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safetyblitz
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Posted: Monday July 18th, 2005 21:27 |
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@SoooFresh
 So you are saying that he would be cool with you if he had cheated on his wife with black women?
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Sooofresh
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Posted: Monday July 18th, 2005 21:40 |
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@safetyblitz
one step at a time
first I come from origins were adultry is serious and can result in loss of head..............so do not be surprised if i do not take the western softly softly approach
second..............yes colour is an issue................like the example of Rosa Parks...........do you think anyone would respect her or her cause if she slept with same bus driver that told her to sit at the back
what is wrong with you people.................." I have a dream" ................so what
Respect is given when you show it....................a great man starts at his immediate enviornment.............AT HOME
so i don't give a rats ass if XYZ donated millions to help absued children............and then abuses his own children.
................we are already overtaken by coconut celebrities..................to add civil rights "leader" would just confuse any child.
MLK Banned from the Sooofresh household..............
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Burning Spear
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Posted: Tuesday July 19th, 2005 00:26 |
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dimoke wrote: Burning Spear wrote:
To answer dimoke analysis.
Lumumba -Sometimes people measure the potential and not the results.
 NO...NO...BS we have been this road before.....so don't even think about it....the fact of the matter is, like YOU think MLK was the greatest, WE also believe Lumumba was the bomb....so don't go there.......
Dimoke,
Agreed.Maybe its time I take a look from another perspective and respect their opinion.
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Burning Spear
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Posted: Tuesday July 19th, 2005 00:29 |
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Sooofresh wrote: @safetyblitz
one step at a time
first I come from origins were adultry is serious and can result in loss of head..............so do not be surprised if i do not take the western softly softly approach
second..............yes colour is an issue................like the example of Rosa Parks...........do you think anyone would respect her or her cause if she slept with same bus driver that told her to sit at the back
what is wrong with you people.................." I have a dream" ................so what
Respect is given when you show it....................a great man starts at his immediate enviornment.............AT HOME
so i don't give a rats ass if XYZ donated millions to help absued children............and then abuses his own children.
................we are already overtaken by coconut celebrities..................to add civil rights "leader" would just confuse any child.
MLK Banned from the Sooofresh household..............
Sooo fresh.You are young and very sheltered.In time you'll learn.
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Posted: Tuesday July 19th, 2005 09:35 |
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To me, a Great Man is one who can face his imperfections and deal with being human. If you sell a superhuman image then there is always the risk that you will buy into your own exaggerated image and forget who's underneath. I always admire a man who can admit to his mistakes and imperfections and accept them, a man who remembers who he is after others have deemed him something else...
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Backatya
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Posted: Tuesday July 19th, 2005 11:14 |
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DrunkMonkey wrote: SF
I don't think it's advisable to assess a man like MLK based on a few human weaknesses. Nobody is perfect and nobody is a superhuman. Im far away from being a good person so I can hardly look back at the heroes (who died in our cause) and criticise them on trivialities...
Judge him as an African hero by what he did with his activism and actual deeds and the millons of people he inspired... that's what makes a hero! It's about what they meant to you, the person inside a legend will never live up to that legend if examined under FBI microscope but it is the legend to the people that matters.
DrunkMonkey
I would tend to agree with you if these 'human weaknesses'
a) occured during the 'early years' at a time when he is building into a man worthy of leading others.
b) were not fundamental to the 'grand principle' at hand....i.e. the issue of black people's rights under the 'rule' of white people.
For me it is fundamental that any great black man who speaks for the cause of black people is seen to be true and loyal to the black woman. Don't get me wrong, I can excuse the odd affair (that weakness I can overlook). However, I cannot overlook 'hankering after white flesh'. Not at the height of your supposed 'greatness'.
I understand that before he became the Great Civil Rights Leader we all know, he was very much in love with this white woman (can't recall her name) he met a college, whom (it was claimed) he wanted to marry. However, the racial climate at the time certainly did not allow for such a union.......he probably would not have survived to make his mark if he had tried to pursue that course of action. So I am given to wonder how much part the hurt of that particular 'love's lost cause' played in his commitment to the Civil Right's Movement. Would he have married a black woman at all if the racial climate made it more acceptable to marry the white woman he desired. The fact that even in his later years he had affairs with white women can be said to be an indication of his 'preferred' leanings.
Just my personal opinion, but sorry, I see a rejection of the your race on any level as something which diminishes your position in the Hall of Fame for 'Achievers in the fight for the Cause of African/Black people.
Show me a 'Leader' (a man that is) in the realm of the White Man who shows an equivalent preference for black flesh.
There are 'human weaknesses' and there are FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES!
Respect
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dimoke
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Posted: Tuesday July 19th, 2005 11:47 |
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Backatya wrote:
Show me a 'Leader' (a man that is) in the realm of the White Man who shows an equivalent preference for black flesh.
There are 'human weaknesses' and there are FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES!
Enough said!
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Backatya
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Posted: Tuesday July 19th, 2005 12:12 |
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Just to add to my last post that I don't want to give the impression that I disagree MLK was a 'Great' man. It would be ludicrous not to acclaim a man who had the impact he had on the dismantling of 'apartheid' in America, as Great. Not only that but one cannot look on a man's greatness only in the context of his own 'personal' achievements without giving consideration to the impetus/inspiration he gives/gave to others for them to go on and attain their own Greatness (even unsung achievement), or to leave their mark on history. I would not even begin to guess at the impact MLK's had on inspiring others in taking up, and 'making a difference' in, the cause of black people's fight for equality.
No I am not denying the greatness of his achievement. I am just saying that for me his personal legacy has been tarnished by his desire for white women. It does not undo what was achieved in his space and time, but I think these achievements would have been even more significant if done against the backdrop of a 'Strong Black Man standing proud, commited and loyal next to his Strong Black Woman....not only symbolically (i.e. just for the cameras) but in reality.....i.e. showing a deep and unwavering love for his black woman.
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The Watcher
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Posted: Tuesday July 19th, 2005 12:20 |
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Urgh
This revisionist history is sickening me... I never would have expected somebody like Martin Luther King to be so poorly discussed on blacknet... what are they teaching in schools?
All you are quoting is "I have a dream" and calling him an intergrationist as if all he did was make happy clappy speeches and sing Kumbaya? FFS!!
Malcom got people up and FORCED change in civil rights laws... this was aparhied in USA and the man DIED trying to fight it. Getting up in front of the worst klan infested areas and police setting dogs on them, hosing them down with water cannons and holding who knows how many beatings... And there were RESULTS. SEISMIC shifts in America because of that man. Black people working towards rights they did not have...
Now you can only call him a frigging 'intergrationist'
You people break it down to this? Im proper dissapointed.
It's like saying Jesus was a coward because he was bawling and crying in the garden of Gethsemane.... complete nonsense.
What has happened is that instead of celebrating our heroes, recent historians have been playing them off against each other and forced people to celebrate EITHER Malcolm OR Martin... and we fall for it... Complete nonsense....
Martin was a great man. For all those who don't know any better, I suggest you do some serious reading before you merely parrot what may have been heard on this or that website...
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Tuesday July 19th, 2005 12:35 |
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DrunkMonkey: Whilst I agree in part with your points, can i just point out that maybe some people feel let down ,(Which is very natural). After they had been fed a false diet of who MLK actually was...
Remember we were fed that he was this great man of high morals & principals, so imagine the shock when you discover that he was running after 'white' women at the same time apart from the obvious shock, people feel let down.
I know how i felt when i first heard these claims, I was gobsmacked i refused to believe it, however when you have people who knew him, liked him and were close to him confirming these allegations its a flippin shock..
What i will say is that on reflection it later occurred to me that, all great leaders have their contradictions, that in some ways is what made them great.. When i think of Malcolm X, had he been around today he would be discredit as a criminal.. remembering that he robbed, sold drugs, whitified himself and did just about every disgusting crime and habit under the sun..
But he proved more than anything the POWER of change, the strenght to adaot and set aside disgusting ways and for me it was this that made him truely GREAT!!!! So maybe Soofresh on reflection might come to realise that all leaders black & white have contradictions that does not detract from their greatness, it just makes them human..
Although that said Backatya is right, chasing white women at the height of Black oppression by whites is a serious serious contradiction that cannot be ignored..
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Burning Spear
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Posted: Tuesday July 19th, 2005 13:12 |
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Kunjufu,
Please do not assume that MLK spent all his off hours"chasing white ho's".I seriously doubt in 1950's/60's America there was little room for that.It may have occured.Again look at the source of that misinformation and then come back.
What is jomo Kenyatta was a wife beater? What if Lumumba was a drug addict? What if Garvey was a drunk? Does that take away from what they accomplished?
As DM said folks need to dig deeper into the man. Here are his views on Vietnam.
http://wrybread.com/misc/vietnam/martin_luther_king_on_vietnam.mp3
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Sooofresh
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Posted: Tuesday July 19th, 2005 13:20 |
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Kunjufu wrote: So maybe Soofresh on reflection might come to realise that all leaders black & white have contradictions that does not detract from their greatness, it just makes them human..
=========================================================
sorry
big differnce between Malcom X who LEARNED from his mistakes and PERMENANTLY changed..................and MLK................who is quiet frankly after finding out in Blacknet is no difference from the next CLOWN.
sorry when are we going to stop using "he is only human"......................it makes me think if he really was concerned about civial rights.........
let me explain....................
MLK......................moraless......................whos only "agenda" is to integrate with white people so that he can fulfill his fetish for white women.........................and he used the Civial right movement NOT for black people , but for his own "objectives"
I swear
any of my nieces, nephews or young cousins even as much whisper his name...........they will get smacked back to Sudan.
MLK...............banned from ANY great list.
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efenjee
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Posted: Tuesday July 19th, 2005 13:31 |
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Burning Spear wrote:
What is jomo Kenyatta was a wife beater? What if Lumumba was a drug addict? What if Garvey was a drunk? Does that take away from what they accomplished?
I wouldn't say these failings would take anything away from what they accomplished but they definitely have a bearing on how 'great' they are as 'men'. That means, they may be brilliant in a particular role but no man can be a 'great' man if he beats his wife senseless, is addicted to drugs or drink, is a paedophile, prefers to be shagged up the arse by anonymous strangers to having deep and meaningful relationships with members of the opposite sex... get the picture?
A man that has achieved great things for the civil rights movement is just that...a man that has achieved great things for the civil rights movement. If we find that the same man used to beat up his mother and steal money from her bag while he was achieving great things in the public arena, there is no way he can be described as a 'great man' and separated from 'ordinary' men who may not have achieved great things for tons of people but is doing right by those around him and leading a good, clean, upright life and not hurting anybody.
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efenjee
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Posted: Tuesday July 19th, 2005 13:34 |
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Sooofresh wrote:
a great man starts at his immediate enviornment.............AT HOME
so i don't give a rats ass if XYZ donated millions to help absued children............and then abuses his own children.
Two excellent points.
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Burning Spear
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Posted: Tuesday July 19th, 2005 14:21 |
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Sooofresh
MLK......................moraless......................whos only "agenda" is to integrate with white people so that he can fulfill his fetish for white women.........................
Stopped reading right there when it became obvious that a child is in an adult conversation.
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safetyblitz
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Posted: Tuesday July 19th, 2005 14:36 |
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Backatya wrote: DrunkMonkey wrote: SF
I don't think it's advisable to assess a man like MLK based on a few human weaknesses. Nobody is perfect and nobody is a superhuman. Im far away from being a good person so I can hardly look back at the heroes (who died in our cause) and criticise them on trivialities...
Judge him as an African hero by what he did with his activism and actual deeds and the millons of people he inspired... that's what makes a hero! It's about what they meant to you, the person inside a legend will never live up to that legend if examined under FBI microscope but it is the legend to the people that matters.
DrunkMonkey
I would tend to agree with you if these 'human weaknesses'
a) occured during the 'early years' at a time when he is building into a man worthy of leading others.
b) were not fundamental to the 'grand principle' at hand....i.e. the issue of black people's rights under the 'rule' of white people.
For me it is fundamental that any great black man who speaks for the cause of black people is seen to be true and loyal to the black woman. Don't get me wrong, I can excuse the odd affair (that weakness I can overlook). However, I cannot overlook 'hankering after white flesh'. Not at the height of your supposed 'greatness'.
I understand that before he became the Great Civil Rights Leader we all know, he was very much in love with this white woman (can't recall her name) he met a college, whom (it was claimed) he wanted to marry. However, the racial climate at the time certainly did not allow for such a union.......he probably would not have survived to make his mark if he had tried to pursue that course of action. So I am given to wonder how much part the hurt of that particular 'love's lost cause' played in his commitment to the Civil Right's Movement. Would he have married a black woman at all if the racial climate made it more acceptable to marry the white woman he desired. The fact that even in his later years he had affairs with white women can be said to be an indication of his 'preferred' leanings.
Just my personal opinion, but sorry, I see a rejection of the your race on any level as something which diminishes your position in the Hall of Fame for 'Achievers in the fight for the Cause of African/Black people.
Show me a 'Leader' (a man that is) in the realm of the White Man who shows an equivalent preference for black flesh.
There are 'human weaknesses' and there are FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES!
Respect
Apparently, you missed the part of his speech, where he said that "I have a dream, that all men are created equal" huh? LOL So in his eyes if all men were created equal, cheating with a white woman and a black woman is the same logically if you stripped the emotion out of it right?
I have to lean toward SoooFresh on him cheating on his wife period with any color woman. I lost respect for him as a preacher when I found that out, but never for what he accomplished for me as a basic MAN and the freedoms I enjoy today because of it.
As for your argument against Drunk Monkey on white leaders fathering black children or having white mistresses, you are WRONG. Many white leaders here have fathered black children and like MLK kept them in the dark. Take Strom Thurmond for example. He was THE leading segregationist and a LONG time Senator here and he had a black child. Hell he ran for President against Truman on a presidential ticket that was partly based on the separation of the races and he had a black child.
Thomas Jefferson one of our presidents fathered many black children. Even built Monticello for his mistress. Which has caused a great commotion today on his white and black decescendents.
John McCain off the subject adopted a Bangladeshi kid (not black but still here, white is white) and he is a strong Republican from AZ where they are so racist, they won't even have a holiday to celebrate the civl rights leader. How can you be racist enough to vote against a vacation day? LOL Yet still this man is not friendly with any other races in public, but behind closed doors, what does he really think and do?
There are many more here. My country is full of people with contradictions who did great things or were in positions of leadership. Which really makes me question on how deep you get into the history of our country as a whole.
Again I do not think that the problem is all that MLK cheated with a lot of white women. It could have been 1 for all we know and the myth grew. The same as cats have been saying for years the Malcolm X was bisexual am I supposed to believe that bisexuality just stops cold turkey? Once a d/l brother always a d/l brother from what I have seen. So how could MLK give up his love of white women or X give up his love of men? The NOI hides a lot of things and hiding Mac X's bisexual side has to be one of them.
Which says more are you judging him again as a man with flaws who did something great or your view as an African God? Do we judge them as humans?
Like I said as a NON- African American, it does not bother me on how you feel on MLK because over all his civil rights push for love of his race, for the love of white women, or to keep from getting his butt kicked for sitting at the front of the bus, kept me and other AA's from having to ever have a memory of segregation. I am of the first generation born after segregation here and trust me there is a big difference when you hear the people 10 years older than myself speak on it. For you he has did nothing and you not seeing him as a great man is your call. However it is amazing that he is being judged on his crossing of color when Malcolm X started to befriend white people as well when he recognized that all Muslims are not black people. Muslims are of many shades as well. So to me if you cannot recognize one on color how can you recognize the other? If you are basing it on simply on violating his vows to his wife, I can see it. Logically.
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Sooofresh
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Posted: Tuesday July 19th, 2005 14:48 |
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@safetyblitz
so from what I gather......................you ado not care about the origins of the source as long as you benfit from it.
so whether MLK was moraless and a coconut is not important , just as long as you get to sit at the front of the bus with whites...............
talk about NO PRIDE
sorry
how can you be sure that MLK real agenda behind Civil rights movement is to fulfil "his Dream" of being with his first love.......a white woman...........................
It has been written that he is greatly hurt by not being able to feel up white women and hence used the civial rights movement for his own agenda
TRAITOR, FRAUD and SHAMBLES....................
his poor wife, still loyal to him................she is stupid...............
MLK............Banned from even being refered to as a MAN.
LOL
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safetyblitz
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Posted: Tuesday July 19th, 2005 15:19 |
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Well SoooFresh I judge him for his effect he had on my life. Even if his motive was to sleep with white women. He still stood up bravely in white america's face. Something that no other powerful black person besides Malcolm X did. For all I know if Malcolm had lived he would have supported the gay liberation movement and a lot of people would not have known why. Would this have caused me to look down upon him? No. Question his motives maybe, but still for the effect that he had I still would see him as a great man with flaws.
MLK's quest was more about sitting at the front of the bus with whites or sleeping with them, it was about the freedom to get an education, the freedom to vote, freedom to enjoy the rights of all americans which meant life itself instead of the 4/5ths of a man as we were declared to be. We were set free in 1865, but we were not fully freed until the 1960's. It is hard to separate who actually fought for our freedoms back in the 1960's. Again which makes me wonder how much Black American history you know. Not trying to be mean or insulting lil sister. Check this.
Edgar Ray Killen was convicted of murdering three civil rights workers from the 1960s in Mississippi. Did you know that two of those civil rights workers were white? I mean what made them risk their life in mississippi at that time when being called a N****r lover was worse than being black itself? You would be hanged alongside the black people you loved. Yet these two paid the ultimate sacrifice. Should I honor them less for advancing civil rights because they were white?
White people too worked in the civil rights movement. Look at a film again on a march and you will see white people marching as well and you will see some black people standing on the sidelines. Who was taking the bigger risk? The marching white people or black people standing on the sides scared to get involved? I don't believe all of white america view us as below them, but then again, I don't believe there is a double digit percentage that view us as equals either. Still saying, you have to look at MLK's logical platform to see it from his view. To say he was not a great man for cheating on his wife based on his principles as a Reverend, I can see, but to twist it because it was a white woman is just illogical to me. Then again, I have to factor in that you are a black woman and hate all black men who sleep with anyone that is not black.
Lil sis MLK remember was going for equality. Not African pride. I think that is what you fail to see. I mean I could say that Lumumba was a convicted thief 3 years before he became the leader of the Congo, which I am sure he was working toward African unity at that time as well, but should I think any less of his accomplishments because of his greed at the time? Do we know the whole story? The same as with MLK when it comes to a white media.............
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Posted: Tuesday July 19th, 2005 15:21 |
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Sooofresh wrote: @safetyblitz
so from what I gather......................you ado not care about the origins of the source as long as you benfit from it.
so whether MLK was moraless and a coconut is not important , just as long as you get to sit at the front of the bus with whites...............
talk about NO PRIDE
sorry
how can you be sure that MLK real agenda behind Civil rights movement is to fulfil "his Dream" of being with his first love.......a white woman...........................
It has been written that he is greatly hurt by not being able to feel up white women and hence used the civial rights movement for his own agenda
TRAITOR, FRAUD and SHAMBLES....................
his poor wife, still loyal to him................she is stupid...............
MLK............Banned from even being refered to as a MAN.
LOL
i promised my self i would never type to u again...but i have come to the conclusion that u are either ignorant, sheltered...or u just need to grow the phuck up...don't bother with a reply... u seem to be a kid trying to play with the grown folks...ur opinions exibit very little little knowledge of self or life in general...
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Tuesday July 19th, 2005 15:29 |
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BlueHoney: I respect you a lot, you have a different type of personality that is very unique and long may it continue..but in this instance I think you are being a bit unreasonable and unfair on Soofresh..
Her point is valid we don't have to agree with it or like but she does have a point on MLK.. our position therefore is to present evidence that will refute her view of MLK.. if WE can't then ultimately she is right about him and his principles..
I think the other personal stuff was uncalled for personally and as i know you dislike it when others do it to you..My feeling is you just leave off that and stick to the subject..
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Backatya
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Posted: Tuesday July 19th, 2005 15:48 |
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@ Safetyblitz
I have to bow to your knowledge or white leaders over there in the States, but I can claim not be aware of many examples over this side of the water. Again I am willing to be educated by those who have more knowledge than I of such facts. Mind you I am not really that concerned with finding examples of white leaders hankering after black. It does impact on the things I hold dear as much as when a black leader hanker after white.
However, before you get to wrapped up in my 'feelings' about MLK let me point out that I am using him really as an example of the 'Fundamental Principle' I referred to rather than just a object of my disdain......for I certainly do not hold him in disdain. It is just that for me his personal Greatness (as opposed to the things he made possible or the changes he influenced) is diminished because of his 'weakness' for white women. That is it pure and simple.
I think the evidence is fairly indisputable of his love of the white woman (damn, the man cheated again and again on his black wife with them), but I am not about to labour that point. And yes, I do make a distinction between him cheating with white women as opposed to black women. True, both are still an afront to his wife and on principle are no different. But a high a profile Black man standing as an icon for the cause of Black People whilst cavorting with white women is a fundamental element in MY assessment of that person Greatness. This stands true whether it be MLK (who just happens to be the focus for the purpose of discussion) or any prominent black man, or indeed if it is visa versa with a black woman of prominence.
Listen, the character or nature of a person goes to the core and though we as human beings are apt to overlook the core issue and excuse many evils because a person is nice, rich, good-looking, has great teeth, does good charity work, or whatever, we need to be able to stand back sometimes and consider what really does lie beneath the niceness, the wealth, the good looks or the fine work, particular when the facts are pushed in our face. That is not to say those outward effects have no value (of course MLK achievements have wide ranging value), but if we are to set aside core princip |
