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TheStudent
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Posted: Wednesday April 6th, 2005 22:51 |
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does your heart beat by its own accord?
do you have to ask your lungs to breath?
does your not hair grow by itself?
does your stomach digest your food by itself?
were you even aware that you were growing in your mothers womb?
your body is in a state of ISLAM, It SUBMITS ENTIRELY TO THE WILL OF GOD. it does what GOD TELLS IT without question. you do not have to even THINK about all of the functions that your body must do to live, it just does it. Someone (or something) which SUBMITS TO THE WILL OF GOD is called a MUSLIM.
in the Quran it says that even the stars and the trees prostrate (bow) to Allah alone in submission.
so if even huge and powerful STARS and TREES SUBMIT to Allah and fulfill the purpose that they were made, what is stopping YOU? a mere human who can die from a simple illness or from as little as 2 inches of water?
we have been given intelligence and a soul. we must use our GOD GIVEN intelligence to study Gods signs and find the truth and keep our SOUL on the straight path and pure. the only way to do this is to be in a state of ISLAM. you can't SAY you follow ISLAM you have to 'BE' ISLAM. that is, you have to BE in a state of SUBMISSION TO GODS WILL. It HAS to be your CONCIOUS WAY OF LIFE.
in the Quran it says that the only religion/way of life that will be accepted by God is ISLAM.
and why, after reading this, would you NOT want to say you live in a state of ISLAM?
why would you not want to call yourself MUSLIM?
why would you not want to say you SUBMIT TO GOD?
is He not worthy to be SUBMITTED TO?
and think, why were we put on this earth if not to look after it and earn our place in paradise? what better way is there to do that than by following Gods laws and worshipping Him only?
is the devil not the enemy of man? is the devils ONLY purpose to keep you away from worshipping and SUBMITTING to God or not?
we are born MUSLIM, its ourselves that takes us away from being ina state of ISLAM.
you can call yourself christian, hindu,jew or bhuddist but first you must ACCEPT you were CREATED BY GOD IN A STATE OF ISLAM.
so really, would you not like to call yourself a MUSLIM?Last edited on Wednesday April 6th, 2005 23:01 by TheStudent
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jamal786
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Posted: Thursday April 7th, 2005 02:07 |
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Nice thread!
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TheStudent
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Posted: Thursday April 7th, 2005 06:41 |
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i would like to see a few replies to this.
this, in essence, is what Islam is REALLY about.
being in a state of Islam connects you with the UNIVERSE as a whole and puts you mankind in their correct postion and status within it.
do the plansets and stars not orbit and travel like they have been set out to by Allah?
do animals not live, eat, hunt, reproduce and die like they are supposed to?
does your body not rot after death and become food for worms? do these worms in turn not become food for birds or fertilisation for the earth?
EVERYTHING has its place and purpose. EVERYTHING is made in a state of ISLAM.
now, would you really not like to call yourself a MUSLIM?
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Nasima
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Posted: Thursday April 7th, 2005 08:01 |
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TheStudent wrote: does your heart beat by its own accord?
do you have to ask your lungs to breath?
does your not hair grow by itself?
does your stomach digest your food by itself?
were you even aware that you were growing in your mothers womb?
your body is in a state of ISLAM, It SUBMITS ENTIRELY TO THE WILL OF GOD. it does what GOD TELLS IT without question. you do not have to even THINK about all of the functions that your body must do to live, it just does it. Someone (or something) which SUBMITS TO THE WILL OF GOD is called a MUSLIM.
As a child of God my MIND , BODY , SOUL , is in continuous submission to God . My Body is not in a state of Islam , figuratively speaking . My body remains at a state of Peace becuase of my Love and willingness to surrender to his purpose whatever he wills it for me.
in the Quran it says that even the stars and the trees prostrate (bow) to Allah alone in submission.
so if even huge and powerful STARS and TREES SUBMIT to Allah and fulfill the purpose that they were made, what is stopping YOU? a mere human who can die from a simple illness or from as little as 2 inches of water?
we have been given intelligence and a soul. we must use our GOD GIVEN intelligence to study Gods signs and find the truth and keep our SOUL on the straight path and pure. the only way to do this is to be in a state of ISLAM. you can't SAY you follow ISLAM you have to 'BE' ISLAM. that is, you have to BE in a state of SUBMISSION TO GODS WILL. It HAS to be your CONCIOUS WAY OF LIFE.
This statement is truly commendable the first half in reguards to the use of what God has permitted us to have . It is imperative to study and Understand Gods purpose as well as to find the truth which will definetly maintain us on the right path to fear and understanding of our creator. We must offer our minds and body as a spiritual act of worship unconsiously.
in the Quran it says that the only religion/way of life that will be accepted by God is ISLAM.
and why, after reading this, would you NOT want to say you live in a state of ISLAM?
why would you not want to call yourself MUSLIM?
why would you not want to say you SUBMIT TO GOD?
is He not worthy to be SUBMITTED TO?
and think, why were we put on this earth if not to look after it and earn our place in paradise? what better way is there to do that than by following Gods laws and worshipping Him only?
Paradise my brother cannot be earned . Becuase of God's Grace and Mercy we have the opportunity to be with him in paradise IF we submitt to his teachings and remain steadfast in prayer . The way to paradise is clear (1John 5:1-21).
is the devil not the enemy of man? is the devils ONLY purpose to keep you away from worshipping and SUBMITTING to God or not?
Indeed The Devil is the Master of DECEPTION AND CONFUSION .
we are born MUSLIM, its ourselves that takes us away from being ina state of ISLAM.
We are born Children of God , NOT Muslim . What and How we choose to live our lifes pleasing unto him determines our outcome or state.
you can call yourself christian, hindu,jew or bhuddist but first you must ACCEPT you were CREATED BY GOD IN A STATE OF ISLAM.
I Accept that i have been created by God . Not in the State of Islam . With a choice to follow him and surrend to him only. We don't submitt to the faith that is only one's title of being . God judges the actions , heart , soul of the Man or Women. Not his class of Religion. However there is only one Truth make no mistake.
so really, would you not like to call yourself a MUSLIM?
My Brother iam content, and Humbly Proud to call myself a Christian one committed to following God and his teachings laid before me by his son Jesus Christ and written in his word for all man to follow. As his word ( Bible ) Clearly States the word of GOD is useful for Teaching, Rebuking and Training in Righteousness so that as Christians we may be thoroughly equipped for all good work within our Ministry Discharged to us to those that choose and are COMMITTED in Following . You are in my prayers and i encourage you to have a blessed day .
Nasima.
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Nasima
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Posted: Thursday April 7th, 2005 08:23 |
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@ TheStudent :
Please be as so kind to answer this question for me . In an earlier theard / posting you mentioned that Christians have gone astray correct ? Therefore your implication to that is that's where the need for Islam arouse, to set what was not necessarily incorrect but more or less seen as not being followed through adqueately by Christians to be set on course adequately and Islam was that answer right ? Are we Following my train of thought thus far ? So my question is this , why fix or incorporate a diffrent idealogy with what was made perfect in the begining ? Is the same to be conculded with that arguement that if Islam at some point becomes the dominate religion on the face of the earth and people begin to go astray from that faith , do we purpose to change Islam becuase Muslims aren't following the Koran ? So then why would we do the same with Christianity ? The thought is absurd. I'm most interested in your feedback.
Nasima.
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TheStudent
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Posted: Thursday April 7th, 2005 18:13 |
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nasima,
i know it may be hard for you to describe yourself as 'muslim' as you have a stereotypical view of the word. i know that people 'lock off' when they see or hear 'islam' or 'muslim'
let me put it another way- do you SUBMIT fully to God? do you fullfil the purpose of God of putting us on this earth? that is the purpose of looking after the earth, each other and worshipping Him solely?
if you answer YES then you are in a STATE of SUBMISSION TO THE WILL OF GOD. or simply ISLAM in arabic. you fulfill YOUR PURPOSE. just like animals, plants, rocks, stars each fulfill their purpose.
can you now comprehend that Submission to the will of God, or islam in arabic, is the only religion that is logically correct?
nasima, if you uncomfortable with the WORD islam, then are you comfortable with calling yourself a SUBMITTER?
think, does christianity teach you anything else BUT SUBMISSION? if it does then what is YOUR purpose on earth?
ive always said that there are people who may not call themselves muslim, but actually are.
as regards your other point;
in the Quran it states that in regards to judaism, the jews edited and re-wrote part of their Holy Book, the Torah, for their own personal gain.
now ask yourself: what is the purpose of a prophet? are they not just warners and teachers? if judaism had not become corrupted, what would be the need of ANY prophets after Moses? ask yourself- what was the role of jesus if not to guide the jews back on to the straight path? if they were ALREADY on the straight path, jesus' role would be USELESS. do you see?
so what has happened through the dawn of Islam is simply what has happened from the time of the first prophet, Adam. the people have gradually strayed off of the straight path, and as God loves us, He sends more prophets as warners and teachers. but with islam, the prophet was not a jew or christian. in the quran it is written that a prophet was sent to ALL nations, speaking in their language and knowing their ways. Muhammad was sent to ALL nations as a mercy to guide us and show us HOW to be in a STATE OF SUBMISION.
Muhammad has made prophecies that Jesus will return as a muslim, after which everyone will be muslim. he will create a peaceful 'heaven' on earth.
also he predicted a great war which the proof of we can see now. very soon the world will be DIVIDED into muslim and non-muslim. these are the 2 great sides. i have read the by 2055 50% of the worlds population will be muslim, the source was a UN website.
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TheStudent
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Posted: Thursday April 7th, 2005 18:15 |
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As a child of God my MIND , BODY , SOUL , is in continuous submission to God . My Body is not in a state of Islam , figuratively speaking . My body remains at a state of Peace becuase of my Love and willingness to surrender to his purpose whatever he wills it for me.
------
look what you have written here - As a child of God my MIND , BODY , SOUL , is in continuous submission to God .-
what is the arabic for 'continous submission to God'?
the answer is ISLAM.
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TheStudent
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Posted: Thursday April 7th, 2005 19:54 |
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| all must read and understand- SUBMISSION TO THE WILL OF GOD is the essence of a Muslims belief
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jaziasha
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Posted: Thursday April 7th, 2005 20:45 |
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TheStudent wrote: all must read and understand- SUBMISSION TO THE WILL OF GOD is the essence of a Muslims belief
That is not true. To say this would be to say that the world only stated to worship Yahweh after Mohammed. That is when he said Allah gave Islam as our religion according to the Quran (This may or may not be a correct Quote). So what did we believe before that. The bible says in Berish*th 4:26 that men began to call upon the name of Yahweh. It didn't say god because god is not a name and Allah mean the one god or is this not correct?
So Abraham was not a Muslim according to the Quran. Mohammed was told to make Islam his religion after or before Abraham? This is only a ?.
If Yahweh was the Elohim of the Israelites who were Hebrew tell me when the hebrews became arabs and Yahweh became Allah or the god of these people. When did the arabs become the chosen people? When did YHWH become a hybrid name or when did the Hebrews who had his name in there mouth call him Allah(arabic) when you say that Allah is not a name. Why would they not call him Yahweh as they were told from the start?
Answer me those?!!
Shalom
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KANOBI
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Posted: Thursday April 7th, 2005 23:32 |
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| We are born in submission to our stomachs
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One Zero Seven
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Posted: Friday April 8th, 2005 01:10 |
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3:64 O People of the Book, why do you dispute about Abraham, when the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? Do you not understand?
65 Behold! You are they who disputed about that of which you had knowledge; why then do you dispute about that of which you have no knowledge? And Allah knows while you know not.
66 Abraham was not a Jew nor a Christian, but he was (an) upright (man), a Muslim; and he was not one of the polytheists.
67 The nearest of people to Abraham are surely those who follow him and this Prophet and those who believe. And Allah is the Friend of the believers.
6:162 Say: As for me, my Lord has guided me to the right path -- a right religion, the faith of Abraham, the upright one, and he was not of the polytheists.
22:78 And strive hard for Allah with due striving. He has chosen you and has not laid upon you any hardship in religion -- the faith of your father Abraham. He named you Muslims before and in this, that the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you, and you may be bearers of witness to the people; so keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and hold fast to Allah. He is your Protector -- excellent the Protector and excellent the Helper!
30:30 So set your face for religion, being upright, the nature made by Allah in which He has created men. There is no altering Allah's creation. That is the right religion -- but most people know not --
31 Turning to Him; and keep your duty to Him, and keep up prayer and be not of the polytheists,
=========================================================
Now, without some of the "culture specific" terms...
3:64 O People of the Book, why do you dispute about Abraham, when the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? Do you not understand?
65 Behold! You are they who disputed about that of which you had knowledge; why then do you dispute about that of which you have no knowledge? And (the One True God) knows while you know not.
66 Abraham was not a Jew nor a Christian, but he was (an) upright (man), a (submitter to the One True God); and he was not one of the polytheists.
67 The nearest of people to Abraham are surely those who follow him and this Prophet and those who believe. And (the One True God) is the Friend of the believers.
6:162 Say: As for me, my Lord has guided me to the right path -- a right religion, the faith of Abraham, the upright one, and he was not of the polytheists.
22:78 And strive hard for (the One True God) with due striving. He has chosen you and has not laid upon you any hardship in religion -- the faith of your father Abraham. He named you (submitters to the One True God) before and in this, that the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you, and you may be bearers of witness to the people; so keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and hold fast to (the One True God). He is your Protector -- excellent the Protector and excellent the Helper!
30:30 So set your face for religion, being upright, the nature made by (the One True God) in which He has created men. There is no altering (the One True God's) creation. That is the right religion -- but most people know not --
31 Turning to Him; and keep your duty to Him, and keep up prayer and be not of the polytheists,
From these verses, we can see that although the TERM "ISLAM" may not have been used among the former prophets, the ESSENCE of what Islam IS has been in existence since the creation of man...and before.
RM
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TheStudent
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Posted: Friday April 8th, 2005 05:49 |
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kanobi,
'We are born in submission to our stomachs'- kanobi, so you submit to your stomach!! is your stomach your god!! is it your stomach you worship or God who created your stomach? have you never fasted before? if you have then you will know that the stomach is something you can conquer.
jaziasha,
youre a HUMAN BEING right? HUMAN is your 'physical' description.
you dont have to name yourself HUMAN you just ARE. you cant help BEING one.
now ISLAM is the same. once you accpet your place and position and PURPOSE in the universe , you become more than just a Human Being, you move into a state of 'ISLAM BEING'. True SUBMITTERS TO GOD, or in Arabic, MUSLIMS cant help but BEING ISLAM.
in the Quran it says that Muhammad didnt teach anything new (in regards to the nature of man and God) that Abraham didnt teach. Our relationship with God has stayed constant since Adam - . The Quran says that ALL prophets were MUSLIMS- THEY SUBMITTED TO THE WILL OF GOD.
now let me ask you something- What did Moses call his religion? it definetly wasnt Judaism. so what was it called?
first of all the bible you are reading from has become corrupted. you can read my other posts to find out why this is true. to understand this you must accept your relationship with God- do you accept that you were created in a STATE OF SUBMISSION TO GOD, or in arabic a MUSLIM? do you accept that, LOGICALLY, BEING in a STATE of ISLAM/SUBMISSION can be the ONLY true, PURE way to God, by SUBMITING TO HIM ENTIRELY? if you cant accept this, then REALLY, what are you submitting to?
i will answer your other questions, but you must answer this first please.Last edited on Friday April 8th, 2005 05:52 by TheStudent
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jaziasha
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Posted: Friday April 8th, 2005 13:47 |
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TheStudent wrote: kanobi,
'We are born in submission to our stomachs'- kanobi, so you submit to your stomach!! is your stomach your god!! is it your stomach you worship or God who created your stomach? have you never fasted before? if you have then you will know that the stomach is something you can conquer.
jaziasha,
youre a HUMAN BEING right? HUMAN is your 'physical' description.
you dont have to name yourself HUMAN you just ARE. you cant help BEING one.
now ISLAM is the same. once you accpet your place and position and PURPOSE in the universe , you become more than just a Human Being, you move into a state of 'ISLAM BEING'. True SUBMITTERS TO GOD, or in Arabic, MUSLIMS cant help but BEING ISLAM.
in the Quran it says that Muhammad didnt teach anything new (in regards to the nature of man and God) that Abraham didnt teach. Our relationship with God has stayed constant since Adam - . The Quran says that ALL prophets were MUSLIMS- THEY SUBMITTED TO THE WILL OF GOD.
now let me ask you something- What did Moses call his religion? it definetly wasnt Judaism. so what was it called?
first of all the bible you are reading from has become corrupted. you can read my other posts to find out why this is true. to understand this you must accept your relationship with God- do you accept that you were created in a STATE OF SUBMISSION TO GOD, or in arabic a MUSLIM? do you accept that, LOGICALLY, BEING in a STATE of ISLAM/SUBMISSION can be the ONLY true, PURE way to God, by SUBMITING TO HIM ENTIRELY? if you cant accept this, then REALLY, what are you submitting to?
i will answer your other questions, but you must answer this first please.
Once again you did not answer my question instead you posed another question.
I know that Mosheah had no name for what he believed, he did not have a religion he only belived in the truth of Yahweh. They didn't call that anything. Like I said before religion is something we came up with much later to be recognize as being apart of something. When Yahshua lived they didn't call what they belived christianity because he was called the Mashiah not the christos.
When people way back in the day worshiped ashtoreth they didn't call themselves Ashtorethians, they would say he/she worships ashtoreth or he/she worships in the groves.
You may say the Bible I read may have been tampered with but the truth cannot be becuase it just is. The Quran was not not always one book there were many different versions before they all were destroyed, is this not true? I have learned to study in the Hebrew and the greek so as to get the truest meaning of the scriptures and with the guidance of the Ruach Ha Kodesh the truth will be revealed.
?
If I were in an undiscovered land and spoke an unknow language, but understood that Yahweh was the creator of all things and that I should will my will to do his would I call that Islam? No because I am not Arabic. Chinese people that submit to the will of Yahweh do they call that Islam no, because they are not Arabic.
You said that Allah is not a name and if that is true then it should be translated and in another language to call upon the one god would not mean to call upon Allah. Yahweh on the other hand is a name and should not be translated but transliterated so as to keep the name intact so that the meaning does not change. So one could call upon the name of Yahweh in any language.
Can I get an answer to my first ?s please!
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One Zero Seven
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Posted: Friday April 8th, 2005 15:26 |
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Salaam...
If we trip over every crack in the sidewalk, it will be a long time before we get to where we want to be.
Let's not get caught up so much on "culture-specific" words. Let's try to focus on the IDEAS that the words are intended to convey. It will make our Journey a lot more productive.
RM
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jamal786
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Posted: Friday April 8th, 2005 15:30 |
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""Please be as so kind to answer this question for me . In an earlier theard / posting you mentioned that Christians have gone astray correct ? Therefore your implication to that is that's where the need for Islam arouse, to set what was not necessarily incorrect but more or less seen as not being followed through adqueately by Christians to be set on course adequately and Islam was that answer right ? Are we Following my train of thought thus far ? So my question is this , why fix or incorporate a diffrent idealogy with what was made perfect in the begining ? Is the same to be conculded with that arguement that if Islam at some point becomes the dominate religion on the face of the earth and people begin to go astray from that faith , do we purpose to change Islam becuase Muslims aren't following the Koran ? So then why would we do the same with Christianity ? The thought is absurd. I'm most interested in your feedback.""Nasima.
Yes the laws of Moses and Word of Jesus was "perfect" to begin with, therefore the religion that came from it was "perfect" to begin with. However, these "religions" were much different from the religions of christianity and judaism today. In fact moses and Jesus did not even call these religions Juadism and Christianity, or promote many of the beliefs and behaviours presented in these religions today. Much of the original scriptures and teachings are therefore lost, and the consequent holy books and religions have encountered countless changes and additions. Therefore it is impossible for members of these religion (who may or may not have gone astray) to go back to following their religion in its original form. For this reason, this "religion of god" needed to be re-expressed in a new form which was Islam. Islam does not claim to be a new religion, but a re-expression of the religion of god.
However, whereas I make no claim that there are not muslims that have also "gone astray". The fact remains that the foundation of Islam which is the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet, remain the same as they did in their original forms. Therefore, Muslims can always refer to the original foundation and form of their religion which is perfect. The five pillars of Islam have remain the same since the revelation, and will stay the same for all time.
The True Religion
By Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips
http://www.islamworld.net/true.html
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jaziasha
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Posted: Friday April 8th, 2005 15:32 |
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One Zero Seven wrote: Salaam...
If we trip over every crack in the sidewalk, it will be a long time before we get to where we want to be.
Let's not get caught up so much on "culture-specific" words. Let's try to focus on the IDEAS that the words are intended to convey. It will make our Journey a lot more productive.
RM
But you are fine with these socalled "culture-specific" words when they represent the culture you project. The IDEAS should be "truth" and the truth is words matter and so do names.
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Posted: Friday April 8th, 2005 15:58 |
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With reference to the discussion on the name of Allah:
Allah is an Arabic word that doesn't simply mean "god" but "The God".
Al=The ilah=God
A more accurate translation of the word "Allah" into English might be "The One -and-Only God" or "The One True God".
More importantly, it should also be noted that the Arabic word "Allah" contains a deep religious message due to its root meaning and origin. This is because it stems from the Arabic verb ta'Allaha (or alaha), which means "to be worshipped". Thus in Arabic, the word "Allah" means "The One who deserves all worship". This, in a nutshell, is the Pure Monotheistic message of Islam.
Surah 112. The Unity, Sincerity, Oneness Of Allah
Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him.
Surah 59:22-24. Exile, Banishment
Allah is He, than Whom there is no other god;- Who knows (all things) both secret and open; He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Allah is He, than Whom there is no other god;- the Sovereign, the Holy One, the Source of Peace (and Perfection), the Guardian of Faith, the Preserver of Safety, the Exalted in Might, the Irresistible, the Supreme: Glory to Allah. (High is He) above the partners they attribute to Him.
He is Allah, the Creator, the Evolver, the Bestower of Forms (or Colours). To Him belong the Most Beautiful Names: whatever is in the heavens and on earth, doth declare His Praises and Glory: and He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.
Quran 59:24 "He is Allah, the Creator, the Originator, The Fashioner, to Him belong the most beautiful names: whatever is in the heavens and on earth, do declare His praises and glory. And He is the Exalted in Might, The Wise."
Quran 7:180"The most beautiful names belong to God: so call on Him by them;..."
WHAT IS HIS NAME?
http://jamaat.net/name/nameintro.htm
With reference to the discussion on the compilation of the Quran:
The Qur'an means the revelation or the message, of which there was only one. In its complete form it was recorded in writing, and in the minds of believers though recitation.
This thread has a complete discussion of this issue http://www.blackchat.co.uk/theblackforum/forum26/10504.html
Alternatively you could browse this site for the answers provided by a very good scholar
http://www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm
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One Zero Seven
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Posted: Friday April 8th, 2005 17:37 |
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jaziasha wrote: One Zero Seven wrote: Salaam... If we trip over every crack in the sidewalk, it will be a long time before we get to where we want to be.
Let's not get caught up so much on "culture-specific" words. Let's try to focus on the IDEAS that the words are intended to convey. It will make our Journey a lot more productive.
RM
But you are fine with these socalled "culture-specific" words when they represent the culture you project. The IDEAS should be "truth" and the truth is words matter and so do names.
jaz...
I am comfortable with ANY culture specific words as long as they are not used to foster DISUNITY and DIVISION among people who ALL claim to believe in the One True God. But when CHILDREN can't seem to see past the branches to the ROOT, then SOMEONE has to help them see that all the Branches spring from the same root, and hopefully do away with needless bickering.
Example:
Dios = the One True God
Yahweh (YHWH) = the One True God
Allah = the One True God
Ngai = the One True God
In this case, If four persons speaking the above four languages - Spanish, Hebrew, Arabic, Swahili - got together and started talking about the "one true God", if they cannot see past their own limited experiences, they would no doubt start arguing amongst each other. But someone who speaks all four languages can come among them and say, "Hey, wait a minute, guys...you don't have to argue over this. You are all talking about the SAME THING...you just need to LEARN EACH OTHER's LANGUAGES a little better."
Try to focus on the Truth of what I said...not on me. It aint personal.
RM
Last edited on Friday April 8th, 2005 17:54 by One Zero Seven
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Posted: Friday April 8th, 2005 18:26 |
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One Zero Seven wrote: jaziasha wrote: One Zero Seven wrote: Salaam... If we trip over every crack in the sidewalk, it will be a long time before we get to where we want to be.
Let's not get caught up so much on "culture-specific" words. Let's try to focus on the IDEAS that the words are intended to convey. It will make our Journey a lot more productive.
RM
But you are fine with these socalled "culture-specific" words when they represent the culture you project. The IDEAS should be "truth" and the truth is words matter and so do names.
jaz...
I am comfortable with ANY culture specific words as long as they are not used to foster DISUNITY and DIVISION among people who ALL claim to believe in the One True God. But when CHILDREN can't seem to see past the branches to the ROOT, then SOMEONE has to help them see that all the Branches spring from the same root, and hopefully do away with needless bickering.
Example:
Dios = the One True God
Yahweh (YHWH) = the One True God
Allah = the One True God
Ngai = the One True God
In this case, If four persons speaking the above four languages - Spanish, Hebrew, Arabic, Swahili - got together and started talking about the "one true God", if they cannot see past their own limited experiences, they would no doubt start arguing amongst each other. But someone who speaks all four languages can come among them and say, "Hey, wait a minute, guys...you don't have to argue over this. You are all talking about the SAME THING...you just need to LEARN EACH OTHER's LANGUAGES a little better."
Try to focus on the Truth of what I said...not on me. It aint personal.
RM
Brother 170,
It is never personal with me it's about learning and acquiring knowledge. I understand what you are saying but you don't understand me. I know of the difference in languages but when it comes to names they are to also be treated differently. Yahweh is or should be the same in every language as all names should be to preserve the meaning of that name. Dios, Allah, and Ngai, are not names or are they?
It seams as if you are telling me that we all should adopt Allah as the universal name for the one true god, that is if Allah is a name. But I have seen on this site before where some Muslims say that Allah is not a name only a word that means the one true god.
Words differ in other languages but your name should not. Can we agree on that.
And Yahweh does not mean the one true god it means The Self existing one or He who causes to exitst. He is not a god but the creator of gods.
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Posted: Friday April 8th, 2005 18:31 |
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jaz,
this thread was never about Arabic or if the Quran or bible is this or that. i do not want to stray from the original point. if you would like to find out about the origins of the Quran and its 'different versions' i can point you in the right direction to find the logical truth. and just because you have no record of what Moses called his faith, doesnt mean he didnt have a name for it.
BUT
this thread is about your NATURE.
answer me this please:
Do YOU submit to the will of God? Do YOU fulfill the purpose you were created for?
now if you say 'yes' you must understand that one who 'submits to the will of God' is called, in arabic, a 'Muslim'. it is a simple translation. just like 'pantalon' means trousers in arabic, or 'hammam' means bath.
the fact is no matter what language you say it in, it MEANS the same.
the point i was making is that the WHOLE UNIVERSE and EVERYTHING in it 'submits to the will of God'. this is such an obvious fact and if you reread my first posts i have given further examples.
now on understanding this point, why do you have any hestitation about calling yourself 'Muslim'? is 'Allah' a problem for you? if it is just remember that it means ' The One True God' in english. i will call 'The One True God' Allah/Yahweh/God or in what ever language as long as the meaning is the same as 'The One True God' - i see no differention. A ROSE is still a ROSE no matter what you call it.
just like 107 said, 'focus on the ideas' not the language.
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Posted: Friday April 8th, 2005 18:35 |
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He is not a god but the creator of gods
------
WHAT is that supposed to mean?? this kind of statement i can understad to be metaphorical but HOW? you NEED to explain this one!
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Posted: Friday April 8th, 2005 18:53 |
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TheStudent wrote: jaz,
this thread was never about Arabic or if the Quran or bible is this or that. i do not want to stray from the original point. if you would like to find out about the origins of the Quran and its 'different versions' i can point you in the right direction to find the logical truth. and just because you have no record of what Moses called his faith, doesnt mean he didnt have a name for it.
BUT
this thread is about your NATURE.
answer me this please:
Do YOU submit to the will of God? Do YOU fulfill the purpose you were created for?
now if you say 'yes' you must understand that one who 'submits to the will of God' is called, in arabic, a 'Muslim'. it is a simple translation. just like 'pantalon' means trousers in arabic, or 'hammam' means bath.
the fact is no matter what language you say it in, it MEANS the same.
the point i was making is that the WHOLE UNIVERSE and EVERYTHING in it 'submits to the will of God'. this is such an obvious fact and if you reread my first posts i have given further examples.
now on understanding this point, why do you have any hestitation about calling yourself 'Muslim'? is 'Allah' a problem for you? if it is just remember that it means ' The One True God' in english. i will call 'The One True God' Allah/Yahweh/God or in what ever language as long as the meaning is the same as 'The One True God' - i see no differention. A ROSE is still a ROSE no matter what you call it.
just like 107 said, 'focus on the ideas' not the language.
I never strayed off the topic it says "Understanding Islam 2" and I am trying to understand how you can make everybody who submits to the will of the creator a Muslim in arabic.
Student you are trying to get me to do somethng that you would never do, and that is call the creator Yahweh when your RELIGION forbids it.
Do I have a problem calling myself a Muslim? Do you have a problem not belonging or being different?......Is Yahweh a problem for you?
Just like I said focus on the truth not the IDEAS or the language.
And my questions still have not been answered.
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Posted: Friday April 8th, 2005 18:58 |
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you must have rushed through my post - reread here;
" i will call 'The One True God' Allah/Yahweh/God or in what ever language as long as the meaning is the same as 'The One True God' - i see no differention. A ROSE is still a ROSE no matter what you call it"
i value MEANING.
now, is the MEANING and IDEA of what ISLAM and MUSLIM means a problem for you?
sorry, which question did you pose?
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Posted: Friday April 8th, 2005 19:15 |
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TheStudent wrote: you must have rushed through my post - reread here;
" i will call 'The One True God' Allah/Yahweh/God or in what ever language as long as the meaning is the same as 'The One True God' - i see no differention. A ROSE is still a ROSE no matter what you call it"
i value MEANING.
now, is the MEANING and IDEA of what ISLAM and MUSLIM means a problem for you?
sorry, which question did you pose?
No I didn't rush through your post. You are telling me that Islam will allow you to call the creator Yahweh instead of Allah?
Still you seam to think that I have a problem with Islam but I don't, but I have no religion so do you have a problem with my belief and faith in Yahweh. Must I belong to something to be understood?
And here are my ?s
If Yahweh was the Elohim of the Israelites who were Hebrew tell me when the hebrews became arabs and Yahweh became Allah or the god of these people. When did the arabs become the chosen people? When did YHWH become a hybrid name or when did the Hebrews who had his name in there mouth call him Allah(arabic) when you say that Allah is not a name. Why would they not call him Yahweh as they were told from the start?
You said that Allah is not a name and if that is true then it should be translated and in another language to call upon the one god would not mean to call upon Allah. Yahweh on the other hand is a name and should not be translated but transliterated so as to keep the name intact so that the meaning does not change. So one could call upon the name of Yahweh in any language.
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Posted: Friday April 8th, 2005 19:36 |
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we're deviating from the original point, but:
-------
If Yahweh was the Elohim of the Israelites who were Hebrew tell me when the hebrews became arabs and Yahweh became Allah or the god of these people. When did the arabs become the chosen people? When did YHWH become a hybrid name or when did the Hebrews who had his name in there mouth call him Allah(arabic) when you say that Allah is not a name. Why would they not call him Yahweh as they were told from the start?
You said that Allah is not a name and if that is true then it should be translated and in another language to call upon the one god would not mean to call upon Allah. Yahweh on the other hand is a name and should not be translated but transliterated so as to keep the name intact so that the meaning does not change. So one could call upon the name of Yahweh in any language.
-------
jaz,
you are taking what is written in the old testament as 100% facts. this is a mistake. IF the old testament and ulitmatly Judaism was 100% correct, what purpose did Jesus serve? all that you have written above are inacuraccies caused by the corrupt hands of the rabbis of the time. once again - if Judaism was correct , what purpose did jesus serve? and if christianity was correct - what purpose did Muhammad,pbuh, serve? do you see?
nowhere in Quran or hadith is anything that implies that Arabs were or are the 'chosen people'. Islam is for ALL people. Muhammed made a special point of expressing the UNIVERSAL appeal of Islam. the fact is. for a LONG time the people of isreal were especially blessed by Allah. but due to their deviation and ill treatment of the prophets sent to them (just look how they treated jesus!!) they , in the words of the Quran, 'Earned Gods Anger'. and rightly so.
BUT God did favour Abraham. remember it was Abraham who built the Kaaba in mecca and it was his son Ishmael who taught the arabs the ways and practices of his fathers religion. the arabs had been Muslims LONG before muhammed. but they too had deviated from the truth and needed a new prophet to re-teach them.
the Quran gives 99 'names' of God, 'Allah' being the greatest and most important. These names are really 'attributes'- they are descriptions of Him, it is through these 99 'names' that we can learn about Gods 'nature'
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Posted: Friday April 8th, 2005 22:59 |
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jaziasha wrote: It seams as if you are telling me that we all should adopt Allah as the universal name for the one true god, that is if Allah is a name.
You are injecting your own assumptions into what I said:
"I am comfortable with ANY culture specific words as long as they are not used to foster DISUNITY and DIVISION among people who ALL claim to believe in the One True God. But when CHILDREN can't seem to see past the branches to the ROOT, then SOMEONE has to help them see that all the Branches spring from the same root, and hopefully do away with needless bickering."
I have no problem at all with you using YHWH as the "Name" of the Supreme Being, because I UNDERSTAND what you MEAN...know't I mean? 
RM
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Posted: Friday April 8th, 2005 23:20 |
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THE "TETRAGRAMMATON"
Where is the word Jehovah from? "From the Holy Bible?" What does it say? Does it spell out the word J-e-h-o-v-a-h? "No," "There is a 'tetragrammaton' in the Bible from which the word Jehovah is derived." What is a tetragrammaton?
What does the word tetragrammaton mean?". "Tetra," in Greek means FOUR, and "grammaton," means LETTERS. It simply means "a four letter word."
Can you read into Y H W H the word Jehovah? I cannot. "we taught to add vowels to these four consonents to produce the sound. Originally, both Hebrew and Arabic were written without the vowel signs The native of each language was able to read if even without those vowels. Not to the outsider, for whose benefit the vowels were invented.
Let us add the vowels. YHWH becomes YeHoWaH. Juggle as you like but you can never materialise Jehovah!
The letters Y H W H occur in the Hebrew (Jewish) Scriptures 6823 times, boasts the Jehovah's Witness, and it occurs in combination with the word "Elohim;" 156 times in the booklet called Genesis alone. This combination YHWH/ELOHIM has been consistently translated in the English Bible as "Lord God," "Lord God," Lord God,"
What is YHWH; and what is ELOHIM? Since the lews did not articulate the word YHWH for centuries, and since even the Chief Rabbis would not allow the ineffable to be heard, they have forfeited the right to claim dogmatically how the word is to be sounded. We have to seek the aid of the Arab to revive Hebrew, a language which had once died out. In every linguistic difficulty recourse has to be made to Arabic, a sister language, which has remained alive and viable. Racially and linguistically, the Arabs and the Jews have a common origin, going back to Father Abraham.
YHWH or Yehova or Yahuwa all mean the very same thing. "Ya" is a vocative and an exclamatory particle in both Hebrew and Arabic, meaning Oh! And "Huwa" or "Hu" means He, again in both Hebrew and Arabic. Together they mean Oh He! So instead of YHWH ELOHIM, we now have Oh He! ELOHIM.
..based on this, i have to agree, meaning is very important!
From: Whats His Name?
http://jamaat.net/name/name.htmlLast edited on Friday April 8th, 2005 23:21 by jamal786
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Posted: Saturday April 9th, 2005 10:56 |
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jaz,
think of ISLAM as the 'taste' of honey. i can write a million words on what it tastes like but if you dont EXPERIENCE it for yourself, you will NEVER REALLY know what it is like. but the first step to tasting honey is to know that honey is good for you and MANY people like its taste.
i can write about Islam in hundreds of different languages , what is important is that you UNDERSTAND the meaning of what i am writing.
my point is, it DOSENT MATTER which words you use to explain or call Islam or Allah, as long as the MEANING is conveyed correctly.
jaz i have a very simple question for you which requires just a yes or no answer-
Do YOU submit completelly to the will of God?
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Posted: Saturday April 9th, 2005 16:44 |
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jamal786 wrote: ""Please be as so kind to answer this question for me . In an earlier theard / posting you mentioned that Christians have gone astray correct ? Therefore your implication to that is that's where the need for Islam arouse, to set what was not necessarily incorrect but more or less seen as not being followed through adqueately by Christians to be set on course adequately and Islam was that answer right ? Are we Following my train of thought thus far ? So my question is this , why fix or incorporate a diffrent idealogy with what was made perfect in the begining ? Is the same to be conculded with that arguement that if Islam at some point becomes the dominate religion on the face of the earth and people begin to go astray from that faith , do we purpose to change Islam becuase Muslims aren't following the Koran ? So then why would we do the same with Christianity ? The thought is absurd. I'm most interested in your feedback.""Nasima.
Yes the laws of Moses and Word of Jesus was "perfect" to begin with, therefore the religion that came from it was "perfect" to begin with. However, these "religions" were much different from the religions of christianity and judaism today. In fact moses and Jesus did not even call these religions Juadism and Christianity, or promote many of the beliefs and behaviours presented in these religions today. Much of the original scriptures and teachings are therefore lost, and the consequent holy books and religions have encountered countless changes and additions. Therefore it is impossible for members of these religion (who may or may not have gone astray) to go back to following their religion in its original form. For this reason, this "religion of god" needed to be re-expressed in a new form which was Islam. Islam does not claim to be a new religion, but a re-expression of the religion of god.
However, whereas I make no claim that there are not muslims that have also "gone astray". The fact remains that the foundation of Islam which is the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet, remain the same as they did in their original forms. Therefore, Muslims can always refer to the original foundation and form of their religion which is perfect. The five pillars of Islam have remain the same since the revelation, and will stay the same for all time.
The True Religion
By Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips
http://www.islamworld.net/true.html
@ Jamal ,
Wonderful Explaintion and clarification for me and well appreicated ! So therefore Christianity as it was intially introduced was and is Perfect . It's Man that has changed or saught to change the Word Of God and it's teachings to suit their own evil desires. But What i want to emphasize is that Gods Law is Perfect Man is Imperfect . Even if they take the Law and attempt to change it they shall have to answer to God , that i worry not about , my concern and focus is following God and the teachings of his son Jesus Christ . There can be no changing what is Made Perfect by God NO MATTER how the centuries have changed or whether one chooses to interpet the Word falsely. However i thank you Jamal for your response.
Nasima.
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Posted: Saturday April 9th, 2005 17:05 |
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Salaam (Peace) to all...
It should be noted that the doctrine of "Sonship" was established three hundred years AFTER the death of Jesus - the Nicene Council, 325 A.D.
Even the Bible, if read carefully, bears witness that Jesus had an earthly father.
God Willing, I will post some examples later.
RM
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Posted: Saturday April 9th, 2005 17:09 |
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It's imperitive to understand the same fate that awaited the Christians in the earlier centuries await us as Christians today if we make the choices that we make that are not in accordance with the will of GOD !
And no matter what your Religion of choice whether Jew, Christian or Muslim the same fate awaits ALL who don't adhere to God / Allah .
@TheStudent ,
1. There's a clear distinction between "State of Being" and actually the application of one's faith (made active ) . The Road to Hell is paved with good intentions but there is only one truth . Some may feel there's many ways to get to the top of that moutain figurtively speaking but there's only one way to follow GOD in true righteousness. Many prohets have and come and gone attempting to guide/warn people to the truth , the presence of those prohets has not changed peoples actions , however what has been revealed to them by God was for a set purpose, it needed to be prohpesied so that the plans of God may be revealed and fulfilled to all Nations . God knew forehand that there would be those who would follow and those that would go astray PERIOD that doesn't change the outcome no matter who comes after Christ and his teachings .
2. On a Personal Note I once studied the Sunni ways with a sista in the Masjid where i live, so i do have more background than you think my brother. But iam not closed off iam always open to hear and learn , as we should always be when growing in our faith and understanding of God. BUT I FRIMLY BELIEVE THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUTH.
Have a Blessed Day , my brother .
Nasima.
Nasima.
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Posted: Saturday April 9th, 2005 19:11 |
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'nasima' means 'gentle breeze' in arabic
i think we have strayed again off of the topic.
My point was that the WHOLE universe was created in a state of submission to the will of God, or in arabic, ISLAM. do you agree to this?
all i want you to recognise is that, initially, you too were made in a state of ISLAM. it is only through external influences that takes us away from ISLAM.
do you also agree with this?
so on understanding the state of the universe and the state YOU were created in, would you agree that SUBMISSION TO THE WILL OF GOD, or simply ISLAM is the ONLY way of life acceptable to God?
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KANOBI
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Posted: Saturday April 9th, 2005 19:15 |
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TheStudent wrote:
'nasima' means 'gentle breeze' in arabic
i think we have strayed again off of the topic.
My point was that the WHOLE universe was created in a state of submission to the will of God, or in arabic, ISLAM. do you agree to this?
all i want you to recognise is that, initially, you too were made in a state of ISLAM. it is only through external influences that takes us away from ISLAM.
do you also agree with this?
so on understanding the state of the universe and the state YOU were created in, would you agree that SUBMISSION TO THE WILL OF GOD, or simply ISLAM is the ONLY way of life acceptable to God?
Was the will of all Gods beings in submission to God?
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TheStudent
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Posted: Saturday April 9th, 2005 19:21 |
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Was the will of all Gods beings in submission to God?
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my opinion doesnt matter, what do you think?
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jamal786
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Posted: Saturday April 9th, 2005 19:22 |
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| Every living thing submits to gods laws at some point. Those that have freewill can choose either compliance or non-compliance with submission.
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KANOBI
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Posted: Saturday April 9th, 2005 19:49 |
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| When tested many failed. When the angels sinned they had no salvation. God requires perfect submission and does not accept anyone that comes short.
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TheStudent
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Posted: Saturday April 9th, 2005 20:01 |
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kanobi,
so do you accept that you were created in a state of submission to the will of God?
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KANOBI
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Posted: Saturday April 9th, 2005 20:19 |
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| We are all subject to the Laws god has created but a humans will when born is in submission to their stomach and their comfort.
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TheStudent
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Posted: Saturday April 9th, 2005 20:28 |
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We are all subject to the Laws god has created
you have just accepted that ISLAM was the initial state of your creation. this is the first step to understanding the mission and purpose of Muhammed,pbuh.
but a humans will when born is in submission to their stomach and their comfort
maybe so in a sense, but who is it that CREATED your stomach? who is it that gave you means to reach comfort? so really, who is it that you SUBMIT to?
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KANOBI
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Posted: Saturday April 9th, 2005 20:51 |
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Submission to our carnal desires is in conflict with submission to God.
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