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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Monday June 26th, 2006 17:11 |
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For those who don't remember my previous thread here, I started a thread about a family member who is undergoing a marriage separation from his wife. You can read about those details here: http://www.blackchat.co.uk/theblackforum/forum16/22012.html
I guess you can say that this is part 2, because come to find out he has been talking to this one lady-friend who is far more African-conscious than his wife. My cousin became interested in African literature after hearing me and my aunt discussing certain topics at family gatherings, and since has been asking me for books to read and we would sit on the phone and discuss them. My family is comprised of mostly moderately strict Methodists (AME Zion), yet, my cousin and I stepped away from the church some time ago.
Here is where the problem lies, my cousin's wife is not very knowledgeable about the Bible or religion, but is brainwashed that Jesus is salvation for Black people. My cousin bitterly disagrees. She has forced him into attending church and its functions, which the men here know how a Black woman can bend the will of a man. His wife thinks their problems can be solved with Jesus, and it has only pushed my cousin so far away that he has found comfort in another woman. Most of the progressive socio-political, intellectual, cultural, and historical elements of being African is ignored by his Christian wife, and so it is comforting for him to be able to freely express himself with a woman besides always talking to me about things (quite understandably). He told me himself that he wants to be able to talk to his wife openly about his issues with religion, but she automatically writes it off as "the devil's work" taking control of his mind.
After expressing that he wants a separation to re-evaluate the marriage, she then suggests marriage counseling. I thought it was a great idea and so did he, but she insisted the counsel be administered by the church. He called me after their session fuming because he anticipated everything the Bible-thumping counselor would say almost verbatim, because we used to be brainwashed in the church as well...thus, easy to predict. Basically, my cousin felt cornered because his wife is telling him he's letting the devil in their house, and now the only voice that was supposed to be of moderation was skewed in favor of Jeeezus.
In his wife's defense, she said that although she was not raised in a religious family, she wanted that "closeness with God". She saw how religious my family is, and so thought her marriage would be the same way. What is sad to me is that too often Christians also will reject much about their own history because the Bible requires them to do so. Therefore, she has an aversion to much of the things that another woman is feeding to her husband (and he happily accepts).
Basically, I don't know what to tell my cousin. He actually seems happy when talking to the other woman because she is actually proactive in Africana studies and reading and refers books to him and actually sharpens his mind with discussion and debate. I can tell that it stimulates him, as it does for me when a woman can be your intellectual complement. However, this stimulation has turned into extramarital desire, which no one other than me and him knows about.
People in my family keep urging me to convince my cousin to mend his marriage given we are so close. However, he has expressed that he isn't even sure that he wants to. Do I just support him in whatever decisions he makes, or should I try convincing him to mend his marriage? Whatever you think, please explain...
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Incognito
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Posted: Monday June 26th, 2006 17:35 |
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| It's chalk and cheese...extremely detrimental for the children as they'll both want to raise them in their own way. Still, better than raising them like greys but either way........a' better she gwaan! Last edited on Monday June 26th, 2006 17:36 by Incognito
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liberiangirl
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Posted: Monday June 26th, 2006 17:36 |
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Considering the dire state our people are in, first and foremost I think it is important for any black family to be african concious. If any man I was with was behaving and thinking like some coon, I would leave him on the spot.
So to be honest Shemsi, I would tell him to leave her. Not only does it seem like they are not on the same level intellectually, it is obvious that there were no deep discussions on each other's believes before they got married. It was stupid of the wife to assume that because his family was religious therefore he must be religious too. Did she even bother to ask him?
I think it is unfair to your cousin to have a bible shoved down his throat in desparation to make a marriage work. All things concerning beliefs should have been established and discussed before marriage, so to try to convert your husband now as if he is some little child is really just foolish, as its a bit too late for that now.
Considering that nothing in the world irritates me more than a bible thumper, maybe I am being rather biased, but I am glad your cousin has found someone who he can connect with mentally, and his wife does not seem to be this person. The marriage seems like it has been falling into shambles for a while now, so i think its best to let it go. I strongly believe that no one should have to sacrifice their beliefs simply to make a relationship work. If his heart is not into God then there is nothing the wife can do about that.
Btw do they have kids?
Last edited on Monday June 26th, 2006 17:41 by liberiangirl
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Incognito
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Posted: Monday June 26th, 2006 17:42 |
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liberiangirl - well said and even worse if one half sat around pretending to be african concious. Can you imagine being African concious man and on the birth of your first son with your 'frican concious' wife she wants to name him Tyreese or something 
Chalk and chEese I tell you. next she'll be feeding the yoots bacon
Last edited on Monday June 26th, 2006 17:43 by Incognito
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liberiangirl
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Posted: Monday June 26th, 2006 17:52 |
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Incognito wrote: liberiangirl - well said and even worse if one half sat around pretending to be african concious. Can you imagine being African concious man and on the birth of your first son with your 'frican concious' wife she wants to name him Tyreese or something
Chalk and chEese I tell you. next she'll be feeding the yoots bacon
LOL. I mean there is nothing wrong with being religious but to let religion blind you to the point where you dont have the best interest of black people in mind is really just stupid. And for someone to have so little disregard for your beliefs that they feel the need to drag you to church like some child is rather insulting and if it were me, I would seriously be offended. I am sorry, but I could not be with someone like that.
If they dont have the same beliefs then it is obvious that neither of them can be truly intimate, so what is the point of staying married just for marriages sake?
Last edited on Monday June 26th, 2006 17:54 by liberiangirl
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Monday June 26th, 2006 17:55 |
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@ liberiangirl
So you are saying just let him be and support whatever his decisions may be?
And yes, they have one child together.
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liberiangirl
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Posted: Monday June 26th, 2006 18:01 |
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Shemsi en Tehuti wrote:
So you are saying just let him be and support whatever his decisions may be?
And yes, they have one child together.
Shemsi, yes. From what you have been saying your cousin has been pushing for divorce a while now, and his wife just seems like she is trying to hold on for dear life. He obviously has lost touch with his wife intimately, and sometimes in marriages that can be redeemed. But from the situation you presented to us now, I dont think that intimacy is retrivable, nor he should he have to pay the price(sacrificing his beliefs) to retrieve that closeness or intimacy. From what I am seeing this marriage is heading for serious trouble, as he seems on the brink of having an affair, so its best to just lock it off now.
And as for the child, I dont think in any marriage is it best to stay together simply for the child's sake because the child will be the one to witness the many conflicts and disagreements, and that can be just as damaging.
I just hope that they can end the marriage on good terms and that there are no issues with custody.
Last edited on Monday June 26th, 2006 18:05 by liberiangirl
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The Watcher
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Posted: Monday June 26th, 2006 18:37 |
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| Can you be supposedly conscious while talking about leaving your wife and child for somebody you can get on with? *squints eyes*
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Saida.M
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Posted: Monday June 26th, 2006 19:23 |
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Shemsi en Tehuti wrote: What is sad to me is that too often Christians also will reject much about their own history because the Bible requires them to do so.
Where in the bible does it say you have to reject your history?
Anyway I'm sure this can be solved if they approach it maturely. I can't see how his Africaness cannot live with her Christianity. Surely they both know where it originated - if not he should be allowed to teach her what he knows just as she does to him. They'll soon find they may have common ground. It's only if she is coming with the whiteman's point of view regarding the bible, there may be difficulties. But they can get over that too - if they allow it.
He seems all to ready to give up at the drop of the hat if you ask me which makes me wonder if he really cares about her at all. What's he doing running to you and this other woman before he talks to his wife?
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Saida.M
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Posted: Monday June 26th, 2006 19:36 |
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And if she is strict about her Christianity she will know that divorce is not on the cards - she won't be able to re-marry for example. So I think she'd do all she could to avoid that - which makes me think that maybe he has not been putting it strongly enough to her how much his Africanness means to him. Having said that whenever someone discovers something new they are usually full of fervour. I think once he settles more into his 'beliefs' even though he would still have strong feelings, I should think that even he would understand it's not worth giving up his African wife over it.
I sincerely hope this other woman whoose so into Africanness isn't a bluefoot.
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Monday June 26th, 2006 19:59 |
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athaba wrote: Shemsi en Tehuti wrote: What is sad to me is that too often Christians also will reject much about their own history because the Bible requires them to do so.
Where in the bible does it say you have to reject your history?
It isn't written explicitly, but since the "good news" starts in the Roman empire after the Black civilizations were conquerred, the message inherently favors the White perspective. Furthermore, the whole nonsense about Jews being enslaved for 400 years in Kemet creates an automatic aversion to learning about it by most Black Christians in the States. That has been all the more frustrating for my cousin.
athaba wrote: Anyway I'm sure this can be solved if they approach it maturely. I can't see how his Africaness cannot live with her Christianity. Surely they both know where it originated - if not he should be allowed to teach her what he knows just as she does to him. They'll soon find they may have common ground. It's only if she is coming with the whiteman's point of view regarding the bible, there may be difficulties. But they can get over that too - if they allow it.
How can you present the Bible from the blackman's point of view while maintaining integrity, when it is certainly a white document of documents?
athaba wrote: He seems all to ready to give up at the drop of the hat if you ask me which makes me wonder if he really cares about her at all. What's he doing running to you and this other woman before he talks to his wife?
He as been trying to talk to his wife. As I referred in my previous post on this, they have trouble even communicating the simplest things to each other. Then, when she tries to nullify his thoughts by raising up the Bible, it only fetters their communication even more.
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Shemsi en Tehuti
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Posted: Monday June 26th, 2006 20:01 |
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athaba wrote: And if she is strict about her Christianity she will know that divorce is not on the cards - she won't be able to re-marry for example. So I think she'd do all she could to avoid that - which makes me think that maybe he has not been putting it strongly enough to her how much his Africanness means to him. Having said that whenever someone discovers something new they are usually full of fervour. I think once he settles more into his 'beliefs' even though he would still have strong feelings, I should think that even he would understand it's not worth giving up his African wife over it.
I sincerely hope this other woman whoose so into Africanness isn't a bluefoot.
That's one thing frustrating to my cousin. He thought he could talk to her about it, but when he did, she became even more adamant on her Jesus kick. She wasn't even that religious before, but now her husband and marriage needs saving with Jesus.
Oh yeah, and the other woman is not a bluefoot.
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Posted: Monday June 26th, 2006 20:07 |
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DrunkMonkey wrote: Can you be supposedly conscious while talking about leaving your wife and child for somebody you can get on with? *squints eyes*
DM, I was in Gambia talking to this conscious brotha about birds, bees and Africa..in some detail...he left me highly impressed labrishing with his daughter. Then I asked him how many children he has......16...guess he's still looking the right woman/wife.
As the saying goes, you think you're bringing them up but it's them pulling you down. Naturally the perspective of up and down is in the eye of the beholder - In shemsi's cousins case, at least the wife isn't looking a daddy on the side.
As the conscious Bob Marley put it, the reason why he loved Rita so much because she loved all of his children outside as her own. Conscious woman dat!
Wife? That's the whole point, she obviously is not - she's married to Jesus and just wants a father for her children.
Last edited on Monday June 26th, 2006 20:11 by Incognito
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liberiangirl
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Posted: Monday June 26th, 2006 20:24 |
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Sorry athaba but I disagree. If a couple has conflicting belief systems then what kind of message is that going to send to the child, and what are they supposed to teach the child to believe?? From my experience unless one of the spouses agree to hold the other's beliefs as dominate in the household , then it cannot work.
To me it doesnt seem like he is "running away from his wife"as you put it, its seems as if through the years they have grown apart and their conflicting beliefs systems makes it difficult to communicate. Not only has this man found peace in his new found africaness, it is clear that this man has issues with religion in general and has distanced himself from the church, which i think is what his wife really has problems with.
And if this woman is really as religious as Shemsi makes her out to be, then from my experience in dealing with extreme religious types it is very difficult to get your point across, especially if you are not perfectly in step with their beliefs. Usually extreme religious types are the least open to compromise as they have the opinion that their beliefs are absolute and I can see this is exactly what is going on in this situation. She is only willing to go to marriage counseling within the church as another way to try to get this man to find god. From what I got the wife is not trying to compromise on any level, she is trying to "convert" him as a means of saving their marriage. Should the man force himself to believe in God, simply to appease his wife?Beliefs are the thing that defines one most inner being, should anyone sacrifice that for the sake of another? If he does that then the marriage may be saved, but i doubt that he will ever be truly satisfied or content. And if he is not happy then what is the point of being in a marriage?
Can you be supposedly conscious while talking about leaving your wife and child for somebody you can get on with? *squints eyes*
Wha? It doesnt seem like that at all. From what shemsi said he and this woman are not in a relationship nor have they ever been sexually intimate, although it may come to that point. He isnt leaving her for anyone, and i think that if you read the other thread you would see that this man has obviously been thinking about divorce for a while, possibly long before he met this other woman. Frankly I dont think that the problems in his marriage have much to do with his new beliefs systems, as it seems as if they have been having problems long before this, I think this has just added fuel to the fire.
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liberiangirl
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Posted: Monday June 26th, 2006 20:30 |
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Shemsi en Tehuti wrote:
That's one thing frustrating to my cousin. He thought he could talk to her about it, but when he did, she became even more adamant on her Jesus kick. She wasn't even that religious before, but now her husband and marriage needs saving with Jesus.
So on top of being a bible thumper she is a hyprocrite as well? LOl. Naw, this woman is just desparate to use any means to save their marriage, it seems as if she doesnt know how to let go.
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Incognito
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Posted: Monday June 26th, 2006 20:37 |
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In a two bull situation it's about who's willing to conform to who's way. As long as they can both defend and back up their talk then everbody should be able to get on with their lives. It does sound like there room for reconciliation on this one though...maybe send a pm to KamKam for some advice
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Posted: Monday June 26th, 2006 21:18 |
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Seems to me like your cousin has already emotionally detached himself from the marriage and I don't think finding new interests has much to do with it, fact is they speak different languages i.e. can't communicate with each other. Relationships can perfectly work with two people having different interests as long as each one shows a healthy interest and respect to the others interest, i even know of a couple who are very religious people but the wife is Christian and the husband Muslim, to my knowledge there has never been any sort of conflict because of it.
If saving the marriage means that much to her i would think your cousin should be able to convince her to try a different councilor if that is also what he wants (which i don't believe it is). If she says no to it, then the marriage obviously isn't worth saving and might as well try to part in good terms.
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Posted: Tuesday June 27th, 2006 09:29 |
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Shemsi - I can tell you of a similar case where the marriage was based on different values. When it clearly wasn't working out the 'husband' decided to end it but was willing to stay resident to raise the children as they have always been his priority - theory being the woman is not his wife so let's see how she fairs as his cohabiting babymother - I mean who knows, she might be ready for marriage when her children are teenagers or just before the children are old enough to marry themselves.
Well on hearing she was being divorced the 'wife' took the opportunity to try and clean up as in taking custody, taking the house and giving her children a daddy on the side while probably sucking off his wages via the CSA if he didn't bow to girl power. Far from children first it was basically anything to get herself out of her cooking and cleaning nightmare - not surprising the wife will tell you a different story and spent the next few months gathering evidence to sell out the husband and her children to babylon. He said it was like being married to a grey...I mean what a time to find out.
For all the apparent abuse the wife was suffering (cooking and cleaning in girl power terms) it was still worth the prize of the gates
Last edited on Tuesday June 27th, 2006 10:32 by Incognito
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Posted: Friday June 30th, 2006 15:27 |
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I think it's more their personalities than the beliefs, going only by what you say. Poeple of different beliefs marry all the time and stay married. There seems to be a bigger issue here. It seems that maybe your cousin(and possibly his wife) didn't really know themselves when they got married, and didn't/don't really know each other. It also seems that they are not trying to get to know each other, especially her(strictly going by what you say) Everyone has that little voice, but many times we don't listen. This could go either way.
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Posted: Friday June 30th, 2006 16:17 |
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There is a saying in my country by women that goes like this"Ngai nabala nangai Jesus" It roughly translate as "i am married to Jesus"....It used to confuse me when i was little...how can you marry Jesus when he is your LORD and SAVIOUR?
Some black people just can't function without religion....they rather lose everything and call everyone close to them demons, satan posesed etc rather than listen to any reason. Its obvious that she is not willing to be open minded about any of his interests......the church actually tells you to NOT listen to others, and that include your partner IF the conversation dares to question the Bible. How many times have i been called TOO AFRICAN by my religious cousin....she even said my ideas were good, but i needed to calm down a bit...but she sees nothing wrong with telling you that everything she has is because of Jesus blahh blahhh
She is just stuck in her own way...counseling is about 2 people, so how can she just decide that her minister is the only counselor suitable for their marriage? what happened to consulting and comunicating with your other half?
Having said that, your cousin needs to take this slowly and not rush in his decision. If his not careful, he will make the same mistake that she is making.....selfishly thinking me..me...me
Perhaps they need a trial separation and PROFESIONAL counseling with a black counselor.
But from what i can grasp here, it seems these 2 hardly knew each other from the begining....and they are reaping the fruit of basing marriage on fickle attractions rather than having common interests and looking outwards towards the same direction.
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Posted: Friday June 30th, 2006 17:05 |
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I hope they can come to some kind of agreement as marriage is something to be taken seriously. I know a few couples like that but they've managed to agree to disagree.
However if push comes to shove it would be better if they both called it a day and found the person they want.
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Posted: Friday June 30th, 2006 17:25 |
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