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yogi
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Posted: Wednesday July 12th, 2006 17:54 |
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Last edited on Sunday July 16th, 2006 16:48 by yogi
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Saida.M
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Posted: Wednesday July 12th, 2006 18:27 |
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| Why was you made manager?
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People readily believe lies before they believe the truth
"One of the heads of the beast seemed to have been fatally wounded, but the wound had healed. The whole earth was amazed and followed the beast".
Good News Bible. Rev. Ch.13 V.3
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Wednesday July 12th, 2006 19:49 |
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Yogi
I have a feeling that you’re not going to like my advice, however it is a honestly held view based on the details you have offered thus far. As there are many parts to this scenario I’m going to break up my response into sections
The difficulties as I see them are not just with the troublemaker, there is a systemic problem within the organisation in which you work. ie: clearly there is no formal training, induction or support for new managers like yourself to become competent in their role…that is a big concern.
I am also concerned that you have been promoted to the role of manager without the apparent experience, skills set or competence for that role.. Further that you have been given the most difficult person to manage. It begs the obvious question why were you were put in that position in the first place… I have some suspicions?
However before I give you my advice on dealing with this situation in a safe way for yourself. I must I feel advise you that if the situation you described continues, ie you consistently get no proper direction, advice or support from your line manager.. You must IMO seriously consider your position, because in any language to remain would be professional suicide.
Ok lets move onto how to manage a potentially difficult situation, Can I say the first bit of really good advice I was ever given as a leader of people, was to remember that you can’t change attitudes only behaviours..I think you should remember that always.
On that note…first advice..step back and reflect…. If possible find yourself a moral compass. He or she will be that person in or outside of the company who will tell it to you straight, whether you like it or not!!!…you will need that if you’re to overcome this difficult situation appropriately.
Second piece of advice…STOP asking and STOP begging your manage… as a MANAGER it is your job to direct him, by clearly stating what it is you want, why you want it and the implications (employment wise) if it is not supported. In a nut shell TAKE CHARGE..
to do that you need research all the circumstances and be very clear that you know what you can realistically do within disciplinary process and what you can’t. That means you need to be conversant with the staff handbook/manual, you also need to set up an URGENT meeting with HR, to discuss the case and be firm that you need options to contain the situation.
Once you’re clear about the staffing procedures, you need to confront this woman’s behaviour within the formal disciplinary process… But only if you are secure in the knowledge that you have the FULL support of HR and your manager…if not reread my last bullet point advice and ACT!!!
What you should be doing in the mean time is recording her behaviour, logging times context and the comments made. (this is vital as you will need to present this to HR, as part of your initial discussion with them).
Please do NOT involve the police at this stage..why!!? because you will end up looking like a damn fool and you diminish your position still further with her and your other colleagues.
What HR if they are any good will advise you to do is this......to send her a nice carefully worded letter reminding her of company policy about inappropriate use of telephones for personal use. My first port of call however would be to MENTION this in the next team meeting..so you have properly warned people..
Also make her aware of the companies policy on threatening behaviours. Key words ‘advise’ and ‘remind’ DO NOT ACCUSE her, do not make any allegations you cannot prove 100% beyond doubt… Beyond doubt means in accordance to the laws of the land, not what you think, not what you felt happened, it means what you can legitimately prove, otherwise you will I promise you, be made to look a fool later on down the line..
As the manager you, must not react to her behaviour when it happens, you need to respond, key word RESPOND once you have made sense of the issues, discussed it and then identified clearly the work issues you want to address… at that point a nice memo requesting her presence is required/or better still it should be raised and noted in the supervision record as a CONCERN.. Key word concern..
You should simultanuosly keep raising her conduct as a CONCERN to your manager, and if he does not do supervision records..you MUST email him confirming your discussion and the fact that you have raised these concerns.. you should tag these emails to ensure it was received and read by him…and keep a copy of the EVIDENCE..
What you should have built up if you do you job properly is a weight of evidence to support a lack of support, should you have a case of harassment brought against you, or caperbility.. Or more importantly you will have a paper trail demonstrating how often you have raised concerns with this woman…this will lend weight to any disciplinary should it come down to that… I suspect however she will catch on after a bit and cool her heels, if she doesn’t then you will be able to get rid.. its called win win scenario!!!
Last point there are no short cuts or easy options, if you fail to do this work you will be the one who will utimately pay the professionally price for such laziness, so bare that in mind ok!!!
K..
Last edited on Thursday July 13th, 2006 17:31 by Kunjufu
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yogi
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Posted: Wednesday July 12th, 2006 21:19 |
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Kunjufu wrote: Yogi
I have a feeling that you’re not going to like my advice, however it is a honestly held view based on the details you have offered thus far. As there are many parts to this scenario I’m going to break up my response into sections
The difficulties as I see them are not just with the troublemaker, they are a systemic problem within the organisation in which you work. ie: clearly there is no formal training, induction or support for new managers like yourself to become competent in their role…that is a big concern.
I am also concerned that you have been promoted to the role of manager without the apparent experience, skills set or competence for that role.. Further that you have been given the most difficult person to manage. It begs the obvious question why were you put in that position in the first place… I have some suspicions?
.
However before I give you my advice on dealing with this situation in a safe way for yourself. I must I feel advise you that if the situation you described continues, ie you consistently get no proper direction, advice or support from your line manager.. You must IMO seriously consider your position, because in any language to remain would be professional suicide.
Ok lets move onto how to manage a potentially difficult situation, Can I say the first bit of really good advice I was ever given as a leader of people, was to remember that you can’t change attitudes only behaviours..I think you should remember that always.
Good point.
On that note…first advice..step back and reflect…. If possible find yourself a moral compass. He or she will be that person in or outside of the company who will tell it to you straight, whether you like it or not!!!…you will need that if you’re to overcome this difficult situation appropriately.
Second piece of advice…STOP asking and STOP begging your manage… as a MANAGER it is your job to direct him, by clearly stating what it is you want, why you want it and the implications (employment wise) if it is not supported. In a nut shell TAKE CHARGE..
to do that you need research all the circumstances and be very clear that you know what you can realistically do within disciplinary process and what you can’t. That means you need to be conversant with the staff handbook/manual, you also need to set up an URGENT meeting with HR, to discuss the case and be firm that you need options to contain the situation.
Once you’re clear about the staffing procedures, you need to confront this woman’s behaviour within the formal disciplinary process… But only if you are secure in the knowledge that you have the FULL support of HR and your manager…if not reread my last bullet point advice and ACT!!! What you should be doing in the mean time is recording her behaviour, logging times context and the comments made. (this is vital as you will need to present this to HR, as part of your initial discussion with them). Please do NOT involve the police at this stage..why!!? because you will end up looking like a damn fool and you diminish your position still further with her and your other colleagues.
What HR if they are any good will advise you to do is this......to send her a nice carefully worded letter reminding her of company policy about inappropriate use of telephones for personal use. My first port of call however would be to MENTION this in the next team meeting..so you have properly warned people..
Also make her aware of the companies policy on threatening behaviours. Key words ‘advise’ and ‘remind’ DO NOT ACCUSE her, do not make any allegations you cannot prove 100% beyond doubt… Beyond doubt means in accordance to the laws of the land, not what you think, not what you felt happened, it means what you can legitimately prove, otherwise you will I promise you, be made to look a fool later on down the line..
As the manager you, must not react to her behaviour when it happens, you need to respond, key word RESPOND once you have made sense of the issues, discussed it and then identified clearly the work issues you want to address… at that point a nice memo requesting her presence is required/or better still it should be raised and noted in the supervision record as a CONCERN.. Key word concern..
You should simultanuosly keep raising her conduct as a CONCERN to your manager, and if he does not do supervision records..you MUST email him confirming your discussion and the fact that you have raised these concerns.. you should tag these emails to ensure it was received and read by him…and keep a copy of the EVIDENCE..
What you should have build up if you do you job properly is a weight of evidence to support a lack of support, should you have a case of harassment brought against you, or caperbility.. Or more importantly you will have a paper trail demonstrating how often you have raised concerns with this woman…this will lend weight to any disciplinary should it come down to that… I suspect however she will catch on after a bit and cool her heels, if she doesn’t then you will be able to get rid.. its called win win scenario!!!
Last point there are no short cuts or easy options, if you fail to do this work you will be the one who will utimately pay the professionally price for such laziness, so bare that in mind ok!!!
K..
Last edited on Monday July 17th, 2006 18:12 by yogi
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Wednesday July 12th, 2006 22:00 |
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Yogi: In the light of your last post....My advice is this..
You should be pushing for HR to take the next step and invoke disciplinary proccedures, its sounds to me that you have enough to begin procedures in line with caperbility and I would have thought misconduct. At least they should have invoked first stage procedures by now..quite frankly I'm shocked this hasn't already happened?
However it sounds to me that it may be a toss up between who is the more incompetent HR or this woman... Given that scenario I sadly have to agree with you its TIME to move on, before they destroy not only your reputation, but your ability to work... It sounds to me that you've done more than enough to take it to the next stage..However their does appear to be the will or the inclination to do the right thing...
I know sadly that in this context it is just too dangerous to remain in such a situation? My best advice if HR or your managers are not prepared to grow a pair of balls, is that you move on to the next job...
Good luck!!
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Backatya
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Posted: Thursday July 13th, 2006 12:15 |
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Yogi
Does your position as 'Manager' not give you authority to take appropriate displinary action? What does the organisation's Disciplinary Procedures say?
Normally the role of 'Manager' indicates that one has certain authority to take action against those whom one managers when their conduct warrants it, so I can't quite understand why nothing can be done unless HR and your line manager does it. Where does your authority over the staff you manage lie? Or is your role really as a 'Supervisor' to this woman.
The set up in that organisation sounds wholly unsatisfactory to me as far as supporting you role is concerned.
Respect
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Sticks and stones may break my bones but names..........will always get YOU a thump in ya dyaamn 'ead.
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yogi
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Posted: Thursday July 13th, 2006 19:46 |
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Backatya wrote: Yogi
Does your position as 'Manager' not give you authority to take appropriate displinary action? What does the organisation's Disciplinary Procedures say?
Normally the role of 'Manager' indicates that one has certain authority to take action against those whom one managers when their conduct warrants it, so I can't quite understand why nothing can be done unless HR and your line manager does it. Where does your authority over the staff you manage lie? Or is your role really as a 'Supervisor' to this woman.
The set up in that organisation sounds wholly unsatisfactory to me as far as supporting you role is concerned.
Respect
Last edited on Monday July 17th, 2006 18:13 by yogi
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Thursday July 13th, 2006 19:49 |
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| Yogi: If what you have said it now a fact...I think you might have a case for contructive dismissal... If you were fORCED to resign for the reasons you gave... I would consult either the union or an Employment lawyer..
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Backatya
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Posted: Friday July 14th, 2006 12:51 |
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yogi wrote: Hi; Do you think if it was that easy i would be here asking for advice? I would have booted her out long time ago if it was down to me. This is the public sector we are talking not private and so much democracy involved it makes your head spin. No one wants to stick thier neck out just incase she brings a racist case against them like she has done in the past. I am her manager not her supervisor but with all the red tape involed with dismissing someone my hands are tied to be honest. they have olny just started to take the matter seriously this week after I resigned from being her manger. Thanks for you input but getting rid of her ain't that easy. warning letters need to be written then investigators come in an interview the managers then a whole lot of other stuff. You get the drift. A warning letter will be sent to her next week based on her appauling behaviour.
Yogi
I was not necessarily talking about 'dismissal' I said 'appropriate disciplinary action', meaning the type of action (maybe dismissal ultimately if it comes to that) that should be available to any manager under any organisation's (public sector or not) disciplinary procedures. I was wondering if the disciplinary procedures of your organisation allowed you any leeway to take action (e.g. first warning, written warning, etc. etc.) against this woman so that the process to rectify her behaviour steps up in seriousness if her behaviour continues. I note you say a warning letter will be sent to her next week, but why has this not happened until now? Or is it that you didn't have the authority to do it and could only rely on your manager or HR to instigate the 'warning lett stage? Also, I don't quite understand what you mean by 'resigned from being her manager'. Do you mean you have resigned your position and no longer work for the organisation? Or have you ask to be removed (and been granted) from being a Manager to a less senior role? How can she bring a 'racist case' against the organisation? You say she calls her friends and curses you to the core with them listening. With that behviour how is she going to claim racist action against her by you, her manager, taking action against such behaviour. If you don't mind me asking, what kind of public sector organisation do you work for? Local Authority, Health what? It's one strange organisation by the sound of it. Respect
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yogi
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Posted: Friday July 14th, 2006 14:01 |
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Backatya wrote: yogi wrote: I was not necessarily talking about 'dismissal' I said 'appropriate disciplinary action', meaning the type of action (maybe dismissal ultimately if it comes to that) that should be available to any manager under any organisation's (public sector or not) disciplinary procedures. I was wondering if the disciplinary procedures of your organisation allowed you any leeway to take action (e.g. first warning, written warning, etc. etc.) against this woman so that the process to rectify her behaviour steps up in seriousness if her behaviour continues. I note you say a warning letter will be sent to her next week, but why has this not happened until now? Or is it that you didn't have the authority to do it and could only rely on your manager or HR to instigate the 'warning lett stage? Also, I don't quite understand what you mean by 'resigned from being her manager'. Do you mean you have resigned your position and no longer work for the organisation? Or have you ask to be removed (and been granted) from being a Manager to a less senior role? How can she bring a 'racist case' against the organisation? You say she calls her friends and curses you to the core with them listening. With that behviour how is she going to claim racist action against her by you, her manager, taking action against such behaviour. If you don't mind me asking, what kind of public sector organisation do you work for? Local Authority, Health what? It's one strange organisation by the sound of it. Last edited on Monday July 17th, 2006 18:14 by yogi
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FredB
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Posted: Saturday July 15th, 2006 15:37 |
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@Yogi. Interesting and no uncommon problem. Read Kunjufu's and Backatya's post as well. Can I say I totally agree with Kunjufu's assessment and I have managed for a long time and taught people how to as well. The stories of useless HR departments are so many that it is not even worth repeating.
It is not even about procedures but politics of support and it is clear to me that you are not being given support which leaves you in a positio when the very same organisation can turn around and scapegoat you. Seen black managers fall for handling staff who should have been fired long time ago.
I am also concerned in regards to Backatya's point because if you have to look for procedures rather than they be recommended to you as part of the wider support your managers should give you and you have a right to expect, you could find yourself the brownmeat in a white sandwich.
Peace.
FB
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yogi
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Posted: Sunday July 16th, 2006 06:19 |
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Last edited on Monday July 17th, 2006 18:13 by yogi
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Kunjufu
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Posted: Sunday July 16th, 2006 09:02 |
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| Yogi: Forgive me but I don't think it is possible for a Manager to take out a grievance against a subordinate...I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it would need to be either disciplinary or bust....Further there is no doubt in my mind that you were set up with this woman because you were BLACK, So if anything you ought to be taking a grieavance out on your lazy managers..
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Posted: Sunday July 16th, 2006 10:51 |
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@Yogi..Ditto Kunjufu's point about you taking out a grieveance via procedures. You are going to have to counsell her or activate disciplinary proceedings.
Had no idea this was a black woman. Must have missed that. Well makes it even more transparent. Yep white people keeping arms distance of something messy..Sounds about right.
By the way she called you a whore under her breathe that is in breach of equal opportunities practice and law. She could not get away with that if she was a male and the law is actually gender nutrual. Had a mature student, black woman call me a 'coconut' because I don't sell grades or allow students to flirt with me to improve their grade average. She wanted an A and she simply was not good enough. Same thing, white colleagues ran and hid and I had to deal with it as if it was some personal business and nothing to do with my role and contract...
FB
Last edited on Sunday July 16th, 2006 10:57 by FredB
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yogi
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Posted: Sunday July 16th, 2006 16:50 |
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I have deleted the original post because I was not too comfortable have so much info on the web regarding this issue.
Thx for your help everyone.Will keep you updated.
Yogi
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MarcusGarveyLives
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Posted: Monday July 17th, 2006 00:26 |
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Sadly, I had guessed what was going on - the clue was in the fact that the manager heard the subordinate "cussing" her - not something Europeans are usually too skilled in.
The tactic of asking another African to try and 'manage' an unmanageable an / or inept and / or passive aggressive African when Eurpoeans - frequently with greater qualifications, experience or authority - have falied to do so is one that I have come across before.
This is an interesting case. Among other things, it would be interesting to know what effect this episode has had on the management role performed by the person who started the thread.
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