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Aneki
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Posted: Wednesday November 17th, 2004 01:21 |
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Please be VERY careful!!!
This is serious and to be sent to any female that you no!!!!
How bad is this???
A woman at a nightclub on Saturday night was taken by 5 men,
who according to hospital and police reports, gang raped her before dumping her.Unable to remember the events of the evening, tests later confirmed the repeat rapes along with traces of rhino in her blood, Progesterex, that is an essentially a small sterilization pill. The drug is now being used by rapists at parties to rape AND sterilize their victims. Progesterex is available to vets to sterilize large animals. Rumor has it that the Progesterex is being used together with Rhino, the date rape drug. As with Rhino, all they have to do is drop it into the girl's drink. The girl can't remember a thing the next morning, of all that had taken place the night before.
Progesterex, which dissolves in drinks just as easily, is such that the victim doesn't conceive from the rape and the rapist needn't Worry about having a paternity test identifying him months later. The drug's effects ARE NOT TEMPORARY-
They are P*E*R*M*A*N*E*N*T !!!
Progesterex was designed to sterilize horses. Any female who
takes it WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO CONCEIVE. The weasels can get this drug from anyone who is in the vet school or any university. It's that easy and Progesterex is about to break out big on campuses everywhere. Believe it or not, there are even sites on the Internet telling people how to use it. Please
forward this to everyone you know, especially girls. Be careful when you're out and don't leave your drink unattended. Please make the effort to forward this on to all you know... Guys, please inform all your female friends and relatives.
PLEASE PASS THIS ON!!!!
Thoughts and feeling people???????!!!!!!!!
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Peacemaker
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Posted: Wednesday November 17th, 2004 06:11 |
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Not much. Always something new to scare people these days.
Solution don't drink, don't goto clubs.
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free
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Posted: Wednesday November 17th, 2004 07:59 |
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actually stop passing this on...as it is not true it is an internet hoax...
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the soul machine
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Posted: Saturday November 20th, 2004 14:04 |
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well drugs or not, every female is ressponsible for her actions dont go screaming rape when you acted like a whore.
like pm said dont drink.
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free
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Posted: Saturday November 20th, 2004 14:24 |
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the soul machine wrote: well drugs or not, every female is ressponsible for her actions dont go screaming rape when you acted like a whore.
like pm said dont drink.
Soul Machine...personally knowing two people who have been raped it is not as cut an dried as the person having 'acted like a whore'. I'd love for you to go into and A & E or Rape crisis center when someone has been subjected to a horrific attack and give them this reasoning.
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the soul machine
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Posted: Saturday November 20th, 2004 14:35 |
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free wrote: the soul machine wrote: well drugs or not, every female is ressponsible for her actions dont go screaming rape when you acted like a whore.
like pm said dont drink.
Soul Machine...personally knowing two people who have been raped it is not as cut an dried as the person having 'acted like a whore'. I'd love for you to go into and A & E or Rape crisis center when someone has been subjected to a horrific attack and give them this reasoning.
well my bad,i should stated-( execpt in exceptional circumstances). still many women cry rape when they feel their body has been degraded , but still many act whorish and allow themselves to be used like meat. where i work 4 rape cases has been brought out of which police later found none was true.
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Fredblack
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Posted: Saturday November 20th, 2004 14:40 |
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@Soulmachine. Have to disagree even though my spirit tells me your words and sentiments are slightly out of sync. No man has a right to rape a woman. Simple as..Period.....
Never heard an argument which could stand on such a basis. Acting foolish or placing yourself at risk in the worse case, and I am not talking about normal rapes by the way, is one thing. No relationship to a woman bringing rape onto herself. Rape is a male crime. Predominantly. A woman can walk down the road naked and still have the right to not be attacked in that way. As we have the right to call the police to complain there is a naked woman walking down are road, if we are too offended by what is being displayed down our street. But I doubt it though.
FB
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Bredder Tukoma
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Posted: Saturday November 20th, 2004 14:48 |
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If a woman gets a pill dropped in her drink cant do much about that.
maybe Soul machine is referring to these sex parties where they take pills and get slack and untidy and cant rememer sh*t. Maybe Im watching too much TV.
There are battyman out there that will go into normal clubs and spike drinks too.. so man better mind out!!
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Sooofresh
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Posted: Saturday November 20th, 2004 15:17 |
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Fredblack wrote: @Soulmachine. Have to disagree even though my spirit tells me your words and sentiments are slightly out of sync. No man has a right to rape a woman. Simple as..Period.....
Never heard an argument which could stand on such a basis. Acting foolish or placing yourself at risk in the worse case, and I am not talking about normal rapes by the way, is one thing. No relationship to a woman bringing rape onto herself. Rape is a male crime. Predominantly. A woman can walk down the road naked and still have the right to not be attacked in that way. As we have the right to call the police to complain there is a naked woman walking down are road, if we are too offended by what is being displayed down our street. But I doubt it though.
FB
Simple as Sir, Simple as set the record straight for all the "closet rapist" that find excuses for their crime
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runfromyourwife
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Posted: Saturday November 20th, 2004 17:27 |
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Fredblack wrote: @Soulmachine. Have to disagree even though my spirit tells me your words and sentiments are slightly out of sync. No man has a right to rape a woman. Simple as..Period.....
Never heard an argument which could stand on such a basis. Acting foolish or placing yourself at risk in the worse case, and I am not talking about normal rapes by the way, is one thing. No relationship to a woman bringing rape onto herself. Rape is a male crime. Predominantly. A woman can walk down the road naked and still have the right to not be attacked in that way. As we have the right to call the police to complain there is a naked woman walking down are road, if we are too offended by what is being displayed down our street. But I doubt it though.
FB
And taken From the News and Politics thread:
SIX BLACK FOOTBALL PLAYERS RAPE GIRL OF 15!
If a black man is not the best protector of his own sh*t and self interest what woman or man of quality in this life is going to see him as anything or not have something over him eg leverage. A man on his game gives leverage to knowone. A black man is not only guilty if he perpertrates an act, simply being associated is as bad.
FB
Interesting double standard.
So if you are a man you are guilty merely by association - in other words if you are a man no amount of mitigation will save you from the full venom of the puritanical fundamentalists who believe that simply being a man is itself a crime.
However - with shameless inconsistency these same moral fundamentalists will say the woman, whose conduct can be equally said to have contributed to her misfortune, will recieve tea and sympathy.
Praises to The Most High that Blacknet is not the real world!
Last edited on Saturday November 20th, 2004 17:44 by runfromyourwife
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Bredder Tukoma
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Posted: Saturday November 20th, 2004 17:44 |
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LOL! Well dont know if Im paranoid but Im assuming that Im one of those moral fundementalists (like the sound of that actually)..
But Run I dont see how a women getting her drink spiked in a club / laid out cold away from her friends/ and taken away and raped can be mitigated... How do you mitigate that my friend.
This is how I read FB line Run:
A black man is not only guilty if he perpertrates an act, simply being associated is as bad.
I take that as we are guilty if we did do the act/ and guilty by association by the powers that be. Especially in a court.
I may be wrong.
Last edited on Saturday November 20th, 2004 18:02 by Bredder Tukoma
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runfromyourwife
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Posted: Saturday November 20th, 2004 18:01 |
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The topic has broadened - whereby we are now discussing notions of personal responsibility.
I am challenging the idea that has been expressed in this thread that personal responsibilty is only expected in males not females.
So a woman may may indeed be as provocative as she likes and not expect to be raped. Well that's true on paper, however I wouldn't tell my daughter such nonsense.
I would tell my daughter to respect herself and avoid situations where common sense tells you, you would be at risk.
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runfromyourwife
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Posted: Saturday November 20th, 2004 18:06 |
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mansamusa wrote:
This is how I read FB line Run:
A black man is not only guilty if he perpertrates an act, simply being associated is as bad.
I take that as we are guilty if we did do the act/ and guilty by association by the powers that be. Especially in a court.
I may be wrong.
We'll have to wait for the Man Himself to confirm that.
However this is not my impression from reading the whole text of that post.
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Bredder Tukoma
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Posted: Saturday November 20th, 2004 18:12 |
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@Run
I must be slowing down this evening.
Let me clarify. If a brother was present at a gang rape... then yes he is guilty by association.
Providing it was rape and not a multiple sex session.
But would you put yourself in such a position with a 15 year girl.
If that was my Son I would say bwoy you was damn fool to be there in the first place.
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runfromyourwife
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Posted: Saturday November 20th, 2004 18:20 |
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mansamusa wrote:
I must be slowing down this evening.
Let me clarify. If a brother was present at a gang rape... then yes he is guilty by association.
Providing it was rape and not a multiple sex session.
But would you put yourself in such a position with a 15 year girl.
If that was my Son I would say bwoy you was damn fool to be there in the first place.
True - I too would tell my son to stay well clear of such situations.
But
Rape involves sexual penetration by one person of another person by force. If you were simply present and did nothing -
You Are Not Guilty Of Rape
We don't have a Good Somaritan law in this country - as they do in France whereby you would be expected to assist the victim -
Thus
Being present at the scene of a crime does not make you guilty of that crime if if you nothing to prevent it happening.
Last edited on Saturday November 20th, 2004 18:21 by runfromyourwife
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Bredder Tukoma
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Posted: Saturday November 20th, 2004 18:36 |
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Run wrote:
Being present at the scene of a crime does not make you guilty of that crime if if you nothing to prevent it happening.
Would you extend such leniency to the the one looking on if the woman raped was close to you. He could equally be scared out his wits/ or be geeing the boys on.
I know what my verdict would be. Rape no. But if not involved its his duty as a man to do something. If its informing then so be it. Or just leaving and taking himself out the equation. But to do nothing. No sah.. guilty by association. As charged Sire.
Thats not a high moral ground. Thats just basic expectations.
Last edited on Saturday November 20th, 2004 18:39 by Bredder Tukoma
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Posted: Saturday November 20th, 2004 18:54 |
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Well -
In that case many of us male and female are equally guilty of all manner of crime - the bystander who watches a person being attacked on the tube but does not intervene - the bank customer who stands by while the bank is robbed at gunpoint and does nothing.
Indeed by that standard we are all probably guilty of something by -
Ommission
ie, the fact that we do nothing where there is a duty act.
In fact I wonder which of us could hold up against such an exacting standard.
If simply being at the scene of a crime, makes you guilty of the crime if you do nothing to prevent it.
Last edited on Saturday November 20th, 2004 19:16 by runfromyourwife
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Ijexa
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Posted: Saturday November 20th, 2004 19:48 |
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@RFYW @MansaMusa
Okay... let's draw a distinction here...
Guilt by association... if you are actively part of the social group which commits any act or crime and are physically present...
No guilt by association... if you are an innocent bystander i.e. a stranger... who by chance happens to be present when a crime is committed... regardless of any inaction...
Peace...
Ijexa
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Fredblack
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Posted: Saturday November 20th, 2004 21:10 |
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@RFYW said"Interesting double standard.
So if you are a man you are guilty merely by association - in other words if you are a man no amount of mitigation will save you from the full venom of the puritanical fundamentalists who believe that simply being a man is itself a crime.
However - with shameless inconsistency these same moral fundamentalists will say the woman, whose conduct can be equally said to have contributed to her misfortune, will recieve tea and sympathy.
Praises to The Most High that Blacknet is not the real world!
A few comments. Can I say life is funny because I wanted to extend a discussion you were having with Backatya where he made some very very crucial points which had me wanted to jump in but thought against it. However you have raised the same point today and I am very happy as it gives room for some serious reasoning on a very serious point, on an issue where I know we both share an absolute passion for, the interest of black men.
I would go even further still and say this type of debate is critical in extending the education process for black men primarily and sisters of course.
1. First I think there is a fundamental intellectual confusion about particular key points and this is not directed at you. You have just provided the opportunity for us to discuss the matter. Broadly in society and this and western societies and we see this in both popular male and female behaviour and attitudes.
With regards to the nature of human, civilisation, the roles of men and women, the attitudes and biases which evolve, how each group is characterised in the way they are, and how this relates to social processess.
There are fundamental double standards which threaten any social order or society. There are also double standards which arise from any number of social roles which we can do little about other than to understand, and work around. Those standards work for and against people simultaneoulsy.
Ask any anthropologist and they will tell you societies are based on particular double standards which human beings can't actually get out of that easy. Many of them are rooted in concepts of biology spirtuality and things to do with creation and social order and a whole gamut of things. Moreover, most of them exist beyond conciousness. Eg we don't think about them, as they have been with us so long, we simply have them and repspond appropriately.
Here is a double standard. Men have always had less control over their sexual activity than women in almost most major civilisations. Even in societies which have comparatively permissive and liberal traditions eg African based societies..men still had more scope to flex generally.
You will find that in any civilisation from the year dot. Even where there are clear moral rules around it. The prostitutes are always less worthy than those they sexually serve. Another double standard. Why because men in species terms are seen as the sexual predators in all societies. It is rooted in biology and culture, psyiology eg male power and size and a whole range of stuff. Men are seen as the dominant group who like most animals, especially the dominant ones are seen as having the right and the necessity to spread their goods. Our whole civilsation is premised on these notions in one form or another.
Women can like sex or whatever as much as men, that is not in question, however the right to excercise that in public or in society is fundamentally different. Black women can talk here on Blacknet like they are free but cannot go out there and talk like that. It is scorned in almost every society on the planet outside .Even in Hollywood actually. Jack Nicholson and Waren Beatty before him were heroes .Very few leading ladies can conduct themselves in that manner. No matter how much fame or money they think they have.
Look at Maddonna miss modern girl and I will sex who I like and brag about it. What happened to her? Little miss revolutionary bumped in the real world and how it works. And women cannot be doing that kind of stuff in adult life and be respected. And check her now and many like her the pinnacle of resepectablity and chasteness.
Look at most African traditional societies and their attitude to adultery. The man was put to his death or exiled if he was really lucky. No such fate or to that extreme befell a woman. Why? Because of the organising principle that men are the predators and usually the instigators of such acts. This may not be true actually as the female mating game and males is very different and from my experience women are calling the shots not the man. He is responding to her who really controls that process.
Don't you think that was a really tough call for some men, who got caught in compromising situations when a particular woman made sure she had her best dress on to accentuate her assetts etc when he was in the area or whatever. Life is tough my brother. For man and woman and certain biases or inconsistencies which are the work of the creator not man, simply goes with the territory of life.
When Emperor Shaka broke precedent and executed a woman for adultery along with the man. It was not for the fact she was involved .It was the for the fact they did this during a war while her husband was fighting. Therefore setting the example that no warrior need worry ever again about what his wife is doing while he is at the front. Because she would get it as well as the man. It was unheard of and women could not believe it. But it only applied to war time conditions.
Did Zulu men cry about equality? No they as men actually were happy with their lot and know with any benefit comes a cost. I would take the burden of being a man for the rights it gives me in a whole heap of areas against those of being a woman. Eg the right to chase fine black women without the stress. Worth every whip lash.
There are double standards for men in many areas which we simply live with as that is life and as many for women. There are many fundamental reasons why society imposes double standards on its women or men as for its own survival eg owner ship of children etc.
Men generally rape women. It is not the other way around. That stems from the basic facts of human life, phsyiology, psychology and the intrnsic nature and differences in masculinity and femininity and how this manifests, especially in a perverted and dysfunctional manner. Male rapist threaten the structure of communal and village life. Given men rape women and not the other way around. The great minds in the area of law and policy who exist in every civiliasation design what we call decision rules where the bias is against the man.
Why because it is not technically possible to develop a decision rule where the rights of men and women are perfectly balanced in such situation. Men develop similar decision rules in other areas of civil and criminal law which benefity men, more so than women using the same reasoning. I actually commend the legal minds at work in this instance on a broad policy level.
Brother this is still a male dominated white society are most of the decision rules in all major areas of policy favour men, with a few exceptions. Of course those areas which favour women strike at the heart of some very very serious things eg the right to decide, rape, ownership and control of children etc. But apart from that....?
Now back to more fundamentals. From the begining of time and we can examine any what I call organising text of any civilisation be it the Quoran, the Bible, The Husia and texts which it is composed of. Ancient oriental text, the Ancient Greek classics, Shakespear and I could go on all day. What do we find which informs us about basic issues of masculinit and femininty.
It shows us men and women alike are driven by both higher and lower things. We love sex, particularly men and the particular aspects of femininity and what it gives us and how it makes us feel. Why shouldn't it? It is god given and a form of higher power as well as a form of baser instincts...It is the eternal conflict.
All these great teachers from the year dot. Have taught us men and women are each others weakness and many of the greatest men who have inhabited this planet have been brought low by what..the want and desire of a woman, particularly of low character and high in calculation.
And while women have always and will generally be seen as those requiring social protection, especially as motherhood was a key aspect of that self definition, they have always been seen as victims or those requiring protection and that is something most men on the planet feel comfortable and natural. I for one am very happy being the protector of the women who want to succumb to my protection. This does not mean that women have not opporutnistically used societies perceptions to hide their calculations and devious motives.
Women have been visting seers, buying potions from the beginining of time to either make their "boos" catch their eyes in the most innocent form, to women who would sell their souls to Lucifer himself to make pacts or whatever it takes to get a man, for dishonourable and potentially destructive purposes. As men have done. Many a solidier has been posted to Timbuktu so his Commander could squeeze up to his wife or woman.
This is human nature at one level and made worse by the type of society or culture we presently live in and our own lack of understanding of basic black cultural or African teachings you will find in our culture anywhere and we were taught as kids. As my mother use to say most men will never win in a dirty war against w woman so advised her sons to choose very very carefully and keep their eyes open at all times.
So today we have calculating women who have new incentives eg media exposure, big money, quasi independence eg baby mothers where the white man is your daddy not a black man, but his sperm faciliates that process. Yep these are incentives to increase the numbers of ugly and calculating women. But they have always been there and so has been the male punks who are their meal tickets or reason to be.
So the same way there are dishonourable calculating men, there are dishonourable calculating women. A man can woo a bueatiful girl and make her feel as a godess and ride her use her up and leave her and she carries that for the rest of her life. Equally women got moves too.
Neither one is fair from a fundamental point of moral justice. But we are not to know the private utterings of love talk. We can only go from what we know generally about how man and woman operate and in the lack of compelling evidence one way or another draw our conclusions.
Some times it goes for men, in others it goes against men We cannot have it both ways. Furhtermore, regardless of superfical notions of equality, the world does not see us as equal. World culture and civilisation and the billions who make up the world do not see behaviour in that nuetral terms or way. And why should they? Men usually do not behave like women and vice versa.
No civilisation is fool to the behaviour of calculating women. Speak to any feminist worthy of the name and ask them to give you a quick review of the image of women in most cultures. And you will find the image of calculating, shrewd, cold women. Some would say Eve in the Christian bible is the first archetype. Doubt it. Never mind Samson and Delia. Not only women who will use their bodies, but calculating old hags who will use their daughters or other women for their ends.
So why are we shocked? Men have to pay the cost of being men or be smart enough to have the knowledge, skills and self-discipline to read the play and act appriately. Crying life is unfair simply ain't going to cut it. Calling for equality even worse. Because we do not have equal expectations and why should we. The men in my family are more likely to eye up and go further with women, even though they have women than most of our women. We are more likely to rape, kill or be involved in acts of private or public violence than our women folk.
I differ with you, because my view is this and goes back to the begininig of time, wise men teach their sons about the ways of the world and that includes women generally and certain types of women specifically. How they move, what they want and what they use to get it. It goes with the territory that men will always be under suspicion in particular circumstances, that is how the game goes and if you don't understand it, you will never win or master it.
Look bro. A woman can sexually proposition you, walk into the room in the sexiest under wear and bra, lightly disguised behind some other garment and set the play like a spider and a fly. If you are a man of substance, you will read that play and make the right decisons. Because you know as I have experience not once, that a woman must always be allowed to have her virtue in tact, especially regardless of what took place privately or who did what to who. That is the game.
So if you read wrong and think you will go there and rule out the possiblity of it turning around and bite your arse, well that is your call. Life ain't fair. Remember that. Like the baby mother stuff. Of course men are too blame because female virtue must be protected, even though breeding for man with a woman or wife, does not seem virtuous. But who cares about that, where the game is concerned?
I am sorry to say bro. This does come from the real world. Tell that to brothers in the movement who lost their jobs and high ranking positions when they got played like suckers by a couple of sisters. One of whom had no interest in the brother and was actually making a play for someone else who rebuffed her, as he was no fool who read that this sister is "dangerous" and then she started to mess with some other big fish, as a jealousy move and the "patsy" got burnt. Destroyed him and she then handed him over like a wrapped parcel to the real subject of her desire to show her loyalty and how he needed to lighten up because even the big chiefs had their soft spots.
My head of Security would not give a flying XYZ about mitigation if one of his officers got himself into a compromising position. He or she would be finished and gone. My father would not give a toss about mitigation if you got yourself in sh*t. In fact we have men in my family who got burnt. Nothing drastic (other women) and how do you think the other men viewed them. Punks who do not deserve the respsect of men to this day, because they were so stupid and wreckless. Certain things men could understand other things show you are just a weak fool with no brain and hungry and undiscriminating.
FB
Last edited on Saturday November 20th, 2004 21:57 by Fredblack
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Posted: Saturday November 20th, 2004 21:18 |
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@Ijexa said"No guilt by association... if you are an innocent bystander i.e. a stranger... who by chance happens to be present when a crime is committed... regardless of any inaction...
Peace...
Ijexa
Exactly. People may attempt to make any spurious connection or association. Some have absolutely no legs at all and others like your first example eg was there watching or had knowledge thereof...completely different matter.
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Posted: Saturday November 20th, 2004 21:36 |
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Ijexa wrote: @RFYW @MansaMusa
Okay... let's draw a distinction here...
Guilt by association... if you are actively part of the social group which commits any act or crime and are physically present...
No guilt by association... if you are an innocent bystander i.e. a stranger... who by chance happens to be present when a crime is committed... regardless of any inaction...
Actually you are right - Scenario 1 would probably attract an incitement or abbeting charge, however in this latest this Football rape" we are still waiting to hear the full story, ie all the facts.
My bystander example was a specific response to a specific assertion.
Mansamusa seems to believes that a person present at the scene of a crime is guilty if he does nothing to prevent it.
I simply presented the full ramifications of this view.
Going back to my point -
I'm interested to know why we tolerate a lesser standard of personal responsibilty in women than we do in men.
So if a woman endangers herself by placing herself in situations where she is likely to attract undesirable male attention why is no blame attached to her?
That is not saying she deserves to be attacked or raped but you can pretty much take for a certainty that if your behaviour is excessively sexually provocative in some settings, you will indeed bring trouble upon yourself.
That is fact regardless of what anyone on Blacknet thinks.
If a White man ran through Coldharbour Lane, Brixton shouting "Kill the f**king N****rs" - I know for a fact that he would probably be killed or close to.
I have no doubt that some fools here would say that this a freedom of speech democracy and defend right his to do so and condemn the Black Men who quite rightly killed the motha f**ka.
Yes murder is illegal - but who gives f**k about what the law says when a man has been so offensive.
On the other side the man cannot rely on the womans provocative behaviour as mitigation not for acquital.
He can be enticed, toyed with, played with teased, led on, sexually tormented, but all that is irrelevant to his defence.
You could simply, just be stood in remote proximity to where such is going and you too will be strung up from the nearest tree.
>>>>>KISS TEET<<<<<<
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Posted: Saturday November 20th, 2004 21:50 |
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Fredblack wrote: @RFYW said"Interesting double standard.
So if you are a man you are guilty merely by association - in other words if you are a man no amount of mitigation will save you from the full venom of the puritanical fundamentalists who believe that simply being a man is itself a crime.
However - with shameless inconsistency these same moral fundamentalists will say the woman, whose conduct can be equally said to have contributed to her misfortune, will recieve tea and sympathy.
Praises to The Most High that Blacknet is not the real world!
A few comments. Can I say life is funny because I wanted to extend a discussion you were having with Backatya where he made some very very crucial points which had me wanted to jump in but thought against it. However you have raised the same point today and I am very happy as it gives room for some serious reasoning on a very serious point, on an issue where I know we both share an absolute passion for, the interest of black men.
I would go even further still and say this type of debate is critical in extending the education process for black men primarily and sisters of course.
1. First I think there is a fundamental intellectual confusion about particular key points and this is not directed at you. You have just provided the opportunity for us to discuss the matter. Broadly in society and this and western societies and we see this in both popular male and female behaviour and attitudes.
With regards to the nature of human, civilisation, the roles of men and women, the attitudes and biases which evolve, how each group is characterised in the way they are, and how this relates to social processess.
There are fundamental double standards which threaten any social order or society. There are also double standards which arise from any number of social roles which we can do little about other than to understand, and work around. Those standards work for and against people simultaneoulsy.
Ask any anthropologist and they will tell you societies are based on particular double standards which human beings can't actually get out of that easy. Many of them are rooted in concepts of biology spirtuality and things to do with creation and social order and a whole gamut of things. Moreover, most of them exist beyond conciousness. Eg we don't think about them, as they have been with us so long, we simply have them and repspond appropriately.
Here is a double standard. Men have always had less control over their sexual activity than women in almost most major civilisations. Even in societies which have comparatively permissive and liberal traditions eg African based societies..men still had more scope to flex generally.
You will find that in any civilisation from the year dot. Even where there are clear moral rules around it. The prostitutes are always less worthy than those they sexually serve. Another double standard. Why because men in species terms are seen as the sexual predators in all societies. It is rooted in biology and culture, psyiology eg male power and size and a whole range of stuff. Men are seen as the dominant group who like most animals, especially the dominant ones are seen as having the right and the necessity to spread their goods. Our whole civilsation is premised on these notions in one form or another.
Women can like sex or whatever as much as men, that is not in question, however the right to excercise that in public or in society is fundamentally different. Black women can talk here on Blacknet like they are free but cannot go out there and talk like that. It is scorned in almost every society on the planet outside .Even in Hollywood actually. Jack Nicholson and Waren Beatty before him were heroes .Very few leading ladies can conduct themselves in that manner. No matter how much fame or money they think they have.
Look at Maddonna miss modern girl and I will sex who I like and brag about it. What happened to her? Little miss revolutionary bumped in the real world and how it works. And women cannot be doing that kind of stuff in adult life and be respected. And check her now and many like her the pinnacle of resepectablity and chasteness.
Look at most African traditional societies and their attitude to adultery. The man was put to his death or exiled if he was really lucky. No such fate or to that extreme befell a woman. Why? Because of the organising principle that men are the predators and usually the instigators of such acts. This may not be true actually as the female mating game and males is very different and from my experience women are calling the shots not the man. He is responding to her who really controls that process.
Don't you think that was a really tough call for some men, who got caught in compromising situations when a particular woman made sure she had her best dress on to accentuate her assetts etc when he was in the area or whatever. Life is tough my brother. For man and woman and certain biases or inconsistencies which are the work of the creator not man, simply goes with the territory of life.
When Emperor Shaka broke precedent and executed a woman for adultery along with the man. It was not for the fact she was involved .It was the for the fact they did this during a war while her husband was fighting. Therefore setting the example that no warrior need worry ever again about what his wife is doing while he is at the front. Because she would get it as well as the man. It was unheard of and women could not believe it. But it only applied to war time conditions.
Did Zulu men cry about equality? No they as men actually were happy with their lot and know with any benefit comes a cost. I would take the burden of being a man for the rights it gives me in a whole heap of areas against those of being a woman. Eg the right to chase fine black women without the stress. Worth every whip lash.
There are double standards for men in many areas which we simply live with as that is life and as many for women. There are many fundamental reasons why society imposes double standards on its women or men as for its own survival eg owner ship of children etc.
Men generally rape women. It is not the other way around. That stems from the basic facts of human life, phsyiology, psychology and the intrnsic nature and differences in masculinity and femininity and how this manifests, especially in a perverted and dysfunctional manner. Male rapist threaten the structure of communal and village life. Given men rape women and not the other way around. The great minds in the area of law and policy who exist in every civiliasation design what we call decision rules where the bias is against the man.
Why because it is not technically possible to develop a decision rule where the rights of men and women are perfectly balanced in such situation. Men develop similar decision rules in other areas of civil and criminal law which benefity men, more so than women using the same reasoning. I actually commend the legal minds at work in this instance on a broad policy level.
Brother this is still a male dominated white society are most of the decision rules in all major areas of policy favour men, with a few exceptions. Of course those areas which favour women strike at the heart of some very very serious things eg the right to decide, rape, ownership and control of children etc. But apart from that....?
Now back to more fundamentals. From the begining of time and we can examine any what I call organising text of any civilisation be it the Quoran, the Bible, The Husia and texts which it is composed of. Ancient oriental text, the Ancient Greek classics, Shakespear and I could go on all day. What do we find which informs us about basic issues of masculinit and femininty.
It shows us men and women alike are driven by both higher and lower things. We love sex, particularly men and the particular aspects of femininity and what it gives us and how it makes us feel. Why shouldn't it? It is god given and a form of higher power as well as a form of baser instincts...It is the eternal conflict.
All these great teachers from the year dot. Have taught us men and women are each others weakness and many of the greatest men who have inhabited this planet have been brought low by what..the want and desire of a woman, particularly of low character and high in calculation.
And while women have always and will generally be seen as those requiring social protection, especially as motherhood was a key aspect of that self definition, they have always been seen as victims or those requiring protection and that is something most men on the planet feel comfortable and natural. I for one am very happy being the protector of the women who want to succumb to my protection. This does not mean that women have not opporutnistically used societies perceptions to hide their calculations and devious motives.
Women have been visting seers, buying potions from the beginining of time to either make their "boos" catch their eyes in the most innocent form, to women who would sell their souls to Lucifer himself to make pacts or whatever it takes to get a man, for dishonourable and potentially destructive purposes. As men have done. Many a solidier has been posted to Timbuktu so his Commander could squeeze up to his wife or woman.
This is human nature at one level and made worse by the type of society or culture we presently live in and our own lack of understanding of basic black cultural or African teachings you will find in our culture anywhere and we were taught as kids. As my mother use to say most men will never win in a dirty war against w woman so advised her sons to choose very very carefully and keep their eyes open at all times.
So today we have calculating women who have new incentives eg media exposure, big money, quasi independence eg baby mothers where the white man is your daddy not a black man, but his sperm faciliates that process. Yep these are incentives to increase the numbers of ugly and calculating women. But they have always been there and so has been the male punks who are their meal tickets or reason to be.
So the same way there are dishonourable calculating men, there are dishonourable calculating women. A man can woo a bueatiful girl and make her feel as a godess and ride her use her up and leave her and she carries that for the rest of her life. Equally women got moves too.
Neither one is fair from a fundamental point of moral justice. But we are not to know the private utterings of love talk. We can only go from what we know generally about how man and woman operate and in the lack of compelling evidence one way or another draw our conclusions.
Some times it goes for men, in others it goes against men We cannot have it both ways. Furhtermore, regardless of superfical notions of equality, the world does not see us as equal. World culture and civilisation and the billions who make up the world do not see behaviour in that nuetral terms or way. And why should they? Men usually do not behave like women and vice versa.
No civilisation is fool to the behaviour of calculating women. Speak to any feminist worthy of the name and ask them to give you a quick review of the image of women in most cultures. And you will find the image of calculating, shrewd, cold women. Some would say Eve in the Christian bible is the first archetype. Doubt it. Never mind Samson and Delia. Not only women who will use their bodies, but calculating old hags who will use their daughters or other women for their ends.
So why are we shocked? Men have to pay the cost of being men or be smart enough to have the knowledge, skills and self-discipline to read the play and act appriately. Crying life is unfair simply ain't going to cut it. Calling for equality even worse. Because we do not have equal expectations and why should we. The men in my family are more likely to eye up and go further with women, even though they have women than most of our women. We are more likely to rape, kill or be involved in acts of private or public violence than our women folk.
I differ with you, because my view is this and goes back to the begininig of time, wise men teach their sons about the ways of the world and that includes women generally and certain types of women specifically. How they move, what they want and what they use to get it. It goes with the territory that men will always be under suspicion in particular circumstances, that is how the game goes and if you don't understand it, you will never win or master it.
Look bro. A woman can sexually proposition you, walk into the room in the sexiest under wear and bra, lightly disguised behind some other garment and set the play like a spider and a fly. If you are a man of substance, you will read that play and make the right decisons. Because you know as I have experience not once, that a woman must always be allowed to have her virtue in tact, especially regardless of what took place privately or who did what to who. That is the game.
So if you read wrong and think you will go there and rule out the possiblity of it turning around and bite your arse, well that is your call. Life ain't fair. Remember that. Like the baby mother stuff. Of course men are too blame because female virtue must be protected, even though breeding for man with a woman or wife, does not seem virtuous. But who cares about that, where the game is concerned?
I am sorry to say bro. This does come from the real world. Tell that to brothers in the movement who lost their jobs and high ranking positions when they got played like suckers by a couple of sisters. One of whom had no interest in the brother was making plays for others who read that this sister is dangerous and then started to mess with him as a jealousy move and he got burnt. Destroyed him and she handed him over like a wrapped parcel to the real subject of her desire to show her loyalty and how he needed to lighten up because even the big chiefs had their soft spots.
My head of Security would not give a flying XYZ about mitigation if one of his officers got himself into a compromising position. He or she would be finished and gone. My father would not give a toss about mitigation if you got yourself in sh*t. In fact we have men in my family who got burnt. Nothing drastic (other women) and how do you think the other men viewed them. Punks who do not deserve the respsect of men to this day, because they were so stupid and wreckless. Certain things men could understand other things show you are just a weak fool with no brain and hungry and undiscriminating.
FB
Haven't got time to respond to all of this hallucinatory garbage but my initial reaction is
this is your opinion you are welcome to it.
Nobody in this place is gonna call me explicitly or implicitly weak any thing - do you get me Mr Fredblack?
If you think I'm a weak then you'd better prove it "Brother". You insulted and threatened me once before and I let it pass -
Not this time mister.
Now you are winding me up
>>>>>KISS TEET<<<<<
Last edited on Saturday November 20th, 2004 21:51 by runfromyourwife
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Posted: Saturday November 20th, 2004 22:02 |
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@Brother can I say with respect you are very touchy as I deliberately did not direct anything at you and talked the principle. I mean with no disrespect bro. You cut and pasted my post and used it for your argument not vice versa.
I assumed if you do that you would expect the person to come back on the points...
Now I have clarified that I was not directing anything at you and to be honest have no idea why you should think that to be the case. You could continue with your counter argument which I think more important than either you or I in the scheme of things.
FB
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Posted: Saturday November 20th, 2004 22:37 |
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@Aneki
I posted a thread on this same drug last year and its good that its come up again because its around this time if the year where drinking is at a high.
Whoever said this drug scare is a hoax I am not sure about that because when I was informed of this drug my link came via someone in the police force as an article that was emailed to all its members.
 To any posters that likes to drink and socialise its always better to be careful and wine bars and pubs are being encouraged to have these things called stoppers that you put in drink bottles and then place your straw into. It stops anyone from slipping the pill in your drink as the stoppers acts as a cork. For the people that drink pints from glasses well you still have to be extra careful.
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Posted: Saturday November 20th, 2004 22:51 |
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@RFYW I had to read my post over again even though I was clear the first time what I wrote. Too be honest bro you do yourself no favours when you said"Haven't got time to respond to all of this hallucinatory garbage but my initial reaction is
this is your opinion you are welcome to it"
Dear brother. I had to check my post a couple of times to simply tell me that nothing I said in was directed at you personally and why should it? This my friend is about argument not personal attacks. So I am at a lost what has made you respond in that manner. But that is your fight not mine.
But reading your response again have to say several things bro. You are disrespecting yourself by being so inconsistent. You describe my argument as in your words hallucinatory garbage. On what basis do you come to that conclusion and by extension I am wrong and you are correct. Usually that is done via intelligent exchange and discussion. Do I take it that your response is driven by the inability to extend such a challenge to what is being said.
I did not insult you or your argument. I dealt with your argument. It is also inconistent when it suited you to post and respond to my comments and now when I respond or challenge your argument, your response is fundamentally inconsistent and now abusive...Hmmm?
Now my argument has been dismissed as simply my "opnion" which can be read to mean "damn I don't have a proper informed response"? I beg to remind you the old saying there is opinion and informed opinion. So I am expected to respect your argument, which I do by giving it time and in turn your response is dismissive eg my opnion.
Bro who do you think you are hurting?. Me or you and this goes right to what I said about black men being knowing how to look after their self interests. Who is being undermined by your post above me or you or the argument?
Think about what I am saying and then apply it to this rape discussion about black men being in control of their own fates, reputation and image.
Peace out.
FB
Last edited on Saturday November 20th, 2004 23:06 by Fredblack
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Posted: Saturday November 20th, 2004 22:59 |
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@Mafdet
Hi Sis,
I was the one who said that it was hoax, the reason why is like you I received the message and posted on another forum that I use a lot...
and a good friend pointed out to me that it was a hoax
here is the information that he gave me
Progesterex Hoax
Description
This is another scaremail circulating online which contains misleading information about a new drug which is supposedly being used by criminals, particularly rapists, to render their victims helpless.
This new drug named Progesterex is claimed to prevent pregnancy forever. It is supposedly primarily used in veterinary schools.
The claims of this email are all false. There is no known drug named Progesterex. Recipients of this email are advised to ignore its contents and not forward it to other users.
Original Message
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:- Very Important Please Read Carefully NIGHT CLUB RAPE
A woman at Gas nightclub (Sydney) on Saturday night (8th Feb) was taken by 5 men, who according to hospital and police reports, gang raped her before dumping her naked at Neutral Bay.
Unable to remember the events of the evening, tests later confirmed the repeat rapes along with traces of Rohypnol in her blood.
Boyfriends and girlfriends, take heed.
Progesterex, that is an essentially a small sterilisation pill. The drug is now being used by rapists at parties to rape AND sterilize their victims.
Progesterex is available to vets to sterilize large animals. Rumour has it that the Progesterex is being used together with Rohypnol, the date rape drug.
As with Rohypnol, all they have to do is drop it into the girl's drink. The girl can't remember a thing the next morning, of all that had taken place the night before Progesterex, which dissolves in drinks just as easily, is such that the victim doesn't conceive from the rape and the rapist needn't worry about having a paternity test identifying him months later.
The drug's affects ARE NOT TEMPORARY - They are P*E*R*M*A*N*E*N*T
Progesterex was designed to sterilize horses.
Any female that takes it WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO CONCEIVE.
The weasels can get this drug from anyone who is in the vet school or any university.
It's that easy, and Progesterex is about to break out big on campuses everywhere. Believe it or not there is even a site on the internet showing people how to use it.
Please forward this to everyone you know, especially girls.
Be careful when you're out and don't leave your drink unattended.
Please make the effort to forward this on to all you know...
@ All...
If you do want to check out any scaremails that you receive on the net please use this link
http://www.trendmicro.com/vinfo/hoaxes/hoax5.asp?HName=Progesterex+Hoax
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Posted: Saturday November 20th, 2004 23:10 |
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@RFYW
***Shakes head***
Look... relax... too easy to dismiss something on a personal or intellectual basis...
Put it this way... if you are the person who you think you are... and have the ability and intelligence to deal with it...
Then... do so...
Let's not waste time pissing into the wind... where this is an arena where we can expose our ideas... and by extension... who we are and what we think... against all comers...
For how else do we validate who we are... what we believe... and the level of our perception...
Hmmmmmmm...?
I've said it before... "...E.I.A... ...Evolution In Action..."...
Cerebral Warfare at its most ruthless and cutthroat...
So... if you disagree with Mr Black... then... the floor is yours...
Deal with it... don't ramp... don't play...
If you have the wherewithall... subsume and reduce his arguements... exposing all it's flaws...
***Shrugs shoulders***
Hmmmmmm...?
***Strokes chin***
Won't be easy... Mr Black is almost invariably spot on... regardless of whether or not I agree with his stance or viewpoint from a personal or intellectual point of view... and...
***Shakes head***
Believe me... he's is objectively and intellectually in terms of the depth and breadth of his analysis... near enough 99% correct...
...LOL...
Okay... I may have dropped a few decimal points here and there...
***Shrugs shoulders***
It damn near rare enough to see that level of thought and ability in any aspect of life...
And...
...LOL...
Damn near impossible for me to concede that to anybody... this side of death...
But...
*S*
The good thing is that there is quite a few posters... male and female who can bring it... to the nth degree...
That just serves to ressure me that the future is bright...
*S*
...The future is... African...
Peace...
Ijexa
Last edited on Saturday November 20th, 2004 23:17 by
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Posted: Saturday November 20th, 2004 23:16 |
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Fredblack wrote: @RFYW said"Interesting double standard.
So if you are a man you are guilty merely by association - in other words if you are a man no amount of mitigation will save you from the full venom of the puritanical fundamentalists who believe that simply being a man is itself a crime.
However - with shameless inconsistency these same moral fundamentalists will say the woman, whose conduct can be equally said to have contributed to her misfortune, will recieve tea and sympathy.
Praises to The Most High that Blacknet is not the real world!
A few comments. Can I say life is funny because I wanted to extend a discussion you were having with Backatya where he made some very very crucial points which had me wanted to jump in but thought against it. However you have raised the same point today and I am very happy as it gives room for some serious reasoning on a very serious point, on an issue where I know we both share an absolute passion for, the interest of black men.
I would go even further still and say this type of debate is critical in extending the education process for black men primarily and sisters of course.
1. First I think there is a fundamental intellectual confusion about particular key points and this is not directed at you. You have just provided the opportunity for us to discuss the matter. Broadly in society and this and western societies and we see this in both popular male and female behaviour and attitudes.
With regards to the nature of human, civilisation, the roles of men and women, the attitudes and biases which evolve, how each group is characterised in the way they are, and how this relates to social processess.
There are fundamental double standards which threaten any social order or society. There are also double standards which arise from any number of social roles which we can do little about other than to understand, and work around. Those standards work for and against people simultaneoulsy.
Ask any anthropologist and they will tell you societies are based on particular double standards which human beings can't actually get out of that easy. Many of them are rooted in concepts of biology spirtuality and things to do with creation and social order and a whole gamut of things. Moreover, most of them exist beyond conciousness. Eg we don't think about them, as they have been with us so long, we simply have them and repspond appropriately.
Here is a double standard. Men have always had less control over their sexual activity than women in almost most major civilisations. Even in societies which have comparatively permissive and liberal traditions eg African based societies..men still had more scope to flex generally.
You will find that in any civilisation from the year dot. Even where there are clear moral rules around it. The prostitutes are always less worthy than those they sexually serve. Another double standard. Why because men in species terms are seen as the sexual predators in all societies. It is rooted in biology and culture, psyiology eg male power and size and a whole range of stuff. Men are seen as the dominant group who like most animals, especially the dominant ones are seen as having the right and the necessity to spread their goods. Our whole civilsation is premised on these notions in one form or another.
Women can like sex or whatever as much as men, that is not in question, however the right to excercise that in public or in society is fundamentally different. Black women can talk here on Blacknet like they are free but cannot go out there and talk like that. It is scorned in almost every society on the planet outside .Even in Hollywood actually. Jack Nicholson and Waren Beatty before him were heroes .Very few leading ladies can conduct themselves in that manner. No matter how much fame or money they think they have.
Look at Maddonna miss modern girl and I will sex who I like and brag about it. What happened to her? Little miss revolutionary bumped in the real world and how it works. And women cannot be doing that kind of stuff in adult life and be respected. And check her now and many like her the pinnacle of resepectablity and chasteness.
Look at most African traditional societies and their attitude to adultery. The man was put to his death or exiled if he was really lucky. No such fate or to that extreme befell a woman. Why? Because of the organising principle that men are the predators and usually the instigators of such acts. This may not be true actually as the female mating game and males is very different and from my experience women are calling the shots not the man. He is responding to her who really controls that process.
Don't you think that was a really tough call for some men, who got caught in compromising situations when a particular woman made sure she had her best dress on to accentuate her assetts etc when he was in the area or whatever. Life is tough my brother. For man and woman and certain biases or inconsistencies which are the work of the creator not man, simply goes with the territory of life.
When Emperor Shaka broke precedent and executed a woman for adultery along with the man. It was not for the fact she was involved .It was the for the fact they did this during a war while her husband was fighting. Therefore setting the example that no warrior need worry ever again about what his wife is doing while he is at the front. Because she would get it as well as the man. It was unheard of and women could not believe it. But it only applied to war time conditions.
Did Zulu men cry about equality? No they as men actually were happy with their lot and know with any benefit comes a cost. I would take the burden of being a man for the rights it gives me in a whole heap of areas against those of being a woman. Eg the right to chase fine black women without the stress. Worth every whip lash.
There are double standards for men in many areas which we simply live with as that is life and as many for women. There are many fundamental reasons why society imposes double standards on its women or men as for its own survival eg owner ship of children etc.
Men generally rape women. It is not the other way around. That stems from the basic facts of human life, phsyiology, psychology and the intrnsic nature and differences in masculinity and femininity and how this manifests, especially in a perverted and dysfunctional manner. Male rapist threaten the structure of communal and village life. Given men rape women and not the other way around. The great minds in the area of law and policy who exist in every civiliasation design what we call decision rules where the bias is against the man.
Why because it is not technically possible to develop a decision rule where the rights of men and women are perfectly balanced in such situation. Men develop similar decision rules in other areas of civil and criminal law which benefity men, more so than women using the same reasoning. I actually commend the legal minds at work in this instance on a broad policy level.
Brother this is still a male dominated white society are most of the decision rules in all major areas of policy favour men, with a few exceptions. Of course those areas which favour women strike at the heart of some very very serious things eg the right to decide, rape, ownership and control of children etc. But apart from that....?
Now back to more fundamentals. From the begining of time and we can examine any what I call organising text of any civilisation be it the Quoran, the Bible, The Husia and texts which it is composed of. Ancient oriental text, the Ancient Greek classics, Shakespear and I could go on all day. What do we find which informs us about basic issues of masculinit and femininty.
It shows us men and women alike are driven by both higher and lower things. We love sex, particularly men and the particular aspects of femininity and what it gives us and how it makes us feel. Why shouldn't it? It is god given and a form of higher power as well as a form of baser instincts...It is the eternal conflict.
All these great teachers from the year dot. Have taught us men and women are each others weakness and many of the greatest men who have inhabited this planet have been brought low by what..the want and desire of a woman, particularly of low character and high in calculation.
And while women have always and will generally be seen as those requiring social protection, especially as motherhood was a key aspect of that self definition, they have always been seen as victims or those requiring protection and that is something most men on the planet feel comfortable and natural. I for one am very happy being the protector of the women who want to succumb to my protection. This does not mean that women have not opporutnistically used societies perceptions to hide their calculations and devious motives.
Women have been visting seers, buying potions from the beginining of time to either make their "boos" catch their eyes in the most innocent form, to women who would sell their souls to Lucifer himself to make pacts or whatever it takes to get a man, for dishonourable and potentially destructive purposes. As men have done. Many a solidier has been posted to Timbuktu so his Commander could squeeze up to his wife or woman.
This is human nature at one level and made worse by the type of society or culture we presently live in and our own lack of understanding of basic black cultural or African teachings you will find in our culture anywhere and we were taught as kids. As my mother use to say most men will never win in a dirty war against w woman so advised her sons to choose very very carefully and keep their eyes open at all times.
So today we have calculating women who have new incentives eg media exposure, big money, quasi independence eg baby mothers where the white man is your daddy not a black man, but his sperm faciliates that process. Yep these are incentives to increase the numbers of ugly and calculating women. But they have always been there and so has been the male punks who are their meal tickets or reason to be.
So the same way there are dishonourable calculating men, there are dishonourable calculating women. A man can woo a bueatiful girl and make her feel as a godess and ride her use her up and leave her and she carries that for the rest of her life. Equally women got moves too.
Neither one is fair from a fundamental point of moral justice. But we are not to know the private utterings of love talk. We can only go from what we know generally about how man and woman operate and in the lack of compelling evidence one way or another draw our conclusions.
Some times it goes for men, in others it goes against men We cannot have it both ways. Furhtermore, regardless of superfical notions of equality, the world does not see us as equal. World culture and civilisation and the billions who make up the world do not see behaviour in that nuetral terms or way. And why should they? Men usually do not behave like women and vice versa.
No civilisation is fool to the behaviour of calculating women. Speak to any feminist worthy of the name and ask them to give you a quick review of the image of women in most cultures. And you will find the image of calculating, shrewd, cold women. Some would say Eve in the Christian bible is the first archetype. Doubt it. Never mind Samson and Delia. Not only women who will use their bodies, but calculating old hags who will use their daughters or other women for their ends.
So why are we shocked? Men have to pay the cost of being men or be smart enough to have the knowledge, skills and self-discipline to read the play and act appriately. Crying life is unfair simply ain't going to cut it. Calling for equality even worse. Because we do not have equal expectations and why should we. The men in my family are more likely to eye up and go further with women, even though they have women than most of our women. We are more likely to rape, kill or be involved in acts of private or public violence than our women folk.
I differ with you, because my view is this and goes back to the begininig of time, wise men teach their sons about the ways of the world and that includes women generally and certain types of women specifically. How they move, what they want and what they use to get it. It goes with the territory that men will always be under suspicion in particular circumstances, that is how the game goes and if you don't understand it, you will never win or master it.
Look bro. A woman can sexually proposition you, walk into the room in the sexiest under wear and bra, lightly disguised behind some other garment and set the play like a spider and a fly. If you are a man of substance, you will read that play and make the right decisons. Because you know as I have experience not once, that a woman must always be allowed to have her virtue in tact, especially regardless of what took place privately or who did what to who. That is the game.
So if you read wrong and think you will go there and rule out the possiblity of it turning around and bite your arse, well that is your call. Life ain't fair. Remember that. Like the baby mother stuff. Of course men are too blame because female virtue must be protected, even though breeding for man with a woman or wife, does not seem virtuous. But who cares about that, where the game is concerned?
I am sorry to say bro. This does come from the real world. Tell that to brothers in the movement who lost their jobs and high ranking positions when they got played like suckers by a couple of sisters. One of whom had no interest in the brother and was actually making a play for someone else who rebuffed her, as he was no fool who read that this sister is "dangerous" and then she started to mess with some other big fish, as a jealousy move and the "patsy" got burnt. Destroyed him and she then handed him over like a wrapped parcel to the real subject of her desire to show her loyalty and how he needed to lighten up because even the big chiefs had their soft spots.
My head of Security would not give a flying XYZ about mitigation if one of his officers got himself into a compromising position. He or she would be finished and gone. My father would not give a toss about mitigation if you got yourself in sh*t. In fact we have men in my family who got burnt. Nothing drastic (other women) and how do you think the other men viewed them. Punks who do not deserve the respsect of men to this day, because they were so stupid and wreckless. Certain things men could understand other things show you are just a weak fool with no brain and hungry and undiscriminating.
FB
Well said
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Posted: Saturday November 20th, 2004 23:30 |
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@Free
Thanks for that infor so it seems this Progesterex is a hoax as you state (I am having probs getting into the link you provided right now so I'll take your word for it until then) but I take it the date rape drug is still in existence?!?!?!?!?
Btw I can't believe you quoted Fredblacks long post just to add the words "Well said" at the end of it. Kunjufu needs to call you a taxi my friend 
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Posted: Sunday November 21st, 2004 10:05 |
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Fredblack wrote: @Soulmachine. Have to disagree even though my spirit tells me your words and sentiments are slightly out of sync. No man has a right to rape a woman. Simple as..Period.....
Never heard an argument which could stand on such a basis. Acting foolish or placing yourself at risk in the worse case, and I am not talking about normal rapes by the way, is one thing. No relationship to a woman bringing rape onto herself. Rape is a male crime. Predominantly. A woman can walk down the road naked and still have the right to not be attacked in that way. As we have the right to call the police to complain there is a naked woman walking down are road, if we are too offended by what is being displayed down our street. But I doubt it though.
FB
a man who rapes a woman is not a man , and where did i say a man has the right to rape a women?. im just saying women should take more responsility for thier actions.and i dont beleive rape is only a male crime by the way.
where have you been living all this time? avnt you seen cases where many men are falsely accused of rape.iv seen women week after week leave nightclubs with 5 men to get gang banged , what was going on in these womensr head only God knowns, then you tell me what sensible lady would put her self in that situation.
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Posted: Sunday November 21st, 2004 10:15 |
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this child wrote:
Simple as Sir, Simple as set the record straight for all the "closet rapist" that find excuses for their crime
1stly you dont know me so i hope you aint calling me a rapist.
2nd you see why i hate children.
3rd you can see what introducing whitemen to your family can cause it makes you jump into conclusion thinking everyone is as perverted like them, maybe you have seen your sisters husband rape somebody , but i dont im sorry to disappoint you child.
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Posted: Sunday November 21st, 2004 15:35 |
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@Ths Soul Machine Don't actually agree with you. Even though I would say Rapist are real men because when you see who rapes there is not one category. But an inferior type of male I would agree. There is superior, average and inferior in every human and soical category as in football or sport.
As I said at the time I think what you meant and how it could have been interpreted could have been misconstrued. I agree with you about female responsibility in shaping how women are valued and portray themselves or how they behave, especially in how they dress etc. But that and raping are not related and that was the point I wanted to make. Remember reading a post about men raping a sister in Swaziland on some thread. Don't know if it is true but apparently the allegations surrounded the fact that they were wearing mini skirts.
Rape has nothing to do with how women dress but how certain men think they are entilted to behave. Dressing and rape are different discussions completely and it puts the onus in the wrong direction. Like saying why men don't walk around with condomns when women are the one's who get pregnant.
Regarding your point about where have I been eg to not know that there are many false allegations of rape against men. Bro women beeen making false allegations against men from the begining of time. Shame that because rape is probably the ulimate masculine crime, other than straight out murder.
Probably no comparison to the degree they do today, where the system, media etc actually facilitates it. But nobody is going to convince me that the majority fo rape allegations are false because most women will not report a rape. Me and my people had to deal with a rapist in the making who grabbed the wrong sister in broad day light at a coach trip, where a whole heap of black people were present. She went for walk with him away from the group and my man pushed her into the bushes. She knew the brother for the local area who knew us and apparently was in my brother's year in school.
But the sister comes from black organisational background and was trained by me personally in personal security regained the initiative very quickly and challenged him and started to kick up the biggest noise and he lost his nerve, as she wasn't going to be taken easily. What did the brother do when we came to visit?. sh*t himself obviously. Deny it point blank and acted as if grossly offended that the word rape and him could even be associated. The man's acting skills could take Oscar after Oscar.
Dilema whose word do we take. No dilema he got taught a very serious lesson about the type of conduct we expect in this manor around particular sisters and worst put it out on the streets that he was a potential rapist which killed him. He moved out the manor very quickly thereafter. But if he was successful, I don't think that sister would have gone to the police like many others.
But to your point about false allegations. Not dissing sisters but truth is truth. Malcolm X said that he only trusted women 95 percent which pissed some women off big time why. First his Islamic teachings and his knowledge of certain calculating and opportunistic women and how they flex. Secondly, Malcolm was a "womanist" and man who experienced a wide range of women, especially on the streets and was no punk.
Malcolm was speaking in the 60's where black men and women lived better, not in 2004 where we live like pigs in too many cases. If Malcolm was alive today he would have to change his estimate on the amount of black women whose word can be trusted and taken on face value. That is the gutter we now live in where we can no longer simply take a black woman's word on face value, because the concept of female honour or integrity means nothing to significant sections of our women; never mind white women who have been playing this game for god knows how long. Look at the US and how many black men who were killed for associations with white women.
Bro this is about black men knowing who the enemy is or to quote RFYW being on "Enemy watch" to use a security phrase. No use complaining that the opposition is dirty and unethical, that is the nature of the war my friend. It's ugly out there.
If black men ain't too bright and need a lesson we need to look no further than the Judge Clarence Thomas Case or the Tyson cases. Tyson is a product of a particular background and responsible for his decisions. But Tyson got taken to the cleaners, in terms of how black women basically lied and set him up like a punk.
Greta Van Sustreen, who is the only presenter of class and any type of integrity on US Fox Channel and a highly qualified and experienced attorney in one of the best interviews I have ever seen. Said to Tyson for what it is worth many of her close friends and members of the legal elite in the US said the Tyson rape trial was one of the biggest travesties of justice even seen in the US. They would convict nobody on that mickey mouse type of evidence.
I beg all serious brothers who have the time and who have any uncertainties about the nature of the war against black men to study carefully the Clarence Thomas case. One of the most important and disgusting pieces of African-American history. There are about five important books on the subject. Two written by feminists and one edited by Toni Morrison and three by award winning political scienitist or experts on US congressional politics and scandals.
Thomas and Anita Hill were lovers for over a decade. Her career was built on his patronage and bedroom antics. He promoted her twice and took him with her as his career developed. She wanted Thomas, who had some dry white woman and in effect like Hill were classic coconuts. Both of whom were Repubicans and right wing in outlook. When it was clear my man was going to the Supreme Court and was not going to leave his white woman which was never on the cards from the off, and could not continue the relationship, because FBI and intelligence services have to vet those guys as that is blackmail mateial, she told her white friend who leaked the story and done him in. You take a mistress once you have the position on the Suprem Court not before. That is how it goes.
When Thomas spoke about a "modern day lynching" but with a difference eg black women setting up black men for white women to scream rape. He was not joking. One of the nasiest cases in recent times. White women and black women and educated ones at that, and black feminists in particular had a feild day. But all the polls showed that the black male community did not buy it for a second. Over time black women begun to ask questions and backtrack. But the damage was already done.
But what is so disgusting and where Toni Morrison lost a lot of credibility for me, was how quick she and other black female intellectuals were to scream look at black man and what is so revealing was that you would have to be a fool or so prejudiced to the point of blindness to be stupid not to have read it. A woman who is being sexually harrassed does not follow her boss around the country. She chips as soon as she can. She does not wait until a decade to say he use to talk sex talk with her ten years ago and leave out the whole history betweeen them, because they did worse than sex talk.
Anyone with two brain cells could have seen this did not make sense, never mind anyone who has practical experience of dealing with no more than two sexual harrassment cases. It was a joke from the get go. It was a unholy alliance between so called black women representatives, the white and anti black male media and white feminists who were also pro Hilary Clinton and her husband, who Thomas did not support. But neither did Anita Hill. Anita Hill threw the brother to the wolves.
Final example from community life not big celebrities, about the type of black women or women out there. A brother close to me, who is a very successful business man, self made man etc, whose ego is bigger than China and as positive as he is when it comes to getting ahead etc is as foolish as they come; especially where women are concerned.
He is almost a stereotype of ghetto fabulous and attracts those kind of women. Most men from decent origins would see through those women in a second, as they are not very sophisticated or difficult to see through once you get pass their psychicality. Them hot and ignorant, angry type of sisters who you see in all those African-American films. Can't take them anywhere decent because you might have to drive a kick up their skirt, because regretably they respond to be treated like animals. How did Jay Z describe in one song after this type of sister saw a brother get violent," she got so turned on she had to shower twice, them kinda girls.." Women coming from cold hard places.
Problem is he ain't that type of brother so setting himself up for licks big time. Worse still he has three baby mothers. Two of whom were fighting for his money and trying to out do each other with kids. But he don't partial because it is an extension of his ego. He is a cheque book dad and think his money will never finish, so condoms ain't his style. I think he must have learned now. Anyway.
Let me tell you about certain brothers and there are too many to count who I know. They want to run life in certain ways. Cool each man to his path, but they can't run the life they want to live or play the game by the rules and play it to the fullness. So if you want to profile like you are street. No problems. Play it my man don't say it and play it to the max and by the rules of whatever life you live.
Fakes always get burned when push comes to shove and the two 7's clash. And the women they deal with know this from the jump. If you want to run three baby mothers then you better know how to run your sh*t and lock it down, tightly.
My man met some white guy involved in shady runnings and involved him in some small and foolish move to store some weed. My boy don't smoke weed and is not involved in weed and doesn't need the money. But the way he burns and throws it around only god knows. The man has never been involved with the law, and to make it worse the man is much older than me and decides at this time in life he wants to be an outlaw.
What does he do? He is too lazy to clear out his lock ups and he has quite a few of them with all kinds of things related to his legit business. So he asks one of his baby mothers to let him rent a spare room in her flat or house. No problem. Of course one day he and baby mother get into to something and this hot head woman decideds to fix him. Goes to the police and tells them that my man is storing drugs in her place.
But here is where you see a black man who has no self respect and wonders why he commands neither love, respect or genuine feeling or authority, neither fear from these women. You got to have one or the other or some combination thereof, especially in my business.
The whole case against him was based on the evidence of his second baby mother who sang like a bird with pure spite and hatred in her heart. People could not believe it and were taking time off work to see with their own eyes whether the woman could be so bold face and she was. She was on the stand for the best part of a week killing this brother slowly or quickly.
The prosectuion portrayed my man like he was some yardie gangster and he got seven years for his first offence. It almost killed him and the amount of money he lost was unbelievable because he had to sell some of his best properties. The sentence was an amount of money, serious amount and seven years. If he did not have the money he would have got more.
The man's name was in the papers like some mafia don. Me and my bredrin were rolling around on the floor. You a mafia don and your child's mother can be so bareface and without any fear of comeback to slay you like that. This is a man who has failed by all accounts except making money and definietly knows nought how to keep it.
We know the type of women out there. But they also know the type of fool fool black man who does not value his position or sweat or his future. Yes there are always pure and genuine victims where good people through no fault of their own meet bascially evil people. But they I think are far and few between.
This brother like so many were foolish in their decision making, very poor judges of character and situation and had nobody who were genuine friends to have their backs. Needy men are a danger to themselves and all those around them, because they make poor decisions when there are always more options available to them which protects and does not expose them.
If you are playing any games in life you have to understand the rules and protect your own self interests as a black man and do not leave it at the mercy of others. Nothng about fairness. Its about winning and being able to avoid the many death traps waiting to consume black men. This is an elite sport my man like war, those who can get through to the various obstacle courses and trip wires and booby trap join the team and those who don't well.... Life. And their are a whole heap of tricky women trying to side track a brother away from the real princesses in this life. So no matter on what level black men have to be smart and tough in the persuit of the good things in life.
So it is not that I do not inhabit the real world. Far from simply understand the rules of engagement as in any area of potential human conflict.
FB
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runfromyourwife
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Posted: Sunday November 21st, 2004 20:33 |
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Well, well - they seem to think I have run out of argument. They seem to think that my righteuos outrage at hypocrisy and insult means they've either scored or made -
a point!
Let's deal with mr Ijexa -
First!
mr Ijexa says:
Put it this way... if you are the person who you think you are... and have the ability and intelligence to deal with it...
So what's your point here?
What person do I think I am?
Who have I claimed to be?
Is that some kind of attempt at dismissal by one of the Blacknet "royalty".
So what is it - who I am to have an opinion that differs from that of the Blacknet elite?
>>>>KISS TEET<<<<<<
Sorry dude!
I'm not some fawning illiterate who is easily impressed by self appointed "wise men" with a good line in spiel.
So... if you disagree with Mr Black... then... the floor is yours...
Yes indeed - and where I disagree with him you or anyone else - taking the floor and any other spoils to be taken, is exactly what I intend to do.
If you have the wherewithall... subsume and reduce his arguements... exposing all it's flaws...
Whether I do or not is a matter of opinion - obviously in yours I don't.
But's let's assume your right and that I am unable to mount an adeqaute to your friends arguments.
That still does not make him - Right!
It only proves that I, Runfromyourwife can't show him to be wrong.
Actually - What it really proves is that what he says is more popular than what I say, since people tend to dismiss the wisdom of those whom they are hostile to.
Indeed here on Blacknet anti-black male phobia seems to be the order of the day. However in other quarters I have no doubt that what I say would be regarded as having more than satisfactorily -
"subsumed and reduced his arguements... exposing all it's flaws..."
:-)
>>>>>KISS TEET<<<<<<
Won't be easy... Mr Black is almost invariably spot on... Believe me... he's is objectively and intellectually in terms of the depth and breadth of his analysis... near enough 99% correct...
I actually agree with much of what mr Fredblack says and even where I disagreed initially, I have accepted the logic of some of the things the man has said - but I wouldn't say the man is "spot on" 99% of time.
Such - uncritical approval borders on fanaticism in my view. Almost cultish worship.
LOL!
One final thought to you mr Ijexa and all the other confused souls who might wonder, to quote you mr Ijexa -
"who I think I am"
I'm just a real Black Man untainted by the isms that seem to have infected So many Black minds. I aint intimidated by no alleged "intellect", I'm a Black Man who thinks for himself and isn't afraid to swim against the tide and confront the leaders of the mob who would have any Black Man, whether guilty or innocent, swinging from the nearest tree by his testicles.
So -
Whilst you may cast aspersions on my character -
Don't under estimate my strength of character.
Keep preaching to Sheeple!
>>>Shakes Head<<<<
Last edited on Sunday November 21st, 2004 20:39 by runfromyourwife
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Posted: Sunday November 21st, 2004 21:16 |
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@RFYW brother what are you talking about. For real. We are having an interesting discussion and then you just flip and now you come back talking about righteous anger. And about you are being insulted by who and what I ask myself.
Bro people can only come to conclusions from your behaviour and read in between the lines for themselves. Given there was no insult directed at you what are we to conclude?
Strange....and what is funny very few people on this Forum insult people like you, but of course that can be justified and when no insult is directed at you, you see insult.
Hard work....So rather than deal with the debate you prefer to attempt to diss another. Boy....
FB
Last edited on Sunday November 21st, 2004 21:23 by Fredblack
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Posted: Monday November 22nd, 2004 00:10 |
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@RFYW
...LOL...
***Shakes head***
Nice try... but no cigar...
*S*
Not gonna give you the chance of wimping out or moving the goalposts...
*S*
Mr Black's arguement is still awaiting your reply... especially since you initiated the exchange by basically accusing him of double standards and hypocrisy...
So...
...LOL...
...I await your fulsome... sophisticated... and spirited counter to his arguement(s)...
See ya...
*S*
Ijexa
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runfromyourwife
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Posted: Monday November 22nd, 2004 00:15 |
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@mr Fredblack
Well
I interpeted some of your comments as a veiled slur. If no slur was intended then indeed -
I am the fool who overreacted, and I'll own that.
However - I still have reservations about the terms you use to make some of your points.
But we'll leave that to one side.
We are talking about a rape allegation made against a group of young men. You and others have effectively tried and convicted them on the basis that they failed to percieve the motivations of some one who may have deliberately targeted them for her own reasons.
You say they it's their fault for putting themselves in that situation. However where women place themselves in situations where they may be equally be said to have authored their own trouble we are less critical.
This is a double standard I reject with every fibre of my being.
Basically you are saying that, that's how it goes - right?
Life is full if double standards and this is no less true with regards to the different expectations we have of men and women.
That appears to be the sum of your argument.
Well beg to differ -
IN A MAJOR WAY!
Injustice is injustice - That's why we have Equality Movements to eradicate the injustices based on outdated presumptions about gender race and class.
You seem to be defending those same archaic notions about gender that people are trying to combat.
When a persons liberty is at stake every step must be taken to ensure justice - to ALL parties concerned.
Attitudes about gender are minimally relevant - the pertinent issue is whether or not the alleged victim was raped. In deciding that - relevant factors like the sexual history of the alleged victim, the behaviour of the alleged victim and the motives of the alleged victim may all be mitigating factors, yet you and others want to exclude them.
Let's deal with the argument that even she if consented she was under age. Well the girl in this latest story is reported to be 15 - girls get pregant at 12 in this country and are given contraception behind their parents backs but none of the lynch mob seem to make any noise about that. I've never heard of anyone being prosecuted for statutory rape in any of the cases involving under age pregnancies.
We might as well do away with the law on statutory rape because it is a total fiction.
But of course there's fun to be had when a Black Man is at the centre of the controversy. Opportunity aplenty to get up on our rocking horses and ride gallantly to defend the honour of woman.
Sorry, I take a different view.
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Fredblack
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Posted: Monday November 22nd, 2004 03:00 |
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@RFYW said"@mr Fredblack
Well
I interpeted some of your comments as a veiled slur. If no slur was intended then indeed -
I am the fool who overreacted, and I'll own that.
However - I still have reservations about the terms you use to make some of your points.
No problem back to business
But we'll leave that to one side.
We are talking about a rape allegation made against a group of young men. You and others have effectively tried and convicted them on the basis that they failed to percieve the motivations of some one who may have deliberately targeted them for her own reasons.
You say they it's their fault for putting themselves in that situation. However where women place themselves in situations where they may be equally be said to have authored their own trouble we are less critical.
I can only speak for myself. But you misrepresent my case. I am not in the postion to try or convict. What I am in the position to do is question and critise their judgement in a broader context. That context is this is not the first or second incident of this nature in football nor the first incident involving black players.
I read this piece by a white writer who used the example of human stupidity and the crocodile in the lake. He said that in a community with a lake containing a crocodile, which ate a child. That one incident is usually enough to embed in the collective mind that that is a dangerous lake. If person after person lost their lives in that lake then it would be a reasonable case of collective or individual stupidity.
African-American cultural critic Stanley Crouich has a wonderful term when talking about black people...he calls it simply DUMB BEHAVIOUR...because it doesn't take rocket science or advance intelligence to work things in out in a media driven society for black peole to know particular actions are just dumb and can be explained in no other way.
Secondly. You actually make the presumption that I am primarily concerned or looking at this from the female perspective. I do not and I thought that was very obvious and cuts to the core of what I have said a million times in other posts. I am talking about men being responsible for their behaviour and decisions and matters. I am not concerned with what the women in question is doing. She is only half of the equation. It is for me about black men protecting themselves not seeking to divert that onto the failings of the woman.
I am a man. I associate largely with black men and a member of a black male organisation and that is how I look at most social issues of this type. I cannot speak for women nor atttempt to. Sisters have to lead sisters and influence thier behaviour and men have to look after their own sh*t. None of this blame sharing and bouncing back and forth and nobody being responsible for their end. That is where I am coming from.
That is why I opened my post by saying I know you and I share that same passion about defending black male interest. Because I am looking at this as if it was one of my own and he put himself in that situation. I would not be saying well look what the woman did. No way..
This is a double standard I reject with every fibre of my being.
Basically you are saying that, that's how it goes - right?
Life is full if double standards and this is no less true with regards to the different expectations we have of men and women.
That appears to be the sum of your argument.
Bro I think you have misconstrued my argument by your inital premise and how you I was viewing the matter. When I am talking about black men and what we can control. We can't control what a woman has in her mind, but we can contorl our judgement and decisions and behaviour.
I am also saying and you can dispute this factually whether we like it or not their are fundamental cultural biases when it comes to partitcular things and these have very rational origins . The fact that men or women can abuse or manipulate these biases eg act as victims if they are not is simply life and nothing we can do about that. If the majority of the men in the world at this time and since it begun have deep unconcious assumptions that we protect women, things deep in us and developed unconciously by the fact women gave us life. That we are not to take physical advantage and beat them up and all kinds of attrocities, is it not more likely in a normal case where there is no overwhealming evidence that we instinctly feel some sympathy for the woman or suspicion against the man.
Don't answer because we know the facts and why men of very high education and intellect passed laws based on these assumptions. Why because they have mothers to and share the same assumptions that most men on the planet do. African men in traditional societies did not cry when they were subject to harsher penalties than women. Why....? Because of their basic cultural assumptions about men, both good and bad and women. It'st like those white men who get beaten up by their wives and feel to shame to tell and when they do nobody believes them.
So my brother you are arguing with the whole of human civilisation not FredBlack on this one. Bro one thing for sure there are double standards built into both genders from time. Sometimes I use to get pissed with my girl friends and say..woman you don't know the half as you are lucky to be a woman and have to say well...I take that back..
Because whether you like it or not. Both being a male and female is a blessing and curse in terms of the double standards and things each have to put up with. God gave each our cross to bear and that is life.
Well beg to differ -
IN A MAJOR WAY!
Injustice is injustice - That's why we have Equality Movements to eradicate the injustices based on outdated presumptions about gender race and class.
You seem to be defending those same archaic notions about gender that people are trying to combat.
Well bro given the injustices against my people for the last five hundred years. I am not sure what is being argued. Never mind the injustice against black men and it is this context of the public lynching of any black man who dares to even pick his arse which has gone on for the longest, which shapes what is intelligent and wise behaviour and what is simply dumb arse moves.
No use crying about the injustice Run, been here a long time. Got to deal with the reality of the situation that black men have to know how to move when in positions and definitely when in the public eye. From a practical point of view and that is where I come from on all these issues. How it works in reality.
Do you think if you was a leader or someone of influence in any serious black power or radical organisation you know or could name and some of your people got themselves into that mess, you would be talking like this about the injustice done to them. I Doubt it or you would not have that position for long. Do you think if you were sent to a foreign or another black country and one of your team got themselves in that situation you would say what you are saying. No because they would be on the first plane home in disgrace.
Negative perception brother is as bad as negative facts in the real world and when it comes to black men in particular. We can't have it both ways of saying the media demonises us and then have a soft line on behaviour which gives them fuel for their furnace. Do we expect a fair hearing from the white media or expect the black community to say there there there.
Brother those footballers probably did not give a rass at the time about anything or one as they had more important things to think about. You don't think about the team but expect the team to think about you when you f**k up and embarass us. Bro I been in organisations for over twenty years and I will tell you that sh*t will not fly We call it collective discipliine and you let down the team at your peril.
When a persons liberty is at stake every step must be taken to ensure justice - to ALL parties concerned.
Bro this is a discussion about something which got into the public domain due to their foolishness. Any discussion here is not going to have one jot of influence on the legal proceedings or the nature of the evidence relied on. So I am not sure about your argument there. All I have said is that these cats are idiots not that they raped anyone because how do we know that. We weren't there.
Attitudes about gender are minimally relevant - the pertinent issue is whether or not the alleged victim was raped. In deciding that - relevant factors like the sexual history of the alleged victim, the behaviour of the alleged victim and the motives of the alleged victim may all be mitigating factors, yet you and others want to exclude them.
Relevent to whom is the question bro. Not relevent to you maybe. But if you think the gender and race etc and other things involved are not relevent then I think you may be jumping the gun. Again you are talking about the details of the case which none of us are privy to and cannot comment on that level. Hence why it can only be dealt with on other levels, which I have attempted to do.
Let's deal with the argument that even she if consented she was under age. Well the girl in this latest story is reported to be 15 - girls get pregant at 12 in this country and are given contraception behind their parents backs but none of the lynch mob seem to make any noise about that. I've never heard of anyone being prosecuted for statutory rape in any of the cases involving under age pregnancies.
And what does that suggest bro, that we take the minimal moral stance based on what you have said. So if some girls are having sex at 14 and they are very active, then what? Are we then saying as soon as a young girl passes the legal age of majority then anything goes and she is up for grabs. Not all all.
Brother what has the fact that some children are given contraception behind their parent's back got to do with the argument at hand in any way whatsoever?
We might as well do away with the law on statutory rape because it is a total fiction.
Again different discussion.
But of course there's fun to be had when a Black Man is at the centre of the controversy. Opportunity aplenty to get up on our rocking horses and ride gallantly to defend the honour of woman.
Brother explain to me. Why would I as a black man who spent all his life with brothers and defending their interest beyond talk and argument would find fun in undermining black men. This struggle my brother for me is not a war of attacking black women, but each gender taking leadership and responsibity for the thing they, not white people control. When we can do that then we have a better basis for unity and forward movement. It would appear that any criticism of black men is seen as contary to what I have said.
Regarding your final comment. This issue is about rape and I can assure you the majority of black men who I know and on this forum have absolute contempt for rapist and their crimes and what it represents in every possible sense to innocent women and our own in particular. In the same way black men have done from the begining of time my dear brother including most of those who you would cite as your political heroes.
Defending the honour of our women where honour exists is a manly duty of all civilisations of men and black men in particular, its part of the job my brother whether it is our mothers god forbid, sisters or women who bless us with what they have in all shapes and forms and ways..I for one feel no shame in defending such honour and see it as my duty. As do most serious brothers. You seem to see a problem with that.
Sorry, I take a different view.
Last edited on Monday November 22nd, 2004 03:40 by Fredblack
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Sooofresh
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Posted: Monday November 22nd, 2004 11:14 |
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LOL
This is getting interesting
I mean "soulman," you did not even back your argument, so i repeat if YOU believe that women who wear short skirts "deserve" ooops I mean might get raped then that speaks volume as you as a person. yes "closet rapist"
"excuses" for rape is something any normal being will not accept, for once read what sir fredblack wrote
Anyway
let me get this straight
you say women who dress "sexy" should not advertise their goods for rapist to attack.
Fine
But
@all
lets not be blinded by a small group of women who get raped for "wearing a short skirt"
FACT , a large % of women that get raped
dress conservatly
on their way to work
targeted at school for peodophiles
raped by members of their own family
sooo
lets ban women working, wearing fashionable clothes, getting an education and ban them from family fuctions.
I tell you what
why don't women comprimse their lifestyle and get out of the pathway of the rapist.
hey why dont you just remain prisoners at your own home..... but raping can still occur within homes,
when all we have to do is keep rapist in prisons.
Sir Fred , what can i say, you are explaining the fundemntal rights of human beings, yet "closet rapist" sill unable to distinguish between being an animal or a human being.
I think I will leave it as that
soofresh dusts the dirt of her shoulder
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Backatya
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Posted: Monday November 22nd, 2004 11:32 |
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Isn’t it typical with a lot of these hot debates? You finish composing your carefully thought out and structured response and then come back to the boards to find that further comments made basically make yours redundant, unless you wish to repeat much of what has already been said. Brother Fred’s last, and most excellent post, hit on many of the points I covered in the post I have now decided to scrap.
However, I cannot leave this debate without putting in my two pence worth.
Firstly I want to say from the off that any points I make in respect of specific comments made by anyone here is no way intended as a personal disparagement, or attempt at ’side-taking’. I am dealing only with views expressed not personalities and hope that all understand where I am coming from.
I feel I have to say this because certain exchanges (on this thread and others) give me the impression that some things are, I am sad to say, being taken on a too personal level - which can only harm the quality and usefulness of debate. However, having said that, please accept that I express my views without malice or favour and if anyone wants to take them personally that is entirely their concern, not mine.
This thread started off with what now appears to be a false news header but has become an addendum to another thread about allegations made about 6 footballers. Though I (as with most of us here no doubt) know little of the true facts of the case, the wider issues it raises should be capable of discussion without it being seen as an all out attack on the 6 individuals involved. I have always maintained that it can be of value to discuss the general principles picked from specific situations, without it being a final judgement of that situation. And quite frankly, if you cannot debate general principles on a forum board where can you debate them.
In this thread mention was made of something called personal responsibility. I alluded to it in another thread, but this thread gives an opportunity to expand on my thinking.
It was said in this thread
‘the idea that has been expressed in this thread that personal responsibility is only expected in males not females’
Please note I am paraphrasing so if anyone thinks I am taking things said too much out of context as a result, I stand to be corrected.
Anyway, my view is that personal responsibility applies to everyone. It is not gender specific so if anyone did express that view, I for one totally disagree with them.
The thing about personal responsibility as it applies to a given situation, is that it ‘assumes’ people are ‘mentally competent’ and act with ’free will’. Mental competence I will touch on another time, but in the case of free will, it is about acting without being forced to take a particular course of action, but being able to choose according to ones own desires, ones own assessment and understanding of the situation.
So (example) if a woman I happen to fancy says to me “Let’s do a thing and don’t worry, it would be our secret, your wife will never know�. If I take up her proposition I have to be responsible for MY actions in the event of what transpires. She could be lying, could be setting me up or whatever, but unless she actually forces me to have sex with her I cannot absolve myself from the decision I freely made at the time. I choose to cheat on my wife (an act I knew was wrong) and freely took on the risk of the possible outcomes that could flow from that, such as being found out. The fact that I was tempted by a ‘devious and conniving Jezebel is no defence against that.
Likewise, if a woman is told by a man she fancies, that he really wants something serious with her and she (despite not intending to at first) has sex with him (unprotected) and falls pregnant. He then ups and leaves after getting what HE really wanted. She cannot absolve herself from responsibility for her actions on the grounds that he mislead her. She chose to put herself at the risk of getting pregnant with a man who had no ‘contractual commitment’ to her.
I hope that lays down the foundation of this principle of personal responsibility. It is something we owe to OURSELVES and denotes our need to look out for, and take care of, our own welfare and wellbeing irrespective of what others choose to do.
Now, notwithstanding this ‘burden’ of responsibility that we have to shoulder for our own wellbeing, there is the question of relative responsibility in a given situation. Though it is a case that both you and I hold personal responsibility for our part in a given situation it does not mean that the responsibility for what transpires from that situation falls on both of us equally. Again this has nothing to do with gender per se, but it is possible that ‘issues of gender’ may play a part in degree of relative responsibility each of us is assigned. Many things determine the degree of relative responsibility such as mental capacity, power and influence, age, seniority etc. etc, but as a general rule it can be said that ‘he/she who has the greater ability to dictate the outcome of a situation by virtue of a position of advantage he/she holds over the other, has the greater responsibility for the resultant outcome’ This may be a contentious point but what the heck, I love to put the cat among the pigeons.
You see, my thinking here is that the position of advantage I refer to is one that effectively nullifies or inhibits the process of free will. In other words it acts to restrict the ability of the other to choose. It may actually mean that the other person cannot be judged to have ANY personal responsibility for the situation.
Example: Take the case of say, a care worker sexually assaulting a mentally and physically disabled person in their care by coaxing them into doing things they do not have the mental capacity to understand or the physical capacity to resist. Even if they went along with it (e.g. showed no resistance at all) because they found the physical stimulation pleasing, ALL the responsibility still lies with the carer….and I am not talking from the standpoint of their contractual or legal responsibility as an employee.
However, that is an extreme case. Most situations would not be so clear cut when it comes to determining relative responsibility.
Applying these principles to the 6 footballers case (for example) - and notwithstanding the actual facts of the case which we do not know - can it be said that they and the girl shared a personal responsibility for the events that transpired?
Well we can only speculate in the absence of knowledge of the facts, but generally speaking you would expect most 15 year olds girls (well I would expect it of my 15 year old) to consider that going off with 6 guys (especially ones she does not know very well or at all) could be a bit of a risk. It would be in her best interest to avoid or refuse (where she is free to do so) such an opportunity. Of course, if she did even more by, say, acquiescing to sex with one (or more) of the guys with the others looking on, that would be even more foolhardy. Then should the situation get out of hand (such that they all joined in) and caused her physical harm, not to mention the psychological damage, you maybe compelled to say that she has to bear some personal responsibility for what happened to her. That is not the same as saying she deserved what she got….even stupid people do not deserve to have criminal acts perpetrated against them.
Then there is also the possibility (though I think remote) that she has some kind of warped ‘thrill seeking’ mentality whereby she deliberately set out to engineer a situation where all 6 would have sex with her. That would increase the degree or responsibility she has to shoulder. Mind you I said ‘remote’ because I would argue that the vast majority of women/girls (even those whose attitude to such matters may be considered ‘slack’) would not ‘willingly’ opt to be sexed by six guys at a time…..unless maybe it was for one of those warped ‘Reality’ TV shows.
Turning to the 6 guys now. Again, notwithstanding the facts of the case, how about THEIR responsibility for the events that transpired. Well, I have to say from the off, the equation of 6 guys to 1 girl is not an equal one, irrespective of what is going to go down. If I was a guy given the opportunity to ‘go back to someone’s house’ with 5 other guys and 1 girl, my spider senses would be ringing like mad. I would be like “Hey, what’s the 6 of us going to do with only one babe?�
Come now people, no matter how high your principles of fairness, justice and equality, are you not forced to concede that a situation like that presenting itself to any reasonably sensible male should give ‘cause for pause’? I mean, even if it seemed that the girl was really up for a good time, there would have to be something lacking in your moral judgement (I know I am making assumptions here) to consider getting in on something like that. Six guys and one girl?
Even if she is willing and rather naïve about what that entails, you as guy must surely know what that COULD entail?
There is also the issue of ‘power to influence outcome of events’ as it applies to relative responsibility. No way has that 1 girl (a girl remember not a woman) got the where for it all, to resist the will and force of 6 guys should they be determined to ‘Go For It’. Who possesses the most advantage when it comes to determining the outcome of events?
I would have to say that, notwithstanding any initial lack of personal responsibility on her part in ending up in room with 6 guys, those guys held the major advantage in determining the outcome of subsequent events.
Note: I am not passing judgement on the 6 guys, even though it may seem that way, I am only using their situation to illustrate a principle which would suggest that they (likely) held most of the cards, and thus were more free to choose than the girl once she found herself in that room.
There are aspects to this thing I wish to cover such as the whole thing about ‘women’s dress’ and ‘guilty by association’ concept. However, I will have to return to this debate later.
Respect
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N*E*R*D
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Posted: Monday November 22nd, 2004 11:34 |
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Soulmachine said
a man who rapes a woman is not a man , and where did i say a man has the right to rape a women?. im just saying women should take more responsility for thier actions
Im sorry bruv but thats a stupid and disgusting statement, let me tell you something that I should not even be telling you, years ago my best mates mum got raped taking his little sis to school, she got punched her in face then dragged her into an alley at 8:50am, what responsibility should she have taken for that pray tell...
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