then your assertation he didn't exist.People in my family count back their forefathers to a thousand years.In a tribal society anyone that attempts to lie will quickly be found as there are elders who know all the names of the tribes and who their forefthers dating back up to many years.Arabia was a deeply tribal society, everyone knew muhammad saw belonged to the quraish tribe, are you denying that?Just like my family can trace their linaege up to so many years.His tribe was able to trace their lineage up to that period of time, then all the way up to ishmael.Islam discouraged people to lie abou the lineage, if the prophet of islam lied about his linaege what do you think the people would have thought?
This book contains the life of the Apostle of God: Muhammad was the son of Abd Allah, son of Abdu-l-Mottaleb, son of Hashim, son of Abd Menaf, son of Kussei, son of Kilab, son of Murra, son of Kaab, son of Luei, son of Ghalib, son of Fihr, son of Malik, son of Nadhr, son of Kinana, son of Khuzeima, son of Mudrika, son of Alya, son of Mudhar, son of Nizar, son of Maad, son of Adrian, son of Udd, son of Mukawwam, son of Nahor, son of Teira, son of Yarob, son of Yashyob, son of Nabit, son of Ishmael,
.
Last edited on Sunday July 30th, 2006 15:40 by East_African
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Posted: Sunday July 30th, 2006 23:01 |
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East_African wrote:
Theres nothing in islamic culture that says you must wear a slit for your eyes.This is not neccesary.1. But anway since when was revealing your body a sign of progression. 2. I have people in my family who never used to wear a hijab in muslims somalia but know have started wearing it in the west.Many people are knowing leaving the western norms and coming back to the islamic culture. 3.There was even a post in this thread saying that muslim women didn't feel oppressed.Know am not saying that there are no problems that need to be addressed in the islamic culture. But what right do you have to look at a women in islam and say she is a second class citizen because theyway she is dressed?The way i see it is that the people in the west expect everyone to speak and thing like them.If islamic culture regarding women is backwards then why are so many people coming back to it. Maybe they are brainwashed?
Maybe they are brainwashed! they are definitely conditioned. One and the same....if you are brought a certain way then you have gone through a form of conditioning. If the cap fits......Back on point.
1. You assume that I think revealing ones body is a sign of progression. I never said this, but equally I can control myself, I try to be responsible for my own actions, I don't need a doctrine to keep myself in check. Observation: in many muslim countries women cant walk around in short sleeves and normal skirts because they would be leered at, or leched over. Ever wondered why the laws are so strict in muslim countries? It's because of the artificial
repression imposed that inturn turns into oppression of others
2. I have noticed an increasing take up of hijab wearing and beards growing overnight, these usually are triggered after certain events.(make of this what you will)
3. I've seen and heard muslim women say thery're not oppressed, these were the very same women who said they think it's ok for them to be stoned to death for adultery, yet the man doesn't get stoned for the same crime, what 's up with that? now thats the equallity I like.... As for women being second class in islam, I stand by my comments, repression imposed on men that makes them oppress the women in kind, there is no self control, nobodys taking responsibility, responsibility is shifted away from the self and onto a book of faith that says do this only. Yep I said it!!!
did you know that in some muslim countries a woman cant leave the house unless accompanied by a brother, husband or father? did you know women cant leave the country without a mans consent?
did you know they are not allowed to drive a car? would you not call this second class citizenship? switch.. how about when our black people couldn't drive buses, was this second class citizenship in the west? yes it was. So what is the difference? the difference is what you are prepared to see, face and accept in your own backyard. You would readily accept the west could be and is responsible for making people second class, but not you or the culture you're from... eh? When it is upon you, you notice it, when it is directed at you, it does not exist.
Simple question is why did Muhammad saw not use the moon as a sign to get support from the pagan arabs?If it was a transition period?What your saying is historically inaccurate because by the time the sign was used on the mosque, the masses had already accepted the religion.As for the flags of islam being the crescent ans star this again wasn't used until the ottoman times so again what your saying is historicallt inaccurate.
Regardless of what you think or say, the moon symbol was there before, it doesn't matter how you dress it up, it's attributed to the moon god, it was there before, it's there now, just like hajj, just like praying 5 times a day, just like the kabba...there were all there beforehand, so if there were there before islam then they are borrowed from a prior religion. Thats my simple point, deal with it and move on, don't try and explain it.
There is no actual historical person called Ishmael, just like there wasn't a David or Jacob. I'm not hating, these are just plain facts. So using them names with me as proof means nothing, because they never actually existed
Plain facts?You can't use your opinions as facts.There is more evidence to suggest that he did exist then your assertation he didn't exist.People in my family count back their forefathers to a thousand years.In a tribal society anyone that attempts to lie will quickly be found as there are elders who know all the names of the tribes and who their forefthers dating back up to many years.Arabia was a deeply tribal society, everyone knew muhammad saw belonged to the quraish tribe, are you denying that?Just like my family can trace their linaege up to so many years.His tribe was able to trace their lineage up to that period of time, then all the way up to ishmael.Islam discouraged people to lie abou the lineage, if the prophet of islam lied about his linaege what do you think the people would have thought?
This book contains the life of the Apostle of God: Muhammad was the son of
Abd Allah, son of Abdu-l-Mottaleb, son of Hashim, son of Abd Menaf, son of Kussei, son of Kilab, son of Murra, son of Kaab, son of Luei, son of Ghalib, son of Fihr, son of Malik, son of Nadhr, son of Kinana, son of Khuzeima, son of Mudrika, son of Alya, son of Mudhar, son of Nizar, son of Maad, son of Adrian, son of Udd, son of Mukawwam, son of Nahor, son of Teira, son of Yarob, son of Yashyob, son of Nabit, son of Ishmael,
Facts are facts... There is no historical account of Ishmael, Jacob or David ever actually existing, I'm just being real and telling like it is, you are using an after the fact argument with me, I've mentioned this type of argument already in this thread, If there is no historical Ishmael, Jacob or David then how can you use scripture or a book based from it or what they say as a reference? they can find dead people of no "great importance" (just a term) or "of importance" from 150,000yrs ago, 60,000yrs ago, 10,000, 3000, 600, 2yrs ago, yet they cant find a single shread of evidence of a real existance of certain "great" people said to have lived in the holy books.....apart from being handed down orally? It would be easier to say that everybody just accended so therefore no proof.
Let me tell you something about history, origins and people, people always made writting or pictures or monuments of certain signifcances at that time, people has always done this. They would draw a bigger man or animal that was more prominant that's for sure. Before we could speak languages we could could draw and construct things, so even an argument of an oral tradition is bunk. It's not an opinion, you show me facts outside of scripture, before scripture, that corroborates scripture. You can't.....you can't because you do not accept where people on this very forum are showing where it comes from. Therefore you can never claim it as fact. and never as literal.
Even if gave every person you listed above a maximum life cycle of 144yrs x 28 peeps = 4032yrs before Muhammad, we have a very detailed global history set in stone during the time frame of between 5000-3000BCE. To top that we know people had a short lifespans during them times anyway, it is said Abraham father of Ishmael lived around 1900BCE and lived till he was 175?..........during 1900BCE? does anything add up in slightest?
Simple thinking says the geneology dosen't quite add up. It doesn't even add up because there was no historical person named Abraham(ibrahim) actually ever existing outside of the Hebrew scriptures. We know who is who and where is what, when and how long this was there and that occured, all of this way before the hebrew papyrus was written.
Do me a favour....if you decide to reply to any of this post, dont quote the post directly, it will look messy, firefox and this forum gives many a problem, look at the hyperlinks in the whole text, it wasn't me.
Last edited on Monday July 31st, 2006 11:13 by Jay Jay
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Posted: Monday July 31st, 2006 11:37 |
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Jay Jay wrote:
did you know that in some muslim countries a woman cant leave the house unless accompanied by a brother, husband or father? did you know women cant leave the country without a mans consent?
did you know they are not allowed to drive a car? would you not call this second class citizenship? switch.. how about when our black people couldn't drive buses, was this second class citizenship in the west? yes it was. So what is the difference? the difference is what you are prepared to see, face and accept in your own backyard. You would readily accept the west could be and is responsible for making people second class, but not you or the culture you're from... eh? When it is upon you, you notice it, when it is directed at you, it does not exist.
yes saudi arabia and that is not my own backyard.good bye i won't be replying anymore because it seems we are walking around in circles.I say something you disagree, you say something i disagree.Lets agree to disagree.
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Posted: Monday July 31st, 2006 14:16 |
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I hear wind.........
I said countries plural, more than one, your region is just a practitioner of genitile mutilation, but it does not exist? and we wont go down that road....
You don't like the fact Islam was founded on the back of moon worship and other previous religions....it was! muslims don't like to draw attention to the crescent moon, even though whole structures in your society shows moon shaped curves, have a look!!! have a look in your own house, maybe you see the sun and the moon, as a fridge magnet, clock, painting, ornaments, wall hangings, drapes, pillows, blankets, socks, shirts, carpets it's all around you, it's been handed down to you. But you dont really know why.
So as you've decided not to respond regarding Ishmael son of Ibrahim? who lived till he was 175yrs during 1900BCE in an era and region that is and was so well documented from Alkebulon/Kemet to Mesopotamia and all surrounding countries? Ibriham lived during a time of scribes, yet his actual story never surfaced for about 1000yrs afterwards under the guise of an oral tradition?
OT.......How about the myth of Muhammad being illterate? yet marrying an well to do woman when he was young? I'm sure the woman would help keep him illiterate....sure he also ran businesses and came from the top tribe which you've already mentioned.
Regarding a prophet lying about his heritage and linage, it is not about lying, it's about people wanting to believe something is so true that they can make it happen, do you understand this.....nope.
I see a few tumbleweeds rolling by......
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Posted: Monday July 31st, 2006 14:57 |
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Jay Jay wrote: I hear wind.........
I said countries plural, more than one, your region is just a practitioner of genitile mutilation, but it does not exist? and we wont go down that road....
This is practiced all across of africa and less so in the middle east.Which is reallt ironic because if this islamic culture was arabic culture as say it is, then the africans would have stopped practicing this act like the middle east. Not just islamic countries.Similar to polygamous marriages which was always prevelant in african society.These problems are being addressed in my region by the people and organisations.Which you probably won't know much about. Your taking words out of my mouth lets us go back back to what initially said which didn't pay attention to.
Posted: Sunday July 30th, 2006 16:36 by east african:
Know am not saying that there are no problems that need to be addressed in the islamic culture
if you had payed attention to this statement then you would have noticed that i acknowledged there are problems in muslim countries that need to be addressed.As for all your other points i could refute and answer all of them till my hands ache, according to my opinion.But what would be the point it seems you have made up your mind already?You got it all figured out, you know islam more than me.Muslims have erronously been worshipping the moon god for 14OOyears.Some one has been hiding this secret from us.So i should look at my f the house to see the so called facts.It will wake me up and show the "truth".I don't even know how it was handed down to me.But i won't argue with you since you got it all figured out, muslims are confused, maybe we should appoint you the "grand mufti" tell me something new please.......... good bye
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Jay Jay
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Posted: Monday July 31st, 2006 15:41 |
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You say I don't pay attention and equally you don't either...
Jay Jay wrote:
You don't like the fact Islam was founded on the back of moon worship and other previous religions....it was! muslims don't like to draw attention to the crescent moon, even though whole structures in your society shows moon shaped curves, have a look!!! have a look in your own house, maybe you see the sun and the moon, as a fridge magnet, clock, painting, ornaments, wall hangings, drapes, pillows, blankets, socks, shirts, carpets it's all around you, it's been handed down to you. But you dont really know why."
Nobody said you pray to the moon god, I never that's for sure, yet everything you do in your religion or culture points to where it originates from.
You know all facets about islam more than me, I never say differant, I never argue this point with you, I have always argued or tried to show the origins, you know...what came before and how it influences in what people do now...
So you don't fast on the very same as the Meccans in pre-islamic times?
So you don't make pligrimages hajj, used to be called Umrah, which occured in pre islamic times?
So you dont pray 5 times a day, at the same times as in pre-islamic times?
So you don't pray to Mecca as in pre-islamic times?
So does the qur'an tell you to pray to Mecca? or the city of peace? not one and the same.
So does a Meccan Hadith tell you to pray to Mecca?
Can you give a truthful simple yes or no answer? or will I hear the wind.......
So, why do you pray east?
So what is the origins of the actual practise of your faith?
I do not want to be the Grand Mufti, an Ayatollah, a Pope or any sort of religious leader, all these people are full of fart, It's you that wants and needs to be lead by them, I am average joe who just sees some holes. Not one single time throughout this entire thread you have made an actual comment about the actual origins, instead you've side-stepped it, I'm not just having a pop at you, christian will go silent, hurl insults or laugh at something they don't want to answer either.
Last edited on Monday July 31st, 2006 15:59 by Jay Jay
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SOLOMON
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Posted: Tuesday August 1st, 2006 01:08 |
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QUOTE
When you're quite done, if you like, I can explain about the moon god.
The word "allah" is only the Arabic word which means "god". I suspect that you believe Muslims follow the ancient moon god, "Hubal", because of this.
Is Hubal The Same As Allah?
The Christian missionaries have argued over many years that "Allah" of the Qur'an was in fact a pagan Arab "Moon god" of pre-Islamic times. The primary proponent of this view was Robert Morey, and, along with his missionary brethren, he has propagated these views extensively. We have made a devastating refutation of this claim by utilising the archaeological evidence and showed how Morey's claims were nothing but a grand fraud. ...
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Allah/hubal.html
==================================
A Christian said to me that Allah was the old name for the moon. Is it true? What is the significance of the moon in Islam?
I would like to draw your attention to the fact that there is an ongoing media war on Islam, carried out by some groups among the People of the Book. The principle of One God and one humanity taught by Islam undermines the inherent bigotry and racism of the Zionists; while for some Christians, Islam’s uncompromising stance against the polytheistic Trinitarian concept of God in Christianity is a reason to fight Islam.
They know that the Muslim belief in One God is unassailable. Yet, they try to undermine the Muslims’ faith by bringing forth charges like the one you indicated. Namely, that Allah is not the One God of the universe, but one of the many gods of the pagans of Arabia.
It is true that the Makkan pagans knew of Allah. But they believed Him to be the Creator of the universe, not as the moon god. They prayed to all the lesser gods as mediators to Allah, just as the Christians consider the saints to be the mediators to God, thereby diluting their worship to God.
There was no idol called “Allah�, though all the lesser gods of the Makkan pagans were represented by idols. As the Qur’an says, they claimed what means:
*{We only serve them [the idols] in order that they may bring us nearer to Allah.}* (Az-Zumar 39:3)
So the pagan Arabs believed in Allah as the Supreme Ruler of the universe, while praying to their lesser deities. Whereas Islam teaches that no one deserves our worship and prayers except Allah, Who is the Sovereign Creator and Cherisher of the universe.
The following verses of the Qur’an - among others - will make clear that Allah can never be a provincial god. They read what means:
*{ To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: “Be,� and it is.}* (Al-Baqarah 2:177)
*{For Allah is He Who gives [all] sustenance, Lord of Power, Steadfast [for ever].}* (Adh-Dhariyat 51:58)
*{And verily unto Us belong the end and the beginning.}* (Al-Layl 92:13)
*{To Allah do all matters return.}* (Aal `Imran 3:109)
A man called Dr. Robert Morey has brought out a book titled, The Moon-God Allah in the Archeology of the Middle East. Evidently, this malicious work is the source of the allegation you heard from your Christian friend. To know about the deceptive strategies employed by Dr. Morey, you may read: Reply To Dr. Robert Morey's Moon-God Myth & Other Deceptive Attacks On Islam - by Shabbir Ally.
As for the picture of the crescent moon, which some Muslims use as a symbol, this is due to the fact that the crescent marks the beginning of the Islamic months. Since the Muslim calendar is a lunar one - and not a solar one - some Muslims started using the crescent moon as a symbol on the flag, for instance. There is no doubt that the crescent moon has no significance other than this. It is not a “holy symbol�. This is because Islam does not believe in any “holy idols� or symbols to be worshipped!
The Qur’an says what means:
*{They ask you concerning the new moons. Say: They are but times appointed for [the benefit of] men, and [for] the pilgrimage … … …}* (Al-Baqarah 2:189)
As a matter of fact, you cannot see any religion or ideology objecting to idolatry so vehemently as Islam: The Qur'an tells the story of how Ibrahim, peace be upon him, demolished the idols made by his own father. God says in the Qur’an that in Ibraheem you have a model to follow. And it is Ibrahim again who is presented as “the Friend of God� in the Qur'an as in the Bible. This is because Ibrahim was ready to sacrifice his only son to God.
Our scholars say that it was after a long period of waiting that Ibrahim was gifted with a son in answer to his prayers. And this gift of a son was Isma`il or Ishmael, peace be upon him. Probably when Ibrahim was so much absorbed in loving his son, God commanded him to sacrifice his son to Him! Ibrahim, peace be upon him, was immediate in repenting and returning to God, so much so that God saved him from the task of sacrificing his son and gave him the title: “Friend of God!� Even through this example God in the Qur'an underscores the importance of devotion to Him and Him only.
This is Islam: Submission to God the One and Only Creator and Sustainer of the universe. But, Dr. Morley and his tribe spend a lot of energy to prove that Islam is idolatry! Please remember that one of the first things Muhammad, peace be upon him, did when he returned to Makkah, was to demolish all the idols in and around the Ka`bah.
May Allah guide us to the Truth and strengthen our faith in Him in these hard times!
Thank you again for your question and please keep in touch.
Salam.
Useful Links:
The Crescent: A Symbol, Not an Icon
More about the Moon
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1123996016294&pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE
Last edited on Tuesday August 1st, 2006 01:48 by SOLOMON
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Posted: Tuesday August 1st, 2006 01:57 |
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In the Arabic Christian Bible is the name "Allah" in place of the word "God".
I suppose YOU believe this makes them Muslims!
Last edited on Tuesday August 1st, 2006 01:59 by SOLOMON
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Posted: Tuesday August 1st, 2006 19:06 |
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SOLOMON wrote:
Since the Muslim calendar is a lunar one - and not a solar one - some Muslims started using the crescent moon as a symbol on the flag, for instance. There is no doubt that the crescent moon has no significance other than this."
Sure....
Fast on the very same day as the Meccans in pre-islamic moon worship times?
Make pligrimages (hajj) used to be called Umrah, which occured in pre islamic moon worship times?
Pray 5 times a day, at the same times as in pre-islamic monn worship times?
Pray to Mecca as in pre-islamic moon worship times?
Does the qur'an tell you to pray to Mecca? or the city of peace? .
The Meccan Hadith tells you to pray to Mecca like in pre islamic moon worship times?
Nearly forgot... as mentioned in the very first post, Do muslims use a lunar calander like pre islamic moon worship times?
There is no doubt that the crescent moon has no significance other than these? and then some.....I hear alot of "it's just a symbol, not an icon" this was never the question asked, it was always where does it originate from?
LOL!!! There's moons alround islamic culture, but of course this does not exist! I'm not even delving as far back into the twisted thievery as the original post mentions, I'm just only going back to it's immediate predecessor to show moon stuff, and there are some big 'ol holes.
LOL!!! Hears a true story....when I was in the U.A.E back in May, I helped out a family member who works out there for a few days, they had a side business of selling hand painted wallhangings, I told them all the moon painted ones would go even though they weren't that nice, they all sold out.....why?
Origins are ingrained and handed down from generation to generation, people will do things yet... don't know why they do it, they gravitate towards certains things....
The moon is prominent, end of......
Last edited on Tuesday August 1st, 2006 19:07 by Jay Jay
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Tuesday August 1st, 2006 19:17 |
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SOLOMON wrote: Since the Muslim calendar is a lunar one - and not a solar one - some Muslims started using the crescent moon as a symbol on the flag, for instance. There is no doubt that the crescent moon has no significance other than this."
And the denial begins. Can you even address the hard facts presented here showing the connection to the Egyptian Moon neter, or called the Moon god to Arabs and Indo-Europeans? If not, then you are just making a moon-worship apologist rant.
Last edited on Tuesday August 1st, 2006 19:23 by Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Wednesday August 2nd, 2006 00:08 |
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Shemsi en Tehuti wrote: SOLOMON wrote: Since the Muslim calendar is a lunar one - and not a solar one - some Muslims started using the crescent moon as a symbol on the flag, for instance. There is no doubt that the crescent moon has no significance other than this."
And the denial begins. Can you even address the hard facts presented here showing the connection to the Egyptian Moon neter, or called the Moon god to Arabs and Indo-Europeans? If not, then you are just making a moon-worship apologist rant.
to what "connection" do you refer?
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Posted: Wednesday August 2nd, 2006 00:12 |
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SOLOMON wrote: In the Arabic Christian Bible is the name "Allah" in place of the word "God".
I suppose YOU believe this makes them Muslims!
or, does this make them "moon" worshipers?
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Posted: Wednesday August 2nd, 2006 00:25 |
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By the will of God more, later...
What prompted some Muslims to use the crescent, as a symbol on their flag, was the starting of the fast during the month of Ramadan, when the crescent appears. The crescent marks the beginning of the Islamic months, as Muslims follow the lunar calendar, not the Gregorian calendar. The crescent is not a “holy symbol�. Islam does not believe in any “holy idols� or symbols to be worshipped!
The Holy Qur’an says in Surah 2, verse 189:
*{They ask you concerning the new moons. Say: They are but times appointed for [the benefit of] men, and [for] the pilgrimage … … …}*
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Posted: Wednesday August 2nd, 2006 00:40 |
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Jay Jay wrote: SOLOMON wrote:
Fast on the very same day as the Meccans in pre-islamic moon worship times?
Why is the feast of Ramadan marked by the appearance of the crescent moon?
Answer:
I think you mean the fast of Ramadan. God commanded Muslims in the Qur'an to fast from dawn to sunset during the month called Ramadan (see Qur'an 2:185, 187). The beginning and end of the month is determined by the crescent (2:189) based on the instruction of God's Messenger, on whom be peace.
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Posted: Wednesday August 2nd, 2006 03:34 |
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SOLOMON wrote: Jay Jay wrote: SOLOMON wrote:
Fast on the very same day as the Meccans in pre-islamic moon worship times?
Why is the feast of Ramadan marked by the appearance of the crescent moon?
Answer:
I think you mean the fast of Ramadan. God commanded Muslims in the Qur'an to fast from dawn to sunset during the month called Ramadan (see Qur'an 2:185, 187). The beginning and end of the month is determined by the crescent (2:189) based on the instruction of God's Messenger, on whom be peace.
You are answering your own questions, that you make up!
It was the moonworshipers before islam who fasted during the same period now known as ramadan.
Here are some remaining questions.....all pre-islamic.
Fast on the very same day as the Meccans in pre-islamic moon worship times?
Make pligrimages (hajj) used to be called Umrah, which occured in pre islamic moon worship times?
Pray 5 times a day, at the same times as in pre-islamic monn worship times?
Pray to Mecca as in pre-islamic moon worship times?
Does the qur'an tell you to pray to Mecca? or the city of peace? .
The Meccan Hadith tells you to pray to Mecca like in pre islamic moon worship times?
Nearly forgot... as mentioned in the very first post, Do muslims use a lunar calander like pre islamic moon worship times?
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