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KANOBI
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Posted: Sunday April 10th, 2005 00:45 |
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AP Content :: Bible Bullets
Does The Word "Perfect" Really Mean "Perfect"?
 By Kyle Butt, M.A.
Nailing down accurate definitions to words remains one of the major problems in communicating any message to another person. It has been said that, in an argument, the person or party who defines the terms always wins. When it comes to the Bible, and claims of its alleged errancy, skeptics often employ the tactic of assigning certain meanings to the biblical language that the original words do not necessarily have. In many instances, the skeptic will take words, and impose upon them a twenty-first-century meaning that was not intended in the original text. Then they will demand an answer to this “obvious contradiction.�
To illustrate, consider Dan Barker’s book, Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist. He claims that a biblical contradiction exists between Romans 3:23 and Job 1:1 (1992, p. 171). He argues that Romans 3:23 says, “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God� (NKJV). But in Job 1:1, the man from Uz named Job was described as a man who “was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and turned away from evil.� Forcing the word “perfect� in Job 1:1 to mean what most twenty-first-century Americans take it to mean, Barker insists that a person cannot be “perfect� (defining the word as sinless, morally without error) and at the same time be sinful.
Granted, if the word translated “perfectâ€? in Job 1:1 means “absolute sinlessness,â€? then Barker has a solid point. But a brief study of the original word quickly shows that the Hebrew and Greek words that frequently are translated “perfectâ€? in our English Bibles do not always mean sinlessness. In their monumental work, the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, Harris, Archer, and Waltke addressed specifically the word used in Job 1:1. The Hebrew word tÅ?m, translated in Job 1:1 as perfect, has a number of different usages. The word, or one of its derivatives, is used in Genesis 17:1 where God told Abraham to “be perfect.â€? And all Israel was instructed to “be perfectâ€? in verses such as Deuteronomy 18:13, 2 Samuel 22:33, and Psalm 101:2,6. After listing these uses in their wordbook, the authors quote the Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible as saying, “the words which are rendered in English by ‘perfect’ and ‘perfection’ denoted originally something other and less than ideal perfectionâ€? (1980, p. 974, emp. added). In another authoritative Hebrew word study, Gesenius observed that the word translated as “perfectâ€? can mean “integrity of mindâ€? or “innocence.â€? He further commented that the word is used of “simplicity of mind, which is opposed to mischief and ill designâ€? (1979, p. 866). Obviously, then, the Hebrew word in Job 1:1 that is translated “perfectâ€? did not mean “sinlessness,â€? but was used instead to describe a person who was attempting to follow God’s commandments to the best of his or her ability.
It is inexcusable for any person to demand that a contradiction exists between two Bible passages, when he or she will not even take a few minutes to look up the actual meanings of the words in question. Such poor “scholarship� is lazy at best, and dishonest at worst. Whenever a word in the Bible seems to contradict another thought listed therein, one of the most common ways to reconcile the two is to look up the definitions of the original word. If Dan Barker had done that, he would have known that we are not instructed to be “perfect�—in the sense of sinless in 2 Corinthians 13:11. Nor are we to “hate� our family in the twenty-first-century American sense of despising, loathing, and abhorring (see Butt, 2003).
Furthermore, the fact that language changes, and the meanings of words must be studied, can be seen by observing different translations. For instance, when Paul explained to the Thessalonians what is going to happen when Jesus returns, he stated that the Christians who “are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep� (1 Thessalonians 4:15, KJV, emp. added). If we do not examine the meaning of this word, it seems to suggest that the Christians who are alive when Christ returns will not stop those that “are asleep.� That, however, is not what the Greek word phthano means. Other translations show that the this word, translated “prevent� in the King James Version, simply means, “precede� or “go before.�
Before any person presumes to point out an alleged discrepancy in the Bible, the very least that person could do is to study the meaning (in the original language) of the words in question. If such a study were carried out in an honest and forthright fashion, countless pages would be removed from the skeptics’ Web sites and books. Let us all, therefore, strive to be “perfect� in this area.
Last edited on Sunday April 10th, 2005 00:46 by KANOBI
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jamal786
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Posted: Sunday April 10th, 2005 00:53 |
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The Dictionary
per·fect Pronunciation Key (pûrfkt)
adj.
1. Lacking nothing essential to the whole; complete of its nature or kind.
2. Being without defect or blemish: a perfect specimen.
3. Thoroughly skilled or talented in a certain field or area; proficient.
4. Completely suited for a particular purpose or situation: She was the perfect actress for the part.
5.
1. Completely corresponding to a description, standard, or type: a perfect circle; a perfect gentleman.
2. Accurately reproducing an original: a perfect copy of the painting.
6. Complete; thorough; utter: a perfect fool.
7. Pure; undiluted; unmixed: perfect red.
8. Excellent and delightful in all respects: a perfect day.
9. Botany. Having both stamens and pistils in the same flower; monoclinous.
10. Grammar. Of, relating to, or constituting a verb form expressing action completed prior to a fixed point of reference in time.
11. Music. Designating the three basic intervals of the octave, fourth, and fifth.
n.
1. Grammar. The perfect tense.
2. A verb or verb form in the perfect tense.
tr.v. per·fect·ed, per·fect·ing, per·fects (pr-fkt)
To bring to perfection or completion.
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KANOBI
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Posted: Sunday April 10th, 2005 00:59 |
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| English dictionary hey! Need I say more! Can you see your mistake?
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Posted: Sunday April 10th, 2005 01:18 |
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“Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God BELONGS to such as these." Mark 10:14
By the way Jamal you can read what Jesus said and you are not as the little children.
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jamal786
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Posted: Sunday April 10th, 2005 02:35 |
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^^ the point is that they are not born in sin, and can enter heaven as it BELONGS to them. not all children grow up to be sinners... job didnt..
"...There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was PERFECT and UPRIGHT, and one that feared God, and ESCHEWED evil.Job 1:1-22 (King James Version)"
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KANOBI
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Posted: Sunday April 10th, 2005 03:09 |
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jamal786 wrote: ^^ the point is that they are not born in sin, and can enter heaven as it BELONGS to them. not all children grow up to be sinners... job didnt..
"...There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was PERFECT and UPRIGHT, and one that feared God, and ESCHEWED evil.Job 1:1-22 (King James Version)"
Jesus came to open the gates of the kingdom to mankind and his point was only the innocent (born again) will recieve the kingdom. You don't understand because you do not read the bible.
If you want to use this quote you must realise you do not reach the standard set!
As for Job it is answered
http://www.blackchat.co.uk/theblackforum/forum26/10736-2.html
Last edited on Sunday April 10th, 2005 03:10 by KANOBI
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jamal786
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Posted: Sunday April 10th, 2005 04:36 |
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Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, "Allow the little children, and don't forbid them to come to me; for the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to ones like these." WEB
But Jesus said, Suffer the little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for to such belongeth the kingdom of heaven. ASV
But Jesus said, Let the little ones come to me, and do not keep them away: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. BBE
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and do not hinder them from coming to me; for the kingdom of the heavens is of such: DBY
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. KJV
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not to come to me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. WBS
Jesus however said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them; for it is to those who are childlike that the Kingdom of the Heavens belongs." WEY
But Jesus said, 'Suffer the children, and forbid them not, to come unto me, for of such is the reign of the heavens;' YLT
...choose any one, they all say the same thing! ...the verse is clear, whether you read the entire chapter or the entire bible!
...just as the bible also tells us ALL do not grow up to be sinners:
Job 1:1
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job. That man was blameless and upright, and one who feared God, and turned away from evil. WEB
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and turned away from evil. ASV
There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job. He was without sin and upright, fearing God and keeping himself far from evil. BBE
There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and this man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God and abstained from evil. DBY
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. KJV
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and shunned evil. WBS
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was whole-hearted and upright, and one that feared God, and shunned evil. JPS
A man there hath been in the land of Uz -- Job his name -- and that man hath been perfect and upright -- both fearing God, and turning aside from evil. YLT
...again... ...choose any one, they all say the same thing! ...the verse is clear, whether you read the entire chapter or the entire bible!
Last edited on Sunday April 10th, 2005 04:37 by jamal786
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KANOBI
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Posted: Sunday April 10th, 2005 06:09 |
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| /\/\/\/\Thank you! and what was the point in that. Where trying to make my point clearer?
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jamal786
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Posted: Sunday April 10th, 2005 17:20 |
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So now you agree that all are not sinners. Children are not sinners, Job was not a sinner.
(Job 1:1) There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was PERFECT and UPRIGHT, and one that feared God, and ESCHEWED evil.
(Job 1:8) And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is NONE like him in the earth, a PERFECT and an UPRIGHT man, one that feareth God, and ESCHEWETH evil?
Therefore this means NO Original Sin and NO Eternal Salvation
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KANOBI
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Posted: Sunday April 10th, 2005 17:30 |
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Job Answered
http://www.blackchat.co.uk/theblackforum/forum26/10736-2.html
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jamal786
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Posted: Sunday April 10th, 2005 18:08 |
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..No Kanobi, Job did not sin (Job 1:1) as he was perfect, upright and eschewed evil.
Also Melchizedek (Heb. 7:3) is "Like Jesus", and therefore also is sinless.
Also Zechariah and Elizibeth did not sin (Luke 1:5-6). Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly.
Also Mary did not sin. The Angel who delivers God’s message, says that she is full of grace in (Luke 1: 28) "Hail, (MARY) full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women."
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KANOBI
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Posted: Sunday April 10th, 2005 18:17 |
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Read the bible! You going to continue to be ignorant but if you wish to lie to yourself continue.
Bare in mind observance of the law can be considered righteous but it does not mean moral perfection. Romans goes into this in depth so maybe you should read it and stop being foolish.
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jamal786
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Posted: Sunday April 10th, 2005 18:28 |
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The fact remains that the bible says:
There is no one righteous, not even one; Romans 3:10
..Which contradicts further passages which say:
Job did not sin (Job 1:1) as he was perfect, upright and eschewed evil.
Also Melchizedek (Heb. 7:3) is "Like Jesus", and therefore also is sinless.
Also Zechariah and Elizibeth did not sin (Luke 1:5-6). Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly.
Also Mary did not sin. The Angel who delivers God’s message, says that she is full of grace in (Luke 1: 28) "Hail, (MARY) full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women."
..Therefore next time you use a verse such as Romans 3:10, i suggerst you consider it properly first, unless you are prepared to admit bible contradictions.
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Posted: Sunday April 10th, 2005 18:30 |
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Why is it that Muslims do not accept the doctrine of Original Sin?
""Some will say that Adam was created perfect and that when he sinned he ruined that perfection. This suggestion makes no sense. If perfection meant that Adam had no ability to choose between good and evil, then how did he exercise that choice which he supposedly did not have? And if he had the ability to choose, as Muslims believe, then why would God remain forever angry with him for his first mistake? Humankind was then in its infancy. We needed someone to pick us up when we fall, not someone to bulldoze us with a tremendous burden of sin and guilt.
Some will say that God could not forgive Adam even if He wanted to do so, since God is Just and He must exact justice. This is as if to say that justice is contrary to mercy, and that God is so fenced in by His own law that He has no freedom to do what He wants to do. How silly! The truth is that God warns us of His punishment, but He also promises forgiveness for those who sincerely repent. If He decides to save sinners, who is there to say He cannot do what He wishes?""
http://www.geocities.com/islamroots/a/christ/TheOriginalSin.htm
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KANOBI
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Posted: Sunday April 10th, 2005 20:01 |
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jamal786 wrote: Why is it that Muslims do not accept the doctrine of Original Sin?
""Some will say that Adam was created perfect and that when he sinned he ruined that perfection. This suggestion makes no sense. If perfection meant that Adam had no ability to choose between good and evil, then how did he exercise that choice which he supposedly did not have? PAUSE!..........................Who said perfection meant inability to choose good and evil? In fact perfection requires freewill. And if he had the ability to choose, as Muslims believe, then why would God remain forever angry with him for his first mistake? Does the fact that he chose to sin lessen the charge? Would he have been more guilty if he did not choose? Adam was created a free agent who was responsible for his actions and he chose evil and broke his covenant with God. The offence of the trespass is in relationship to the dignity of who it was committed against. As Almighty Gods is holy and perfect and his dignity is infinite any trespass against him is infinite and is an completely offensive to his holiness. This is why mankind was expelled from the presence of God. Humankind was then in its infancy. We needed someone to pick us up when we fall, not someone to bulldoze us with a tremendous burden of sin and guilt. Adam knew enough to be held accountable for his sin and so he was guilty as he knew he was doing evil. Adam was not a baby nor did he have the mind of one!
Some will say that God could not forgive Adam even if He wanted to do so, since God is Just and He must exact justice. This is as if to say that justice is contrary to mercy, and that God is so fenced in by His own law that He has no freedom to do what He wants to do. How silly! But neither does God go against his nature so there must be justice before mankind can be fully forgiven. God provided a way because of his mercy and he remained just and consistent with his nature, and in doing so showed his love for mankind. The truth is that God warns us of His punishment, but He also promises forgiveness for those who sincerely repent. If He decides to save sinners, who is there to say He cannot do what He wishes?"" He can do as he wishes but what does God wish to do? what he wishes to do must be consistent with his holy nature. To just overlook the Sin of Adam is to be inconsistent with his holiness. Can you tell me why Adam suffered at all for his sin in this fallen world? Can you explain to me why God allows Satan to continue whisper in mans ear? It seems these things are related to the fact Adams sinned would you agree?
http://www.geocities.com/islamroots/a/christ/TheOriginalSin.htm mmmmm?
Try these instead
http://www.muhammadanism.com/Gospel/Atonement_Meaning.htm
http://www.muhammadanism.com/strombeck/great_salvation.pdf
Last edited on Sunday April 10th, 2005 20:33 by KANOBI
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Posted: Monday April 11th, 2005 00:17 |
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The point is that this is why MUSLIMS do not believe in origianal sin.
However, to explain, we believe that one is not judged for the sins of another, and that Allah is forgiving. Most gracious, most merciful.
Furthermore, the christian theory is that Adam was created perfect and then fell from grace and sinned. What the article argues is that if Adam was perfect then he would not have sinned for any reason, for he would have been unable to do evil, as evil is a sign of impurity and no impurity would have been able to impregnate him at all if he were pure and perfect.
Obviously he was not pure and perfect, as he had the potential to do wrong and evil which he did. If Adam was created as a perfect being, then the question is that did god know what he would do. If god did not know or think that Adam would sin then Adam was created sinless.
If Adam was created sinless and then went on to sin, then god made a mistake in thinkng that Adam was sinless, perfect and pure.
If god knew that Adam would sin or had the potential to sin, then Adam was not made perfect, or be it made in a way that he would remain perfect. This therefore means that god knew that Adam had the potential to sin, which is why he had to tell him to stay away from the fobbidden tree.
Therefore, since God knew this could happen at any time, why would it come as such a surprise as what Adam done. Obviously Adam was in a learning stage and would be chastised for his wrong doing and told not to do it again. God is merciful at the end of the day. Why would all mankind be blamed for this sin, it makes no sense.
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KANOBI
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Posted: Monday April 11th, 2005 00:36 |
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jamal786 wrote: The point is that this is why MUSLIMS do not believe in origianal sin.
However, to explain, we believe that one is not judged for the sins of another, and that Allah is forgiving. Most gracious, most merciful.
Furthermore, the christian theory is that Adam was created perfect and then fell from grace and sinned. What the article argues is that if Adam was perfect then he would not have sinned for any reason, for he would have been unable to do evil, as evil is a sign of impurity and no impurity would have been able to impregnate him at all if he were pure and perfect.
Obviously he was not pure and perfect, as he had the potential to do wrong and evil which he did. If Adam was created as a perfect being, then the question is that did god know what he would do. If god did not know or think that Adam would sin then Adam was created sinless.
If Adam was created sinless and then went on to sin, then god made a mistake in thinkng that Adam was sinless, perfect and pure.
If god knew that Adam would sin or had the potential to sin, then Adam was not made perfect, or be it made in a way that he would remain perfect. This therefore means that god knew that Adam had the potential to sin, which is why he had to tell him to stay away from the fobbidden tree.
Therefore, since God knew this could happen at any time, why would it come as such a surprise as what Adam done. Obviously Adam was in a learning stage and would be chastised for his wrong doing and told not to do it again. God is merciful at the end of the day. Why would all mankind be blamed for this sin, it makes no sense.
Perfection and the ability to sin are compatible. To disobey God is simply a choice a being with freewill can make. Perfection does not mean one does not have that choice. I dealt with this on this thread.
http://www.blackchat.co.uk/theblackforum/forum26/7976.html
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Posted: Monday April 11th, 2005 01:03 |
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If man was not created perfect who is responsible for mans sin? If god is good and hates sin why did he create man a weakness to sin? But hold on you actually believe that man can live without sinning! I think your not intouch with reality! and the bible for that matter!
Your view of perfection is void of freewill and that is the problem. If it was possible for man to be perfect in the way you envision but yet have freewill then God would have created him so! wouldn't that be ideal? And according to your vision of perfection we would still be in paradise and no man would see hell. Why wouldn't a good God do this? Maybe because he wanted only dishonest people to find the truth? Thats why he sent a Religion that is morally corrupt and presents a false view of God and man.
Alternatively Islam is a false belief!
Last edited on Monday April 11th, 2005 01:04 by KANOBI
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Posted: Monday April 11th, 2005 01:19 |
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Exactly, if man has freewill, then he has the potential to do wrong. Therefore god knew that Adam had the potential to sin and do wrong, which he did. Man is perfect as he is as god wanted him to be. This included the ability to sin. Therefore, man does not hold any burden for the sins of Adam as mans is the same as Adam with the same potential to sin as Adam. It is illogical to say that man is damned due to Adams sin, as man had the potential to sin whether Adam sinned or not.
Some sin, some do not. This is why it is also illogical for ALL mankind to be punished for Adams sin.
Job did not sin (Job 1:1) as he was perfect, upright and eschewed evil.
Also Melchizedek (Heb. 7:3) is "Like Jesus", and therefore also is sinless.
Also Zechariah and Elizibeth did not sin (Luke 1:5-6). Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly.
Also Mary did not sin. The Angel who delivers God’s message, says that she is full of grace in (Luke 1: 28) "Hail, (MARY) full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women."
What you dont realise is that by the bible alone, the theory of original sin is flawed.
Furthermore, the bible tells that man is not responsible for the sins of others, therefore again, the sins of Adam is irrelevant.
"The son (the progeny of Adam) shall NOT bear the iniquity of the father (Adam)." Ezekiel 18:20
"every man shall receive his OWN reward according to his OWN labour."I Corinthians 3:8
"The fathers shall NOT be put to death for the children, NEITHER shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his OWN sin." Deuteronomy 24:16
"But every one shall die for his OWN iniquity ..." Jeremiah 31:30:
“Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God BELONGS to such as these." Mark 10:14 Last edited on Monday April 11th, 2005 01:21 by jamal786
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KANOBI
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Posted: Monday April 11th, 2005 01:29 |
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| I think I have reached a point of refering you back to old answers and old questions you have not answered. It shows you just don't pay attention and follow arguements. From now on I am going to start posting old posts and see how long I can do it until we progress.
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jamal786
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Posted: Monday April 11th, 2005 01:38 |
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KANOBI...
you have done that all along. The same old info from the same old sites. When you cant answer a post, you ignore it and refer back to the same old unauthentic, invalied, incomplete information.
The fact remains that you cannot prove "Original Sin" as a FACT. If you can then do so.
The implication of this failure is that "Eternal Salvation" is therefore irrelevant.
Exactly, if man has freewill, then he has the potential to do wrong. Therefore god knew that Adam had the potential to sin and do wrong, which he did. Man is perfect as he is as god wanted him to be. This included the ability to sin. Therefore, man does not hold any burden for the sins of Adam as mans is the same as Adam with the same potential to sin as Adam. It is illogical to say that man is damned due to Adams sin, as man had the potential to sin whether Adam sinned or not.
Some sin, some do not. This is why it is also illogical for ALL mankind to be punished for Adams sin.
Job did not sin (Job 1:1) as he was perfect, upright and eschewed evil.
Also Melchizedek (Heb. 7:3) is "Like Jesus", and therefore also is sinless.
Also Zechariah and Elizibeth did not sin (Luke 1:5-6). Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly.
Also Mary did not sin. The Angel who delivers God’s message, says that she is full of grace in (Luke 1: 28) "Hail, (MARY) full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women."
What you dont realise is that by the bible alone, the theory of original sin is flawed.
Furthermore, the bible tells that man is not responsible for the sins of others, therefore again, the sins of Adam is irrelevant.
"The son (the progeny of Adam) shall NOT bear the iniquity of the father (Adam)." Ezekiel 18:20
"every man shall receive his OWN reward according to his OWN labour."I Corinthians 3:8
"The fathers shall NOT be put to death for the children, NEITHER shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his OWN sin." Deuteronomy 24:16
"But every one shall die for his OWN iniquity ..." Jeremiah 31:30:
“Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God BELONGS to such as these." Mark 10:14
Futhermore, Another little contradiction on your "original sin theory". If you argue ALL will experiance death due to the sins of Adam. and ALL can ONLY enter heaven by accepting Christ as their Saviour.
This does not account for Enoch and Elijah.
The Bible tells us that Enoch and Elijah did not die.
Genesis 5:24 "Then Enoch walked with God, and he was no longer here, for God took him." NAB
Hebrews 11:5 "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had taken him." RSV
2 Kings 2:11 "And as they still went on and talked, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." RSV
Last edited on Monday April 11th, 2005 01:54 by jamal786
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Posted: Monday April 11th, 2005 01:54 |
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| I think anyone that surfs these forums would see it is you who posts the same old thing! Trust me you are the worst on this site for it!
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KANOBI
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Posted: Monday April 11th, 2005 01:56 |
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