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safetyblitz
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Posted: Tuesday July 19th, 2005 17:12 |
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Kunjufu wrote: Forum; just poking my head around the corner again, to say that this thread is presenting an excellent debate from both perspective..top draw quality stuff debates from either side..this one of those moments when one just shuts up, reads and reflects draw your own conclusion about right and wrong on this.....BLACKNET VILLAGE AT ITS BEST today brilliant
Yes it is cool to debate and not be insulted for a change or have to read 90% blah blach blah.......LOL Going to lunch and hope to see a great counter when I get back peeps 
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Breadfruit
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Posted: Tuesday July 19th, 2005 17:16 |
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safetyblitz wrote: Breadfruit wrote: safetyblitz wrote:
As far as judging MLK, look back at my argument on white people from what I have written to SoooFresh. MLK was about equality not African pride. You seem to have the two mixed.
disagree
mlk spoke for and about his people
any leader that has no pride in his people can never be called great
mlk spoke eloquently about the need for aficans in america to organise themselves in order to improve their condition
this was his main mission
equality could only exist after our people had "lifted themselves" with the help of our leaders
this i believe martin recognised
martin spoke about us getting to the "mountain top" as a people
this clearly showed us his understanding and postion on race and his place an african leader
with leadership comes responsibility and accountability
the contradictions of our historical figures are studied not only for academic or trivial purposes
but by activists who have to define new forms of leadership based upon the lessons of the past
inter-racial relationshps during the struggles is the 1960's - 1970s provided a foundation for such contradictons to fuel idealogical conflicts between african men and women activists which are still quoted today
making them of current working importance to brothers and sisters learning from our past
I have to disagree again. Breadfruit. MLK like most other civil rights leaders fought for civil rights which they also called EQUAL rights for black men. Not African unity. He only wanted to mobilize black people to unify for their equal rights meaning that they would be EQUAL to black men in this country. Not separate and unified like Malcolm X. This is one of the main differences between Shabazz and Dr. King early on besides their ways of accomplishing better black treatment in America.
MLK bought into the American melting pot theory. Shabazz did not. For Shabazz to cheat with a white woman on his platform, yes I could see people jumping on him on race. On MLK, he was trying to be EQUAL with white people period in terms of our rights. I cannot defend him for cheating on his wife, he was wrong, but not even wronger because it was a white woman because his fight was to be equal to white women and MLK preached love throughout all the races in America (looking at it as I write, I can see why LOL)
Again you are judging him on an African base, not as an African American. From what I have gathered Africans would like to kick White people out of their countries and unify those people within their country. African Americans on the other hand are fighting a similar but different battle on fact that we are attempting to become equal American citizens. True we are both fighting white people but with two different agendas.
This is something that I think you fail to see because the MOUNTAINTOP he saw was EQUALITY (to the rest of Americans) not Black Unity.
@safety
just for clarification i'm a pan africanist so when i say african (unless i specify differently) i mean africans on the continent and in diaspora
now for africans to get to mountain top in america, africans leaders like king were mobilising africans
this is what i mean when i say the man was an african leader, moving a race of people en mass
whether he personally wanted us to melt with whites is not so much the issue because he was a race leader
he was not a multi race leader in that king represented and spoke for africans living in america - this is the foundation for the contradiction
now in the actually working of this dynamic (mobilising africans), contradictons become problematic and have to be overcome
i have worked with activists from america and have been informed how part of the regression in the movement came from contradictons within activists themselves whether it was drugs, crimes, sellouts etc
this is all part of our history and you are quite right in your implications that we should be the ones writing our story but we should write it so we can move on
and that means looking at things we could have done better
Last edited on Tuesday July 19th, 2005 17:19 by Breadfruit
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Lucas...
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Posted: Tuesday July 19th, 2005 17:22 |
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interestin thread..
for some people it is apparent .... only see in terms of black vs white...
not good vs evil...
so most of what comes from there mouth is evil venom...
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Sooofresh
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Posted: Tuesday July 19th, 2005 17:27 |
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Kunjufu wrote: Forum; just poking my head around the corner again, to say that this thread is presenting an excellent debate from both perspective..top draw quality stuff debates from either side..this one of those moments when one just shuts up, reads and reflects draw your own conclusion about right and wrong on this.....BLACKNET VILLAGE AT ITS BEST today brilliant
=========================================================
ya get me!
when I read this thread, i was just half awake.............and then I read MLK had affairs with several white women.................first I though it was MAlcom X...........i could not believe my eyes........................
sorry sir.............i had to drag this sh*t up and debate....................this has affected me............................my gosh i never knew MLK had several affirs with white women...................i am still shocked.
@Safety blitz
okay ..........................MLK is okay..............uh uh uh..........Not GREAT though
Breadfruit.................yes SIR....................Dimoke..................yes SIS............
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Shariff
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Posted: Tuesday July 19th, 2005 18:25 |
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Burning Spear wrote: Shariff wrote:
Now, @Safetyblitz:
What's this about Malcolm being bisexual? Where did u hear that? Unless u heard it from someone in his family or inner circle, please don't repeat it on the world wide web.
Malcolm X - gay black hero?
On Malcolm X's 80 birthday, Peter Tatchell reveals the hidden gay past of the American black nationalist leader
Thursday May 19, 2005
The Guardian
Malcolm X was born 80 years ago today, on 19 May 1925. But amid the commemorations, controversy is brewing. Some black activists are enraged by suggestions that their hero might have been gay - or at least bisexual. The controversy has been stirring since the publication of Bruce Perry's acclaimed biography, Malcolm: The Life of a Man Who Changed Black America (Station Hill, New York) in 1991. Based on interviews with Malcolm's closest boyhood and adult friends, Perry suggests that the US black nationalist leader was not as robustly heterosexual as his Nation of Islam (NoI) colleagues have always insisted.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1486997,00.html#article_continue
Gee, thanks, Burning Spear, u just ruined my entire frigging day!
First, Mr. Bruce perry is suspect, whoever he is. U have to question his motives, considering that what "Detroit Red" did back in the day when he was running the streets has no bearing whatsoever on the man he became, Malcolm X.
Even if it's true, what is the point behind the article in the Guardian? Sounds like some Gay Rights shyt, looking for justification, doesn't it? Or yet another pathetic attempt by white supremacists to discredit a Black leader.
Either way, I wish I had never known that, but it makes no damn difference in my opinion of Malcolm X.
Now, lemme Phuck up someone else's day. I read that Marvin Gaye liked to wear women's underwear.
Makes u wonder what he meant when he sang "Let's get it on!"
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Liono
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Posted: Tuesday July 19th, 2005 20:05 |
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| Curry goat and rice
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Liono
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Posted: Tuesday July 19th, 2005 20:31 |
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| The ability to compromise and take resposibility.
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Taysense
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Posted: Thursday July 21st, 2005 21:32 |
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Malcolm X... Gay?
WHy do I think this fabrication is a ploy to get more black people.. AA'S specfically to be more open minded when it comes to homosexuality? really all it is specualtions about his childhood encounters and experimentations and unsubstantiated quotes.
Though I do agree that the absence of his father and male role moldels influenced his predilection for gangsters and drug dealing, I can't see it driving him to homosexuality.
...
Black men are being assaulted on all fronts.. all this obsession with feminizing the black man is getting sickening and dangerous... this constant attack on any man past or present exihibiting masculine needs to stop.
Malcolm X... Gay? I Refuse to believe it!
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Timeline
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Posted: Thursday July 21st, 2005 21:52 |
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Taysense wrote: Malcolm X... Gay?
WHy do I think this fabrication is a ploy to get more black people.. AA'S specfically to be more open minded when it comes to homosexuality?
This doesn't even make sense....
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Taysense
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Posted: Thursday July 21st, 2005 22:27 |
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eh?... what doesn't?..
The fact that most African-Americans are conservative when it comes to homosexuality ie agianst it? ( I'm speaking in general, and no I don't have the numbers to prove it.)
Now.. My point was that the article's agenda and American liberals, is to force their opinions on us especially when it's concenerning homosexuality and their equal rights Bull.
And this their way of identifying with Black-Americans by saying... hey look even your leader was gay and he repressed, so it's all natural.
Fags Aint natural!
....
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Timeline
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Posted: Friday July 22nd, 2005 03:32 |
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Taysense wrote: eh?... what doesn't?..
The fact that most African-Americans are conservative when it comes to homosexuality ie agianst it? ( I'm speaking in general, and no I don't have the numbers to prove it.)
Now.. My point was that the article's agenda and American liberals, is to force their opinions on us especially when it's concenerning homosexuality and their equal rights Bull.
And this their way of identifying with Black-Americans by saying... hey look even your leader was gay and he repressed, so it's all natural.
Fags Aint natural!
I know exactly what "your point was" and I'm saying that if you just look at the reaction here to the info on Malcolm X you will understand that this information about Malcolm X being passed around is meant to hurt his image not make African-American's more accepting of homosexuality. Where you came up with your conclusion...I don't know. Maybe your last sentence: "Fags Ain't natural" will give you insight into your own paranoia.
....
Last edited on Friday July 22nd, 2005 10:41 by
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Taysense
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Posted: Friday July 22nd, 2005 10:25 |
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yes paranoia that must be it. where do these people come from....
I don't know about you, but I don't think IMO they were out to hurt Malcolm X's image intentionally, I'm guessing it was wrirtten by a homosexual gay activist and this is his way of allying himself with the community that shunned and rejected his activities and give meaning to his sordid existence.
A scheme to include themselves in the greater black-american community, it's not subtle, I don't know how you didn't pick it up.
Now it is time to blow the whistle. There is not a single world-famous black person who is openly gay. Young black lesbians and gays need role models. Who better than Malcolm X, one of the inspirations of my activism and one of the great modern heroes of black liberation?
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Backatya
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Posted: Friday July 22nd, 2005 10:37 |
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@ Timeline and Taysense
This has been quite a stimulating and interesting thread so far, so I hope you two are not about to spoil it by getting it stagnated on the 'gay' issue. Remember the title is about great men versus ordinary men, not gays versus everyone else.
Can we get back on topic?
Respect
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Taysense
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Posted: Friday July 22nd, 2005 10:49 |
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Blacktaya
not much on the "gay" issue... but more on the duplicities of the above article..
anyways I digress...
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Breadfruit
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Posted: Saturday July 23rd, 2005 16:45 |
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vision seems to be a key attribute of great men
anybody wish to expand on a definition of vision?
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The Watcher
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Posted: Saturday July 23rd, 2005 16:51 |
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@ breadfruit
Chess grandmaster like ability to see many moves into the future. A man who can see the big picture and more importantly how he can change it. With vision he can bear the stress of the present difficulties and obstacles because he can see where they lead, he doesn't get downhearted.
Same way a chess player can sacrifice a two knights and a bishop to mate his opponent, he knows he can face hardship and things like disbelief from his own side but sees to keep moving...
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Breadfruit
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Posted: Saturday July 23rd, 2005 18:46 |
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@dm
you couldn't have made it any clearer
brilliant perspective bro
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Timeline
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Posted: Saturday July 23rd, 2005 21:19 |
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DrunkMonkey wrote: @ breadfruit
Chess grandmaster like ability to see many moves into the future. A man who can see the big picture and more importantly how he can change it. With vision he can bear the stress of the present difficulties and obstacles because he can see where they lead, he doesn't get downhearted.
Same way a chess player can sacrifice a two knights and a bishop to mate his opponent, he knows he can face hardship and things like disbelief from his own side but sees to keep moving...
DM do you think that too much concentration on the vision for the future can obscure actuality i.e. the "here and now" moment-to-moment since that is what we live while dreaming of the future. I guess that obsession with future accomplishments has made many successful and effective in making an impact but does it give them tunnel vision and blind them to their own actuality?
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The Watcher
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Posted: Sunday July 24th, 2005 07:00 |
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@ BF
thanks
@ Timeline
Possibly, though maybe that comes down to perspective. We who are not great and don't share the vision don't see the why of the situation in the here and now...
Id say that without that sort of far seeing vision then nothing would get done. If you live for the here and now only you can not plan and build long term strategies and furthermore are unprepared to meet the challengers posed by enemies who do. They will catch you off guard each time.
With our limited perspective not being that of the man of vision, a rift can develop between leader and follower. He who sees the point of the struggle in the big picture and he who only thinks of present difficulty... That is where another facet of leadership comes in... communication. The big leaders sweep us along and carry us to their vision with charisma and how they communicate their ideas...
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Posted: Sunday July 24th, 2005 14:05 |
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Added to what DM has said....it is about the manipulation of the here and now...in order to achieve your future goals...
Similar to a first/second year student at university...future goal to pass the degree...with a FIRST...how they manipulate and plan their here and now is how they are going to achieve it....that is...sucking up to lecturers and examiners (possibly sleeping with them)...getting study notes of your study buddies (not your real friends just using them)...getting that girl that likes you so much to actually do your assignment as she is also an A grade student...
Others may not know why they are keeping that ugly, spotty four-eyed nerdy girl sweet...or being friendly with the lecturer who is a prick...or is hanging with the people they choose to...but said person had a vision and their way to implement it...
Simply manipulating the here and now to attain your vision..not forgetting the here and now...the day to day grind...because that is how you achieve your vision and implement your future dreams...
Last edited on Sunday July 24th, 2005 14:08 by MyThoughts
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Saida.M
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Posted: Sunday July 24th, 2005 14:07 |
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Breadfruit - trying not to get too off topic but...
Why men?
I feel that women would be more able to get things done and still remain suitably untarnished.
Anyway what separates great men from ordinary men? - simple - great men do stuff to help uplift himself along with his others - ordinary men don't.
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Breadfruit
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Posted: Sunday July 24th, 2005 14:51 |
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athaba wrote:
Breadfruit - trying not to get too off topic but...
Why men?
I feel that women would be more able to get things done and still remain suitably untarnished.
no problem sis
men and women are different
and in this difference i see different ways for us to express ourselves
men and women will behave in different ways
now, what type of behavior/activity makes for a great man
is the topic of this thread
and in this there is no intended implication that every quoted attribute cannot also belong to great women
but the thread is gender specific
as men and women have for themselves specific problems
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Posted: Tuesday July 26th, 2005 15:37 |
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jazztalking wrote: A great man is a black man who endures a failing relationship or marriage for the sakes of his children's future.
@jazz
profoundly poignant!
@all
how many posters see "everyday people", family and friends in the same light as some of the so called great men in history?
is it possible (and its the implication i took from from jazztalkings post) to take men like martin luther king and put his contributions to our struggle on the same level as say your father's contribution to our joint developmemt.
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Posted: Tuesday July 26th, 2005 15:58 |
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Breadfruit
is it possible (and its the implication i took from from jazztalkings post) to take men like martin luther king and put his contributions to our struggle on the same level as say your father's contribution to our joint developmemt.
Yes it certainly is. The man in your village who saved his money and built a well is your hero... The man in you community who started an action group to start a civil suit against murderous police is a hero in your area... Being unsung does not make a man less great. That way would be allowing the media to choose who our heros or great men are.
On a more personal level you may define for yourself and more importantly for your descendants who the heros in your family were. Did you have an uncle who saved lots of people in a war? A father who was part of a liberation struggle? An uncle who fought and joined his people in a war for independance? Did your grandfather build up wealth and spread it throughout your community. Those are yours and your familys great men.
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